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Big employers dip into health care debate

Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:06 AM EDT
business, health, us-business, obama, only-on-msnbc-com, care, reform, wall-street-journal, starbucks, whole-foods, ginsburg
msnbc.com News — By Allison Linn

Rick Watts, 49, protests outside a Whole Foods store in West Hollywood, Calif., Sunday, Aug. 23, 2009. The protest took place after John Mackey, the CEO of Whole Foods Market, wrote an op-ed piece for the Wall Street Journal about health care reform. (AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

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— The debate over health care reform isn’t just drawing heated viewpoints from town halls to the halls of Congress — it’s also a hot topic of public discussion at some major U.S. companies.

Experts say corporate executives, who may normally keep quiet about other controversial matters, are speaking out about health care reform for the same reason they do most things: the potential impact to the bottom line.

“They’re crying out just because they’re desperate to control costs,” said Paul Fronstin, director of the health research program at the Employee Benefit Research Institute.

It’s no secret that health care costs have increased dramatically over the past few years, and for many companies those higher bills have added to the financial burdens they are already facing because of the recession.

In turn, that’s pushed some companies to advocate for health care reform in the hopes that they can have a say in a plan that would provide them some financial relief, whether through broader coverage, electronic records or other new measures.

“We have worked very hard on our own, in the face of these rising health care costs, to provide quality, affordable coverage, and we know the challenge of trying to do that,” said Greg Rossiter, a spokesman for Wal-Mart, which has been vocal on the issue. “We think we have a pretty good idea of what has worked and hasn’t worked, and so we felt that we had something to say and it was based on pretty solid experience.”

Still, taking a public stance on such a hot-button topic as health care reform carries significant risks, especially if customers, employees or business groups disagree with a company’s views. Some have found it safer to stay on the sidelines.

“This is a train ride that’s verging on a roller coaster. Why get on the roller coaster at this point?” said Jon Oberlander, an associate professor at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.

Companies’ views vary widely
While companies ranging from Starbucks to Safeway have advocated for health care reform, their views on what a final plan should look like vary widely.

Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest private employer, has thrown its support behind an employer mandate, which would require more employers to provide health care coverage. Some business groups, such as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, oppose such a mandate.

Experts speculate that the company is pushing for such a mandate because it wants to level the playing field by forcing its competitors to take on the same cost burden it does.

The company concedes it has a competitive concern.

“Obviously if a competitor of ours is not providing health care to their associates, they’re able to run their business at a lower cost … and yet Wal-Mart and everyone else is picking up the cost,” Rossiter said.

Reputation issues
Many also see Wal-Mart’s efforts on health care reform as a way for the company to burnish its image. Wal-Mart has for years been dogged by complaints that its health care benefits weren’t good enough, and it has been working in the past couple of years to improve its plans.

“In part this was strategic, politically,” Oberlander said.

The stakes are also high for companies like Starbucks, which has built its reputation on being the kind of employer that provides health care even to part-time baristas earning low wages and now is struggling with the cost burden of such promises.

The company’s health care costs will total $290 million in 2009, a 30 percent increase over 2005, Chief Executive Howard Schultz said in a letter to the Obama administration earlier this year in which he generally supported health care reform.

The letter warned that such costs have been difficult to bear in the current recession.

“Like many businesses, the economic slowdown has forced us to re-examine how we provide health care benefits to our employees,” Schultz said in the letter.

Paul Ginsburg, president of the Center for Studying Health System Change, said Starbucks also may be pushing for health care reform in part because it is, at this point, also facing a competitive disadvantage to those coffee houses who don’t provide insurance.

“If you’re going to be a barista, of course you go to Starbucks if you have health problems,” he said.

Starbucks spokeswoman Deb Trevino said the company had no comment beyond its public letters on the topic.

While Wal-Mart and Starbucks may be seeing a public relations benefit to jumping into the health care debate, other corporate executives are finding that their efforts to insert themselves into the public debate are drawing controversy.

Whole Foods, the high-end grocery store chain, has been facing heated calls for a boycott ever since the chain’s chief executive, John Mackey, wrote an editorial in the Wall Street Journal advocating for a high-deductible health care plan like the one Whole Foods offers.

Under such plans, employees generally have to pay a certain amount out of pocket before insurance kicks in.

Mackey’s conservative-leaning views, including the theory that health care shouldn’t be considered an intrinsic right, drew considerable fire from some of Whole Foods’ liberal-leaning customers.

Whole Foods spokeswoman Libba Letton said that Mackey was expressing his own opinion, rather than the company’s.

Still, Letton said that, as a company, Whole Foods has expressed concern about health care reform that would threaten its current health plan.

“We are wary of any changes or mandates that would make it harder for us to continue providing the kind of health care plan we do now,” Letton said.

On Thursday, CtW Investment Group, which works with union pension funds who hold Whole Food shares, called on Whole Foods' board of directors to oust Mackey because of the op-ed piece. Whole Foods' workers are not unionized.

Drawing from experience
Other corporate executives also are using their own experiences as the basis for arguing how health care reform should look.

Safeway Chief Executive Steven Burd, also writing in the Wall Street Journal earlier this year, claimed that his grocery chain has been able to keep health care costs down by offering a discount on health care premiums if employees do things like stop smoking or maintain a healthy weight.

Burd argues that such a plan, which focuses on personal responsibility for good health, could be applied nationally and reduce health care costs significantly.

A Safeway spokeswoman said no one was available to comment beyond the public statements.

Ginsburg said executives who have seen success saving money for their own large workforce may be sharing those results in part because they truly believe that their on-the-ground experience can help shape a better health care plan.

"You want other people to know about it in the legitimate hope that they’ll learn from it,” Ginsburg said.

Still, Ginsburg said, it’s tough to say whether corporate efforts can translate on a broader level. For example, a plan like Safeway’s, which requires those who want a discount to provide information such as their weight, may be distasteful to people who don’t want the government or an insurance company to know such things about them.

It could also be a political landmine.

“It’s really hard to see politicians going out and being seen as beating up on the obese people,” Ginsburg said.

Corporate executives may also find that their plans have worked because of the demographics of their work force, and that such plans wouldn’t work for another employer, let alone an entire nation.

“Should politicians listen to what they’re saying? Yeah, they should certainly pay attention to what they’re doing and what they’re finding, but it doesn’t mean that politicians should take what they’re doing and nationalize it,” Fronstin said. “Just because it works for Whole Foods doesn’t mean it would work for FedEx.”

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mike-1275418

The average company pays 400 to 600 dollars per employee per month for health care and in order to make a profit and stay in business, they have to get you the consumer to pay this cost now. A public option eliminates the need to pay for insurance industry profits and Governance costs (think fat salary for the CEO) and we know the public option will have reduced service costs becuase it can negotiate as a large consumer with hospitals and drug companies. So the bottom line is everything we buy will have fewer costs attached to it due to the constantly rising cost of health care IF WE GET A PUBLIC OPTION.

  • 26 votes
#1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:25 AM EDT
NativeOregonian

I agree that we need the public option. It creates a more level playing field for businesses and healthy workers means better productivity. Unfortunately some big businesses don't want their competitors to be able to provide their employees with the same kind of health care they do. It's a greed-based argument. It's about the money, not the people.

As for Mackey of Whole Foods, he was already the focus of controversy back in 2007 concerning unethical business practices and they were considering giving him the boot. Why he is still CEO I have no idea. I certainly wouldn't trust him as an employer, and I certainly wouldn't want him managing my health care money.

  • 25 votes
#1.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:56 AM EDT
Chris-537131

mike,

You are wrong on several levels:

1) Companies have target of expectations of 25-40% profit annually. This is up from 6-12% profit in the previous 2,000 years. A little less greed would easily pay for health care (but the shareholders would fire the CEO.) $400-600 isn't going to sway the profit picture. Greed is greed. One of the reasons we can't compete with countries like China is their willingness to accept 6% profit. Most of the companies that face the decision between staying in business and providing health care just dump health care. (And they also lose the ability to attract top-tier employees at the same time.)

2) If there was a public option, companies would have to contribute to that option if they chose not to provide health coverage. They would not be allowed to just dump and run. None of the five bills under consideration allow that. Most plans scale the amount the company pays to either number of employees or gross profit. I think the bottom end employer contribution for a small business is about $80/mo/emp.

3) I agree with the rest of your remarks about a public option. The administrative load for government-supplied health care is hugely lower than for-profit companies because there is no profit and the administrative loading is much, much lower. Medicare and Medicaid are good examples. TriCare and the VA system are others (though the VA is so underfunded that its health care costs appear much lower than they should be if they were properly funded.)

4) Companies in this country look at the Canadian system and see how those companies have benefited. The improved competitiveness of Canadian companies due to nationalized health care is one of the reasons (plus selling us lots of oil and timber and diamonds) that the Canadian dollar has pulled even with the American dollar.

  • 13 votes
#1.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:02 AM EDT
Arthur-379160

Medical Care overhead expenses for Medicare are well below 5%, but for private health insurance companies it is over 30%.

This is the reason many large corporations are self-insured, and only use insurance companies for claims processing (paperwork).

  • 2 votes
#1.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:03 PM EDT
John-638398

Until Insurance Companies are converted from being FOR PROFIT to not for profit, we are going to have this problem with soaring costs in insurance.

  • 15 votes
#1.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:18 PM EDT
George-798104

Exactly! Current healthcare system does not even cost the same to the insured and the uninsured! If you are not insured, your bill will be 10 times the insured patient. If you are small company guy, you will pay 10 times compared to big company health insurance cost. These injustices can be fixed with a government run plan. The healthcare industry can sustain itself with lower income. Everywhere in the world, healthcare is cheaper than the US. Current system is broken!

We must unload our employers from this burden so that they are not reluctant to hire people. Otherwise the economy is going south badly:

http://www.tradingstocks.net/html/free_download.html

  • 11 votes
#1.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:29 PM EDT
popeyethesailorDeleted
GregL-671049

Yeah, Lets have national health Care so the taxpayer can subsidize the Walton family..Walmart can well afford health care for their workers,their just too cheap...I worked for the GE,i will bet my last dollar they are foaming at the mouth in anticipation of a government plan...They are now self insured,but have different company's administering the plans,like CDPHP,Blue Cross,etc... They will drop their plans,it one of their hot button issues each time it's contract time...

You can bet there will be more big company's coming out for this....Let's put it on the back of the taxpayer..

  • 3 votes
#1.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:03 PM EDT
Charles McKenzie

So far we have intelligent discussion about the pros and cons of a public option. I wish you guys were the leaders in the public option debate instead of the screaming fear mongers we're dealing with in every town hall meeting.

  • 5 votes
#1.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:19 PM EDT
stronghorse

Business wants free employee health care but their taxes will go up to pay for it.

No such thing as a free lunch!

  • 4 votes
#1.9 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:19 PM EDT
Road Warrior-1005773

Why is the Obama administration giving lawyers a free pass?

  • 5 votes
#1.10 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:26 PM EDT
GK-298121

John & George - not-for-profit insurance isn't the solution. CareFirst BC/BS in the mid-Atlantic is structured this way, but you wouldn't know if from the premiums, deductibles, co-pays and executive salaries.

    #1.11 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:30 PM EDT
    Oh dear loard

    In response to gregl...... Aren't the people that work at these companies tax payers? I don't understand your arguement. At this point If I were to pay just what my 40% co-pay is I could have a $325.00 more in taxes per month and still come out even. Higher taxes doesn't always mean less money in the end.

    • 2 votes
    #1.12 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
    Persevere

    HEY – CALLING ALL POSTERS – YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE

    REQUIRED READING FOR TODAY POST #1.2 FROM CHRIS 537131

    That takes in a substantial consideration, which is, do you want to be more informed?

    I posted my ideas on this very subject, relative to my experience in the restaurant business and my conversations with friends in said industry. Including the young I've spoken too in reference to their employment insurance. I feel vindicated, Oh happy day.

    So long……………..

    • 1 vote
    #1.13 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
    Joanna Caroll

    John, Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of NJ is a not for profit company.   NP status is no guarantee that costs will be controlled when you have CEOs and boards of directors enabling enormous payouts to each other and to what everyone is too quick to call 'talent'.  There is no such thing as talent, people - you only need to refer to this current economical debacle caused in large part by the talent.  Key employees paid multiple millions do not talent make.  Put a public option on the table and let these overpaid men and women learn what competition really means.

    • 4 votes
    #1.14 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:22 PM EDT
    Persevere

    Post Script:

    Get on the "Public Option" Team, and if you get to a pass to board this "Public

    Option" Glory Train,

    you're going love the ride...........Its called competition in the piblic interest.....

    • 2 votes
    #1.15 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:23 PM EDT
    w k

    Public option will lower health care cost, therfore. bussiness will pay less for insurance companies for employee health care,. the same %, but lower cost makes it less. thats good for all bussiness/companies and good for the economy as a whole. I think deflation of cost, then US can compete in global economy. Health care cost, energy cost and taxes. I hope the will have public option for energy, you can buy "Big Oil" energy or buy cheaper solar and wind. In 5 years, cost will be the same with solar across the united states, while "Big oil" and "King Coal" keep on raising their prices every year.

    • 2 votes
    #1.16 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:26 PM EDT
    Toby-365107

    Hey Greg, my brother also retired from GE and is now on Medicare. His supplemental insurance for he and his wife, still paid for by GE, one of the few companies that still do... Also, Walmart's health plan is from that Billy Mays infomercial..

      #1.17 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:29 PM EDT
      ivan, NC

      NativeOregonian......the businesses you refer to must be in the health care fields.,..I am sure they are doing their best tp protect their profits...for sure they want no competition if they can help it...and they are all spending huge sums of money on senators , thousands of dollars, to make sure they profits are protected. The senators that are writing the haelth care bill, or at least one of them...are all drawing huge amounts of money fromhealth care companies and insurers,,yet they claim this is not a bribe....I can not see it as anything else. And if you check how the votes go and by whom...and then look at the amounts of money they received...it just makes you wonder, or at least it does me, just how good of a representation we are getting from our politicans...personally...I sure don't think we get our moneys worth..

      • 2 votes
      #1.18 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:51 PM EDT
      Greg-838903

      The money for the "public option" will not come out of thin air! It will come from increased taxes. Which will result in less money being spent on goods and services!

      • 1 vote
      #1.19 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:55 PM EDT
      slowclimber

      A public option will NOT lower the cost to the consumer. Somebody here already said it. TINSTAFL - There is no such thing as a free lunch. Let's examine a few, non-"fear mongering" points.

      1) Why is the administrative cost high in private insurance in many cases? To a very large extent - government mandates. For example, does anyone have any concept of the cost to the provider (and consumer) for HIPAA? Anyone have any idea what FISMA is going to do to that cost?

      2) "Competition - meaning public option - will lower costs". Nope. People completely miss the point. The left wing radicals would have you believe that because an EMPLOYEE doesn't always have a choice in terms of what insurance company they get, there is no "competition". That couldn't be further from the truth. First of all, larger companies DO have multiple providers that employees can choose from. But beyond that, the EMPLOYERS are ALWAYS shopping for the most cost-effective solution. So, I'm having a REAL hard time understanding how there is somehow more competition when the employee chooses on their own than when the employer chooses from among multiple choices. I guess it's that liberal math.

      3) "Private insurance is expensive because of factcat ceo compensation". Again, not true. Frankly, this is from the "fear mongering" "class envy" left wing liberals. Here's an idea for those who aren't math challenged or who can actually operate a calculator or excel. Take a look at executive comp for that "talent". Now, take a look at operating expenses. BTW - here's a tip - if it's a public company you get look at the filings as easily as on Yahoo finance. Hopefully you're not SO prone to avoiding actual education that you won't try. Now, take a look at the percentage of operating expense made up by executive compensation. Guess what? In general, it's less than 1/10 of 1 percent. Wow! If we cut it all, we'll save a whopping - oh, nothing.

      4) "Companies can operate cheaper in China because of lower health care costs" - or "One of the reasons we can't compete with countries like China is their willingness to accept 6% profit". Not to call anyone out here (Chris) but you're WAY off base. Why can they beat us? Because their standard of living, and their chief operations expense (personnel) is so much less expensive. Like $250/month in the Shenzhen region. Their margins are WAY WAY WAY higher than 6%. Believe me, I know.

      5) "The government can be trusted for Health Care because they've got experience with Medicare, and the Military - including the VA and TRICARE". Wrong again, buckwheat. Medicare has been on life support for years. Only "extreme measures" continue to keep it afloat. The VA is incredibly underfunded, and is largely a disgrace to our former uniformed services. TRICARE? You've GOT to be kidding. TRICARE (formerly CHAMPUS), is a inefficient and frankly poor quality health care program. How do I know? I had it. For 23 years. First of all, in order to get reasonable care, you are recommended to purchase "Co-Insurance" - otherwise you will not be eligible for many services, and our out of pocket expenses will be very high. Their is no guarantee of service. It is so very poor that during the majority of my army career while my wife was also employed full time (civilian) we paid out of our pocket for an HMO plan through her employer rather than using my "free" health care. Both of my kids were born using that HMO. Because of complications with my son, we were incredibly thankful that we did this. Had we relied on TRICARE, frankly my son would probably not have survived. The care required during the first 2 months of his life was not considered "approved" by TRICARE.

