Newsvine
  • Welcome
  • Help
  • Report Bug
  • Conversation Tracker
  • Your Column
  • Replies
  • Friends
Type Comments Since You Last CheckedArticle Source Last Checked Stop Tracking All Clear Tracking All
Advertise | AdChoices
Log In | Register
Close the Login Panel
Existing users log in below. New users please register for a free account.

New Users:

Existing Users:

E-Mail:
Password:
Forgot Password?
Please enter the e-mail address or domain name you registered with:
E-Mail/Domain:
Back to Login
Log Out
  • Top News
  • Local News
  • World
  • U.S.
  • Sports
  • Politics
  • Tech
  • Entertainment
  • Science
  • Business
  • Health
  • Odd News
  • More
    • Arts
    • Education
    • Environment
    • Fashion
    • History
    • Home & Garden
    • Not News
    • Religion
    • Travel
What is Newsvine?

Updated continuously by citizens like you, Newsvine is an instant reflection of what the world is talking about at any given moment.

Get a Free Account
Help
Fun Stuff
  • Your Clippings
  • Leaderboard
  • E-Mail Alerts
  • Top of the Vine
  • Newsvine Live
  • Newsvine Archives
  • The Greenhouse
  • Recommended Articles
  • Wall of Vineness
Put a Seed Newsvine link on your own site

Marriage eludes high-achieving black women

Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:31 AM EDT
education, obama, white-house, barack-obama, women, only-on-msnbc-com, marriage, black, race, brad-paisley, first-lady-michelle-obama, educated, sexploration----, east-room, alison-krauss, childless, epamatthew-cavanaugh
msnbc.com News — Brian Alexander, msnbc.com - Only on msnbc.com

epa01802026 US President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama arrive at an event celebrating country music in the East Room of the White House in Washington DC, USA on 21 July 2009. Artists scheduled to perform included Charley Pride, Brad Paisley and Alison Krauss and Union Station. EPA/MATTHEW CAVANAUGH / POOL

Advertise | AdChoices

— Michelle Obama may have become an archetypal African-American female success story — law career, strong marriage, happy children — but the reality is often very different for other highly educated black women.

They face a series of challenges in navigating education, career, marriage and child-bearing, dilemmas that often leave them single and childless even when they’d prefer marriage and family, according to a research study recently presented at the American Sociological Society’s annual meeting in San Francisco.

Yale researchers Natalie Nitsche and Hannah Brueckner argued that “marriage chances for highly educated black women have declined over time relative to white women.” Women of both races with postgraduate educations “face particularly hard choices between career and motherhood,” they said, “but especially in the absence of a reliable partner.”

And there’s the rub. As noted in a recent Sexploration column, contrary to old media reports, most educated, professional women who want to marry can and do marry. But the picture is less bright for high-achieving black women because “marriage markets” for them have deteriorated to the point that many remain unmarried, the researchers found. Since these women also feel pressured not to become single mothers, they often go childless as well, the researchers found.

In the study, Nitsche and Brueckner used data from the U.S. Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey of 50,000 households dating back to the 1970s to tease out data points on race, gender, education, marriage and fertility.

Among black women with postgraduate educations born between 1956 and 1960, the median age at which they gave birth for the first time was 34 years old. This was about the same as it was for white women in the same demographic. But once white women reached their 30s, many more of them did give birth, often more than once. Many black women did not. The rate of childlessness among this group of black women rose from 30 percent for those born between 1950 and 1955, to 45 percent for those born between 1956 and 1960.

The rate of childlessness does moderate somewhat in highly educated black women born between 1961 and 1970. In this group, 38 percent have remained childless.

Beyond the personal interests of individual women, the trend is significant because “in terms of American society, this is one additional obstacle” to the broadening of the black middle class, Brueckner said. Fewer highly educated black people having children means that they cannot pass on those advantages and knowledge.”

This defeats the goal of affirmative action, argue some demographers. The idea behind assuring that blacks had access to higher education and graduate school was that after a generation or so, African-Americans would reach a kind of achievement parity after generations of suffering educational and career restriction. But if black women, who comprise 71 percent of black graduate students, according to the census data, do not have children, the rate of achievement reaches a kind of familial dead end.

Another Yale sociologist, Averil Clarke, who has written a soon-to-be-published book called “Love Inequality: Black Women, College Degrees, and the Family We Can’t Have,” sees the impact of this demographic trend in a slightly different, and more romantic, light. It’s not about passing on economic and educational advantages, though these concerns are valid, she said. It’s about love.

“I think this inequality can be construed around outcomes in love,” she said. “We are very caught up right now in [the controversy] over gay marriage. Well, what are we arguing about? Whether people can have these kinds of emotionally satisfying experiences and if not, if that is unequal.” She also believes that these demographic facts, and the reasons for them, constrain the sexuality of some African-American women. She has found that many more are celibate than are white women with similar education levels. “So for me it matters because love matters.”

Declining marriage chances
One big reason why these women remained childless is, as one might expect, that they go unmarried, experts say. Among highly educated women of both races, about 22 percent between the ages of 20 and 45 were single in the 1970s. But then that number diverged. It has remained the same for white women, but now 38 percent of black women have never been married.

“Their marriage chances have declined,” Brueckner explained. “This may sound trivial but one reason is that they outnumber men in this education group.” The disparity in education is important because Americans have a strong tendency to marry those with equal levels of education, a trend that has only grown stronger since World War II. “So since there are fewer men with the same education,” Brueckner continued, “you either have to find another group you can marry or you are out of luck. You have nowhere to go.”

Highly educated black men tend to “outmarry” (marry outside race, religion or ethnicity) at a higher rate than black women, researchers say. Think of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates or Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Both married white women.

Black women are either much more reluctant to marry outside their race, or do not have the opportunity to do so. The answer is both, Clarke said.

In interviews with a large number of black women, she found that community pressures on black women to marry black men can be more intense than the reverse.

“A greater negative reaction falls on them,” Clarke said. “Some women in my sample told stories of African-American men on college campuses getting upset if they dated outside the race. There seems to be a sense of some policing of women’s sexuality. I think women are more controlled by these community and family pressures around who they should date. Men have greater freedom.”

But it may also be true that even highly educated black women who are willing and able to pursue a relationship with a man of another race won’t have the opportunity. A sociological line of inquiry called “exchange theory” suggests that in the piggy bank of goods each of us brings to a possible relationship — money, smarts, sense of humor, looks, family background, education, gender — African heritage is devalued compared with European or Asian heritage. African-American females, even with lots of education, do not fetch as much “value” in the marriage market.

That may be a cold way to look at love, romance, and sex, but studies dating back to the 1980s support it.

Of course if highly educated black women felt free to have children outside of marriage, they could still have a family. When some white women make that choice it is often seen as a kind of liberal empowerment.

But according to Clarke, black women are concerned about looking "ghetto." Public interpretation of our actions matter for everyone, but especially for black women, Clarke explained. “When it comes to the issue of black women and should or should they not make a choice to have a child alone, these women are very much aware that the decision to do it makes people question their class status. We associate single unwed child bearing with poor African-American women.”

Not all women who remain unmarried and childless are unhappy about it. But for a set of sometimes complex social reasons, some high-achieving black women find themselves disappointed. “That this is something being denied to people is important in and of itself,” Clarke said.

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Back To Top | Front Page

Published to:

  • Brian Alexander's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: none
  • Regions: none
  • Public Discussion (435)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 ... 5
Anywho-1137870

Now the story is a black woman doesn't have as much "value" as other women from European or Asian heritages. It does not surprise me that yet another study has somehow come to a grim conclusion pertaining to blacks. This is classic BS.

  • 9 votes
#1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:29 AM EDT
WhoCares-1274528

Seriously, Brian Alexander! This article is BS! Who cares about color? Oh the media does.

I would like to take time now and thank the media for remind me every day that the US President is a black man. I think the world would be a better place if articles like this were never posted.

  • 9 votes
#1.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:04 AM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

African-American females, even with lots of education, do not fetch as much "value" in the marriage market.

And just who is deciding this 'value' with such sweeping statements? Racism is obviously alive and well and strutting proudly. What gives Black women this 'lesser value' in spite of their obvious attributes? Their colour? mmmmm...:o(

It does not surprise me that yet another study has somehow come to a grim conclusion pertaining to blacks.

Indeed!

Well as one Black woman who could have married 10 times over when I was younger, and got three proposals between 2007 and 2009, from all sections of the ethnic divide, perhaps someone somewhere needs to remove their assumptions and blinkers.

There are definitely cultural pressures around minority women which might prevent some of them finding the men of their choice, but what really keeps many women from marrying are:

1. Their own unrealistic expectations.

2. Their idealistic search for perfection.

3. Their inherent prejudices.

4. Their stereotypic assumptions about men in general, and Black men, in particular.

5. An emphasis on the self instead of on others.

6. Above all, their own individual naked fears!

When one keeps a positive open, flexible mind, is willing to compromise, allows their relationships to unfold instead of trying to control them and knows what one really wants from a potential partner while accepting that person as they are, it is surprising how easily one finds it!

  • 11 votes
#1.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:27 AM EDT
bsbfankaren

On the one hand, at least we can say this is not yet another study telling Black people how stupid we are, and that we can't be educated. No, instead we have an article that says that if we are and are female, we have less of a chance of marriage.

It has been clear for decades now that there are more Black women attaining higher education than Black men, so wouldn't it then stand to reason that unless a Black woman wanted to marry down, she would have less of an opportunity to marry within her race? And when I say marrying down, there is also the problem of men who have not achieved the same levels of education who feel the need to tear a woman down who has!

I think that this is a much more complicated issue than a short article can even begin to address, but I also think it is a conversation that needs to be had.

  • 8 votes
#1.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:34 AM EDT
serious

bsbfrankaren, it isn't that just more black women are earning higher degrees - more women of all stripes are earning higher degrees.

The student composititions at most colleges are 60% female or more. Only military academies and engineering schools are less than 50% female.

Maybe this recession, hitting male-dominated prfessions like construction, will reverse this trend, but I'm not holding my breath.

  • 5 votes
#1.4 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
kb in nc

bs franken--

Also think about the term 'marrying down.' Just because someone has a degree doesn't make you above them.

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:26 AM EDT
ROY WILSON-336103

By giving in to black male pressure to not date outside their race, they are limiting their options, since highly educated black females outnumber their black male counterparts by about 2.5 to 1.

It seems the black males want it both ways - the option to marry outside their race, but not allow black females the same option.

Simple solution - stop being subjected to this form of self imposed "bondage".

  • 9 votes
#1.6 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:30 AM EDT
greencomet

it is not as simple as black males putting the pressure on. There is intense "communal" pressure against AA women dating outside their race. Regardless of how independant all of us are, we still have to go home to families that frown upon anything that they don't deem appropriate etc. That goes both ways actually, because as more AA women date outside their race, their partners have do deal with family pressure as well.