      People are so hung up on class envy that they seem to have lost the ability to actually have logical, unbiased thought based on real information. Not the drivel from MSNBC. Not even the stuff from Fox. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this stuff if you REALLY want to open your mind. The problem here is that either there are no minds to open, or the doors are locked (and nobody is home).

      • 6 votes
      #1.20 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:01 PM EDT
      Dennis-956826

      Mike... that is great rationale... the only problem is, that it works entirely the opposite of what you said.  It's like looking at earth from outer space... You might think everyone lives at the south pole because they slide down the big ball.  But things are not always as they appear.

      The fact is, Everything costs more with a single payer system.  Not just medical expenses, but everything you buy, every service you use.  I have spoken with people in England.  THEY told me that National Health Care has ruined their economy.  THEY told me if there is any way that we can prevent it in the USA, we better do it.  THEY told me that the price of everything went up to cover health costs that individual businesses would have had to pay.  I am for health care reform... but Obama care is NOT the solution.  Even more important, Obama care is the Next Big Step toward Marxism.

      • 2 votes
      #1.21 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:14 PM EDT
      elchiparoso

      Native O, He is still CEO because in a capitalist society, he is doing what he is suppose to do. He is keeping operating cost down, by having the employees self insure themselves before the insurance kicks in.

      I think his statements should be welcomed and taken as a wake up call for all those that are soo soo comfortable with their employer paid health insurance plans. His statements indicate for many Americans that it is time to pay the piper, that the good times are starting to come to an end. As I have said many times in my bloggs, we Americans tend to be reactive instead of proactive. We need to get knocked around before we see that we have a problem that has to be taken care.

      We have had leaders in government that had foresight and saw the problem forty years ago. These men and women were way ahead of their time. These were proactive men and women. We seem to ignore people that have the ability to see into the future. We ridicule them instead of listening to them. Thank God for the Progressive men and women in our country and world. Without these progressive men and women we would always be in a hole.

        #1.22 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:15 PM EDT
        Wanda Murline

        If you get a public option that will lead to a single payer provision and then the government will do what they are trying to do and that is control the insurance industry. The bottom line for companies is what these people are concerned about, not the worker. As soon as the public option is done, they will cease and dissist from offering insurance...it will be better for their bottom line to pay the fine each year for not offering insurance as this will be cheaper than paying for your insurance. Insurance has always had a deductible that you have to pay out of your pocket, at least for the last 30+ years. If you think health care needs reform now, wait until the government is in charge. The laws of economics has not disappeared..the government just does not use them anymore. There is no way in hell that America can foot the bill for health care reform in its current capacity unless benefits are reduced and taxes are raised. Obama says he won't raise taxes, but beware...there are a lot of tax breaks that were put into place by Bush, and they are about to expire. I am sure that you won't see this on the liberal news medias, but it will happen and you and everyone else will be paying more taxes, but Obama didn't raise them, he just let the breaks disappear. Seniors will be the most affected. This is the first year that people on social security will not get a cost of living raise. Okay, you say so what...we don't need social security anyways. Maybe you are right, but I paid into the fund for 46 years and it was to be in a special fund used only for the social security program. In 1964, President Johnson saw all of this money sitting in this special fund and started putting (stealing) those funds for the general fund. Now, it is time for me to get my money back....just like any retirement system...and the government has spent it all. If they can't run social security, the post office, and medicare and medicaid, what makes you think they can run health care? Of yes, they are exempting themselves from having to participate, which is ridiculous.

        • 4 votes
        #1.23 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:20 PM EDT
        Dennis-956826

        I see that once again the whining liberals were given their marching orders to saturate the blogs with their distorted misinformation. Why would anyone but a plant be for this POS legislation when there is NO WAY our faltering economy can support it. Don't you whiners get it? It is not cost effective... Obama lies. It WILL RUIN OUR ECONOMY. NHC It will drive us deep into Marxism and then "Cap and Trade" will be the spike in our hearts that will keep us there for generations. This is not a scare tactic... this is the truth. Why can't you see it, those of you that support it? It is obvious to me what does to this nation.

        • 3 votes
        #1.24 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:28 PM EDT
        truthhurtssometimes

        I think that the solution is to make all health insurance, hospitals, and pharmaceutical corporations into non-profit organizations. All of these are too closely related to health care cost, and profit should not be a consideration when we are talking about health care. Profiting from the illness injuries and death of human beings is barbaric and has no place in modern civilization.

        You could give all employees of these industries a 10-20% raise and still save a great deal of money (how about that for economic stimulus, more disposable income for all instead of a couple of execs). There are several known business models which work quite well with no executives, and no owner, and no profit margin.

          #1.25 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:31 PM EDT
          larry-292879

          dennis i think its you that dont get it..you right wingers are against abortion,but once the baby is born he is on his own..in other words you dont really care about people ,just being right.Obama is the president of the united states of america not fox or rush.... i lived under bush cheny for 8 years with lies and fear and a whole lot of money being spent on a war we should not have started because now we have irain the strongest nation over there... its was bushes watch that broke this country if you remmember right the ones running for president had to come back to washigton to vote on bushes stimuless bill...so quit watching fox news...give up your ditto head status and start being a real american

            #1.26 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:43 PM EDT
            Mary rogers

            Did all you liberals fall off the JFK wagon? What happend to "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?" This country has a free economy we can all become business owners if we choose, and we should all give back to our country by insuring or sharing the cost with our employees. My company pays for my insurance and shares w/me the cost of my family. That is very fair. I should be partially responsible for my family not the government. The big corporations pay their CEO's enough and their profit line is enough to be able to help their employee w/cost. I even know of small businesses that make millions and give their employees benefits and i know small businesses to be just as greedy as large corporations. Our system does need correction but not by taking our freedom of choice. When did all of you become government "welfare" minded?

            • 2 votes
            #1.27 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:09 PM EDT
            GOZO-unlimited

            The FDA isn't helping....

            FDA Deputy Commissioner Joshua Sharfstein has given his seal of approval to major mercury exposure for millions of America’s children and unborn children -- and to covering up both the neurological risks and the flawed rulemaking process.
            Despite admitting that amalgam causes mercury exposure -- and despite knowing that mercury causes neurological harm to developing brains -- Sharfstein rejects putting on contraindications for amalgam, rejects putting on warnings on amalgam and even rejects a requirement that dentists tell patients that amalgam is mainly mercury.

            Sharfstein even withdraws the FDA’s website warning that dental mercury can cause permanent neurological harm to children and unborn children. Sharfstein’s rule actually says the FDA wants to stop a decline in amalgam sales. At Joshua Sharfstein’s FDA, commerce trumps safety.

            The FDA doesn’t even defend its rule on the science. The FDA admits it does not know if mercury fillings are safe for children 6 and under, for pregnant women, or for nursing mothers whose mercury goes through breast milk.

            No, it’s not science -- it’s about commerce. The FDA wants Americans to keep buying amalgam.

            The children of America have lost. Another generation will be mercury toxic.

            Disgusting...huh?

              #1.28 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:24 PM EDT
              Dennis-956826

              Hey Larry... Did You write that song, "I've got plenty of nothin'", because that is just what you said, nothin'. Even though it is said, "You should never argue with an idiot because he will pull you down to his level and beat you with experience", Let me address some of your rantings, just for fun.

              Yes, I am against abortion, even if I know that when a woman carries that child to full term. it will lead to someone just like you. No one should be able to take an innocent life, especially the one person who is suppose to protect that child, and love that child the most. Proponents say that it is HER body, she should be able to do what she wants... maybe have not thought that it is not HER body that is going to die, but the child's. This is one of many reasons I am against Obama care... It will pay for abortions.

              I am not sure where you came up with, "but once the baby is born he is on his own..in other words you dont really care about people ,just being right." I haven't a clue what you base that on, but it is not true. But thank you for acknowledging the fact that I am right.

              Yes, Obama is president. Did someone tell you different? Since you were alive during the Bush presidency, I am assuming you were not high all of the time? If you remember, Intelligence sources from several different countries stated that Sadam had WMD's. There were warning placed time after time through the United Nations. Almost a unanimous bi partisan majority of Congress voted for President Bush to have war powers to handle the Iraqi situation. To blame Bush for going to war with Iraq is unwarranted, and close minded. It was the majority of America, and the majority of Congress that should take responsibility.

              There are many factors that led to an economic slow down. Chief among them was the subprime mortgages pushed through by Barney Franke and Chris Dodd, both Democrats, and a Democrat majority in the House and Senate. There was also a Democrat majority in the senate and house when Bush signed the first stimulus package. I was against that stimulus too. But at least his stimulus went to the people instead of a payback porkulus bill to that Obama forced through to payback his supporters. So far Obama has spent more money than Bush did in 8 years. We are broke. Thanks Obama!! Time to quit spending now!!!

              I seldom watch Fox News... but maybe you should add it to your sources of information. It is apparent that you are getting limited information and are unable to think clearly for yourself.

              • 1 vote
              #1.29 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:42 PM EDT
              RobWI

              I am getting sick of this entire debate as it will never be "for the people" or what would be best for the majority anyways. We need to get the employers out of the equation, they just use it as a Machiavellian tool to enslave their "employees" by saying it is a carrot (benefit).

              We should have a high deductible (say $2500-5000) public option plan funded by a national sales tax (no dipping either for other programs), say 5%. That way even those in the immortality years (18-30) will still participate. Make medical debt unsecured and no pre-existing conditions exemptions for the providers. Have private or employer supplied insurance for covering the deductibles, co-pays, and elective surgeries (like a boob job or ???), that way we can still have some semblance of a private system and carrots for the slave drivers. This talking about 17+% of the GNP stuff is a bunch of BS, a single life is worth more than that.

                #1.30 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:43 PM EDT
                palco

                Dennis-956826

                I'm always skeptical when I read "someone in that country told me", Having lived under the British health care system and before they revamped in in the 90's , I can say from experience is was one of the better health care systems I have been fortunate enough to enjoy, The Danes and the Swedes have a slight edge but deal with less poverty. The business owners I have talked to have made the comment that if they had to deal with the American style private insurance to them it would be a nightmare with the constant manipulated cost and instability caused by not being able to look at long term costs and projections, which I believe is one of the problems with our business models, we typically look for hi yield, quick return, short term projections, mostly instigated by wall street and driven deep into our business physic. The interesting thing that keeps happening is we are debating as if this was nation health being proposed ( which I do admit I prefer) the reality is this is not national health plan only a government option to work as a comparative cost stabilizer for the premiums being paid and about the only thing national is the idea of everyone being covered which will also help bring down (the hidden) costs. I do have to admit this is the first post in awhile with intelligent arguments being put forth ( thus far) whether for or against, If all of us were sitting in a congressional meeting hall this would be called "Process", unfortunately in congress and out here this is the exception, will enjoy reading on hopefully both the for and against ideas if they stay above ignorance pandering.

                • 1 vote
                #1.31 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:20 PM EDT
                palco

                slowclimber

                Every government program has been fought tooth and nail , and the ones who oppose any government run program do their best to sabotage these programs by lack of funding or putting in obstacles to manipulate failure, If I was into conspiracies I would say the right wing of our political arena believe we should bankrupt the nation or convince the American people we are bankrupt, to get them to willingly submit to dismantling all social and in general all programs that have benefit to a collective America, to all the people as stated in our Constitution that gives us basically a overview of how the founding fathers thought a better nation could be. In the sixties the blue dogs and the right wing inserted laws to keep family's apart by eliminating the man from the household and ensuring the breakdown of the family in poor America, the back door rules that stop payments to someone who is trying to get out of poverty by working part time to have a income not based in one step away from disaster living and in Lu of the hopes of full time job or talking classes or being abel to find day care, Free day care was one of the most beneficial programs for not only poor America, but for middle Cass America, it would take a novel to go on about the backward steps we keep taking in this country, instead of seeing programs through and moving towards a more enlightened and proposer society, we keep falling on ideology to regress us back to the starting point over and over and over again. I see why they never really went after the man who is probably in Pakistan who knows, If you have your devil,satin,your fear symbol you can control the finance's, as Ike said " the military industrial complex may be the greatest threat to our nation security even more than communism itself." This whole arguement today is really about priorites, do we as a nation spend our money on the people and the society and intrafrstructure or do we keep dirverting our wealth to the very few ?

                • 1 vote
                #1.32 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:08 PM EDT
                Dennis-956826

                palco I am always skeptical when I read, "Having lived under the Brittish Health Care system..." A healthy sense of skepticism is good to have. I have read many of your posts in Newsvine, which gives me another reason to be skeptical of you...lol. You do not just lean to the left, your left leg is a foot shorter than your right. You think liberals are "enlightened". I think many are just misguided, some are plain evil, and many are in "it" to get something for free. Some are Idealists with a messed up sense of reality, thinking only as far as their noses, and not looking at what their decisions may invoke.

                You wrote: "it would take a novel to go on about the backward steps we keep taking in this country, instead of seeing programs through and moving towards a more enlightened and proposer society"

                I do not see enlightenment here at all. I see Obama care as a step backward... I see Obama care as a HUGE step toward Marxism. I do not want big government taking more of my freedom. I think you are being very naive to think that this is not NHC. Why do you think the Liberals tried to ram it through Congress before anyone read it? Yes, it may have evolved somewhat from the total Socialized health care plan it was intended to be, that remains to be seen, but it is still too much that way to suit me. It is far more than what you pretend it to be. It is NOT just a cost stabilizer... It is not going to bring down costs at all... the CBO stated that it would not save any money, and could be several times more expensive than current health care plans. That is the BIG argument among Democrats now... How can we pay for it? That.... and, "If we do this alone without the Repubs on board, and this tanks (Like I know it will), we are done.... period." The Dems have the votes... They can blame NO ONE but themselves. The people are against it.... and the conservatives are against it. When it fails, when it's costs sky rocket, when there is health care rationing, when the quality of care goes down the tubes, there will be Democrat Hell to pay.

                • 1 vote
                #1.33 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:16 PM EDT
                palco

                Dennis-956826

                You wish to label me as liberal, thank you, as I do not take that as an insult, you say you don't want your freedom limited, its limited every day by the none competitive, unregulated, manipulated markets, that have nothing to do with supply and demand concepts, you say the NHC is a failed concept and it has failed all over the world ?prove it..we pay more for health care than any nation in the world for less coverage and inferior health care, meaning lacking preventive care to help intervene and prevent catastrophic illness and diminish emergency room visits. Since you want the label of liberal I will say (not conservative) the necon right who delivered medicare prescription bill in 2003 gave us tremendous cost and deficits by inserting a law that the U.S. Government CANNOT NEGOCIATE THE PRICE OF PRESCRIPTION DRUGS WITH THE PHARMACEITUCIALS. The federal government is the largest buyer of prescription drugs in this nation..say it ain't so Joe the plumber. Is this the free enterprise non government interference you are talking about. Frankly you lose you credibility when you say the Obama Marxist government, if that was even remotely true he would have taken over every financial institution (which he does have the power to do with the "Tort law" if it is a threat to our economic security) and nationalized them never to return them to the private sector...and that didn't and has not happened and will not happen as he is not a Marxist or socialist or fascist as often he is referred to by unknowing and illiterate people. You asked why they tried to ram down and have a quick vote..I assume its because of the propaganda they new was coming and is here, if you do not believe in a national health plan or a single payer option (a hybrid of private and governmental coverage) say so with thought out arguments or philosophy not flat out lies about national health and scare tactics (you guys love scaring older people and I assume children also) and propaganda the was used for sixty years. Except for corporate tax cuts what has the Republican party suggested to solve the financial,unemployment, health care,foreign policy and just about everything we have to deal with, I have heard nothing except "we can't do this ,we can't do that. And every attempt is greeted with a slogan of the above mentioned. Before the election a Republican study group suggested that Liberal did not have the same frighting power it has had since the Regan years, so the report concluded that more severe labels might be tried to see if a positive(in their minds) outcome could result. None of this is really about health care, its about obstruction until the next election in hope of regaining power to continue the destruction of the middle class and the punishment of the poor and the dismantling of the social systems in this nation, so in the end we will have a cheep labor force to be manipulated as needed. A two class system,one very small and wealthy one at the top and a very large economically indentured pool of slaves at the bottom, hence tremendous control and profits. There I have strayed off the point but it is after all interrelated

                • 1 vote
                #1.34 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:46 PM EDT
                palco

                Dennis-956826

                If you want articulate discussion backed up by FACTS see poster Preserve, read some of the posts, whether its referrals or accounting information ( a very good numbers cruncher), don't listen to someone like me who you believe to be some evil liberal with some evil agenda, seek out others who disagree with you, you will be either more convinced in what you believe or possibly swayed to good ideas not good/bad ideological rhetoric.

                  #1.35 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:15 PM EDT
                  forusmithDeleted
                  palco

                  forusmith

                  Third world national health? where ?, I'm not aware of any third world (if you are saying impoverished nations) giving out national health, but will gladly accept an education about it. You said you lived under national health where? England,Denmark, Spain,Holland,France ? I lived under national health in three of those countries, never had the problems you are stating, dentist appointments...no problem, doctor appointments..no problem, Emergency care for a relative..no problem, Extended crisis care for an uncle for 28 years..no problem, please explain when, and where, because frankly your stories of difficulty are very hard to believe, its sounds like the same propaganda I have heard for over fifty years. Also where did you read the Government will keep your savings on your insurance ? if you are saying its in the bill then what section,page and line number is it, or is this just an opinion ? It amazes me how people will vote against their own interest and do so mimicking the cheap slogans from the Insurance and pharmaceutical companies, do you honestly believe there doing it for your interest and not their profits ?

                    #1.37 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
                    Dennis-956826

                    Palco... I did not label you liberal, I identified you as liberal. I never said you were evil, I said many liberals are evil. I will give you the benefit of the doubt :) I am not sure what brought you to where you are in life, but I believe you are very much mistaken on what is best for this country. Redistribution of wealth is very much Marxism. For the government to take something from you and give it to someone else for whatever reason they choose is redistribution. If Marxism works so well, why are so many former Marxist nations becoming capitalistic? China's economic growth began when they opened up free interprise economics in China. The same with Russia. There economy began to boom, and then the Communist Party seeing their power wane, began to tighten it's fingers around the throats of the people again.

                    You are partially right on one thing you stated. You said: None of this is really about health care, its about obstruction until the next election in hope of regaining power to continue the destruction of the middle class and the punishment of the poor and the dismantling of the social systems in this nation. I say: It is not mostly about health care. It is about control. Obama and the other Marxists want government to control another part of our lives by controlling the choices we are able to make. Conservatives are being obstructionists, but to preserve the middle class not to destroy it. Marxists nations have historically become 2nd world nations. They think if everyone is put in the lower class, then we should all be happy because we are in the same class, no class envy. Capitalists believe that those who work hard, are creative, and willing to take risks, will be rewarded with a better life for themselves and for others around them. If you are lazy, if you are mentally lame, if you want something for nothing, or if you have no chance to better yourself or your status in life, then I can understand someone wanting the government to take from someone else who has earned it, and give it to those who have not.

                    • 1 vote
                    #1.38 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:17 AM EDT
                    palco

                    Dennis-956826

                    Dennis how do you think we developed a middle class...redistribution of wealth, when Henry Ford (no lover of humanity or socially conscious man )started paying his workers $5.00 a day he was called a communist, he was not he knew if he paid his workers $5 a day they would be able to buy his cars, he was in essence redistributing wealth not giving away anything but realizing a working person who is paid well at maybe a little less profit up front would generate larger profits in the long run, After world war two with the GI bill and low interest loans from the government people were able to buy homes, this was government help and redistribution of wealth,through the 50's,60's,70's we had a growing middle class, and in the 70's even with high interest rates and inflation derived from the end of the Vietnam war and the phony and manipulated oil crisis the middle class was growing. Not until the eighty's when a new redistribution of wealth started with the flawed trickle down economic philosophy that redistributed from then to now 85% of the wealth created in this nation to two percent of the population, The middle class has been shrinking since the 1980's and is now slipping deeply into borderline poverty, no one is saying take all the money from the wealthy, what people are saying is redistribute a more fair share throughout the society so as to have a prosperous society, when Clinton raised taxes on the wealthy in 1993 the neocons and the right wing said the same arguments we are hearing today...guess what the rich got richer and the middle class started growing for the first time in fifteen years(two years after the tax hike), that is until 2000 when the neocons regained power and its been downhill ever since. You see I believe in a free economic and social system with a fair economic distribution of the wealth not a manipulated market with manipulated wages. If you stop and think for one moment about the so called trickle down thing...if you let the working person make a decent wage he spends his money, buys things, invest in things...well where does that money go...it goes up to the owner of the business, the factory, the restaurant, the financial investor, the banks...it rises to the top..It never goes down only up..not meaning a class thing but the rich mostly receive rarely do they give.

                    • 1 vote
                    #1.39 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:14 PM EDT
                    palco

                    Dennis-956826

                    another quick example of I'll call it trickle up economics, we just had a cash for clunkers, the idea was to jump start the economy and the auto industry, the government spent $3,500 to $4,500 per car and about 750,000 cars were sold, if we say the average car was $20,000. dollars and we take the max $4,500 as the average that's $15,500 per car times 750,000 equals $11,625,000,000. minus the $3 billion invested equals $8 billion $625 million dollars generated not a bad stimulus and where does that money go back to the companies the workers the banks etc,etc. the money will be redistributed throughout the economy but most will end up at the top, the new car owners got a deal the auto workers received income and the Auto companies got a shot in the arm, but the main point I was trying to make people utilized that money and the money is rising to the top, in this case all benefits. Now you may say its deficit spending, I say a wise deficit spending and every creditable conservative and liberal economist says the government does have to spend its self out of this deep recession, until people and private institutions start spending.

                    • 1 vote
                    #1.40 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:12 PM EDT
                    slowclimber

                    palco,

                    "If I was into conspiracies I would say the right wing of our political arena believe we should bankrupt the nation or convince the American people we are bankrupt, to get them to willingly submit to dismantling all social and in general all programs that have benefit to a collective America, to all the people as stated in our Constitution that gives us basically a overview of how the founding fathers thought a better nation could be"

                    Honestly, I think you are into conspiricies. Which is it? Does the right wing thing we "should" go bankrupt? Or do they think we are?

                    I'm sorry, but your statement makes no sense. None whatsoever. The issue is not government run programs. The issue is getting the balance right. You reference the "founding fathers", but I suspect they are rolling over in their graves with the idea that you are somehow insinuating that they would be in agreement with you.

                    You yourself also make a grave mistake in another area. You failed to recognize that I gave the government 23 years of chances. In terms of providing adequate health care, they failed. Miserably. So I paid extra - a lot extra - out of my pocket.

                    What did you do? What have you sacrificed? Where have you gotten your experience? Your background? Your basis for this proposed legislation?

                    Frankly, if I read your post to its logical conclusions, what I see is a marxist. And frankly, a dishonest one. You're saying you dont' believe we should "take money from the wealthy", but that we should "redistribute wealth". Exactly how does that work? Who are you taking that money from? It can't be from more than 40% of taxpaying Americans, because they don't pay those taxes to begin with. Who's it from, Palco?

                    • 2 votes
                    #1.41 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
                    GregL-671049

                    Oh dear loard,

                    Yes these people pay taxes,but not nearly as much as i do..I make made more in one year than a Walmart employee makes in 5..I would venture to guess that after the get their earned income credit they don't pay any tax...The point is the Waltons are responsible to their employee's not me....

                    • 1 vote
                    #1.42 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:22 PM EDT
                    palco

                    slowclimber

                    If you go back to the late nineties there was a huge debate in the conservative/liberal arenas of what to do with the 3-5 trillion surplus (now I don't believe there was a liquid surplus. only a pay down of debt) conservatives and the right (neocons) were afraid the money would be shifted to social programs and possible expansion of these programs, when Gore proposed putting 2 or 3 trillion in social security (a lock box) some but very few republicans saw merit to this idea as a way of stabilizing social security, but the overall vote shot it down, The reason they were even able to discuss the issue was because the pay as you go rules in congress and the raising of the taxes on the rich and paying down of debt. These rules were abandoned and paying down on social security and the debt were thrown out the window when George W bush was appointed to the presidency, he and his neocons abruptly gave away two trillion dollars mostly to the upper end of our society, a redistribution of wealth away from the middle class to the rich, which doesn't seem to bother people it seems when you redistribute upwards, he also gave huge tax breaks to the rich, he did just about everything the opposite of what was bringing down debt and strengthening the middles class and was creating better paying jobs which in turn enriching the rich anyways, You say you see a Marxist in my comments ? well I say you glasses are so screwed with ideological writing and your ears are so full of ideological rhetoric you can't here or see what I'm getting at. The next eight years Mr Bush and his necons(I will not honor them with the title of conservative, they are not) debit spent this nation into oblivion and appointed heads of government oversight that purposefully looked the other way as this nation was pillaged and plundered by the financial institutions(10%), wall street, and every incompetent or fraudulent corporation in this nation, while doing all this he was submitting fraudulent budgets to congress to hide the spending from the American people and he started two wars one of which would have merit the other a travesty that killed over 6,000 American soldiers, wounded over 30,000 American solders, killed anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million Iraq citizens, displaced over 1 million Iraq citizens and destabilized the middle east more than it already was and empowered Iran more then they could have dreamed, And the financial costs are well over a trillion , not this 650 billion number that has been constant for five years..explain that to me.

                    You said I invoked the founding fathers and they would not have approved or would be rolling over in their graves, yes I do believe they would, I believe the constitution is suppose to be a living breathing document, in others words was written for adaptation of the country to grow and adjust, I do not believe the founding fathers wanted a centralized bank, a corporate welfare system, or a people economically enslaved to a system or indentured to a system, that is what they left behind in England, that was my point.

                    I find it curious when people challenge the status quo all of a sudden they must not have contributed to the tax base or contribute to society, and the defenders of the status quo claim they are the only contributing forces and defenders of the nation, this phony claim to own patriotism and loyalty belongs in a place where the moon don't shine (as they say) In fact take the famous quote "my country wright or wrong" well finish it off "when she may be wright defend her and where she may be wrong change her" maybe the word for word is incorrect but the inference is not.

                      #1.43 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:11 PM EDT
                      ewent

                      Mike127....It all comes down to one question: Do you want your employers' bottom line to determine your quality of health care? Most employees loathe to pay for health care for employees and always have. I totally agree on this. For the reason I posted. I absolutely do not want my employer to make all the decisions on my health care needs. As it stands now, most employees have no say in which plan is chosen. Only the employer does. And, the plan is less important to employers than how much they can save if they choose plans with higher deductibles and copays. Anyone who argues against health care reform based on loss of their personal freedom to choose is misguided. Any employed person has NO choice in the plan their employer chooses. Nor, do they have a choice in how much it will cost. As for the argument that government intervention will destroy capitalism and free market, the pundits using this argument overlook the fact that the government will be in competition with HMOs. Isn't that what capitalism is all about? Competition? At present no employee can know in advance what their health care will cost. This puts all of us at the mercy of lightening speed HMO decisions made for profit. There's no choice in that either.

                        #1.44 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:05 AM EDT
                        slowclimber

                        palco,

                        So many distortions. First of all, the "surplus" that you're speaking of was frankly a mirage, propped up by "delayed" spending and cuts that only gained temporary reductions in deficits. Let's talk about those "surpluses", shall we? Let's talk about program cuts that occured in the 90s (for example, some in defense spending) that everyone knew damn well would not be able to be sustained, and that the actual overall costs would be an INCREASE over 10 years - but those increases would occur AFTER that administration was out of office, ok? A budgetary sleight of hand specifically and solely aimed at political profit, at the expense of both our country and our economy. Let's talk about this "redistribution of wealth" that you somehow claim directed more money to the wealthy. I completely fail to understand your logic, so you're going to have to explain this one to me. Frankly, it appears to be wacked out liberal logic, only possible for someone with myopic and completely biased views to comprehend.

                        Who are the taxes paid by? What GROSS income groups paid what percentage of taxes? What group paid what percentage of taxes by AGI? Umm.... Well, by a massive, exponential amount, that would be the same group that got the tax cuts under Bush. So, when some people claim (logically correct) that those people paid less OF THEIR OWN MONEY in taxes, and STILL paid massively more (by percentage and by total) ever after the tax cuts, you would characterizing that as "redistributing wealth to the wealthy"?

                        The fact that you choose to use terms such as neocons, etc shows your completet and uttler lack of objectivity. My glasses are fine. My vision is fine. My logic is fine.

                        You, sir (that term used extremely loosely) can attempt all day long to make up excuses, try to distort history, and make up your own rules. Yet, the facts remain the same. The problem is that people like you, totally, completely, and irrevocably biased toward your own goals ONLY sees "blame" in your opponents. The faults ALWAYS lie on the other side. Yet the facts are so very different. If you would have taken the time to see some of my other posts you'd see that I'm no great fan of GW Bush. There are things that I disagree strongly with him about. That being said, I refuse to take the juevile - and frankly completely stupid - position that all of this lies on his shoulders, and that this justifies anything that the current administration wants to do.

                        • 1 vote
                        #1.45 - Wed Sep 2, 2009 2:13 PM EDT
                        slowclimber

                        Ewent,

                        Unfortunately your post is ALSO incorrect. In many cases, employers offer multiple plans AND providers to choose from. Nonetheless, the true basis for your mistake is the absolute fact that it is extremely likely - if not inevitable - that a "public option" would eventially simply eliminate ALL the other plans.

                        As a former career military person (first enlisted, and then officer), I had the unfortunate opportunity to see just how a "single option" government run system works. My experience (over 23 years) is simple. It was so poor, that we chose to pay for competely separate HMO coverage through my wifes employer for years - at full rate - so as to not have to rely on the extremely problematic, low quality, CHAMPUS and then TRICARE plans.

                        • 1 vote
                        #1.46 - Wed Sep 2, 2009 2:16 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        mike-1275418Deleted
                        NancyforO

                        Health Insurance is a necessary evil and the insurance companies know they have all of us over a barrel. The greed of the health insurance companies has at last caught up with them and they are spending our premiums on fighting back. They know that if they win they can recoup what they have had to spend by raising the premiums yet again. Soon health insurance will be for only the very wealthy, but the wealthy forget they will be paying for all those that must go to the emergency room for care. There is always pay back for greed. That people have to go bankrupt when they have a terrible illness will also be paid for by the wealthy in the long run. Soon the rich will be middle class then poor like the rest of us. There is always a cost when we want to avoid helping our neighbor.

                        I know good decent people who have lost a job and now have no health care. I would help them if I could as I know they would help me. We do not live alone, we live together. I am over 60 and recall when all of us helped each other. We even helped those in our community we did not know as it was the right thing to do. Those days are gone now as we go to the yard sale of our neighbor to steal their valuables from them for a dollar.

                        • 14 votes
                        #3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:49 AM EDT
                        Dakota Kyle

                        I agree, I remember a time in this country when we assumed the people using the government's safety nets were deserving of the help, sure there were folks that took advantage, but the large percentage were in that position thru no fault of their own.

                        Today, many immediately jump to the conclusion of the reverse, that the majority are "welfare queens" and "lazy drunks and dopers".

                        Very sad how cynical many citizens have become in the last 20-30 years.

                        • 6 votes
                        #3.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
                        Joe-668085

                        Dakota

                        Those that are on it are the smart ones,Untill employers start paying a livable wage one where somone can live decent on,why would you want to work?Welfare you get free medical,free food,free transportation,free money to live,heck they sound like every CEO i know except they dont make quite as much as one.

                        Bottom line i would do the sme thing if my salary was less than what welfare pays.I would rather my tax dollars go to people who are screwed over in this society than to some undeserviving bed wetting usless mommas boy CEO.

                        • 5 votes
                        #3.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:09 PM EDT
                        GregL-671049

                        Joe,

                        I know a few people who are on the government dole...They for the most part are the stereotypical welfare people..They are too lazy to look for a job...If the employer came to the door and offered them a job they wouldn't take it...The people who come on here day after day and beg have no pride....I would shovel sh@t before i beg...

                        • 3 votes
                        #3.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:10 PM EDT
                        GK-298121

                        Nancy & Dakota - the time when people on assistance truly needed it have passed. 2009 is not a real-life airing of "It's a Wonderful Life".

                        • 1 vote
                        #3.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:33 PM EDT
                        Concerned-340935Deleted
                        Wallybox

                        Nancy,

                        Those days are not gone, I've had people help me in the past and i swore that when I'm in a position to help others I would. Now I'm in that position to help and I have, right now my wife and I have found a job for single mother friend of ours so she can have health insurance. She is now working and providing for her daughter, its not the type of job she was used to but she is greatful to just be working. People helping people is what made this country great not government or big business crying about the bottom line. Help your neghbor everyone and watch what happens!

                          #3.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:41 PM EDT
                          NancyforO

                          GK-298121

                          What is a real life airing? Is it survival of the strongest beast among us? Do we let the bodies lie on the side of the road as we pass by, or worse do we run them over to get our place in front?

                          • 1 vote
                          #3.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:43 PM EDT
                          larry-292879

                          joe i bet you do know some people that are on goverment welfare and i bet they do appear to be lazy.Some of them probabley are lazy and i bet others just gave up or quit trying to find a DECENT job to pay thier bills.We need health care reform.I have personally been bombarded with calls from insurance companies wanting to sell me insurance since this started...who are they trying to kid?