  • 4 votes
#1.7 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:39 AM EDT
ROY WILSON-336103

It's interesting how many people are hung up on the concept of "color", especially since the color of a person's skin is nothing more than a reflection of the amount of melanin that their ancestors developed as a protection for appropriate levels of Vitamin D and UV rays that their bodies should absorb.

greencomet

As a white male who married a black female, I agree with you to a certain extent, but this is only a problem if you allow it to control your life. The initial reaction may be negative, but this problem recedes rapidly.

  • 2 votes
#1.8 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:41 AM EDT
bsbfankaren

Actually, serious, I read a story that was taken from Census info that clearly stated that there were more Black women in graduate school in White women, although there are more women overall.

And kb in nc, I knew I was setting my self up when I used that particular terminology, but I don't know how I become "franken"! Anyway, take from my statement what you wish!

And Roy Wilson, it is not just Black male pressure not to date outside of our race, it is just simply harder for Black women to do so overall. There can be a stigma attached to dating a Black woman that the article touched on lightly, that the average White male, depending on his generation, will not go passed in order to see a woman and not simply a race.

This is an issue that I have dealt with myself, and have seen it in movies as well. It is just more difficult for Black women do date outside their race than it is for Black men, and I don't honestly have an answer as to why. But I will say that if another White guy walks up to me after a drink or two and says "what up, sista" one more time, I will probably scream! And mind you, I am over 40!

  • 2 votes
#1.9 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:45 AM EDT
greencomet

Roy Wilson

I'm glad you are married to a black woman. It's a trend that I'd like to see increase, because simply everyone deserves to find love, wherever they find it. And as a black woman I find it refreshing to meet a white man who finds me attractive.

bsbfankaren

I'm a lot younger than you but I TOTALLY understand your experience. I've often been courted by white guys because of the "exotic" factor, but I doubt they would ever want to marry me.

  • 3 votes
#1.10 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:56 AM EDT
bsbfankaren

Thanks, greencomet. For some reason people do not like to see that everyone does not share the same experiences!

  • 1 vote
#1.11 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:59 AM EDT
addiem

My cousin (white) married a black woman (she does not look "white", dad is from the Carribean, mom AA). Her professional parents were ticked, but eventually got over it. My aunt was getting a bit annoyed with the "reverse discrimination" as she called it, since she liked the girl and, well, our extended family is just pretty international, several from Asia. My daughter's boyfriend is multi-ethnic. My son's girlfriend's family comes from Asia. And so on.

Both were in college when they met. They live in the Midwest, get some looks but ignore it. They live in a comfortable house in a diverse area, and have 2 really cute kids. AA women ought to ignore people who are pressuring them and live their own lives - life's too short.

  • 3 votes
#1.12 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:18 PM EDT
Freedom Writer-801740

addiem the last line of your posting shows your intelligence.

AA women ought to ignore people who are pressuring them and live their own lives

ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! After all are the people pressuring them helping them achieve their happiness, evidently according to this article that would be a big NO.

Really the bottom line is people really shouldnt care about what other people think period. You are the only one who can make yourself happy.

  • 3 votes
#1.13 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:26 PM EDT
rrobeson

Failure in anything doesn't take social therapy , it's look in the mirror stupid therapy.

Fill in the blank here: Diary of a Mad ___— Woman!

Gee maybe that has something to do with turning off people.

  • 1 vote
#1.14 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:43 PM EDT
Skiddy

No, this shows that educated black women can't find enough educated black men eligible to marry them. It also shows that the wrong black women are having babies, the uneducated ones on welfare having 6 kids by 6 different men, perpetuating the welfare system generation to generation.

  • 6 votes
#1.15 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:04 PM EDT
NONEYA-382584

What I get from the statement of marrying down is that men who not have or obtain the same education level as their counterpart are inferior to them. So, since I only have a master degree, I am unequal to a women with a PHD. This is a civil rights violation against men. I'm thinking I have a law suit.

    #1.16 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:40 PM EDT
    Novel_Writer

    I completely disagree with Ms Cyprah. It's not AA women's unrealistic expectations keeping them from marriage, especially given that if you want to date a black man these days, it's imperative that you have little to no expectations or risk being completely disappointed. That being said, this article does have tremendous value, in my perspective, because it's very true. Statistics do not lie, regardless of what your own individual experiences have been. I'm sorry, but for all the time I worked to get post-graduate degrees, I can not take on the liability of a partner who has a dead-end job making $30,000 a year, even if he's extremely happy at it, because it just won't make ends meet. Women have to consider these things given that, even in marriage relationships, we have the vast majority of the child-rearing responsibilities, and statistically, we're more likely to be out of work for extended periods of time for illnesses (many related to pregnancy and childbirth).

    And I agree that it's simply not easy for AA women to just date outside of their race. The writer is correct in the assertion (basically) that in white communities, if you're going to bring someone of color around, she probably better be Asian, or there's going to be a little drama before people get used to the idea. A lot of white men don't want to deal with that, and take the risk of being ostracized by their friends and family.

    Finally, as a woman who has recently considered having children on her own in recent months, the writer is also spot-on about educated black women being limited in this choice because of the perspectives of other people. High-achieving women will consider, though it's hopefully not the driving factor behind what we do or do not do, how we're perceived, especially given the work that we CONSTANTLY have to do to break through the stereotypes in society. I didn't want someone to automatically assume I'm a certain type of person because they see me in the grocery store with a child and no wedding ring. That's a real consideration for me, and for some women, that can be all it takes to not go at the child thing alone. White women look like heroes, but we look like "another single black mom."

    • 1 vote
    #1.17 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:36 PM EDT
    ROY WILSON-336103

    greencomet "it is not as simple as black males putting the pressure on. There is intense "communal" pressure against AA women dating outside their race."

    That's no doubt true, because my wife got pressure from her black family, but, interestingly, virtually no negative comments from my white relatives and friends.
    I did notice however that animosity dissipated rapidly after the families and friends on both sides got to know us.

    Ultimately, it's a decision that each individual needs to make for themselves, but it would be a shame to allow racial stereotypes to get in the way of happiness. As a highly educated white man, I have found that shared experiences and intellect are far more important than skin color for happiness.

    • 3 votes
    #1.18 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:40 PM EDT
    bsbfankaren

    Skiddy

    No, this shows that educated black women can't find enough educated black men eligible to marry them. It also shows that the wrong black women are having babies, the uneducated ones on welfare having 6 kids by 6 different men, perpetuating the welfare system generation to generation.

    Skiddy, let's deal with this once and for all. Black people make up just 10 to 13% of the American population, depending on who you ask, and are in fact now the second largest minority group in the US. If Black women were making babies at the rate you seem to think they are, don't you think our percentage would be higher?

    Come on now. Act like you have at least a little common sence, and stop perpetuating stereotypes!

    • 7 votes
    #1.19 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:00 PM EDT
    Ian Blokesworth

    Novel_Writer wrote "I'm sorry, but for all the time I worked to get post-graduate degrees, I can not take on the liability of a partner who has a dead-end job making $30,000 a year, even if he's extremely happy at it, because it just won't make ends meet. "
    You'd think that higher education and income would make it clear that individual incomes of $30k and $100k sum to a household income of $130K. Ends do meet. Some habits, such as weekly trips to the nail and hair salons, must be eliminated.
    Even today, women and especially higher income women have the expectation of having a man pay the bills. Most of their value in a mate is measured by the materials he can provide. Stable companionship apparently has no value.
    Higher income women have collections of expensive habits that can only be maintained by even higher male incomes. Many men (myself included) have accepted this income disparity in marriage. By not having an minimum income requirement in my choice of mate, it was easy to choose a good one. I did receive a number of on-line dating email invitations from educated black women. While I was open to meeting them, their listed income requirements were 150K+ without exception. Although I met that requirement, I passed everytime, cringing at the idea of what kind of a date I would have to plan would please these women.

    • 5 votes
    #1.20 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:20 PM EDT
    Karen in Los Angeles

    I don't think race has anything to do with it. ALL of the high-achieving WOMEN I know (whatever the race) are either not married, or married when they were in their 50s.

    • 2 votes
    #1.21 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:13 PM EDT
    bsbfankaren

    Yes, Karen, we know. There is no such thing as race, unless someone is using it for nefarious reasons.

      #1.22 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:16 PM EDT
      Ian Blokesworth

      The word race, in the typical fashion of syllable and word count inflation, has been replaced by the "physical characteristics that identify a member of an ethic group."

        #1.23 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:26 PM EDT
        bsbfankaren

        So, Ian. Is that a nicer way of stating the obvious?

          #1.24 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:20 PM EDT
          Ian Blokesworth

          Yes, it is. Though, while it may be difficult for scientists to distinguish groups of people by computerized genetic analysis, human brains can perform the identical calculation in the blink of an eye. Thus, there is such a thing as race.

          • 1 vote
          #1.25 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:37 PM EDT
          Intelligent Designed FemaleDeleted
          Skiddy

          bsbfankaren, you obviously do not live in the part of the country I live in. The black women here cannot find enough black men who aspire to more than being a thug rapper with their pants down around their knees. Those that do are lucky. And they are under intense pressure not to do outside their race, unlike black men.

            #1.27 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:19 AM EDT
            Veronica-1279096

            I am writing this email in response to the recent article titled "Marriage eludes high-achieving black women". I could not agree more. In fact, this article was more succinct about the core reason that highly educated black women like myself are young and single with no prospect of marriage. Each case is different but the common denominator is being a black woman in America. I currently live in southern California, in a community of White and Asian population. I am generally comfortable but if I continue to live in this community, I will inevitably end up single for the rest of my life. People are friendly and cordial but I can sense it would be an absolute taboo for anyone to ask me out on a date. I actually got asked out on dates and guys took genuine interest in me when I traveled outside the country. When I do get married, I am absolutely sure it will not be an American.

              #1.28 - Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:49 AM EDT
              msamericanpatriot

              The funny thing is Asian and white women may seem to be of value to black men and other non-white or asian men. So that means they are of no value to their own men???

              In that case they are devalued. I would say asian women especially of Vietnamese, Thai, and Korean have the lowest value. It would also seem that Middle Easternerns and Southeast Asians (Indians) have the greatest value of their women. Why?? They are of the races that tend to less marry outside thier race. Kudos for them for keeping their race pure. Kudos to their men for being responsible and maintaining their ethnic identity and shame to blacks, whites, and asian men for being trash heaps and letting their women pimp themselves out and pollute their race.

              I agree. I am a 39 year old white woman who is single by no choice of her own because I keep getting hit on by black men. I will NOT be Nicole Simpson here. She got what she desevered for dating out of her race. I will not be the mother of a pack of Obamas either. Read his so called auto biography and you see flat out he LOATHES his white half. When thoes half breeds reach the 18-22 range they place their white mother in the same file as the Easter Bunny. They are more violent prone too. Just look at the kids OJ had with Nicole. Intellegently Designed Woman I wished you were my sister.