                          • 1 vote
                          #3.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:45 PM EDT
                          ivan, NC

                          Dakota Kyle. you can thank your congress for the problem we have today. Each time a vote comes up they are all giving away money, or benefits to those on welfare...and I am sure there are some who deserve it..but there are also too many that do not..yet they keep receiving it...Will a politican take it away..not likely, it might cost them a vote...This country is getting the shaft by politicans who have a lot of talk coming from them...about reducing the cost to us...and at the same time...at the first sign of an election, they are throwing more and more to those that are questionable that draw welfare. Illegals can get it....those that are just playing the system can get it..and our elected ...in the want of a vote, keep thorwing money at them.

                            #3.9 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:56 PM EDT
                            elchiparoso

                            Ivan NC, do you realize that most people on welfair do not vote. If most lower middle class and poor voted, they would run the country together with the die hard librals. I for one am a compessionate moderate who is not deceived by the conservatives or librals. Both extremes make absolutely no sense what so ever.

                            • 1 vote
                            #3.10 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:24 PM EDT
                            truthhurtssometimes

                            GK--you are a bit off there. I had to use welfare for a couple months when I moved out of state for school, and had alot of trouble finding a job (able bodied, but long hair, go figure...hair cut, instant job placement). I would have ended up in a real sorry position if not for welfare, but I still felt like a freeloader. It gave me so much more motivation to get a job, and I got off as fast as I could. Have faith my friend, some people are not here to suckle the teet, and use the system as it was intended.

                            I just cannot see how some people can tolerate a self imposed crutch like that, it is so self depricating to place such harsh limitations on your life. I have not needed my hand held for quite some time now. How can you be a free person if you cannot live without the assistance of others?

                              #3.11 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:42 PM EDT
                              slowclimber

                              Joe and concerned,

                              First - Joe. OK, I'll be blunt. You make me sick. You stand for everything that I truly despise. What you said is that even if you're capable of work, you'd rather suck off the taxpayers who DO work if welfare and all the handouts added up to the same or more than you make being productive. Where do you think that money came from, Joe? I'd guess not you. Though I don't pretend to know, I'd guess that you're not one of the heavy taxpayers. You're "entitlement based" selfish "me-me" whining screw the other guy just give me what I want mentality makes my blood boil. You're class envy "Oh, the CEOs make TOO much money" half-brained ego is both morally and ethically bankrupt. The only think I can take solace in is the fact that people like you usually get their just rewards.

                              Concerned: Here's the problem with people like you and Joe. You've got your head (I'll bet you think you know what I'm going to say - you're wrong again) so far back in the 1950s and your whining class-envy jealousy so fired up that you have no concept of what has changed in the world. So, let me give you a little educational primer. Just for you.

                              Stridently pro-union, "living wage" "kill the CEOs" people like you point back to when we had it good. Back in the good old industrial labor friendly US days of - the 50s and maybe 60s. So, let's take a look at what was - and what is - shall we?

                              Back in the 50s, automation was pretty much crude and unsophisticated. The term "Supply Chain" was a mystery. JIT (Just In Time) was an impossibility. Six Sigma wasn't even a concept. That's because the engineering and technology to facilitate these things didn't exist. Remember - IBM PC? 1981. The Univac allowed for the first computer modeled census in? 1950 and 1952. Not much there, huh? Know what that means? It means the logistics costs of overcoming the natural barriers of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans were far too high, creating a closed market very friendly to the US labor pool. You with me? Now, add to that the fact that places like China and India were not yet sufficiently advanced to truly take on major manufacturing with any quality control.

                              Now, let's see what happens as time passes. Keep in mind that the following has absolutely not a damned thing to do with what political party is in what political position! Ever heard of "Moore's Law"? I didn't think so. At at high level and in laymans terms, it says that computing power doubles every - OH! 2 YEARS! Now for some math, OK? How many years has it been since 1952? Since 1981? You get the picture, right?

                              So, now we have automation and engineering systems that allow for seamless logistic chains, engineering systems and manufacturing processes that pretty much eliminate geography from being a prime factor. And, we have technical advancement in low cost countries such as China, creating unskilled labor pools to compete for work. In other words, US workers now have to compete! This isn't politics, you idiot. It's simple math. It's the reason that the watch on your wrist didn't cost $2000. It's the reason you can buy an auto GPS for $100.

                              Is it a problem? Absolutely - for us. Other countries are now doing to us - gee - what WE DID TO THEM. I don't like it. Not at all. But I'm not stupid enough to blame it on one political party, or on CEOs.

                              Here's another math question for you, OK? Ready?

                              Go to Yahoo Finance. Now, find the stock symbol for one of those evil corporations where CEOs and executives get paid WAY too much. Look over to the left, where there's a section called - ready? - Filings. Now, find the executive comp. OK, now go to another filing to find operating expense for that corporation, OK? Here's where it gets tricky for you.

                              Do a little quick division and find out just how much of their operating expenses comes from executive comp. Now, here's the fun part.

                              You'd better have a good calculator. Because the answer is gonna be A LOT less than 1%. A WHOLE LOT. Oops - kind of takes the wind of of that whole "Evil CEO makes too much money which is why jobs are outsourced" thing.

                              Here's another one for you. Hang with me just a LITTLE longer, OK?

                              In those "Big Bad Evil corporations", who do you think the shareholders are? The investors? Oh-Oh! Another whoops! The largest investors or "shareholders" are typically "institutional investors". Guess who those are?

                              Uh, those are things like 401Ks. Mutual funds. You know, the things that the "working mans" retirement funds are based on.

                              Damn, that hurts, doesn't it.

                              • 1 vote
                              #3.12 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:41 PM EDT
                              Persevere

                              Hey slowclimber - A response is requested

                              You can slice and dice and propagandize all you like, a lot of words without much substance. I could go down your wordy list. But, there is an easy way for analysis. We can make this real easy. Just two points:

                              1) record profits for the industry, especially my favorite UnitedHealth Care. The dividends they pay out and that small percentage. Well you see even one tenth of one percent of a big, big number can be like a big fat six figure income for the CEO and all of top management. Then to "keep" all that "talent" we have to throw some stock options in for them to call on at just the right time. You forgot to mention that, did you not?

                              2) If the poor insurance companies, and other entities involved in the big business of health care are just getting by, that seems to be the picture you like to portray, then if that is the case. Where are they getting the 1.8 million per day (Business Week) to wage a campaign againest the American people? Why are they fighting like this is a fight of like death or life for the Earth? Why are they and the front groups going to meetings held in areas where none of the people they buss to said meetings are even able to vote in that district and told to "look and act like locals".

                              Maybe you are slow, you are aware of the leaked memo's that have come out in the press? Maybe you are aware of all the dirty tricks. That is the best light one can put on the industry you defend, stealing numerous identities of senior and other non-profit entities, you may have heard. They stole the identity of these good people and wrote long and wordy letters on behalf of the business of health care. I don't know how you were brought up and the morals that you were taught, I guess I had bad teachers, I was brought up and taught that this kind of play is unfiar, maybe illegal and is immoral. Why would they go through all this trouble if a big fat cash cow was not at stake? I have lived a good many years, my friend, and have been in the business world for many years, an industry does not behave like this unless something big, like money, is on the table. Its called the facts of life here in California.

                              Finally, you might try reading the poll of the Canadian people, take youre pick the one from the government or the non-profit coalition for health care. Take your pick. Is the word non-profit, that bothers you so much? Can you even utter the word?

                              Have a good and healthy day, and if you have to see a doctor I"m sure you won't have any problem.

                              Just answer me this; Life sure is great when you have good health insurance, how do you like it? How does it feel? How does it feel if your child is sick and slowclimber just goes right to the doctor, tell us all how does that feel? Would you please, I'm serious, answer me the questions I just posed, after all, they are not hard questions are they?

                              • 3 votes
                              #3.13 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:46 PM EDT
                              Persevere

                              Slowclimber - our politicians are paid off what is your rate?

                              I have just tried, I said tried, to read another post of yours; I believe you must live in some kind of bubble. I don’t mean to offend the elderly, but you might have yourself checked for on-set senility. The health of the business of health is doing just fine, very healthy. You sound like a hired hand to argue the merits and altruism of the CEO’s and the industry in general. You’re our own little the Dick Armey, an apologist sent to the Vine to argue for the poor little business industry of health. I have to check, but I would bet that the return on equity or the dividend persentage paid out per stock is pretty damn good. I find it difficult to read your convoluted apologetics on behalf of the insurance industry, part folksy part just out wrong and somewhat demented.

                              My 401K is at risk because if the ‘Public Option” opens up the market place then “guess who is going to lose” are you some kind of paid hack to come on to the Vine and spew fear tactics on the Viners? I think the people on this site are not so gullible as you might like. We have our differences but Viners for most part are not stupid, stupid.

                              I have a question, what is a hack like you going for these days? Really, “FredomWorks”, is holding a convention for the status quo and “education” seminairs back east and charging the various insurance companies; $5,000 for a booth to hand out literature and have a barker and model (read good looking gal) in front of the booth. But, an insurance corporation like CIGNA, UnitedHealth Care or Aetna, you know the big boys, will have to hand over $10,000 to have a sepulated speaker address the convention. If you’re not busy, you could put an application in to speak for CIGNA, or any other of the interested parties. Try it. Here is a report from the congressional subcommittee on the health of the business of health providers. They look pretty damn healthy to me. I have to check, and maybe all the readers can check their rate of increase of income. One simple question, really answers all, ask yourself “Did my salary or hourly wage go up 428%”, if it did your company is probably broke. Hey Slow take a look at the real numbers, now what do you say?

                              “Profits at 10 of the country’s largest publicly traded health insurance companies rose 428 percent from 2000 to 2007, while consumers paid more for less coverage. One of the major reasons, according to a new study, is the growing lack of competition in the private health insurance industry that has led to near monopoly conditions in many markets.The report says such conditions warrant a Justice Department investigation and, says Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), provide compelling evidence of the need for a public health insurance plan option as part of the health care reform initiative President Obama and Congress are developingProfits at 10 of the country’s largest publicly traded health insurance companies rose 428 percent from 2000 to 2007, while consumers paid more for less coverage. One of the major reasons, according to a new study, is the growing lack of competition in the private health insurance industry that has led to near monopoly conditions in many markets.

                              The report says such conditions warrant a Justice Department investigation and, says Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), provide compelling evidence of the need for a public health insurance plan option as part of the health care reform initiative President Obama and Congress are developing.In a letter to the Department of Justice’s Anti-Trust Division, Richard Kirsch, HCAN national campaign manager, and David Balto, former policy director of the Federal Trade Commission and now senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, write:Simply put, the private insurance companies have secured monopolies or tight oligopolies and exercised that power to put profits ahead of patients….There were no actions taken against anticompetitive conduct by health insurers in the last administration, in spite of the fact that cases by state attorneys general have secured massive fines against these insurers. A lack of antitrust enforcement has enabled insurers to acquire dominant positions in almost every metropolitan market.

                              They ask for an investigation of the already consummated mergers that “harm competition or create an anticompetitive market structure.” They also urge the Justice Department to conduct investigations of “anticompetitive conduct by dominant insurance companies and challenge that conduct where appropriate.”Many dominant insurers limit the ability of providers to choose rival insurers or inform patients about more efficient and comprehensive coverage. The DOJ should investigate tools used to stifle competition such as physician gag clauses, most favored nations provisions, all-products clauses, and silent networks, which prevent providers and consumers from having the full range of competitive alternatives

                              You probably don’t like these numbers, lets try the numbers right from the reportings of the insurance companies themselves:

                              Health insurance is expensive. Small business people are especially hurt by the rising costs to cover employees. And good luck finding affordable coverage if you are self employed. The rates for self employed even healthy people are sobering. So it must mean that health insurance companies are struggling right? They keep raising the rates and finding more and more conditions they don't cover. Deductibles keep going up and each of us is asked to pay more and more of our medical bills even with supposedly good health coverage. Take a look at a informative report that the health industry does not contest. Now you have to ask yourself, why would the carriers not sue or make them retract? Libel?

                              "Insuring Health or Ensuring Profit?; A look at the Financial Gains of Washington's Health Insurers." According to the report, the big three carriers in Washington, Regence BlueShield, Premera Blue Cross and Group Health Cooperative saw profits increase from $11 million in 2002 to $243 million in 2003 and $431 million in 2006. Their cash surplus went from $833 million in 2002 to $2.2 billion (with a "B") in 2006. Interestingly enough they did it while covering less people. Over 2.37 million people were covered by the three in 2002 compared to 1.9 million in 2006. So the cost of health care is still going up, but the profits by private health insurance companies are rising even faster. The article shows medical costs rose 16 percent in the same period that health insurance profits went up 23 percent. In 2007, Washington legislators tried to pass a law allowing the Insurance Commissioner to regulate health insurance rates. The law failed. I wonder who lobbied lawmakers to stop it? Consumers who like paying higher insurance rates? Nope, I don't think so, but, Persevere could be wrong. NOT !

                              I could do this all day, its too easy, besides I think your balloon has a hole in it and is leaking gas really fast, better look for your golden parachute. Pack up your tent, in all due respect, and go home.

                              • 3 votes
                              #3.14 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:10 PM EDT
                              RobWI

                              Excellent post Perservere!

                              Hope you address the world economy too! Maybe we do need to pull in the reins a bit and promote "Fair" trade and not one way "Free" trade. Or explain why a Harley in China has a 33% tariff on it, in addition to a 50% "sales" tax, but a local produced alternative only has a 9% "sales" tax. This water glass wage effect is only reducing our middle class standard of living while increasing the elites and money changers wealth.

                                #3.15 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:25 PM EDT
                                slowclimber

                                Well, Perservere,

                                First of all, let me get one thing out on the table.

                                You're a complete idiot. You're totally out of touch. Before I answer YOUR questions, how about if you take a step back.

                                You're being an @!$%#. Calling me a "paid hack"?

                                Please tell me exactly how I'm incorrect about exactly when and why outsourcing happened, OK? Please show me exactly where I went off track. Pal, you've clearly demonstrated a incredible lack of intelligence.

                                I defended NO business, sector or market. I simply showed some of the reasons for what has happened, and the TOTALLY RIDICULOUS CLASS ENVY crap that people like you spew out. You're a selfish, jealous idtiot who doesn't like it when somebody else gets something you can't get.

                                Guess what? I don't make that money either. But, I'm not going to blame all the ills of the world on the fact that somebody ELSE does make that money. It may be a problem, but it's an UNRELATED problem.

                                What you can do all day is to whine, squeal and squirm about how you don't like something. Guess what? That doesn't change the fact that it is what it is. It does not change the fact that executive pay is NOT remotely a reason for oursourcing, for whatever else you want. You keep posting data from Schumer - who frankly has little to no credibility in my personal opinion. Frankly, ANYTHING from inside the beltway has little or no credibility.

                                But let's take yet another step back - to where my response started. I'm guessing that you're like the other lazy, selfish, worthless individual who if their own pay was the same or less than welfare would be glad to just take welfare, huh? Yeah, I thought so.

                                Here's another key point for you, wise-guy (note the sarcasm). Never, ever, ever do you see me - EVER saying that the insurance companies are problem free. NEVER ever ever do you see me saying that I agree with all their strategies. You jacka$$, never EVER do you see me saying that I think theyr'e related to Sister Theresa.

                                What you DO see me saying is that

                                1) People with an overly entitlement based agenda like Joe (and apparently you) are repulsive leaches on society.

                                2) Class Envy (such as that illustrated by you and your kind) serves NOBODY, and accomplishes NOTHING.

                                3) The primary reason for so much of our manufacturing/industrial job loss to other countries is NOT the fault of one political party or another. There are very easy to understand, logical, and frankly inevitible reasons behind it.

                                4) Health Care does need IMPROVEMENT. REFORM. Not the half based socialistic crap that's in the proposals to date. It needs MODIFICATIONS. NOT replacement. The problem is that half-wits like you only see it one way. It always MUST be "big businesses fault". "Corporations are evil".

                                Give me a break. Get a job.

                                • 1 vote
                                #3.16 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:41 PM EDT
                                ewent

                                To the posters worried about the impact on their 401Ks, several fairly well known investment consultants are already making plans on "how to cash in on Obamacare". So much for Wall Street's concern about your health right? Here's how Wall Street will make big bucks off Obamacare: they will invest in HMOs who are most competitive with any government plan in order to make the government plan weaker. This will give anyone who has invested in these government-competitive HMOs a higher ROI.

                                I really do not get these irrational fears against a government reform of health care reform. All capitalism is based upon competition and the science of innovation that leads to profit making ventures. Are Americans so obtuse that they can no longer learn to compete?

                                  #3.17 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:14 AM EDT
                                  Persevere

                                  Thank You................one would think that says it all....but...............

                                    #3.18 - Fri Sep 4, 2009 9:48 PM EDT
                                    Reply
                                    gattes12

                                    This article provides a very interesting twist to the dilema.

                                    In turn, that’s pushed some companies to advocate for health care reform in the hopes that they can have a say in a plan that would provide them some financial relief, whether through broader coverage, electronic records or other new measures.