                #1.29 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:20 AM EDT
                Intelligent Designed FemaleDeleted
                space guy

                It is my opinion, being married to an incredibly intelligent and beautiful woman, that it does not matter what race you are, intelligent women, especially very beautiful ones, have a hard time finding a mate.

                We have spent the last four decades dumbing down men and building up women and this is one of the results.

                • 2 votes
                #1.31 - Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:16 AM EST
                Reply
                ThunderProof

                Maybe the key factor that is being overlooked is the fact that they are SMART WOMEN. Color has no value in it!

                • 6 votes
                #2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:43 AM EDT
                bsbfankaren

                That sounds great, but color does have a value in this discussion. It is the first thing a person sees, and it does make a difference when it comes to what someone is attracted to.

                No reason why we can't just admit that!

                • 5 votes
                #2.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:36 AM EDT
                ming-315743

                I am interested in why do you think that is? Why would someone be turned off or on by color?

                • 1 vote
                #2.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
                serious

                I understand what you are saying. I would think a marriage between a woman with a doctorate/law degree/MD degree and a man of much lesser education would be less likely to endure than a similar marriage in which the genders were reversed.

                Perhaps that is my prejudice, but that is how I see it.

                This leaves highly educated women with a much smaller pool of partners than highly educated men who will marry "beneath them" educationally.

                For minority women this would complicate things if a significant portion of that pool of men would not marry outside their racial or religious group. (Let's be honest, Jewish people are over-represented in the pool of highly educated people, and less likely to marry a non-Jew and few blacks or Hispanics are Jewish.)

                So, the pool gets even smaller for highly educated black women.

                • 4 votes
                #2.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:55 AM EDT
                serious

                Ming, it isn't necessarily color. African American women do not have the same physique as women of Asian desent. Stand 100 Japanese women in a line and 100 African American women in a line and you will not be able to deny that most of the African Americans have significantly larger breasts and more volupuous hips than the Japanese.

                In my experience most African American women are more fashion conscious than most white American women. Given the male eye for beauty, I would have thought that black women would fare well in love.

                But then I remember all the bortching about Michelle Obama's clothes and arms and etc. and I realize that maybe it is I who is out of the mainstream.

                • 3 votes
                #2.4 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
                bsbfankaren

                It wasn't only that, serious, but there were many people trying to parse out what about her was "beautiful" and what was not. It was more like she was up for auction, than a future first lady, and it made many of us feel uncomfortable.

                And by the way, I happen to be built more like Michelle Obama, in that I have small breasts and a good sized backside. That is the type of figure I would say is closer to African American, but that is just me.

                • 3 votes
                #2.5 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:50 AM EDT
                Ian Blokesworth

                ming-315743 wrote "I am interested in why do you think that is? Why would someone be turned off or on by color?"
                Color in the US is coupled with culture. Skin color by itself is not the issue. Most American men are unable to get past the idea of dating a fake blond. I'd admit that I have been more open to dating a dark Asian-Indian than an African American. There is also a socialization against becoming intimate without someone visually different from the average female. I'm sure this barrier would be lowered by repeated exposure, but it's important to recognize the significance of this obstacle. I'd say that I am more willing to experiment than the average American.
                Caucasian men are outright lambasted for dating out of their racial group by Caucasian women. When I was dating an Asian woman , I was repeatedly and aggressively "hit on" by Caucasian women uttering the same cliche "What does she have that I don't have?" So, there has to be a significant attraction factor to compensate for the disruption caused by dating outside of your race.

                  #2.6 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:29 PM EDT
                  ming-315743

                  Ian and serious, thanks for the insight. I just have always dated in and out of my racial group and found it to be enlightening and interesting. We can learn an awful lot from each other. Thanks

                    #2.7 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:57 PM EDT
                    Karen in Los Angeles

                    I would think a marriage between a woman with a doctorate/law degree/MD degree and a man of much lesser education would be less likely to endure than a similar marriage in which the genders were reversed.

                    Serious

                    That is a prejudice on your part as Dear Abby would tell you.

                      #2.8 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:14 PM EDT
                      bsbfankaren

                      Actually, Karen, serious has a point. We still live in a society where a man is judged rather harshly if his wife brings home more bacon than he does. While a woman is a gold digger in such a situation, a man is seen as a loser! It can be a difficult situation for both parties in a relationship.

                      • 2 votes
                      #2.9 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:21 PM EDT
                      Karen in Los Angeles

                      Most American men are unable to get past the idea of dating a fake blond.

                      Ian

                      You apparently do not live anywhere close to California, particularly Los Angeles where fake blonds and fake boobs are the norm.

                      The very wealthy men who live here marry the fake blonds with the fake boobs over the "natural" women.

                      • 1 vote
                      #2.10 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:30 PM EDT
                      Sandra-293107

                      Karen in Los Angeles, in regard to Serious' statement:

                      I would think a marriage between a woman with a doctorate/law degree/MD degree and a man of much lesser education would be less likely to endure than a similar marriage in which the genders were reversed.

                      If you've ever done any reading by Dr. John Gray, Ph.D., who has written numerous "Mars versus Venus," books, he essentially states that it would be far "more difficult" for a man and woman to stay in a relationship IF the woman out earns the man. It's a matter of Boy vs. Girl, and Boy Needs Girl to Need Him. When a woman earns more money, then it gives off the appearance she does not need him. Therefore, it makes it MUCH MORE DIFFICULT for a man and woman to stay in a relationship when (a) she earns more money, or (b) she's more educated, and (c) I'm sure there is one, but I'm just not thinking of it at the moment ;)

                      So, your calling Serious prejudice? ..... well, I don't think he/she was being prejudice. And, I think the name calling was unwarranted.

                      • 1 vote
                      #2.11 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:16 PM EDT
                      Ian Blokesworth

                      Karen in Los Angeles, my wording was cryptic. I meant to write that most American men are fixated on blond-haired women, especially fake blonds, and find it difficult to date the very same women without the bleach.

                      • 1 vote
                      #2.12 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:18 PM EDT
                      Thom1111

                      I'm glad I'm not like "most" men Ian. While all the other boys in school were fawning over Farrah Fawcett (yes, she's beautiful to be sure) I was more interested in Kate and Jaclyn. Mty first girlfriend was a beautiful Mexican girl (junior high :D) I've dated across the spectrum from black (who was told by her father she wasn't allowed to see me anymore because I was white), Asian (married her!), a fiery and highly opinionated redhead, and even Native American. Don't buy into the "Blondes have more fun" stereotype. Find beauty where it is and appreciate it.

                      P.S. This comes to you from a man born and bred in the suburbs (nice place to live, but some very close-minded people)

                      • 1 vote
                      #2.13 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:54 AM EDT
                      Ian Blokesworth

                      I'm with you, Thom1111. I only have a grudge against fake blondes that try to weasel their way into an otherwise rare physical characteristic. In fact, I've avoided fake blondes for their unfounded air of superiority.

                      • 1 vote
                      #2.14 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:22 PM EDT
                      Karen in Los Angeles

                      Sandra

                      It appears you and I do not agree on anything. Nonetheless, you need to tone it down. You act as if your comments are superior to mine and NOTHING could be further from the truth.

                      As well, you are quite condescending to me at times (on this and other posts).

                      All I will say is - you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar and so far all you are using is vinegar.

                        #2.15 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:05 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        Bama-836911

                        Well I am sure some way that it is Bush's fault.

                        • 9 votes
                        Reply#3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:54 AM EDT
                        Julie-401527

                        or Obama's, Pelosi, Rush Limbaugh, etc.

                        Sorry I can't of any independents or I would've added them too.

                        It's not political, but educational.

                        ...marry those with equal levels of education

                        • 3 votes
                        #3.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
                        NicoleTheArtist

                        Lmao! No matter which story I see that statement in it always gives me uncontrollable laughter!!

                        • 1 vote
                        #3.2 - Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:06 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        Phillyme

                        This article is BS for two reasons. 1) I have to agree with Anywho. One more study indicating such a grim outlook for the lives of blacks in America. 2) This article does not mention that there are many successful black women who can't/won't or don't notice marriageable men of color who don't have advanced degrees but have: good jobs, good credit, positive relationships with family and friends, pay their bills on time and may even go to church and be involved in their communities. These men that are supposedly beneath them because they don't draw six or seven figure salaries, keys to executive washrooms and drive the latest Mercedes E-Class may have just the qualities they want: stability, confidence, supportive, loving, caring and man enough to be ok that their woman makes more than them; they are man enough to never have to lean on their woman financially. I have seen several women of my aquaintance overlook a good, stable man simply because of salary or degree level. Such snobbery, elitism and classism is going to continue to keep a good portion of these women unmarried and childless.

                        • 7 votes
                        Reply#4 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
                        GK-298121

                        Time for the rose-colored glasses to come off. It doesn't matter what race a successful woman is, marrying a guy who makes a lot less means he decreases the standard of living she worked to achieve, and he increases his standard of living w/o working for it.

                        I grew up in an uneducated blue collar environment. I am better off becoming an old maid than stepping backwards into the lifestyle I worked so hard to escape. But to me, it isn't just the money. I'd rather marry a $40,000 schoolteacher than an $80,000 guy whose work clothes get so filthy they have to be washed at a laundromat because they'd ruin the washer at home.

                        • 5 votes
                        #4.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:15 AM EDT
                        serious

                        GK, I hear you.

                        Inequality in a marriage causes problems - but I believe those problems are magnified when it is the man who is on the low end of the equality scale.

                          #4.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:05 AM EDT
                          kb in nc

                          But to me, it isn't just the money. I'd rather marry a $40,000 schoolteacher than an $80,000 guy whose work clothes get so filthy they have to be washed at a laundromat because they'd ruin the washer at home.

                          GK--that is the dumbest sh!t I've every heard. That is a classic case of the purely materialistic view that permeates black culture today.

                          In short, you'd rather look like you have money than actually have money. Why would you shortchange yourself (or family) 40k per year so you can have a guy that looks nice in a suit? So you can tell your friends/family that your husband is college educated? Besides, with the extra 40k in salary you would be much more likely to live in a upper class--not blue collar-- neighborhood.

                          Langston Hughes was dead right---crabs in a bucket....

                          • 3 votes
                          #4.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:35 AM EDT
                          addiem

                          I agree with GK, I'd rather marry a schoolteacher than some higher earning blue collar person. There is more to quality of life than just money. Men are enough of pain to deal with, dealing with an educated guy who is good with kids would be great.

                          Of course, I'm thinking of my brother, who just got his masters, but only had a BA for over 10 years - his wife got her PhD (education field), so maybe that is partly why. They aren't rich, but they have a nice home and a darling baby - hoping for more. Lucky for him, his wife went for the teacher not the oil rig dude (these people are white, but still, she married "down" yet stayed with the educated person, circumstances vary). Especially today, having a degree is SO important, doesn't matter what ethnic background you may be. But like my brother's case, level of education may not match but it can still work.