                                    Which could very well mean more hires?

                                    Stay tuned.

                                    • 6 votes
                                    Reply#4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:49 AM EDT
                                    James in Denver

                                    Of course WalMart wants a say on health care reform. They have been trying to dump the health care of their employees on the tax payer for years. The public option now allows them to do so. The penalty for not providing insurance is a joke to a low-wage employer like WalMart.

                                    Penalty = 8% of payroll. If an employee makes $20,800 per year (full time at $10/hour) the penalty will be $1,664 per year. There isn't a health care plan on the planet that is that cheap (average health care plan for a family of four being $12,000) It is a no brainer that WalMart will immediately drop all health care coverage if this bill is passed. So much for keeping your plan if you like it...

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #4.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:45 AM EDT
                                    TraceyG

                                    When I worked for wal-mart I couldnt afford their insurance anyways.

                                    • 5 votes
                                    #4.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:55 AM EDT
                                    gattes12

                                    They have been trying to dump the health care of their employees on the tax payer for years

                                    Actually the the reform will require them to provide insurance which they are not required to do now.

                                    Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest private employer, has thrown its support behind an employee mandate, which would require more employers to provide health care coverage

                                    Maybe you should read it again.

                                    • 4 votes
                                    #4.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:55 AM EDT
                                    James in Denver

                                    Maybe you should look at the penalties for non-compliance and see that they are a joke.

                                      #4.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:26 PM EDT
                                      gattes12

                                      Maybe you should look at the penalties for non-compliance and see that they are a joke.

                                      Ignorant statement of the day.

                                      So why would Walmart be in favor of the reform, only to dump the insurance and pay the non-compliance penalty when they can just be against it and not provide insurance now?

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #4.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:11 PM EDT
                                      James in Denver

                                      Because if the company pays the low non-compliance penalty, the employees can choose their own plan from the government subsidized plans. They get a gold star for supporting the reform plan, their employees get coverage, and it costs the company less in the long run because they can drop their existing coverage. Big victory for WalMart. The only people who get screwed are the people who already have health insurance and the "rich" (ie the taxpayers.)

                                      Read the bill from the perspective of a company like WalMart - the only reason they support it is because it SAVES them money. Their employees get health care, they save money and shift all the costs to their competitors. Big victory.

                                        #4.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:12 PM EDT
                                        gattes12

                                        They get a gold star for supporting the reform plan, their employees get coverage, and it costs the company less in the long run because they can drop their existing coverage

                                        What good would the gold star be if they support a plan and then dump the insurance when they can dump it now?

                                        Read the bill from the perspective of a company like WalMart - the only reason they support it is because it SAVES them money

                                        Here's what the experts speculate:

                                        Experts speculate that the company is pushing for such a mandate because it wants to level the playing field by forcing its competitors to take on the same cost burden it does.

                                        Seems reasonable to me. then again, maybe they will all just dump the coverage and pay.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #4.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:33 PM EDT
                                        popeyethesailorDeleted
                                        Concerned-340935Deleted
                                        Joanna Caroll

                                        Insurance companies want to stay in business. They'll compete when they are forced to compete. The public option has to stay if anyone is serious about health insurance reform.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #4.10 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:30 PM EDT
                                        elchiparoso

                                        James in Denver, in the future there will be more and more companys dumping health care in the employees lap. We are living in a world economy. Do any of you know what this means. It is apparent that most of the people blogging here do not have a simple concept of what this means. I do not have the time nor the interest at explaining it to anyone. Do not be lazy and do some research. There are what you call intellectual lazy people also. Being lazy comes in many forms besides physical.

                                          #4.11 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:29 PM EDT
                                          palco

                                          James in Denver

                                          On of the proposals in the house plan was to ensure companies don't dump their costs on the government option is to have a surcharge on these companies who would try to eliminate the health coverage they presently offer, if they did they would be forced to contribute to the government plan(at more than 8%). This may or may not still be in their I'm not sure , although none of this is a completed plan yet anyway, this all can be dealt with in conference. The one good thing about all the debate is that whatever final plan comes out will be put through a microscope and there may not be hiding room for any congressional person to who would want to sabotage the plan threw inserting of amendments that could do so, that may be wishful thinking though. I think in September all of us will be able to see a clearer path as to what is actually being proposed.

                                            #4.12 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:42 PM EDT
                                            Persevere

                                            elchiparoso - hey Palco sorry but the vine is not always posting correctly

                                            elchiparoso - I am trying to answer your question as to why it took so long to have a doctor look at your cut hand, and that you thought there might be a shortage of doctors. I hope you get too read my post - sorry Palco

                                            Your right on target, the American Medical Association has for over half a century, take heed now, for over half a century kept the level of physicans and family practionars at an pre-ascertained level. The AMA knows not to help fund new medical schools and has held the flow of family practitioners at a pre-determined level. Now, the family practitioner is the easiest physician to put through Med. School and they are the lowest paid relative to the specialist. I think we are all on the same page on that.

                                            No new Medical colleges have built since I don’t know when. Why would the AMA want that? So we have a lot of doctors that would be family practitoners go into specialties. They are paid more.

                                            Where we as a people have failed is to plan, look over the horizon and see the need of Americans now and in the future. The AMA is not going to put out more doctors, so that leaves only one source with the financial might to pursue a plan to put more doctors into our society. But, here is where the rubber meets the road.

                                            That one entity with the dollars to put 5,000 family practitioners into society, by year 2020, are the taxpayers representatives in congress. To put it mildly, our congress is bought off, bribed, to look the other way, not to plan. To think of the medical needs of a society of over 300 million people takes representatives that truly have “public service” in their hearts.

                                            The call for service is a trust they honor by always doing and thinking of what is best for the people that put them office and the nation. We don’t have those kinds of people anymore in our congress. So we well just have to stumble down the road, like a drunk, and some way, find our way home.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #4.13 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:37 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            Chris-537131

                                            The problem is the unpredictability of the rise in health care costs. This hits companies and consumers alike. For every year since 1971, health care costs have risen faster than the OMB has predicted even though health care costs were predicted to rise the most every year except two (when it was oil/gasoline prices.)

                                            Companies can deal with a lot of things, but unpredictability is not one of them.

                                            • 4 votes
                                            Reply#5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:06 AM EDT
                                            Persevere

                                            Chris -

                                            I'm only attaching this to your post, because I lost the poster that still thinks the business of health is ill, in the sense that the profit realized by the business of health is not all that great. Mr. Potter is an honorable man. I wish there were more men and woman as he.

                                            July 31, 2009

                                            Last month, testimony in front of the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation by a former health insurance insider named Wendell Potter made news even before it occurred: CBS NEWS headlined: "Cigna Whistleblower to Testify." After Potter's testimony the industry scrambled to do damage control: "Insurers defend rescissions, take heat for lack of transparency."

                                            In his first extended television interview since leaving the health insurance industry, Wendell Potter tells Bill Moyers why he left his successful career as the head of Public Relations for CIGNA, one of the nation's largest insurers, and decided to speak out against the industry. "I didn't intend to [speak out], until it became really clear to me that the industry is resorting to the same tactics they've used over the years, and particularly back in the early '90s, when they were leading the effort to kill the Clinton plan."

                                            Potter began his trip from health care spokesperson to reform advocate while back home in Tennessee. Potter attended a "health care expedition,"a makeshift health clinic set up at a fairgrounds, and he tells Bill Moyers, "It was absolutely stunning. When I walked through the fairground gates, I saw hundreds of people lined up, in the rain. It was raining that day. Lined up, waiting to get care, in animal stalls. Animal stalls."

                                            Is there anyone out there with even a minuscule amount of compassion for your fellow human being ? So that we are clear, have no doubt, it is the "Public Option", NOT the co-op's the insurance companies want, or some other bull. Enough !

                                            Looking back over his long career, Potter sees an industry corrupted by Wall Street expectations and greed. According to Potter, insurers have every incentive to deny coverage — every dollar they don't pay out to a claim is a dollar they can add to their profits, and Wall Street investors demand they pay out less every year. Under these conditions, Potter says, "You don't think about individual people. You think about the numbers, and whether or not you're going to meet Wall Street's expectations."

                                            OK, Now. We need men, woman, families and individuals; every American to step up contact the powers, like I have. I used email to Obama. I am going to contact my state Senators and the President's office again. Please do the same.

                                            "Time Has Come Today" for those that remember. The struggle continues, a new spirite come alive again. Does anyone remember?

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #5.1 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:39 AM EDT
                                            ewent

                                            Chris5371...Now you're hitting the mark....Scenario: You are seriously injured in a car accident that requires long-term recouperative care. From the minute the ambulance rushes you to the ER, you have no clue what it is going to cost. Or, if your HMO will even cover the costs. You may have a rider on your auto insurance that says you have to use your employer-sponsored coverage before the auto insurer will pick up the rest of the bill. If your bill is exhorbitant, your employer than looks for a reason to fire you to save his health care from bankrupting his company or, from other employees losing theirs altogether. If your employer closes his doors, you have no health care. And, if that surgery costs more than what you've saved in a health care account, you pay out of pocket.

                                            This is quality health care?

                                              #5.2 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:20 AM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              Brian-428420

                                              Obama's Fall 2009 lineup-Is he up to it? Just because he can read a teleprompter speech written by someone else once a day does not mean Obama and his team of close advisors are up to the tasks they have before them.

                                              1. Probable collapse of the Health Care Bill, or worse

                                              2. Passage of Health Care Bill with the Senate Nuclear Option

                                              3. CIA investigation controversy and the left wing media hysteria with it

                                              4. Resignation of Leon Panetta and loss of best and brightest

                                              5. Continuing high unemployment numbers and possibility of double dip recession

                                              6. Lack of focus on Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, will catch up with Administration

                                              7. Growing doubts on effectiveness of Stimulus

                                              8. Growing deficits and tax receipt shortfalls

                                              9. Key Political Losses in New Jersey and Virginia

                                              10. Growing deterioration of Senate and House prospects in 2010 elections

                                              11. Israeli attack on Iran via land based missiles, aircraft and sub launched missiles

                                              12. Growing problems in Afghanistan

                                              13. Growing problems in Iraq due to lack of focus/committment

                                              14. Increasing possibility of show-down with China over US Debt

                                              15. Big spector of Stag-flation

                                              16. Increased Tea Party, 912 Project, and other grass roots rebellion

                                              17. Increased foreclosures and bankruptcies

                                              18. Increased Left Wing Revolt over inaction on Health Care, Cap and Trade, gay rights and gay marriage.

                                              19. Swine Flu Pandemic

                                              20. Many un-filled cabinet positions

                                              21. Train wreck of Gitmo

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:07 AM EDT
                                              Capt Tripps

                                              All in a days work. It's not about what he's facing (all President's have to deal with these issues), but how he handles it. We'll have to look back a year or two from now to find out the answer. Trying to pre-judge is simply foolish.

                                              • 9 votes
                                              #6.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:42 AM EDT
                                              Bill - Texas

                                              Give the teleprompter a rest, already. That's just a childish personal dig, and it's charm has long since faded. We know that Obama's administration has a formidable line up of problems facing it, thanks in large measure to his predecessor. Anyone can make up a list of problems and complain that nothing is being done, or something is not being done quickly enough, or that the wrong things are being done. What are your top five issues? And how do you propose to fix them? I'm guessing your #16 is right up there. It fits with the extreme right wing agenda.....me, me, me, me........no, no, no, no............

                                              • 13 votes
                                              #6.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
                                              joybird

                                              Fox talking points

                                              • 8 votes
                                              #6.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
                                              Judy-851743

                                              Well said, Bill.

                                              • 6 votes
                                              #6.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:28 AM EDT
                                              Dakota Kyle

                                              You Lush lemmings are schizophrenic!

                                              First, you state you want the Federal government out of health care and then in the next statement you blame the Federal government for failing to create jobs!

                                              • 8 votes
                                              #6.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:28 AM EDT
                                              NativeOregonian

                                              Thanks to Mr. G.W. Bush it's going to take us quite a while to get past all of the issues. Yet people expect Obama to do it all within the first year. He inherited a mess. He has no magic wand. But I am sure we'll see some things chiseled away with time.

                                              I am betting the Republicans is where we'll see the biggest downfalls. Their approval ratings have remained low and they're not looking to good to the public right now. They have come across as petty and manipulative and their main news representative (Faux) has turned into a freak show.

                                              • 13 votes
                                              #6.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:32 AM EDT
                                              brett-591775Deleted
                                              GregL-671049

                                              This summer brought a significant shift in voter preferences in the Generic Congressional Ballot. As Republican Congressional candidates once again lead Democrats by a 43% to 38% margin this week, this is now the ninth straight ballot the GOP has held a modest advantage.

                                              NativeOregonian

                                              Over the past nine weeks, Republicans have held a two-to-five point advantage over Democrats every week. It is important to note, however, that the recent shift is not only because Republicans have been gaining support, but that Democrats have slipped in support. While support for Republican candidates ranged from 41% to 43%, support for Democrats ranged from 37% to 39%.

                                              From Rasmussen Reports.... So i don't think your assessment is quite accurate as much as you would like it to be....The silent majority is waking up..

                                                #6.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:17 PM EDT
                                                Jon Martz

                                                GOP Approval is at 22% and falling. The GOP is becomming a regional party. Sen Martinez is resigning, thus putting an end to hispanic outreach. The GOP has no such advantage

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #6.9 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:33 PM EDT
                                                larry-292879

                                                First of all this country is all our responcability ,its not just the presidents ,its all americans and if you republicans could see past your so right sided noses you could see this.Study history a little and you would see the cia has been riegned in before,they were brought before congress and told they just couldnt go out and do want they wanted to do...like killing a leader of another country or kidnapping someone off the street and holding them somewhere out of site without charging them with a crime...they did that in germany under hitler and russia under stalin...we are neither!So before you say another bad thing about this country think about what you would do without some right wing person telling you how to think

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #6.10 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:56 PM EDT
                                                elchiparoso

                                                Brian you have to be joking, and not many of us are laughing.

                                                  #6.11 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:31 PM EDT
                                                  easydoesit

                                                  From Rasmussen Reports

                                                  American conservative public polling firm founded by Steve Rasmussen who was a paid consultant for GWB.

                                                    #6.12 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 PM EDT
                                                    GregL-671049

                                                    easydoesit,

                                                    Their polling follows the WSJ/NBC poll's so stick your head in the sand if you want, but America is waking up...

                                                      #6.13 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:56 PM EDT
                                                      Capt Tripps

                                                      waking up from WHAT? We just woke up from the Bush nightmare, no one fell asleep again trust me.

                                                        #6.14 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:07 AM EDT
                                                        GregL-671049

                                                        Capt Tripps

                                                        From what you ask? From electing the most unqualified person,with the weakest resume of all the candidates..If anyone else presented that resume to the DNC they would have been laughed at....Just what was his record?

                                                          #6.15 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:00 PM EDT
                                                          palco

                                                          GregL-671049

                                                          Don't you think it would be better to let the adults clean up the mess before you bring back the party of see no evil,hear no evil,speak no evil ( although on this one they must choke when they say it) , really it took 8 years to start cleaning up from Regan and the First Bush, and the second bush seemed like 20 years of destruction in those 8 years. so lets wait at least eight years and hopefully sixteen before the deviated children come back.

                                                            #6.16 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:34 PM EDT
                                                            Capt Tripps

                                                            unqualified? Maybe less qualified based on the length of his career but he was what, 30 years younger than his opponent? He had an 11 year record in public office and a much longer history in public service. He had more qualifications than his closest Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton, and the benefit of not being in the party seen as basically screwing over the country for 8 years. He won on a combination of his own merit and general disgust with the Republican party.

                                                              #6.17 - Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:21 PM EDT
                                                              ewent

                                                              Brian..Didn't anyone ever tell you that predicting outcomes is a slippery slope? Everything you listed is biased information. How about you try posting facts and not yours since you don't get to have your own. If there is one thing that comes out loud and clear about your post it's that it is mostly prediction. So, if you are hoping to use that list as a way to remove this president don't bother. It should be a reminder to you that in Bush's first 2 months in office, his poll numbers dipped. You have a president who has a major task he should never have been subject to: The mess Bush left behind and had 8 years to avoid. But now, you want to blame everything negative on these past 8 months. No educated person will fall for that. What you need is a course of study in learning how to control your contrarian urges. We've got enough trouble cleaning up after Bush, we don't need divisionists making life in the US more gloomy. Obama is doing the best he can with what he was left. If you choose to live in the retardant gloom of the last 8 years fine. Misery may love company but the company is bailing..get a clue.

                                                                #6.18 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:35 AM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                AlphaDogReporter

                                                                The taxpayers have been subsidizing Walmart workers health care for years, despite the fact that the Walton family, collectively, is worth over $100 billion and it is estimated that for around 10% of that they could very adequately cover all their employees. Instead, the taxpayers are picking up the tab.

                                                                http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/feature/healthcrisis/

                                                                http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/08/02_walmart.shtml

                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                Reply#7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:25 AM EDT
                                                                skeptic-227981

                                                                Good post. I've downloaded that state-by-state report.