                            #4.4 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:27 PM EDT
                            Ian Blokesworth

                            You'd think that in the age of sexual equality, women would be able to mimic male behavior in which greater income offers a wider selection of mates, including better-looking + lower status. Obviously, women don't work that way. Higher income women are only able to recognize fewer mates as they treat an even greater percentage of lower status males as garbage.

                            Higher income women make great aunts as long as they're happy with their cats and don't mind visiting children that will alter the meticulous arrangement of their living rooms.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.5 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:38 PM EDT
                            gattes12

                            These men that are supposedly beneath them because they don't draw six or seven figure salaries, keys to executive washrooms and drive the latest Mercedes E-Class may have just the qualities they want: stability, confidence, supportive, loving, caring and man enough to be ok that their woman makes more than them; they are man enough to never have to lean on their woman financially.

                            Spot on.

                            That is usually followed by the ideal that they cannot marry down to a man who makes less because he will be "intimidated" (as if the money a man makes makes a man) and the feeling of being less of a man because the woman brings home more money.

                            Now that is a stereotype if I ever saw one. And the sad part is that many men bring it on themselves.

                            I for one fully believe in equality.

                            Novel_Writer

                            I can not take on the liability of a partner who has a dead-end job making $30,000 a year, even if he's extremely happy at it, because it just won't make ends meet.

                            My point exactly. My wife makes even less than that and we make ends meet just fine.

                            It's all about status, baby. Let's be real.

                              #4.6 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:00 PM EDT
                              kb in nc

                              Addiem wrote:

                              There is more to quality of life than just money. Men are enough of pain to deal with, dealing with an educated guy who is good with kids would be great.

                              Your argument is flawed simply because you equate a education with intelligence. I know plenty of doctors who couldn't find a way home if you dropped them off at an airport. I also know plumbers making 6 figures.

                              Also you are implying that if a guy has a blue collar back ground then his quality of life is bad. How many white collar people have a horrible quality of life, spending all that time on the road in meetings and traveling, missing out on the lives at home?

                              • 2 votes
                              #4.7 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:34 PM EDT
                              Ian Blokesworth

                              An easy test is to ask which group would rather be the other group. Though, I think it's harder to get a blue-collar man to drink a microbrew in public than a white-collar man to drink a Schlitz.

                                #4.8 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:29 PM EDT
                                kb in nc

                                Ian you might be right, although President Obama was drinking Bud LIght. Go figure...

                                  #4.9 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:45 PM EDT
                                  anon-1980

                                  "I also know plumbers making 6 figures"

                                  as well they should, they are doing a job that even the people who created the "mess" won't touch in their home.

                                    #4.10 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:54 PM EDT
                                    addiem

                                    kb - "no" on your intelligence comment. An education just polishes the intelligent man. A higher education often leads to a higher level of thinking and a more well-rounded person, kind of the point. When it comes to college, many enter, few graduate - only about 30% of Americans actually earn a degree. (Last census however - 58% of Asian Indians graduated!!)

                                    It is sad when "dad" is an executive that must travel a lot, or works 12 hour days in a surgery practice, when the kids are little - these men are doing a work/parenthood balancing act. However, there are perks to the kids' benefit, better and safer neighborhoods, lots of sports and activities, being able to travel and see a bit of the world. And, since my husband is a high earner, we donate hundreds of dollars to the suburban school our kids attend, to help kids who cannot quite afford the fees and such, plus I am able to donate hours of volunteer time helping at school. I paid for my daughter's friend to take the SAT (her mom is single), and was able to help her boyfriend arrange his financial aide and books. (Kids of all ages and colors love me, because I really do care about them all.) I could be a school trip volunteer because I can pay my own way.

                                    Why would I even want to go out of my way with others? This is how my upper middle class parents lived their lives, well-to-do, and trying to help those who want to help themselves. That is how MY white collar family was, growing up - education focused, besides enjoying not having a lot of stress as regards money. (I do not have a lot in common as regards life experience with poor whites on a social level, and plan to keep it that way.) And yes, my dad was doctor who could barely find his way home while driving, buy he knew the hospital corridors like the back of his hand. Hmmm, my brother-in-law is an industrial plumber by training (factory), but just finished his degree, working on his masters - great guy and dad, loves travel and having nice things - saw the writing on the wall with the economy and has a new good job.

                                      #4.11 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:58 PM EDT
                                      Thom1111

                                      Addiem, good thing you have so many relatives in the medical field. You must get some pretty fancy casts for your arm after it's been broken from patting yourself on the back.

                                      • 5 votes
                                      #4.12 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:06 AM EDT
                                      HSB-1197388

                                      To GK-298121

                                      But to me, it isn't just the money. I'd rather marry a $40,000 schoolteacher than an $80,000 guy whose work clothes get so filthy they have to be washed at a laundromat because they'd ruin the washer at home.

                                      I found this the most offensive post on here. Both my grandfathers went from farming with their families after losing their family farms during the Dust Bowl years into either mechanical or factory type work. Both were not being able to finish high school due to the Great Depression and previously mentioned Dust Bowl years. Both made great money for their day, often equivalent to, or higher than, many of their contemporary college educated peers. Both were able to pay off their homes, routinely pay off cars, and put all their kids through college. I only WISH the following generations had it that way. My grandfathers worked their butts off and the following generation benefitted. Now that the following generation is "white collar" they are up to their eyeballs in credit card debt, will NEVER pay off their homes, and forget any kids left at home getting help for college outside of getting their parents to co-sign for student loans, and in fact, at this rate, there will be nothing left for their kids to inherit outside of debt whilst my grandfathers left homes and vehicles that were paid off, no debt, and nice insurance benefits. Pardon me, but I'd take a financially RESPONSIBLE blue collar worker over ANY white collar worker who believes in living on credit to keep up with the "Joneses" any day of the week!!!

                                      PS: as I mentioned, neither of my grandfathers got high school diplomas whilst my grandmothers did. Good thing my grandmothers weren't stuck on "equal education" and saw the value of these mens' characters, not some sheepskin hung on a wall!

                                      • 6 votes
                                      #4.13 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:54 PM EDT
                                      addiem

                                      thom - if letting someone know (anonymously) how it can be to be a good life to be from a background of education and stability, and also reaching out to help others is somehow "patting" oneself on the back, oh well.

                                      Guess I should just say "I got mine, screw you", that seems to be the way it goes for some these days. Then you'd be happy.

                                      BTW - my dad's father was first generation off the farm, born 1901 - and made sure his boys got an education - 7 out of 8 boys were advanced degreed professionals, the older ones helped the younger up. Grandpa was a factory worker - had to move to another town for that job, great guy - but that was another time in history that, due to job losses in this country, will never be repeated. Education is crucial today, if not college, some sort of career training.

                                        #4.14 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:15 PM EDT
                                        Reply
                                        GK-298121

                                        Smart is intimidating to men, as is earning a high enough paycheck to fully support herself w/o his paycheck. Accomplishment never trumps a pretty face and nice body; I've learned that painful lesson myself.

                                        But successful women of all races are going to find it more and more difficult to find a male peer to marry, as the ratio of women to men on college campuses continues to grow.

                                        Women in other places in the world face comparable issues. Alcoholism is so rampant among men in Russia that they supply of marriagable men is inadequate for the female population.

                                        • 5 votes
                                        Reply#5 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
                                        willie-749103

                                        There are lots of men who mary successful women...the problem here is a lot of black men prefer to marry white women for whatever reason cutting down the available pool of possible mates.

                                        This is a typical BS story but hey, beats another grim story about our rebounding economy.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #5.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:21 AM EDT
                                        serious

                                        willie, why are you assuming that these highly educated black women are waiting around to find a highly educated black man???

                                        I think the pool of available men to any educated woman is small, and I think it is made smaller by those who will not marry outside their religious or racial group - which is just as likely the man as the woman.

                                        • 4 votes
                                        #5.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
                                        Cipher-0

                                        Smart is intimidating to men, as is earning a high enough paycheck to fully support herself w/o his paycheck.

                                        Nonsense. The males put off my a successful woman aren't men, at least not my this man's definition.

                                        When we married, by wife made more than I did and fully supported herself and her two kids. This has changed back and forth over the intervening years more than once. It makes precisely no difference.

                                        But successful women of all races are going to find it more and more difficult to find a male peer to marry, as the ratio of women to men on college campuses continues to grow.

                                        I love how peer is narrowly defined as the education level of the man. That's a crap definition. I've met all manner of college-educated idiots who's computers I repair. College education does not equal better by any stretch of the imagination.

                                          #5.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:18 PM EDT
                                          Ian Blokesworth

                                          GK-298121 wrote "Smart is intimidating to men, as"
                                          Many women erroneously use the word smart with the word demanding. Men simply have a lower libidinous response to a plain-looking, post-fertile women with a paycheck. That response is lowered to zero when men realize that higher income women are usually paired with expensive personal habits aka NEEDS coupled with zero assets. Believe me. I've passed on many such women for exactly those reasons.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #5.4 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:43 PM EDT
                                          Ian Blokesworth

                                          Cipher-o wrote : "I've met all manner of college-educated idiots who's computers I repair. College education does not equal better by any stretch of the imagination."

                                          If you had attended college, you would probably be a computer designer. Everyone can open a can. Few know how to make them.

                                            #5.5 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:45 PM EDT
                                            gattes12

                                            Ian, it gets better

                                            Smart is intimidating to men

                                            No, the arrogance that typically accompanies the smarts is a complete turnoff. Many (not all) of these women use their accomplishments as a means to establish their dominance.

                                            That in and of itself creates an awkward imbalance in the relationship unless both parties agree to partake in certain roles.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #5.6 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
                                            Cipher-0

                                            If you had attended college, you would probably be a computer designer. Everyone can open a can. Few know how to make them.

                                            Two things.

                                            First, I have no desire whatsoever to design systems. I'm quite happy being all I can be maintaining them as things change.

                                            Second, you're presuming I don't have a college education.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #5.7 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:18 PM EDT
                                            Ian Blokesworth

                                            Cipher-0, you really don't put out much information for us to work with, so I have to guess a lot.

                                              #5.8 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:31 PM EDT
                                              GK-298121

                                              gattes - but you think it's OK for a smart man to use his accomplishments to establish his dominance? I'm not arguing that a woman should use smarts to establish dominance, but if she does, she's just doing the same thing that smart men often do. But, if you marry a peer (in terms of smarts), there's no need for either to establish dominence.

                                              Ian - as an person's income rise, so does his/her ability to engage in and enjoy expensive habits - otherwise, why shoot for a higher paycheck? But, you are stereotyping. I have my expensive habits (travel & purses), but my net worth statement is good too - and I suspect many women are like me - "bag lady" syndrome runs rampant, even among educated professional women.