                                                                  #7.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:24 AM EDT
                                                                  robby-778896

                                                                  As they are for many retail workers, most of whom only work part time, and can not afford the premiums for health care.

                                                                  Everyone picks only because they are by far 6the largest, but Sears, Penny's, and every other reatil chain is in the same position.

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #7.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:50 PM EDT
                                                                  MeToo-596567

                                                                  Sounds like jealousy to me, you go into business to make money, and all people who sit there and say that the owners are rich and scum because they won't pay for everything an employee needs and wants are not thinking that that owner put up his life and risked everything to start that successful business and had to work hard to make those jobs for the American people. I for one appreciate the owners of the business's as they supply us with jobs and without them, we are going to be one great big welfare nation. I know I will get beat up over this, but I tend to look at the big picture.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #7.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:11 PM EDT
                                                                  larry-292879

                                                                  You are right to certain degree,but lets look at it in simple terms...say there were only three people in the world and you owned a store where i had to buy goods to live on...you had 80% of all the money and i had 15% ..the other guy had 5% Now i went to your store and spent 10% of my money..so now you have 90% of all the money and iam left with just 5%.you run a sale and get the other guys 5% and also get my remaining 5%...now who are you going to sale to? china?

                                                                  The rich get richer and the poor get poorer and there is nothing wrong with getting rich,but you had better start giving some back either in benefits or more pay or you might be the only one left...besides the poloticians you seem to buy...which no one wants!

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  #7.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:08 PM EDT
                                                                  Joanna Caroll

                                                                  Larry, I almost agree with you. The rich do get richer, the poor get poorer but the middle class suffers that middle-child syndrome...we are so ignored!

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #7.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:35 PM EDT
                                                                  elchiparoso

                                                                  AlphD, in this world economy many countrys help their companies compete in the world.

                                                                    #7.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:33 PM EDT
                                                                    ewent

                                                                    Alpha...Thank you for posting something some poster want to ignore...that every time big business gets a few billion in government subsidies it ends up in their CEOs bank accounts. I have never shopped at Walmart out of my sense of principles. I'd rather shop locally at the Mom and Pop shops in my town who need my help more. I absolutely refuse to make Sam Walton and his overindulged family richer than they are. Walton gets rich by making taxpayers foot the bill for his cheapness. He is so typical of what the ultra rich CEOs do to their employees.

                                                                      #7.7 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:40 AM EDT
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      itgranny

                                                                      I'm frustrated why anyone other than health insurance companies and perhaps hospitals are fighting this so bad.

                                                                      If the US draws a line in the sand and says we are never again going to say no to to treatment for that 25 year old waitress with breast cancer, or just do a pizz-poor patch job to that 8 year old that broke his leg pretty bad because they don't have insurance.

                                                                      The plan isn't perfect. There will be no such thing.... ever! But, I saw nothing that said that they can't buy additional insurance to pick up anything the basic doesn't cover.This additional could cover private rooms, moving hip/knee surgery ahead if it takes longer for elective surgeries, additional tests if wanted.

                                                                      Self centered, heartless and cruel are words that come to mind when i think about them trying to stop this. They're alright so F$#@!$#@ everybody else. Well that may be the picture now, but they are one job, one major illness, one bad accident, one premie birth away from needing this and they just don't seem to get it.

                                                                      • 11 votes
                                                                      Reply#8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:31 AM EDT
                                                                      Capt Tripps

                                                                      You have to get out and tell people, especially your Congressional representatives. I think most Americans feel as you do, but we are being shouted down by this extremely vocal, angry, misinformed minority, and it's skewing the process. More people like you need to be heard, instead of guys going on tv talking about watering the tree of liberty when all we're discussing is basically expanding and streamlining Medicare.

                                                                      • 8 votes
                                                                      #8.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:47 AM EDT
                                                                      gattes12

                                                                      I think most Americans feel as you do, but we are being shouted down by this extremely vocal, angry, misinformed minority, and it's skewing the process

                                                                      And that is the problem. If they allow themselves to get shouted down instead of fighting for it, then they deserve what they get.

                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                      #8.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:58 AM EDT
                                                                      susan-290137

                                                                      No one is against Health Reform, We just dont want the government running it, They screw up everything they touch, and they have another agenda to go with it , we poor dumb Americans are to dumb to know what is good for us so the mighty elite have to decide for us that is the problem I can take care of my own decions thank you. I work for what I have I dont sit on my porch and wait for my government check. Im smart enough to make my own mind up if a hurricane is coming, I may pay out the butt for my insurance but at least I have it and no one tells me when I can use it, sure it could be better but the government is out of my business.

                                                                        #8.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:07 PM EDT
                                                                        SuzyQ_TX

                                                                        "And that is the problem. If they allow themselves to get shouted down instead of fighting for it, then they deserve what they get." per gattes12

                                                                        So my congressman went around the end and came up with a touchdown. He got his supporters on a telephone conference and answered our questions. What happened was, the shouters went after him in front of a grocery store and managed to block people who wanted to get inside to buy their groceries. Of course he backed off to let folks go about their business. I don't know if I'll be up to it, but I sure hope I can go to his Saturday afternoon meeting at a place near the seat of government in Austin.

                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                        #8.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:10 PM EDT
                                                                        GregL-671049

                                                                        itgranny,

                                                                        You know what words comes to my mind? We are broke,who is going to pay? Sure it great to want to help the less fortunate, but there has to be a limit...We have no way to support this expense...This country is going down and everyone has their hand out..

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #8.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:22 PM EDT
                                                                        itgranny

                                                                        Greg,....

                                                                        Who's paying now? We are, just the same. I've got insurance through work, it started out 10 years ago with a 500 dollar deductable, then went to 1000, now it's 2500. and each year it goes up in price too. Take that money and apply it towards a plan that has less paperwork, across the board paperwork standards (ie: the flu shot is billed the same for grandma mary as it is for the teen johnny, therefore you have expert paper pushers rather than people trying to figure out what paperwork they need to fill out for bluecross, blueshield vs the stanford insurance) less cover your butt testing, NON PROFIT and millions upon millions upon millions of participants (not just from one state but from the whole nation) and you will have a universal policy that is less expensive. it's not rocket science.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #8.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:24 PM EDT
                                                                        itgranny

                                                                        Add to that that the hospital will not have to charge you extra because John Doe just had a triple bipass and can't afford to pay (because everyone is paying) plus when Cindy Smith takes her kid with a bad cough into ER because the clinic won't look at him because she can't afford insurance.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #8.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:30 PM EDT
                                                                        GregL-671049

                                                                        itgranny,

                                                                        I have a great plan,no cost to me..The only catch is i have to pay $15 co-pay for an office visit and $12 co-pay for meds unless it's for a 90 supply then its $22.. Now how is the Government going to improve on that? They aren't,but what is going to happen is the company is going to drop the plan we have and make everyone go on the welfare plan...It's not my fault you stayed in a dead end job.. If i was so bad you should have taken a different job..

                                                                        People think it's free,but someone will pay and more than likely it will be those who can least afford it....The Government never helped anyone....Look around and see what a wonderful job they have done in all the major city's and large population states...They are all on the verge of bankruptcy...It a vision of the future for the US...

                                                                          #8.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:46 PM EDT
                                                                          Capt Tripps

                                                                          Greg - not true in the least, and it's not like the countryside is rolling in the dough, where do you think so many of these $150,000 foreclosures are happening?

                                                                          Also the plan you just described seems remarkably similiar to Medicare. Are you aware that not all jobs even offer health insurance at the moment? Or that many who do include minimal coverage? Not "welfare" jobs my man, and no offense, but somebody has to do this countries dirty work, or are you all for letting the immigrants take over everything minimum wage?

                                                                          And the major point was, we already pay for the healthcare of people without insurance. When they show up to the emergency room and the hospitals treat them, whom do you think pays for that? WE do. Seems like it'd be a great idea to account for those costs by having everyone covered in the first place, instead of eating it in raised costs for all services.

                                                                            #8.9 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:12 AM EDT
                                                                            ewent

                                                                            GregL...Did you choose the plan you have for health care? I'd bet you didn't. You are just lucky to have those low copays. But, the world isn't focused on you, you, you. You live in a society and as such are responsible to make certain you understand what is happening to those who live in this society with you which, clearly, you do not. Your concerns about losing that gold plated health care you have are so misguided. It is absolutely NOT got that? NOT true that you'd have to opt out of your current plan. But, if your insecurities are that your employer is going to figure out how to save more money by skanking his employees, then maybe you don't have such a good health plan after all. In any case, if you lose your job, you have NO health care. How will you pay for health care then? Your views are myopic.

                                                                            I'd rather pay a small deduction from my paycheck spread like millions of other Americans than live in a constant round of fear that my employer is going to increase my $5,000 hospital deductible we currently pay and I'll end up on welfare...see the relativity there yet?

                                                                              #8.10 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:52 AM EDT
                                                                              Reply
                                                                              hopeful1-771843

                                                                              RED FLAGS EVERYWHERE The GOP has hired the Lewin Group (United Health Care) to give them information on defeating anything health care, but mainly just anything Obama. United Health Care is the insurance company you need to avoid at all cost. They were just fined millions for defrauding patients. But the GOP thinks they are golden. The GOP needs to pick better information. But when your aim is to scare old people, and spread lies, who cares? The Democrats aren't very far behind. They have a deal with the Pharma Industry, that protects the cost of drugs/ profits. This discussion needs to turn the corner and be about CARE, and ACCESS.

                                                                              I need health insurance, I can pay. I have insurance at this time. I pay 100% of the premium and have for several years. It is out of control, each year it goes up by a higher percentage, and covers less. We are fixed income now, it is over. About $1000 a month now. I cannot continue.

                                                                              Medicare is 2 years off. I am lucky in 2 years I can be on the government plan. I know many without jobs, no insurance, no income to cover the smallest health care item. Then you may find out you are uninsurable, even if you can afford it.

                                                                              Public option is necessary. I am for it, because the insurance industry is against it. I believe health care for profit, is dangerous.

                                                                              If you watched any of the hearings in Congress, you heard the best our current system has to offer. It wasn't pretty, even for those with insurance. Deny claims, call it preexisting, just make $$$$ for the CEO and stockholders. To me there is a DEATH PANEL, they are all on the board of a health insurance company near you.

                                                                              A coop may be a good idea, But how does it travel? And how do you start one, the cost of start up would be staggering, it takes so many members to work. To me a federal plan is just simple. It is not perfect, but it would cover more people, and get the cost in range. For those of us, not rich, and not employed it is a blessing.

                                                                              • 8 votes
                                                                              Reply#9 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:06 AM EDT
                                                                              Charles-666933

                                                                              Hopeful1, I believe your facts may be incorrect, Tom Daschle works for the law firm that represents United Health Care I believe. And Mr. Daschle is actively advising the white house on the health care reform but claims he is not a lobbyist? Ex Senator Daschle's connection to the white house should be investigated! Something fishy here!

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #9.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:30 AM EDT
                                                                              Dawn-296574

                                                                              Charles, the Repubs have quoted the Lewin Group extensively over the last couple of months. Follow the money. the Lewin Group is a subsidiary of United Health Care. No, they are not the law firm for them, but they are a subsidiary so-called 'research' panel. Supposedly independant. Well, when United Health Care is footing the bill for their jobs, I don't call that independant research.

                                                                              • 5 votes
                                                                              #9.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:41 AM EDT
                                                                              larry-292879

                                                                              I agree! we need health care with or without the just say no party

                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                              #9.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:12 PM EDT
                                                                              ewent

                                                                              It doesn't surprise me that a loser like Daschle would be involved with United Healthcare...who by the way has 1 of the 2 HMO CEOs who are on the US top 10 most wealthy list. This is a disgusting display of control freakism if ever there was one. It's an obscenity that such greed goes unpunished. We are Americans. We do not need control freaks of Big Insurance to rule our lives. Once and for all time, Americans who are decent, hardworking, honest and ethical must join together to stop this takeover by the royal family of Greedheads.

                                                                                #9.4 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:57 AM EDT
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                SuzyQ-982527

                                                                                This whole thing could be reformed so much more effectively than how they are talking.

                                                                                1) DO NOT ALLOW INSURANCE COMPANIES TO REPORT PHYSICIANS TO THE BOARD (this was actually put in place to allow disgruntled patients to report dangerous physicians--)

                                                                                2) TAKE INSURANCE COMPANIES OFF WALL STREET (it has become obvious that there are big $$ to loose with our senators and representatives who hold large stock and also take money from the insurance companies for campaign and etc- if these companies are forced to reform and work with a modest gain --such as what the average WORKING AMERICAN gets 2% a year and 4-6% in a good year then cost reduction would increase

                                                                                3) Expect insurance companies to deal aggressively with illness AT ITS ONSET, rather than after illness has become aggressive--this might mean 25 minute initial doctor appts rather than the preset 8.5 minute average!

                                                                                4) LIMIT the CEOs of insurance companies

                                                                                • Aetna Roberty Williams salary 1831M + 23 million compensation, increase since 2000 -1340%
                                                                                • Cigna Edward Hanway salary 1,115M +25 M compensation, increase of 13% since 2000
                                                                                • United Health - Stephen Hemsley 4654M +13.2M compensation, increase of 1380% since 2000
                                                                                • WellPoint -Angela Braly- 3,345M +9M compensation, increase of 1380% since 2000
                                                                                • the little guys such as humana, coventry, had range from lowest of 84M+1.5M compensation to 500M+18Mcomp

                                                                                5)Hold the insurance companies to their contracts with businesses and the people they are supposed to be insuring (rather than deny deny deny for profit).

                                                                                It seems like this is a place to start???

                                                                                • 6 votes
                                                                                Reply#10 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:41 AM EDT
                                                                                palco

                                                                                SuzyQ-982527

                                                                                Thanks for the thoughtful and informative post, have been rejuvenated, well said.

                                                                                  #10.1 - Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:59 PM EDT
                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                  James O'Hara

                                                                                  I have a better idea for a boy cott of whole foods.

                                                                                  It is called 1mango...

                                                                                  everyone goes in and buys just 1 mango...We block up the parking lots and registers and totally disrupting sales....then we leave... The CEO MACKEY can see your registered complaint in the form of the 1 mango sales receipt

                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                  Reply#11 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
                                                                                  popeyethesailorDeleted
                                                                                  susan-290137

                                                                                  Why would you want to hurt a business that employes over 58,000 people ? Because some Left Wing lugnut says so. He provides health care for his people and even gives benifiets to a gay partner if you have one ,all he did was disagree with the Great Obamas plan and they are trying to shred him like they do everyone that disagrees. This the most disgusting bunch of idiots we have ever had in power, God help us all they will destroy this country before they are through , but that is the plan.

                                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                                  #11.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:16 PM EDT
                                                                                  MeToo-596567

                                                                                  Susan, I am in complete agreement with you on this matter, but I may be wrong, it sounds like people are thinking if this gets passed, that it will mean 'free' health care for them, or at least almost free. This will cost 'everyone' more than they know.

                                                                                    #11.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:30 PM EDT
                                                                                    larry-292879

                                                                                    susan and me too... please call palin and see if she would anex alaska and be you president

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #11.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:15 PM EDT
                                                                                    noobamaosamaever

                                                                                    Susan, This is the liberal mindset. Kind of like Hussein calling the cop racist and accusing him of racial profiling before he asked his teleprompter for advice..LOL

                                                                                      #11.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:39 PM EDT
                                                                                      MeToo-596567

                                                                                      Larry, as I sit here wondering what you have actually contributed to this vine, I wonder what on earth gives a person the mind set that the world owes him a living, and that he does not have to work to live like the rest of the human and animal world to survive. BTW, your sarcastic remark shows a lack of imagination.

                                                                                        #11.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:08 PM EDT
                                                                                        elchiparoso

                                                                                        James O'Hara, are you upset because Whole Food's CEO is saying something that may affect your health insurance. My God, it may hurt you, but who cares about those 45 or 50 millions that do not have any insurance coverage. This to me appears to be greed showing its face. Always looking out for number one, RIGHT! TODAY IT MAY BE THE 45 OR 50 MILLION WITHOUT HEALTH INSURANCE, TOMORROW YOU MAY JOIN THAT NUMBER. Do not say never. I am sure that during the depression there were many wealthy men and women that thought they would never loose their wealth.

                                                                                        When considering my less fortunate fellow men, I always believe in the saying, "But for the grace of God there go I".

                                                                                        Thank God that to this day, I have been able to provide for myself and have been able to help others.

                                                                                          #11.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:44 PM EDT
                                                                                          larry-292879

                                                                                          me too, want some imagination ? how about this...I saw god last night he came to me and when i asked who he was he said iam god and said to me please forgive metoo and susan for they not know what they speak....so i said ok!

                                                                                            #11.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:57 PM EDT
                                                                                            MeToo-596567

                                                                                            Much better larry, lol.