                                                #5.9 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
                                                HSB-1197388

                                                You again, GK! Thankfully hubby married me despite my having a higher level of education when we first met and that he stayed with me during those times when I earned more than him. But then again, he's a REAL man.

                                                And as I posted previously, many, many men failed to finish college or even high school during the Depression but then went on to marry women who had at the very least finished high school. I'm sorry, but men are not intimidated by women who have more education. They do however, find women who are arrogant unattractive.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #5.10 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:10 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                greencomet

                                                I find this has a LOT of resonance for me as an African-American woman. I'm younger than the demographic in the study, but when I first started college I definetely noticed the disparity between AA men and AA women in school. Because there was so many more women it created fierce competition, which in turn made the men unwilling to get into serious relationships. Yes, there are a lot of snobby elitist AA women that wont date below their class or education. But that's a whole different issue.

                                                I am now expecting a child and will be raising the child alone. Both me and my former partner are college graduates who had "good" jobs. So I absolutely understand the conflicts of having a child alone. Because as a single AA mom, people automatically assume your education level and social class without even knowing or speaking to me.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                Reply#6 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:07 AM EDT
                                                serious

                                                I wish you all the best lady. I hope you have a support system of some flavor, family, close friends, a helpmate in the baby's father, even if he doesn't want to stay with you.

                                                Best of luck. It isn't easy, single parenthood.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #6.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:09 AM EDT
                                                greencomet

                                                Thanks serious. This is completely off-topic, but one thing the recession has taught me is to be a lot more empathetic towards other people and to not judge them so quickly. Not to turn this into my own personal whine session, but my former partner was "perfect" college degree, decent job, extremely intelligent etc. Within a few months I went from being an educated black woman with a good job herself, to an unemployed single and pregnant black woman. My "perfect" mate will not be a part of our lives, which right now is for the better. Luckily i DO have an amazing family that is extremely supportive, but it rocks your whole paradigm when all of a sudden you are considered a stereotypical "ghetto" single mom on Medicaid (because really WHO can afford COBRA coverage long term, and who will hire a pregnant woman, REALLY?!?!) when just a few months ago you were considered to be part of that "talented 10th" WEB Dubios' label, not mine.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #6.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:26 PM EDT
                                                NONEYA-382584

                                                Best of luck, being a single parent is challenging, but your character and virtue will endure.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #6.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:49 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                Bob-1243446

                                                I totally agree with Phillyme. A Phd graduate doesn't require a Phd graduate to have a healthy relationship or marriage. If your standards for having a meaningful relationship with someone is totally based on higher education and job status; then you might be lonely or alone for a extended time period, but it is your choice. Hopefully the book is better than this article.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                Reply#7 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:07 AM EDT
                                                serious

                                                I am happy that you feel that way. Unfortunately, most of society does not agree with you.

                                                Half of all marriages end in divorce, and adding any level of inequality to the mix just adds another stressor. It becomes one more thing to negotiate.

                                                There is also the problem of meeting said person. Many people meet at work or at parties thrown by mutual friends. People from totally different educational backgrounds are not likely to me moving in the same social circles.

                                                  #7.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:12 AM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  Tangiers

                                                  This article is a waste of a read.. poor black people! once again.... S*hit, everyone has it rough

                                                  • 5 votes
                                                  Reply#8 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:14 AM EDT
                                                  bsbfankaren

                                                  First you say this, then continue on to find a post that you believe has some value, apparently.

                                                  If you didn't like the article, why did you read it in the first place?

                                                  • 7 votes
                                                  #8.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:41 AM EDT
                                                  Tangiers

                                                  Its just that, I thought her post was clear and intelligent. Am I not allowed to tell her that or feel that way?

                                                  How am I going to know what the article is about, if I dont read it. ??? What, are you telling me to just read the title and judge the article on those grounds? After reading it I thought it was a BS article. Smarten up pal.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #8.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
                                                  bsbfankaren

                                                  Sure you are, but the issue was that you made it sound like Black people were whining, yet when you read a post from an actual Black person, it made you think.

                                                  In this internet age, we are too quick to decide what is good or bad, before taking the time to take a closer look.

                                                  It may have been a "BS article", but it is a very real situation confronted by Black women in this day and age.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #8.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:53 AM EDT
                                                  Tangiers

                                                  Black is a color. It does not have to be capitalized.

                                                  My first post is what it is. There is a lot of whining going on, and black people arent the only ones, I'll admit. I have no problem with blacks and you dont have to turn it into a racial argument. You made your point that you dont want me to express my feelings on how I am fed up with these kind of articles. (articles trying to make targets out of a black person no matter how smart, rich, dumb, ghetto, elegant, etc. they are) If you're smart and successful, leave it at that. Somehow, still, there is a need to feel like the object of scrutiny.

                                                  The post I commented on didnt make me think. I dont know what you are referring to when you say that. All I said was it was a good post, because I like her views on life.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #8.4 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:43 PM EDT
                                                  bsbfankaren

                                                  Black is what my race has been called for decades. I suppose you can choose to capitalize it or not, but why you would make an issue out of it is truly beyond my pay grade, is the saying goes.

                                                  I understand that you didn't like the article, and I posted my opinion of what you said, however, in what way did I make it a "racial argument"? This is the part that always turns any discussion into an argument, and makes people shut down.

                                                  Listen, if you don't like something I am saying, then say so; but to then accuse me of making something "racial" right after you tell me that Black should not be capitalized, tells me that you are for some reason more comfortable with arguing, than discussing.

                                                  Again I say, the subject of this article is nothing new, and has even been the subject of a few movies in the past five years or so, as well as magazine and newspaper articles. What is so wrong with discussing what the reasons are, and possibly ways to change the ideas or stereotypes that might surround such a situation? Why?

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #8.5 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:54 PM EDT
                                                  Tangiers

                                                  I didnt like what you were saying. You know that. I have nothing against black people. I mentioned that already. My first post is about my personal opinion and how I think this story is unnecessary. It wasnt supposed to be about how black people are whiners. You turned it into that.

                                                  I think you took my comment very, very personally. Whereas I was only disgusted in the story and others like it, that make people feel sorry for themselves when there is no need to. Remember, this is my opinion. So dont write to me again saying that this is a very important issue.. lol.

                                                  One question, when you are talking about white people, do you capitalize white?

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #8.6 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:54 PM EDT
                                                  bsbfankaren

                                                  Actually, I do capilitalize White!

                                                  And please, there is nothing you could possibly say here that I would take personally. I wouldn't know you if I saw you walking down the street, therefore this is stricktly conversation.

                                                  And I will say it again, thank you. This is an important issue. As young Black women start to look at their educational options, they shouldn't have to be concerned about whether or not they will end up married with children, as we've come to aspire to be.

                                                  And that is in fact my opinion!

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #8.7 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:25 PM EDT
                                                  Tangiers

                                                  Hehe, my regards. Good luck and best wishes....

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #8.8 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:32 PM EDT
                                                  bsbfankaren

                                                  And best wishes to you as well!

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #8.9 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:23 PM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  Sandra-293107

                                                  I agree that more and more women are becoming highly educated, and it does narrow the playing field for potential mates. Case in point, I went on for a master's degree, my ex-husband did not. One of my male friends (who is an engineer) told me that the reason why we got a divorce is because I had more education. I thought that was silly at the time, but now it makes sense to me. Men are threatened by a partner who they perceive do not need them anymore; in the end, it's really all about women showing that they "need" their partner.

                                                  In regard to the article, here's my theory, and it's just humble opinion. Again, educated black women are still going to keep a very close relationship with their family, well, of course, they are! They don't want to appear "ghetto," but in many cases, they've lifted themselves up, and out of the ghetto -- but, their family is still there. When a person marries, they don't just marry the "partner," they marry the family. I think alot of men are hesitant to add this kind of drama into their lives. And, it all boils down to the "Haves" and the "Have Nots," and family members holding their hands out.

                                                  I'm not being rude or racist ... this is just an observation. And, don't get me wrong, I'm not against interracial marriage.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  Reply#9 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:14 AM EDT
                                                  HSB-1197388

                                                  I know just as many marriages that broke up once the man received a higher degree than his wife as vice versa (your situation). Very often, attitudes on BOTH sides change once this happens. The one that has made the achievement and sees and feels the benefit both socially and financially feels more confident and "changes" whilst the partner whose education has not changed suddenly feels inadequate. I'm sorry, but ANY relationship takes two sides to make or break. Perhaps YOU changed as much as he did.

                                                    #9.1 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:15 PM EDT
                                                    Sandra-293107

                                                    HSB, well, I don't know of any marriage that broke up because the man was more highly educated than the woman - not one. I know of men who have gone on for higher education, and their wives worked to put them through school, and then when they got finished, the husband would ask for a divorce. Those are the only cases of the "reverse" where the man asks for the divorce because "he" is more highly educated.

                                                    In my case, I took another job only earning about $5K more than my previous position, and my husband earned more than double of what I did. Did I have more self-confidence? Probably. Did that make me change? Good point that you made, yes, it probably did make me change.

                                                      #9.2 - Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:13 PM EDT
                                                      MsMath

                                                      Sandra,

                                                      Sure you have. There are plenty of men that have married their high school or college sweethearts. You know the ones that worked and supported him while he went on to get his M.D., Law, etc. degree. Only for the first wife to be dumped for some 20 year old trophy wife once he has the degree and the money to go along with it.

                                                      Why do black women feel that getting a degree demonstrates that one is intelligent? Lack of formal education and intelligence are not mutually exclusive. Just because a man is a " blue collar worker" or lacking in college degrees, doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't have middle class American values. Bill Gates, Michael Dell, and plenty of other billionaires and entrepreneurs do not have college degrees and are not lacking in the values arena.

                                                      If one so narrowly defines people based on education and material wealth as some of the post indicate, maybe it's this myopic view of the world that keeps so many black women single.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #9.3 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:28 AM EDT
                                                      msamericanpatriot

                                                      Sandra WHAT F'N PLANET ARE YOU FROM!! That might happen in Hollweird movies but it dont happen now. Might of happend in society. It might have been more fequent before the sex, drugs, and rock and roll hippie generation but not now. You need to get you head out of your butt unless you enjoy the veiw there which apparently you do.

                                                        #9.4 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:29 AM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        L-1274548

                                                        SERIOUSLY, why would this article be printed?? Next, do an article on, "Marriage eludes high-achieving white women" and "Marriage eludes high-achieving asian women" and "Marriage eludes high-achieving white women"...this is the most tasteless kind of reporting. We are all AMERICANS, stop already with the catagorizing of race stories and move on!

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        Reply#10 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:15 AM EDT
                                                        greencomet

                                                        I agree we are all Americans but as an African American, my life experience is different than a white person or an Asian person. Why can't people just accept that we experience different things, it's called multiculturalism.

                                                        • 5 votes
                                                        #10.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:24 AM EDT
                                                        Ms CYPRAH

                                                        Why can't people just accept that we experience different things, it's called multiculturalism.

                                                        Exactly, a key point. But that won't happen with some people because they really FEAR difference, particularly relating to colour. It makes them feel uncomfortable and so they don't know how to cope with it. They tend to ignore it instead, relegating it to being irrelevant (since it's not relevant to them!), or they act superior towards it. Yet they seldom ignore gender, another key element of our makeup, especially when it applies to a man!

                                                        • 3 votes
                                                        #10.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:35 AM EDT
                                                        bsbfankaren

                                                        It was an article about relationships and family. It was not an article about the national headlines, or what is going on internationally. What is so wrong about discussing what may be on the minds of someone that might be sitting next to you?

                                                        People are so very strange these days, when it comes to even the mention of race! The day people stop commenting on the mear mention of race, will be the day that race is no longer important!

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #10.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:56 AM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        A. E. NorthDeleted
                                                        Road Warrior-1005773

                                                        In today’s society, why would any man want to get married, especially to highly-educated women? Most high-achieving women have a chip on their shoulder. They gripe about the glass ceiling. It’s the pay disparity. It’s the good ole boys network. It’s the I have to work twice as hard as a man to get the same promotion. Men cannot be trusted. Men just can’t handle a strong woman. The list goes on. They bring that chip and baggage into a marriage with them and drive a man crazy. I think alot of men have gotten used to being single and enjoying it. They see the alternative as one of lifetime of misery and inevitable divorce.

                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        Reply#12 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:19 AM EDT
                                                        Lula-854795

                                                        What a sweeping generalization and wretched stereotype of highly educated/high achieving women! I am not saying it may not be true for some, but certainly not for all.

                                                        I am surrounded by beautiful, charming, interesting, highly educated/high achieving women between 30-40 who either cannot find a date at all or cannot find a trustworthy, decent man with integrity to date.

                                                        I was shocked when I first came into my profession (law), to find that most of the men started the job already married or engaged (most to women in jobs like elementary school teaching (not to demean teaching in ANY way!) or to women who did not work at all), whilst most of the women were single. I could only surmise that women (as a generalization) are better at taking a small step back and being supportive to the men while they pursue their degrees and start in a demanding profession, but we women were not able to find men to do the same thing.

                                                        Also, I have actually heard male colleagues say that there is NO WAY they would ever date a woman who was considered more successful or made more money than they do. One even said he couldn't date a woman who worked at a firm deemed bigger or more prestigious that where he was working!

                                                        So while we are all judging women for having a "chip", being to career focused or too picky, let's not forget the fragility of the male ego, regardless of race or ethnicity.

                                                        • 8 votes
                                                        #12.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:49 AM EDT
                                                        Road Warrior-1005773

                                                        What a sweeping generalization and wretched stereotype of highly educated/high achieving women!

                                                        Lula,

                                                        You are also generalizing since you are only looking at the picture from a very narrow spectrum, that of the law profession, hardly a true representation of Americana.

                                                          #12.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:57 AM EDT
                                                          serious

                                                          Lula did not generalize. She said in her experience... so she did not generalize - she qualified her statements.

                                                          • 5 votes
                                                          #12.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:14 AM EDT
                                                          Ian Blokesworth

                                                          Lula-854795 wrote "Also, I have actually heard male colleagues say that there is NO WAY they would ever date a woman who was considered more successful or made more money than they do."
                                                          Sure, this is common. Although women are generally criticized for valuing *higher* income in their mates, relative dominance is also important. For women, income dominance is foremost on their mind. Men understand this element of the dating game and follow the rule you wrote. Judging from on-line dating profiles, women list a clear preference for taller, physically-stronger men. Clint Eastwood types get more play than Woody Allen types even though they both have a lot of cash.
                                                          That said, as women's income rises, they treat a greater % of the male population with contempt. These women consider their equal to be a man that makes more money at a higher rate. The "3/4 sex wage gap" is only the start as it measures pay at comparable jobs. If a comparison were made on lifetime earnings, I would guess the difference to be something between 2-3x as men start earning working earlier, work more years and take less time off, including sick days.

                                                            #12.4 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:46 PM EDT
                                                            Reply
                                                            Missy-814760

                                                            Yes, some men maybe intimidated by ANY woman who's smart and accomplished. But for everyone who is, there are plenty who aren't. The key is keeping yourself open to the men who will appreciate you and stop hyperventilating over the ones who don't! It never ceases to amaze me how so many women seem to be so very willing to settle for so very little, when it come to selecting a potential spouse and father for their children. I believe that if more women would put the effort into selecting a mate that some of them appear to put into selecting a pair of shoes, the picture might look a bit different. Also, there are men of other races and cultures who do love and marry black women! Not all of them are celebrities or do it because going out with a 'woman of color" is seen as exotic etc. There are successful examples of this in my own family. I also agree with the idea of looking beyond the six figure job and the high-end car. These "accessories" mean absolutely nothing in the long run. Look for the man who handles his business, e;g. pays his bills on time, saves some of his check and lives for something other than just going out. These are the men that I appreciate and respect.

                                                            • 6 votes
                                                            Reply#13 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:21 AM EDT
                                                            Tangiers

                                                            Nice post

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #13.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:29 AM EDT
                                                            Ms CYPRAH

                                                            The key is keeping yourself open to the men who will appreciate you and stop hyperventilating over the ones who don't!

                                                            Precisely, Missy. That's it in a nutshell! :o)

                                                            Too many people focus on the negatives instead of seeking the positives. Yet there are lots of positive people around.

                                                            • 4 votes
                                                            #13.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:39 AM EDT
                                                            Lula-854795

                                                            I haven't hyperventilated over a guy in probably about 15 years. Might be nice! :)-

                                                              #13.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:52 AM EDT
                                                              Reply
                                                              Leena

                                                              As a highly successful (by the articles definition) black woman please note-- I am not childless.  I am childfree.  Google the word because there is a big difference. 

                                                              I am 38 and have zero desire to have a child.  And fwiw, stupid arguments that "I'm selfish...will change my mind...etc." show true ignorance.   Having a child is a life choice and not one every woman wants to make.  This article is irritating to me because it doesn't address those women like me.

                                                              But I do agree that being successful made it harder to date.  While I was very willing to date someone that didn't have my salary level, degrees, etc. some black men simply were not.   (and would tell me so)  They literally told me they were "looking for equals" and I was "too high" out of the range.  How silly is that??

                                                              I started dating outside my race to broaden my horizons.  But sidenote-- now I get black men who feel free to make ignorant comments on the street to me and my white boyfriend almost each week...and we've been together over six years.  So, the article is dead on on black men policing black women who date outside their race and the double standard of it being okay for black men only.  

                                                              • 12 votes
                                                              Reply#14 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:22 AM EDT
                                                              Phillyme

                                                              You are quite right. There is a double standard. I am a black woman and have dated interracially. I had to break up with a wonderful man whom I may have married because he recived death threats and was once chased out of my former neighborhood with a gun because we were dating. For black men of any income or educational level, its perfectly acceptable, perhaps even even de riguer to date interracially. If a black woman does it, some of our men become offended and behave accordingly. So uncalled for....

                                                              • 10 votes
                                                              #14.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:33 AM EDT
                                                              Bob-1243446

                                                              Those are not black men that are offended by your choice of mate. They are black boys, that are lacking on self worth.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #14.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:15 AM EDT
                                                              addiem

                                                              Bob is too kind, I have gotten in the face of those strangers, aka @ssholes, who would dare cross that line ( only a few times, back in the Midwest). My husband of 30 years is Asian, and I have no patience with total strangers trying to "educate me". Now, no one had a gun....

                                                                #14.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:43 PM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                Road Warrior-1005773

                                                                I hope successful black women who can't get a man don't go shooting men like the Pennsylvania man who shot up the ladies at a health spa because he couldn't get any women to be interested in him.

                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                Reply#15 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:28 AM EDT
                                                                serious

                                                                Women don't look to guns to make up for their feelings of failure the way men seem to do.

                                                                Women also don't murder strangers - family members or love trianglees, but not strangers.

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                #15.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:17 AM EDT
                                                                GK-298121

                                                                What happened was so crazy, because to look at him, he seemed OK. He wasn't ugly, or had a disability or disfigurement that put him at a dating disadvantage.

                                                                But, he wasn't filmed at a Dale Carnegie "How to Win Friends & Influence People" seminar. He was filmed at a sleazy event for guys to learn how to meet women much younger them, instead of acting like a grownup and dating someone around his own age. (The women hired to work this sleazy event are just as bad.)

                                                                And we're just not talking crazies either; watch Patty on Millionaire Matchmaker on Bravo, dealing with rich idiot men 40+ who won't agree to meet any woman over 30.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #15.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:07 PM EDT
                                                                addiem

                                                                Road - your concern is truly touching. I wouldn't worry tho', most, not all, but most, wacko killers are white men and teens, so looks like there is "man shooting rampage" about to occur. You're safe.

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #15.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:46 PM EDT
                                                                Ian Blokesworth

                                                                serious wrote "Women don't look to guns to make up for their feelings of failure the way men seem to do."
                                                                Obviously, men are different. Women rely on men for physical security. If you don't have one in your house, 911 will get you one in a fewer than twenty minutes. Unlike women, men do not feel more secure with their spouses in the house. A man is expected to give up his life in defense of his family, and owning a gun enables home defense. A woman will never be considered a coward for hiding while her husband is murdered. Perhaps this double standard needs an update, ladies.

                                                                  #15.4 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:52 PM EDT
                                                                  NicoleTheArtist

                                                                  A woman will never be considered a coward for hiding while her husband is murdered. Perhaps this double standard needs an update, ladies

                                                                  Actually Ian, you should take into account other factors too. Such as the fact that women have a higher risk of being raped and brutalized than men. We also generally are physically weaker. I would definately try my best to save my loved ones, but some women can't.

                                                                    #15.5 - Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:27 PM EDT
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    Lloyd S

                                                                    Marriage eludes blacks, rich and poor. It is a cultural thing. Black children are typically raised by females, either by mom, "auntie", grandmom, etc. The males are either in jail or siring children to multiple females without regards to marriage. This may not be politically correct or it may be considered "racist" but it is in the culture. Just look at the statistics. The truth is painful. The "Huxtables" and Obamas are an anomaly. This explains the overall lower social status for the majority of blacks in America.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    Reply#16 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:34 AM EDT
                                                                    Erika-960357

                                                                    Well I guess me and my family are an anomaly too.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #16.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
                                                                    greencomet

                                                                    I can't say that that is entirely true. I used to think so but I realize it may be a demographic/geographical thing. I recently relocated from California to the Southeast. I am amazed at how many blacks (all social classes) are married. I know it's off topic but the ideal Cosby family with a doctor and a lawyer may not be common, but marriage in general isn't so rare among blacks as I once thought. Once again, totally off topic but I think that's more indicative of being in the South where people have more traditional, family-centered values.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #16.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:12 PM EDT
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    kflann

                                                                    Heck I see plenty of black guys with white women, I asumed there must be something wrong with black women. Now you tell me they are to smart for black guys, well girls, heres some advice, if you marry white, you will be alright!