                                                                                              #11.9 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:22 PM EDT
                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                              sparcboy

                                                                                              The "public" already has options. The "public" has several different insurance companies and usually several different plans within each insurance company it can choose. Some in the "public" choose not to pay for health care because they would rather do other things with their money. And absolutely no one, not even those here illegally, or without medical care. Any one can walk into any emergency room and receive medical care.

                                                                                              It is not a "public option". It's the "Government Option".

                                                                                              Sadly, Obama and others are on record stating their ultimate goal is a single-payer (socialized medicine) system.

                                                                                              Government option health insurance is just their foot in door toward their ultimate goal.

                                                                                              Wake up lemmings and stop drinking the kool-ade.

                                                                                                Reply#12 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:03 AM EDT
                                                                                                itgranny

                                                                                                The problem with insurance companies is that by the time they have their administrative costs and profit margin, people can't afford them.

                                                                                                Next, tack on the extra costs in YOUR bill the hospitals and clinics need to tack on because people don't pay.

                                                                                                Then tack on the additional Emergency Room costs that get added on because that's the last place left for uninsured people can go without getting turned away.

                                                                                                I agree with you, wake up you lemmings. Stop listening to Fox news. Take a look at the big picture and start asking yourself the "what if's". That's what intelligent people do. What if my job ends next week, what if i get hurt and end up being a paraplegic, blind, or lose one of my hands? How am i going to pay for health insurance 10 years from now when the rates are rising 3-4 times as much as inflation.

                                                                                                If you don't like the basic coverage you'd get with the gov. healthcare policy, I don't have a problem with you donating your hard earned money to the multimillionaire CEO's of the healthcare insurance industry for the deluxe plan. But most of us would rather not.

                                                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                                                #12.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:47 AM EDT
                                                                                                jwel

                                                                                                If you've never sat in the waiting room of a free clinic in an impoverished inner city neighborhood with a toddler who's running a fever of 105 and climbing, along with about 75 other sick or injured people (who are in  line ahead of you), you might begin to understand the the  desperation felt by so many of your fellow Americans.

                                                                                                I was the 20-year-old mother of said toddler, and her newborn brother.  I didn't work outside the home because childcare would have eaten up my whole paycheck.  I was married to my children's father, who was employed full time as a machinist's apprentice.  His employer paid minimum wage, and provided no health insurance.  

                                                                                                Maybe if my daughter had gone into convulsions (or worse) in that free clinic, she would have been given priority over those ahead of us.  But we didn't wait to find out.  We went to a nearby hospital emergency room, where she was diagnosed and treated.  But it took a long time to pay off the bill.  Incidentally, if we had not been able to pay the bill, it would have fallen on the shoulders of society, and in that instance, would have been socialized health care.

                                                                                                I sincerely hope that those who see the vast numbers of uninsured Americans as undeserving slackers just waiting for a handout from the rest of society never find themselves in a free clinic with a life-threatening or exceedingly painful condition wondering if their number will even be called before the clinic closes.  But if they do, I hope they remember that there was a time when they would condemn others to the same fate.

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                • 7 votes
                                                                                                #12.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:06 PM EDT
                                                                                                Joe-668085

                                                                                                sparchboy

                                                                                                Maybe you should stop driking the capitalist Kool aid. Eventhough i have good job and good insurance,i believe in an equal society for everyone so i applaud social medicine.

                                                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                                                #12.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:12 PM EDT
                                                                                                MeToo-596567

                                                                                                oh jwel, I am sorry for the illness, but if this passes, I am afraid that even that emergency room will be impossible to get into, as the gov't may be the ones deciding who gets help first, and we all know exactly how capable they are at making decisions.

                                                                                                  #12.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:18 PM EDT
                                                                                                  susan-290137

                                                                                                  What you just described in the Free Clinic is exactly what you will be dealing with if the government takes over. Use your head and think what will happen when the whole country is on free medical care. Not enough Doctors or nurses or medicene or clinics to tak e care of anyone. Why would anyone want to be like Canada or UK or Russia they are emploding and wanting to go back to what we have but it is to late and too hard to undo. There are other options but the Mighty Obama will not even consider any, he wants to take over every inch of your life and this is the first link in doing it.

                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                  #12.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:25 PM EDT
                                                                                                  Bruce-361175

                                                                                                  sparcboy

                                                                                                  You didn't get the memo? Rush is calling all things Obama "Facist" now. Please try to keep up or give up your "ditto head" status.

                                                                                                  A public option s one available to everyone and provided by a "public" entity rather than a "private" (insurance co.) company.  Please try to keep up.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                  #12.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:33 PM EDT
                                                                                                  Joanna Caroll

                                                                                                  Susan, the public option is not a free plan.

                                                                                                    #12.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:02 PM EDT
                                                                                                    jwel

                                                                                                    Susan and MeToo:  Regarding the free clinic:  For one thing, the doctors and nurses who operated it were wonderful, when they finally got to people.  The donated their time every Thursday evening because they saw the need and they were good, kind-hearted people.

                                                                                                    Regarding your ominous predictions of what would happen if we had a public option: 

                                                                                                       To continue the health care situation my family found ourselves in, things got better.  By the time my babies were 1 and 3, we were enrolled in a university hospital health care plan for low income families.  For a $2.00 "co-pay" per visit, we received excellent health care, whether it was a well-baby checkup and vaccinations or a serious emergency.  Also, we were able to choose our own doctors, and were treated with respect and dignity.  This was government-paid health care.

                                                                                                       Much later, we adopted a son whose deceased father had been career army.  Our son received survivor benefits, and was covered by army health care.  The co-pays were a little higher, but he received excellent health care.  And since he was an extreme athlete, he needed it.  Again, government-paid health care.

                                                                                                    Oh, and incidentally, I have climbed out of poverty and work full-time, paying taxes and donating to charities.  But I still do not have health insurance.  I can't afford the $1000 a month for the premiums.  And I'm all too familiar with horror stories about how doctors and hospitals can still determine who gets treated, when, and and how. 

                                                                                                    So, please, you can't scare me with your koolaid politics.  I've seen much worse than government paid health care in both the free clinics and in the corporate health care system. 

                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                    #12.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:25 PM EDT
                                                                                                    oldtimevalues-945340-1088820

                                                                                                    jwel, You tell about the government options you had for healthcare. Do you think your $2 co-pay was the actual cost, or it might've been a bit more? And who do you think picked up the rest of that nice little tab for your care? Umm... that would be me.

                                                                                                    You can thank me now for your near-free healthcare, just think how much more I'll be helping when we add how many more million to it? Guess I should be thankful to the government for trying to help me become more benevelont. Shame on me for thinking I already gave enough when contributing to my own choice of charitable organizations.

                                                                                                      #12.9 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:45 PM EDT
                                                                                                      ewent

                                                                                                      sparcboy...Who do you work for? In my company, not only do we not get a choice of plans, but in 10 years, we've had 6 changes of plans all meaning 6 changes of primary care physicians if they were not in the plan network. You are sooooo out of touch with reality. How about you call my employer and tell him to give us a choice of public options. He'll laugh you off the phone in a heartbeat. All he cares about is his bottom line...not my health.

                                                                                                        #12.10 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:01 PM EDT
                                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                                        scitizen

                                                                                                        Lets face it! American Free Enterprise businesses and corporations want nothing more to do with employer-based benefit plans. They are a drag on their earnings and the "elite ownership" only wants growth and profits for themselves and those on the higher food-chain. (They have us believe with growth they will hire more workers........only if they have to.) They have been systematically eliminating retirement plans, pensions, medical and other benefits for the past 20+ years. The only thing that has them over the barrel for now is women and minority preferential treatment.

                                                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                                                        Reply#13 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:23 AM EDT
                                                                                                        MeToo-596567

                                                                                                        As is the American way, no, the common sense way scitizen. I would be willing to risk my everything to make money starting a new business that will supply alot americans with jobs, maybe no insurance, but jobs that will help them survive.

                                                                                                          #13.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                          Judy-851743

                                                                                                          Is that all we, as Americans, can aspire to now? Just plain survival? Isn't that pathetic?

                                                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                                                          #13.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:30 PM EDT
                                                                                                          MeToo-596567

                                                                                                          Judy, you have had that opportunity to start a business just as they did, what I find pathetic is the name calling of the very 'employers' that did this very thing. You choose the path of your life, you fight for it, you dig for it, you don't deserve it, you earn it.

                                                                                                            #13.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:33 PM EDT
                                                                                                            Concerned-340935Deleted
                                                                                                            Concerned-340935Deleted
                                                                                                            larry-292879

                                                                                                            yes like the republicans say give the rich a tax break...that will help us.maybe they will feel sorry for the rest of us americans,but what ever you do dont tax oil they will just raise the price like everyone else has done.I know drill baby drill that is the answer

                                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                                            #13.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:29 PM EDT
                                                                                                            MeToo-596567

                                                                                                            I am called a pig by concerned, yet I am the one willing to accept responsibility for my own choices and decisions, I am not a business owner, so don't ask for my gum as I don't have it either, but I am not willing to begrudge a person whom risked everything and worked and slaved to get where they are, a profit margin.

                                                                                                              #13.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:00 PM EDT
                                                                                                              larry-292879

                                                                                                              to conerned and metoo i agree we sometimes do have great employers,but what makes them great emplores are just as great employees.The ones that sometimes get rewarded for making the company profitable.And concerned you are not a business owner or if you are one not a very good one with statements like that

                                                                                                                #13.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:06 PM EDT
                                                                                                                ewent

                                                                                                                scitizen...Actually, they aren't really over a barrel with women and minorities. Ever hear of those "backpage" profiles on job applications? Oh sure, they file the clean backpage without those "code" markings where the Labor Dept. can inspect it. All the while, the others are kept in a locked filed elsewhere. In the case of women, these cretons of industry have no problem burying a woman in legalities and paperwork until they go bankrupt if they dare try to prove a corporation has skanked them. They automatically assume most minorities don't have the kind of money it takes for long drawn out legal cases. So, they don't have any worries there. How do I know? 20 years as an "executive" secretary to CEOs. Hence, my attitude of revulsion toward them.

                                                                                                                  #13.9 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:06 PM EDT
                                                                                                                  ewent

                                                                                                                  Metoo...Now...Can you please explain the difference between honest profit margins and skanko profit margins achieved by price gouging the middle class? Can you also please explain the difference between profit margins that have not been earned with the help of employees and those that have been earned by making employees pay for their health care effectively reducing their salaries further down the line of serfdom?

                                                                                                                  Sorry, but what you support is greed. Not what is the greatest good for the greatest number. You may as well admit that you support the Greatest Good for the Greatest Rip Off CEO. How did you think that 11 million people lost their jobs in the last 8 years if not because people like you snuggled up to Chief Decision makers and enabled them to make obscene salaries and bonuses for every job they shipped to cheap labor countries where no health care, no job safety and child labor is the rule? Greedhead enablers like you make me cringe. I see what their greed has done to my country. You are clearly to blind to see past the dollar signs.

                                                                                                                    #13.10 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:13 PM EDT
                                                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                                                    joybird

                                                                                                                    I cannot believe that this post only has 20 comments. This debate all along I fear has been more about Obama than about Health Care. The birther movement; angry mobs, some carrying guns repeating racists remarks, this has nothing to do with the issue of Health Care. Repugs...... please don't all speak at one time, but I dare say here is a chance and a grand oportunity for you to debate the almighty and the can do no wrong corporate world of BIG BUSINESS. Lets see you debate them for a change!!!!

                                                                                                                    • 5 votes
                                                                                                                    Reply#14 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:27 AM EDT
                                                                                                                    gattes12

                                                                                                                    Joybird,

                                                                                                                    It is great to see Americans finally waking up to this fact. Everything has been about protesting the Obama Presidency and that is all. and just think of who the LEADER of that cluster is going to be.

                                                                                                                    I can add another example:

                                                                                                                    Chuck Norris and the Seceders. (I still say good riddance).

                                                                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                                                                    #14.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:12 PM EDT
                                                                                                                    susan-290137

                                                                                                                    Who do you think Obama is in league with ? He has gotten rid of the businesses he does not want and now he is aligned with GE and Goldman Sachs and all the others that he is funding with our money . Give me a break Open your eyes and see .

                                                                                                                      #14.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:29 PM EDT
                                                                                                                      Joanna Caroll

                                                                                                                      Susan, I find your comment about Obama and Goldman Sachs pretty funny. It was GW Bush who for 2 years begged Paulson to join his team at Treasury. Paulson, former CEO at Goldman Sachs, took on the job but it is Paulson, under Bush, who will long be remembered as the man who led this economy and the American people to hell, saving only his beloved Goldman Sachs.

                                                                                                                        #14.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:15 PM EDT
                                                                                                                        ewent

                                                                                                                        Johanna...Now ask Susan to explain how of all of the financial institutions in the country, only Goldman Sachs escaped the hardships of this recession and didn't need a bailout. Smells badly. But, don't look for any information from Goldman Sachs on this curiousity of financial wizardry.

                                                                                                                          #14.4 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:26 PM EDT
                                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                                          Judy-851743

                                                                                                                          The reason that this post has so few comments is because the right-wing followers of the likes of Rush, Beck, Palin, etc who are so woefully misinformed and keep harkening back to the same old tired and idiotic arguments ("drink the kool aid", "Socialism!" "Death panels", "Kill grandma!", etc. ad nauseum) cannot contribute anything to an intelligent dialogue without resorting to threats and insults. When they are faced with people who can actually respond intelligently, they cannot hold up their end of the conversation. That's when the insults start flying. When I see these people on television shouting down anything that our representatives are trying to say at town hall meetings, I just seethe. It is impossible to talk sense to people who don't have any and are not interested in hearing actual facts anyway. Amazingly, most of these people are already collecting some kind of benefit from a government-run program. If they aren't collecting Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid, you can bet that their parents or grandparents are. They somehow do not connect the dots. "All government run programs are bad!" "Obama wants to turn this country into a socialist state!" "The government will tell you what doctor you can go to and you won't be able to go to the hospital!" I hate to tell them this, but if they have health insurance, they are already being told who to go to (it is called "preferred providers" in an HMO or PPO)...they already have to get "precertification" before they can be hospitalized. The insurance company has nonprofessional people on staff who will determine how long you can stay in the hospital before they will stop paying for care. If the patient is not discharged when the insurance company determines they should be, they will not pay the bill for any more inpatient days. Effectively, most people have to leave once their insurance stops paying, so it is the same as having the insurance company dictate whether you are well enough to go home or not. There are so many ways in which insurance companies are telling people what they can and cannot do. Still, some of these right wing nuts cannot see the handwriting on the wall. I am only 3 years away from Medicare, but we need a public option so that the greed of these insurance companies will have some competition. Forget trying to have a reasonable discussion with one of these right-wing nut jobs. It is like trying to debate the abortion issue....cannot be done. When all else fails, they will drag in religion or some such crap and then the debate goes downhill from there. I'm just waiting for one of these fanatics to drag out their guns. Stupidity has no bounds.

                                                                                                                          • 7 votes
                                                                                                                          Reply#15 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:42 AM EDT
                                                                                                                          gattes12

                                                                                                                          The reason that this post has so few comments is because the right-wing followers of the likes of Rush, Beck, Palin, etc who are so woefully misinformed and keep harkening back to the same old tired and idiotic arguments ("drink the kool aid", "Socialism!" "Death panels", "Kill grandma!", etc. ad nauseum) cannot contribute anything to an intelligent dialogue without resorting to threats and insults.

                                                                                                                          Judy the other reason why they cannot contribute is because this article and others that are beginning to surface are starting to debunk right-wing claims.

                                                                                                                          In addition to that, this story and the rising cost story being run today actually contradicts their entire standing. Now who are they fighting for?

                                                                                                                          • 6 votes
                                                                                                                          #15.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:14 PM EDT
                                                                                                                          susan-290137

                                                                                                                          You are going to feel like a real Dumb A$$ when you finally wake up and see what is going on. Wish I could see your face it would be priceless.

                                                                                                                            #15.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:32 PM EDT
                                                                                                                            BuckWheat-776921

                                                                                                                            Just because you and others say we need a public option, does not make it so.

                                                                                                                            "Why do we need a public option?"

                                                                                                                            Is it to get something for nothing?

                                                                                                                            Is it so you can get something at someone elses expense?

                                                                                                                            Do you think if its a government program that it's majically free?

                                                                                                                            Please tell us how much you are willing to pay towards this public option?

                                                                                                                            And if the cost is more than what you are willing to pay, who is to pay for the rest?

                                                                                                                              #15.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:03 PM EDT
                                                                                                                              larry-292879

                                                                                                                              thank you judy!

                                                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                                                              #15.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:40 PM EDT
                                                                                                                              stressedinnebraska

                                                                                                                              Judy I woke up this morning and I found that the morons had taken over the world. The Republican party has been dragging out their big guns to inflame the great unwashed masses and they have done a bang up job so far.