                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                    Reply#17 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:35 AM EDT
                                                                    ming-315743

                                                                    I don't get the whole race thing. As a single woman, I dated men of every color and married the one I fell in love with. Color never mattered. I appreciate all culture and just cannot understand someone limiting their options based on skin color.

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #17.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:48 AM EDT
                                                                    bsbfankaren

                                                                    Ming, I appreciate the fact that you dated men of many races, but we do not all have that option. I think the dating pool one has access to is completely dependent on the generation one is a part of, and where one lives. I can be attracted to every White or Asian male that I come in contact with, but the chances are pretty slim that most of them will be attracted to me enough to date me. Have sex with me, would be another matter! ;)

                                                                    For many Black women around the country, race is a factor when it comes to who is attracted to US, if not who were are attracted to!

                                                                    As for "marry white, you will be alright" kflann? Tell me, how many Black women have you actually dated? I mean took to meet your friends, or out to dinner?

                                                                    Just curious!

                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                    #17.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:05 PM EDT
                                                                    Novel_Writer

                                                                    Overall, white men are not as attracted to black women, even if the black woman is attracted to him. Additionally, he feels like he has more to "lose" if he dates a black woman, since it's not widely accepted in the reverse (i.e. as opposed to black men dating white women, which is a whole other topic!).

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #17.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:40 PM EDT
                                                                    bsbfankaren

                                                                    I actually don't think that is true. In fact, because Black women comes in so many different shades of brown, with so many different features, there are indeed White men are attracted to Black women. The issue is often that he is not comfortable about how his portion of society will take him dating a Black woman.

                                                                    Then again, I think that is changing, because I see more young White men in their teens and twenties dating more interracially, then their father's ever would have.

                                                                    By the way, I did date out of my race while in the military, and married a man from Puerto Rico, just in case anyone is curious.

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #17.4 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:53 PM EDT
                                                                    msamericanpatriot

                                                                    Novel Writer then why are there eHarmony like sites dedicated to white men finding brown sugar then. Apparently you have you head in the clouds if you didnt know that.

                                                                      #17.5 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:20 PM EDT
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      MADE IN THE USA-1218234

                                                                      Don't forget that lots of African American men are in jail for gang violence, drugs or just being thugs, and some are just lazy dumb ass****. Who in their right minds would want to marry one of those and have kids with them??? Nobody!

                                                                      And for the 'ghetto' in a single woman with a child, how about the men who have LOTS of kids with lots of diffeent women (of any race)... shouldn't they be called 'ghetto' too.. and they hell don't seem to mind that 'tittle'.

                                                                      ANY educated, intelligent woman (of any race) will not want to go 'beneath' her and marry some man just for the sake of having a family. I would rather stay single than do that!

                                                                      • 6 votes
                                                                      Reply#18 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:35 AM EDT
                                                                      bsbfankaren

                                                                      And yet, that is exactly what Bill Cosby spoke about at Spellman College a few years ago. The fact that Black women were settling for men who were not willing to pursue an education or get a job, simply because they wanted to be married to a Black man! He told those women to aim higher, and not settle, even if it means being alone.

                                                                      So, now what?

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #18.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:10 PM EDT
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      DEAN-979073

                                                                      this because most black me are out, stealing,robbing,pimping,killing,selling drugs ect.....

                                                                      why would a women want to stay with that, or marry that?

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      Reply#19 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:39 AM EDT
                                                                      Ms CYPRAH

                                                                      this because most black me are out, stealing,robbing,pimping,killing,selling drugs ect.....

                                                                      How can this be true when the majority of Black males are not in prison? A high percentage is, but not 'most'. That's the tragedy with using stereotypes to feed our own prejudices, we reveal much more about ourselve than those we are trying to denigrate! :o(

                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                      #19.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:46 AM EDT
                                                                      Intelligent Designed FemaleDeleted
                                                                      msamericanpatriot

                                                                      IDF DAMN you sound ALOT like me. Are we twins that were seperated at birth or something. Another thing to white women: STOP DRESSING LIKE SKANKS!!!!

                                                                        #19.3 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:31 AM EDT
                                                                        Reply
                                                                        Erika-960357

                                                                        First I'd like to say I'm a happily married black woman. Second, after reading the article there were some things in I agree with. When a black woman dates outside her race, black men act like they've been betrayed. But when a black man does it it's ok. Personally I do not care who dates or married to who. My husband is Hispanic. I didn't wake up one morning and say"I think I'll start dating Hispanic men", this is the man I fell in love with. I'm a homemaker, I take care of our 2 children, the house, my husband and anything else within the household. My husband works and we wouldn't have it any other way. We live in small town(about 115,000), we have lots of friends of all colors. We have a good life together. I'm not college educated and neither is my husband he is however a 20 year Army veteran.

                                                                        • 9 votes
                                                                        Reply#20 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:43 AM EDT
                                                                        Michael Buie

                                                                        If a successful, wealthy or highly educated black woman or man marries outside their race, while the unfortunate consequence is they remove that asset from the black community, who can knock what they do if it is for love.

                                                                        But, I abhor the black man that has to "get with" a white woman because that becomes a status symbol for him, or he thinks they are more beautiful.

                                                                        Personally, I am usually attracted to women who have some color to them. There are Asian and white women that have ruddy or darker complexions. But, usually, more black women and Hispanics fit this bill. So, I am generally more attracted to them.

                                                                          #20.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:29 AM EDT
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          cyfi

                                                                          The sadist part of this story is the fact that these professional Black Woman can't pass what they have learned onto the next generation.

                                                                          Another sad reality is a lot of black men are more interested in white woman. Reverse Discrimination shows they have racist people in the black community too. Something the liberals like to ignore.

                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          Reply#21 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:55 AM EDT
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          duchess1970

                                                                          I am a 38 year old attractive, black educated professional female and the article did resonate some truth with me.  I have never been married and never had children but it was not a choice per se.  Things just worked out that way.  I am currently in a serious relationship with a white man who is also professional and educated and we are very happy.   I didn't enter into this relationship because I had given up on black men but because I decided to keep myself open to love regardless of color.  We have received glaring looks on occasion mostly from black men but I chose not to let it bother me.  I just didn't want to end up in a situation were I'd never be a mother (I'm almost out of time to become one naturally as it is) or a wife because of pressure to marry within my race/culture. 

                                                                          • 6 votes
                                                                          Reply#22 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:56 AM EDT
                                                                          Michael Buie

                                                                          Do what you have to do. I understand it is difficult to find a successful black man at your level of education.

                                                                          But, I am still saddened that our brightest and best take that away from our community into theirs. It would be nice of there were NO color boundaries. But, what that does is create a deeper lower-economic and educational chasm within the black community.

                                                                          But, I am proud of you that you have achieved success in the face of greater odds than most. :) Congrats.

                                                                            #22.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
                                                                            addiem

                                                                            A child with an African American mother is NOT going to be taken away from the community of black people. The mother is the keeper of the cultural flame, and like my cousin's wife, multiethnic kids will get the best of both worlds - and especially so in a higher socioeconomic environment.

                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                            #22.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:57 PM EDT
                                                                            WILDWONDERFUL

                                                                            duchess

                                                                            I wish you both the best

                                                                              #22.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:34 PM EDT
                                                                              Reply
                                                                              Road Warrior-1005773

                                                                              Can the problem be that most successful black women look like Oprah, 5 foot 5 and 190 pounds?

                                                                              • 4 votes
                                                                              Reply#23 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
                                                                              Phillyme

                                                                              That was ignorant and uncalled for.....think you need to Google photos of successful black women, pal. Perhaps the problem is what you are displaying here: prejudice, ignorance, lack of good judgement and overall common sense?

                                                                              • 6 votes
                                                                              #23.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:17 AM EDT
                                                                              Michael Buie

                                                                              Those may be the only ones YOU see. But, I know MANY black women of all color hues that look as beautiful as ANY model.

                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                              #23.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:19 AM EDT
                                                                              Ian Blokesworth

                                                                              The African-American obesity rate is higher. Men prefer to chase women that don't appear to be pregnant.

                                                                                #23.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:57 PM EDT
                                                                                Michael Buie

                                                                                I see an awful lot of fat white women running around, too. But, beautiful ones, too.

                                                                                It is a matter of taste. Most white men seem to like skinny-legged women with a flat butt and bones protruding.

                                                                                Some of us like a woman to have nice legs, a butt ... some proportion to her. My taste is not an obese woman. But, I've noticed that many white guys, for instrance, think the video vixens dancing in music videos are fat ... some of who I think are fine.

                                                                                I like curves ... and on a woman, they are very sensuous

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                #23.4 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:41 AM EDT
                                                                                msamericanpatriot

                                                                                Michael what white men want are FAKES. Think Pam Anderson with her FAKE hair color, FAKE lips, Fake tits, and FAKE butt. Sorry but this white woman thinks implants should be outlawed in vanity cases. Only thoes women who have lost one or both to breast cancer should have implants.

                                                                                  #23.5 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:35 AM EDT
                                                                                  inNM

                                                                                  Ian Blokesworth,

                                                                                  Have you seen some of the women that black men chase? It couldn't be they want a woman that does not look pregnant, because some of these women look like they're carrying multiple children. It's not a weight thing.

                                                                                    #23.6 - Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:37 AM EDT
                                                                                    Jaye Jaye

                                                                                    I've seen a lot of black men dating white women who are average height and 350-plus. That's very common where I live (midwest). So are you suggesting that for black women to get any attention from black men, we have to get bigger?

                                                                                    Seriously, there are different types for different men, and the size of women that men are attracted to varies widely (no pun intended), so just because some of you guys don't like larger women doesn't mean you can speak for every man or even most men. Besides, the height-weight charts do not take into account ethnic differences, particularly the fact that black women are simply built more muscularly (on average), meaning that a higher rate of black women will be classified as "overweight" even if they are, in fact, the correct weight for their build and height.

                                                                                    I'm a well-educated black woman who also happens to be a larger woman. The issues I've had with dating black men have had little to nothing to do with weight...I know women larger than me who have their choice of black men. Most of the issue is my education level and upbringing - because I don't speak in slang or "ebonics," and I have graduate-level education, a lot of black men have said that they can't relate to me. Most of the men I've dated have been white, and my weight has not been an issue. I'm currently engaged to a white man who has a pretty good education as well (although that's not the reason I'm with him).

                                                                                    This seems to come down to an expectation for black women to be more like white women to be dateable, which is not true. So if you're willing to pass up black women because we are simply not built like white women, it's your loss, not ours.

                                                                                    To increase our chances of dating, black women do not need to become like white or asiann women; black women need to be more willing to date outside of the race. Why should we be constrained when black men clearly are not?

                                                                                      #23.7 - Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:05 PM EDT
                                                                                      Jaye Jaye

                                                                                      I've seen a lot of black men dating white women who are average height and 350-plus. That's very common where I live (midwest). So are you suggesting that for black women to get any attention from black men, we have to get bigger?

                                                                                      Seriously, there are different types for different men, and the size of women that men are attracted to varies widely (no pun intended), so just because some of you guys don't like larger women doesn't mean you can speak for every man or even most men. Besides, the height-weight charts do not take into account ethnic differences, particularly the fact that black women are simply built more muscularly (on average), meaning that a higher rate of black women will be classified as "overweight" even if they are, in fact, the correct weight for their build and height.

                                                                                      I'm a well-educated black woman who also happens to be a larger woman. The issues I've had with dating black men have had little to nothing to do with weight...I know women larger than me who have their choice of black men. Most of the issue is my education level and upbringing - because I don't speak in slang or "ebonics," and I have graduate-level education, a lot of black men have said that they can't relate to me. Most of the men I've dated have been white, and my weight has not been an issue. I'm currently engaged to a white man who has a pretty good education as well (although that's not the reason I'm with him).

                                                                                      This seems to come down to an expectation for black women to be more like white women to be dateable, which is not true. So if you're willing to pass up black women because we are simply not built like white women, it's your loss, not ours.

                                                                                      To increase our chances of dating, black women do not need to become like white or asiann women; black women need to be more willing to date outside of the race. Why should we be constrained when black men clearly are not?

                                                                                        #23.8 - Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:02 AM EDT
                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                        harvSr

                                                                                        Like Dave Chapelle says "my favorite family"

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        Reply#24 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
                                                                                        Michael Buie

                                                                                        How simplistic some people think!

                                                                                        The author is NOT downgrading nor degrading women of color.

                                                                                        He is saying that, to other races (like white males, for instance) the trend is that the cultural background of a black woman is a net negative to them compared to that of a white woman or asian woman.

                                                                                        Duh!

                                                                                        I question some of the premises set by the author and his sources. But, the broad stroke of it is probably not far from reality, with some more caveats.

                                                                                        Actually, he did state it, but didn't delve into it more. He talked about how people tend to marry within their educational boundaries. If more educated and/or successful black women were supportive of men in blue-collar work fields, they would find more opportunities for marriage.

                                                                                        Cuts both ways, too. More men should be secure in their own status, where a successful, educated career black woman is not a threat to their dignity. But, that is hard to do if the woman lapses into an "I'm more accomplished than you" mode.

                                                                                          Reply#25 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:16 AM EDT
                                                                                          Phillyme

                                                                                          The "I'm more accomplished than you" attitude plays a huge role in this whole dynamic. Men need to be more secure in themselves and who they are. But, some women really need to stop being so emasculating and demeaning to men that approach them or the ones with whom they are already invloved. So what if you have a degree, high powered job and a huge house. Just easily as you have these things, it can be just as easily taken away.

                                                                                            #25.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:51 AM EDT
                                                                                            Ben Dover-427644Deleted
                                                                                            elock

                                                                                            Well, Ben Dover, with your stereotypes and childish moniker, I don't think you're the type of guy any educated woman would want to date, regardless of race.

                                                                                            There are lots of hot educated women out there. I'm proud to be one.

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #25.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:42 PM EDT
                                                                                            Ben Dover-427644Deleted
                                                                                            Ian Blokesworth

                                                                                            Ben Dover-427644, While I agree with your generalization, nost of the top 50 list is of 50+ year-old women, so judging them at that point in their life is unfair. There are a handful of women that were probably decent-looking in their youth, but their presentation a the business context reduces their attractiveness rating immensely. Particularly, their efeminized "post-fertility" hair cuts and corporate attire works against them. Would we judge them differently with face-only shots minus the big honking pearl earrings? This reminds of the survey in which women rating face shots of men differently when they were initially told the male was in one income level followed by a correction.

                                                                                            That said, men are attracted to youth and the promise of fertility. The average 20+ something man will gleefully stare at high school girls all day. You get older. They stay the same. I would guess that the average 20+ something woman would have zero sexual attraction to high school boys. Ladies, correct me if I'm wrong.

                                                                                              #25.5 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:32 PM EDT
                                                                                              Thom1111

                                                                                              Clearly you didn't look at the full list there Ben. Lisa Weber (METLife) and Marissa Mayer (Google) are hot. But then, you're just a troll.

                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                              #25.6 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:42 AM EDT
                                                                                              elock

                                                                                              Ben, I've got men trying to get with me almost daily. I can rock a miniskirt and turn heads, I hit the gym 4 times or more a week, and on my offtime I perform hula hoop dances. Most people, men and women, seem to find me pretty attractive. I'm not basing this on what I see in the mirror, but on what I've been told my entire life.

                                                                                              Sorry you're so intimidated by smart, attractive women that you're forced to stereotype us. You're missing out on a great thing.

                                                                                                #25.7 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:52 PM EDT
                                                                                                Ben Dover-427644Deleted
                                                                                                Ian Blokesworth

                                                                                                Ben Dover, agreed. Lisa Weber is not hot. Marisa Mayer would probably have been considered very cute ten years ago at 23. I'd say that Andrea Jung is currently hot. While we are unfairly judging these women at ages well past their prime, we may be surprised that perhaps 10% of that list may have been hot around age 20.

                                                                                                  #25.9 - Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:11 PM EDT
                                                                                                  elock

                                                                                                  I'm guessing that you're the fat one with ED. You have no idea how attractive I am, as you've never laid eyes on me. Even if you were the single hottest man on the face of the earth physically, your attitude makes you one ugly mofo, and I don't know any worthwhile women who would waste their time with a guy like you. I really feel sorry for you; clearly you feel so bad about yourself that you build yourself up by insulting people on the internet.

                                                                                                  And guess what? Many cute, successful men think beauty + brains = knockout. The only men who don't are usually not very intelligent, or have such low self-esteem that they can't take a woman who they view as competition.

                                                                                                  Drop the baggage, dude. Life is a lot happier when you stop being so judgmental and pull the stick out of your rear.

                                                                                                    #25.10 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:16 AM EDT
                                                                                                    msamericanpatriot

                                                                                                    Elock it is your ilk that pisses me the hell off. I chose to finish dressing yet I am told by shows like Millionare Matchmaker, Tough Love, What Not to Wear, and Charm School to dress like your pathetic kind. I am DAMN surprised I havent turned into a female verson of that guy in PA. If I was president I would enforce a dress code on women far more stricker than ANY catholic school can imagine.

                                                                                                      #25.11 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:41 AM EDT
                                                                                                      kay-1431309

                                                                                                      Thats your view. I like my wife sexy looking

                                                                                                        #25.12 - Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:06 AM EDT
                                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                                        Michael Buie

                                                                                                        I commend the author for tackling this thorny issue. Though it may be unimportant to some, it is important to me that we study the myriad ways African-Americans climb the success ladder more slowly, as a group.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        Reply#26 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:18 AM EDT
                                                                                                        greencomet

                                                                                                        amen

                                                                                                          #26.1 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:04 PM EDT
                                                                                                          brewzky23

                                                                                                          It's called lazy, generational welfare that is ingrained into the african american culture by people like Obama. (or the Dem philosophy) Why do you think he is trying to pass so many socialist programs. To keep as many people as possible completely dependant on the government for their everyday existence. It's a shame, he doesn't do something to promote programs that encourage people to try and better themselves. If he holds them down, it's much easier to win elections by being their caretaker.

                                                                                                          I love to see successful "people" color blind. Making this a racial issue is interesting, but has more to do with why black women can not find an equivalent black man that is successful. Many successful black men choose do date/marry white women.

                                                                                                          I think this author should be discussing that more so than why a successful black woman remains single. It's seldom you see the opposite. A successful white man with a black woman.

                                                                                                          Quite frankly, you can apply this same topic to successful white women.

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          #26.2 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:55 PM EDT
                                                                                                          lw-340714

                                                                                                          I agree. I found that the article told volumes of truths about black women and their prospects in live. All any woman has basically wanted, was a man who can adequately provide for her and their offspring. Men use to not need an education to do that. But now farming and industry jobs are vastly declined. And the media sends the message to our young men that they are too good for hard labor. And though you have 71 % of black women finishing grad school, that says that only 29 % of black men are meeting the challenge of educating themselves to be able to provide for a middle class existance. They rave about Michelle Obama choice in selecting Obama for a mate; but when he came out of an ivy league school and decided that he wanted to be a 'community organizer" , I would NOT have been the woman to join him in that adventure. Michelle did what many black women have to do: marry the best that they can happen upon, and then hope for the best. It just happens that things worked out for her.

                                                                                                            #26.3 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:09 PM EDT
                                                                                                            Erika-960357

                                                                                                            Iw

                                                                                                            Really??

                                                                                                              #26.4 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:08 PM EDT
                                                                                                              GK-298121

                                                                                                              All any woman has basically wanted, was a man who can adequately provide for her and their offspring.

                                                                                                              What planet are you from? Are you caught in some time warp? I've never wanted either of the above. I make my own living, and I don't want kids (my own or steps). I'm looking for a peer, not someone who wants me dependent on him, which is his license to cheat, abuse, etc.

                                                                                                              I'm tired of men saying bad things about women who won't settle. Man up, develop your brain and make something of yourself!

                                                                                                                #26.5 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:57 AM EDT
                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 ... 5
                                                                                                                Leave a Comment:
                                                                                                                You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
                                                                                                                You're in XHTML Mode. If you prefer, you can use Easy Mode instead.
                                                                                                                (XHTML tags allowed - a,b,blockquote,br,code,dd,dl,dt,del,em,h2,h3,h4,i,ins,li,ol,p,pre,q,strong,ul)
                                                                                                                Newsvine Privacy Statement
                                                                                                                As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
                                                                                                                FUN STUFF:
                                                                                                                • Leaderboard |
                                                                                                                • E-Mail Alerts |
                                                                                                                • Top of the Vine |
                                                                                                                • Newsvine Live |
                                                                                                                • Newsvine Archives |
                                                                                                                • The Greenhouse
                                                                                                                COMPANY STUFF:
                                                                                                                • Code of Honor |
                                                                                                                • Company Info |
                                                                                                                • Contact Us |
                                                                                                                • Jobs |
                                                                                                                • User Agreement |
                                                                                                                • Privacy Policy |
                                                                                                                • About our ads
                                                                                                                LEGAL STUFF:
                                                                                                                • © 2005-2012 Newsvine, Inc. |
                                                                                                                • Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
                                                                                                                • Newsvine is a property of msnbc.com