                                                                                                                                #15.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:04 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                MeToo-596567

                                                                                                                                Judy, the right wing as you call them, know that this will cost everyone dearly!!! who do you think is going to pay for this? We are not just talking 'death panels' and 'socialism', we are smart enough to see that the payroll taxes you see currently on your paycheck, are currently 6.2% ssi, 1.45% med besides the f/w that is just employee share, imagine seeing 10.9% ins too. The poor can not stand to see their checks any smaller and their grocery and clothing items larger to help pay for this.

                                                                                                                                  #15.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:16 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                  Lone Ranger-1249924

                                                                                                                                  Judy- Agree with you whole heartedly. So tired of the republiscum and their inane rants.

                                                                                                                                    #15.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:29 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                    MeToo-596567

                                                                                                                                    That makes 4 democrats calling names, can you not have a proper debate and discussion without resorting to immature name calling?

                                                                                                                                      #15.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:01 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                      elchiparoso

                                                                                                                                      The right wind Republicans are in disarry because now some in big business are telling the trueth about the sky rocketing cost of medical care in this country and how it is affecting their capitalist profits. The right wing has always been pro-business now they can not stand that the same people that they defend are saying their is a serious problem with health care in our country. COST IS GOING OUT OF CONTROL!

                                                                                                                                        #15.9 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:04 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                        Bill - Texas

                                                                                                                                        Health care reform DOES NOT mean "free" health care. Don't know why all you right-wing extremists keep saying that. Oh, wait. Maybe I DO know. It's the same crowd that spreads the "death panel" insanity, the "birther" thing, the "teleprompter" thing, and the "Odumbo has spent more money in 6 months than GWB did in 8 years" thing.

                                                                                                                                        Read the bills now floating around in Congress. The goal is to make health care more affordable so that people CAN afford to BUY it. The real debate is over how to accomplish that. The so called "public option" is aimed at increasing competition, thus bringing down prices. Another possibility is raising taxes. Yet another is to make enrollment in health care mandatory for every person in the country. There are also variations of these options, i.e. clearing houses, etc.

                                                                                                                                        I personally have issues with several of these options, especially the tax raising one. But I'm not crazy about the government's public plan, either. However, I'm not running in tight little circles screaming about communism, trampling on the Constitution, driving the country to ruin, the sky is falling, or whatever. You right wing extremist head cases seem to only be in favor of doing nothing. You claim that "it ain't broke, so don't fix it". You brag about paying your own way, so everybody else should do that same. Do you all work? How much of your health care cost is covered by your employer? Do you even know how much the total cost per month is? I don't think so.

                                                                                                                                        The current projected rate of increase is 10.5% this year. It's been in double digits for several years now. How long do you think it will take to double at 10.5%? Well, less than seven years. Will your salary double in seven years? And what happens if you have to pay for ALL your health care costs, like I do. You'll be singing a different tune.

                                                                                                                                        The system IS broken, and it needs fixing. At last, Washington is trying to get serious about fixing it. About time. So, you right wing extremist wack jobs just sit back and keep saying "NO" while the rest of us try to figure out how to fix the problem.

                                                                                                                                          #15.10 - Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:04 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                                                          Husker54

                                                                                                                                          The solution is fairly easy. I am an employer and I pay $14,000 a month for my 11 employees' health insurance. In my opinion, every employer should have to pay for their employees' health insurance. But I want something in return. When you go to the doctor, you must either show an insurance card, an unemployment card or a card saying you are retired with insurance. If you do not have one, your name, address etc., is turned over to the IRS and the immigration authorities. This will have a significant affect on the tax cheats and the illegal immigrants. You would cover 90% of the Americans in the bad times and 95% of the Americans in the good times. Since most Americans would be covered, you would not have the hospitals passing down their losses to the insured and their would be a huge market that would attract cost cutting, etc. Simply pass a law to phase this in over a 5 year period.

                                                                                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                          Reply#16 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:56 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                          Judy-851743

                                                                                                                                          Good idea

                                                                                                                                            #16.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:59 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                            anti-trust proponent

                                                                                                                                            You forgot the self-employed who can't afford to buy any insurance plan as an individual. Without a "public option" like BCBS USED to be, we don't have any choice other than shutting down our business. Mandated insurance for all employers and self-employed will do just that and further drive the mom & pop businesses out of business. Of course that is exactly what the Wal-Marts, K-Marts, Home Depots, OfficeMaxs, etc. would love to do. Drive away all of their small competitors by requiring ALL businesses to have health insurance, whether they can afford to pay the premiums or not. You can be sure mandated coverage WILL NOT lower any premium costs. It will only insure even greater profits for the insurance companies.

                                                                                                                                            • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                            #16.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:09 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                            Husker54

                                                                                                                                            Excuse me, I have been self-employed since 1982. I have always paid for my own health insurance. Yes, it was tough, but I made a choice to forego other things I could have done with the money because I was raised not to depend upon other people. If necessary, we can use tax credits for the low income to help defray part of their cost. Additionally, I expect this program to decrease taxes because the people flying below the radar will have to start paying taxes. Finally, it will lower costs because there will be more competition for dollars being spent on insurance. Remember, Adam Smith.

                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                            #16.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:39 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                            Left Coast

                                                                                                                                            Husker54: I appreciate your post and I have a question about your employee insurance. Say one of your employees has some serious medical condition and you notice a lot of claim activity from that employee, has your insurance company ever contacted you about the excessive claim activity and tried to increase the insurance cost based on the claim activity?

                                                                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                            #16.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:06 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                            Husker54

                                                                                                                                            Leftcoast- My son had a medulloblastoma removed in 2007. His medical bills have exceeded $500,000. Our insurance rates have gone up, but have not exceeded the normal increase. One of the points in my plan would be you can not lose coverage or be denied coverage because of serious medical conditions. My son was very fortunate. He is doing fine now and if you know anyone who has cancer from a single source tumor, they need to look at proton radiation. A good background for proton radiation is: www.mpri.org. Follow the links to the video. It is amazing.

                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                            #16.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:19 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                            js-445607

                                                                                                                                            Many large institutions have an insurance pool, which assists them in receiving better and lower rates due to the volume of workers they employ. This allows them to offer better benefits for their workers. This is all well and good, but the insurance companies need to offer every employer a decent rate so all workers can benefit. Some large companies offer insurance with a $1000 deductible. Many workers will rarely, if ever need more than $1000 worth of care in a calendar year, so this is a big bonus to the employer and the insurance company. When most of us look at the premiums we’ve paid over the course of our working years we find that the insurance companies have made quite a profit from our contributions.

                                                                                                                                            I am of the opinion that everyone should be assisted in health care support. Children, the elderly and the poor are often lacking the most basic healthcare due to the cost of treatment. Society makes fun of the disabilities of this neglect, yet seemingly reluctant to pitch in and find a solution. When a person is afforded healthcare they are also educated in many ways to assist them in knowing what maintenance works to keep them healthy. By refusing to cover everyone with some health benefits is akin to saying they are part of a disposable community and not worth caring about.

                                                                                                                                            Arguments aside, the topic of some type of healthcare for all is a crucial subject of discussion and with all of our comments we are at least addressing an issue of great value.

                                                                                                                                            • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                            #16.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:13 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                            elchiparoso

                                                                                                                                            Husker, not all Americans pay tax. There are people in this country that are wealthy and pay little or no tax, because of tax loop holds. There are other that do the make enought money to have to pay tax, they are hardly making it. When you say tax credit. Do you mean something similar to the earn income tax credit? Which by the way is limited. This credit can be a gift from the government because the individual had no tax liability. Do we give them the total amount of the health insurance premium. You have not provide enough information to someone who knows a little about taxes. You appear to have been hearing lots of Republican congressmen that will not give any details on how the tax credit will work, because they either do not know, or it will be soo low that it will not even make a dent, or they do not want to get their constituents angry, because of the give away.

                                                                                                                                            I can not believe how people can be soo disingenuous.

                                                                                                                                              #16.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:17 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                              Husker54

                                                                                                                                              Obviously, I do not have all answers. There needs to be a happy median somewhere. What I am trying to avoid is a huge bureaucracy and adding to our deficit. I also believe everyone must pay for a portion of the costs. Otherwise they will not appreciate what they are receiving.

                                                                                                                                                #16.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:36 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                ewent

                                                                                                                                                Husker54...You are a perfect example of why I personally am appalled that employers have rights over someone else's health care. Count the number of days those HMOs force employees to run after referrals for something as stupid as an ingrown toenail that's requires in-office minor surgery. Count the number of days your employees are forced to take time off to get to HMO doctors who no longer work after 7 PM, nor should they given that most days a doctor is at the hospital by 6 AM. Any employer who makes the decision to change HMOs more than one in 10 years should get a fine. Any employer who sticks his nose into his employees health records deserves a fine...Shall I go on?

                                                                                                                                                  #16.9 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:03 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                                                  Independent-384094

                                                                                                                                                  What Obama is really about is providing free or next to nothing costs for about 40 million people? He has no intention of controlling costs and this whole health plan will not be fully in effect until he is about to leave office in his second term (if he wins in 2012.) Thus, he will not really have to take responsibilty for any mess he helps create.

                                                                                                                                                  Note to Obama: Try to control costs in Medicare and Medicaid and lets look at what is happening in Massachusetts and try to learn before trying to jump into something he really knows very little about.

                                                                                                                                                  And do not believe it when he states illegals will not be eligible. Once he makes them "legal" then they will be eligible. Does anyone seriously doubt me on this issue? Obama is a master wordsmith and half-truth teller (otherwise known as a liar).

                                                                                                                                                  The whole healthcare system is a mess and I don't see the Republicans doing anything constructive either. Yes, I know the Dems will block any commonsense approach offered that is not redistributionist, but the Republicans have an obligation to put forward some proposals themsevles. If they don't pass, so be it. But at least you are on record. And it has to be something besides tort reform and medical savings accounts even though those are important.

                                                                                                                                                  No matter what, even low income people need to actually have significant deductibles and co-pays. It can not just be "free" for everybody else to pick up the tab. And we can not continue to have 1.2 million legal immigrants coming to the U.S. each year sucking up jobs and usually not having health insurance. Naturally all those in the country illegally should be deported (don't use children as an excuse), then that would not be an issue.

                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                  Reply#17 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:58 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  robby-778896

                                                                                                                                                  FREE? What part of the word premium do you not understand? The President has been on TV a number of time and stated, that he would love it if healthcare could be free, but that is not going to happen, not now, not ever.

                                                                                                                                                  Medicare and medicaid are what a good portion of HR3200 talks about, so he is ahead of you, and you have not read what it is they are trying to do.

                                                                                                                                                  Also once a person is legal, then then they are no longer illegal, so that is a stupid argument.

                                                                                                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                                  #17.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:04 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  NancyforO

                                                                                                                                                  Independent 384094

                                                                                                                                                  We get mad about illegals but who do you hire for the jobs that you know a US person would not do? Who do you get to cut your weeds and clean up your mess? When we stop paying illegals for cheap labor, they will stop coming to the US. When we can no longer find someone to do the job that no one else wants to do then what?

                                                                                                                                                  Lets see if we can control our greed then perhaps things will get better for all. Everyone else has to do it right? Not me, just you. If everyone else will stop being greeding and looking for cheap labor then maybe I can have all I want. It is the Me generation

                                                                                                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                                  #17.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  anti-trust proponent

                                                                                                                                                  Both the Repugs and the Dems have had between 40 and 60 years to correct this healthcare problem (depending on what date you want to consider as the beginning of the problem.) Every past attempt by either party (mostly by the Dems) has been shot down by the other party (mostly Repugs.) Part D Medicare under the previous Repug controlled Congress/administration was a total disaster that ONLY benefitted the insurance companies and the pharmaceuticals, not the seniors it was supposed to benefit.

                                                                                                                                                  As for legals or illegals sucking up jobs here, check your information again. Most of those jobs are being filled because NO AMERICAN wanted to work in that job at the wages the company was willing to pay. Our own greed, as well as the greed of the companies, is what has destroyed our employment chances and drawn in the immigrants.

                                                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                  #17.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:16 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  GregL-671049

                                                                                                                                                  NancyforO

                                                                                                                                                  No one has ever cut a blade of grass,trimmed a hedge or a tree on my property in the 30 plus years i have lived here...That argument, that they only do jobs no one else will do is old and tired out.. There were property management people long before the illegals came and i am sure there will be long after they are gone....

                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                  #17.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:39 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  NancyforO

                                                                                                                                                  GregL-671049

                                                                                                                                                  I lived in Ca. before moving here to N.C. You could drive thru town and on certain corners you would see illegals waiting to be picked up for a job. When you drove back by a little later they were all gone having been taken to do a job that no one else wanted to do. Just because you cut your own grass does not mean that a majority do. My argument is valid as I have seen it with my own eyes.

                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                  #17.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:48 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  js-445607

                                                                                                                                                  Basing illegals is such a lame reason for balking at healthcare reform. We invite illegals to come to the US for their lower wage requirements. Does this mean that they are not intitled to health benefits, nor a living wage becaue they are illegal? This makes no sense at all.

                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                  #17.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  GregL-671049

                                                                                                                                                  js-445607,

                                                                                                                                                  I have seen some dumb remarks on here, but you take the grand prize...YES,it mean's they don't get health care...If you feel so bad for them,then hang around the ER of your local hospital and pay their bill when they leave...I don't want to...

                                                                                                                                                  I have never asked anyone to come to the US..If it was up to me i would round them up and send them back...

                                                                                                                                                  I have a friend who's daughter nearly lost her life,from being attacked and kidnapped by an illegal..Sorry if i am not feeling gracious towards them...

                                                                                                                                                    #17.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:53 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                    ewent

                                                                                                                                                    GregL...You seem to be a lot ungracious about a lot of things. People with negative attitudes attract more negativity. As for illegals, not all of them are bad. And most wouldn't be here if their own country was more civilized. So you friends' daughter was attacked. Does that mean these illegals should return to countries where there is so much lawlessness and vile crime and their only future is death? The reality is that most of the illegals would love to return home. They can't. Your high-handed attitude is part and parcel of the "Haves" that are all too vocal in speaking for others.

                                                                                                                                                      #17.8 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:18 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                      ewent

                                                                                                                                                      Independent...Which is better? Paying employer-provided health care premiums to the tune of a couple of thousand a year which keeps HMO CEOS on billion dollar salaries or paying your government to offer a plan where you actually have a choice? As with Medicare and Social Security, these programs were set up to help people who had the unfortunate fate of not affording college back in the 1930's and 40's or who had to work on family farms for room and board. Whose fault is it that government spends more on war toys than on the health of its citizens?

                                                                                                                                                        #17.9 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:36 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                                                                                        Florida Woman

                                                                                                                                                        Usually my argument would include the fact that as the richest nation in the world, we should be able to  give our citizens decent health care.  This time, from a purely business perspective, how can American companies hope to compete in the global market if they are burdened with healthcare costs for their employees and their foreign competitors are not?  Almost all of our trading partners have universal health coverage paid by taxes.  Yes their tax rate is high, but they know they will be taken care of.  And they probably live longer because they are not stressed out about losing their insurance!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                        • 5 votes
                                                                                                                                                        Reply#18 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:59 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                        Husker54

                                                                                                                                                        This is a false argument. We are competing with countries that have a much higher tax rate than America because they must pay for their countries' health insurance program. The problem we have is people want something for nothing. I am tired of paying for the dead beats health costs. I have always had health insurance and believe me, sometimes it really hurt to pay the costs. If you have to have insurance to drive a car, you should also have health insurance.

                                                                                                                                                          #18.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:10 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                          robby-778896

                                                                                                                                                          A couple of things. First off nowhere has free health care, it is always paid for some how. In Ontario, a business with a payroll above $400,000 per year, pays a health care tax that goes at about 2%, and the federal tax rate stops at 29% in Canada, so when you compare that to what a plan currently costs here, it is easy to see who has the advantage.

                                                                                                                                                          Husker54, where have you seen any free plan being talked about, do you listen when the president speaks, or just shout at the TV. If you read HR3200 or listen to any of the presidents talks, he says as does the bill, that the system will cover its costs with premiums.

                                                                                                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                          #18.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:12 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                          Husker54

                                                                                                                                                          I gladly will take the overall tax bite in the United States compared to Canada, anyday. The United States does not have a VAT or the numerous other taxes Canada has.

                                                                                                                                                            #18.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:45 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            Left Coast

                                                                                                                                                            We can not afford to ignore the uninsured. The uninsured will increase especially come November when the COBRA subsidy runs out and the premiums skyrocket.

                                                                                                                                                            Having health insurance tied to employment is a bad idea. The minute one uses it too much then the company they work for starts reviewing their financials and the company gets reports on employees causing too much claim activity and costs go up for the employer by the insurance company. Pretty soon, the sick employee starts receiving poor performance reviews as a means to push them out because they cost too much by using their health insurance.

                                                                                                                                                            • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                            #18.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:10 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            Husker54

                                                                                                                                                            Left Coast- you are wrong. All you do is have to pass a law to the contrary and place it under the civil rights laws. These laws permit attorney fees, costs and punitive damages. As an employer, you do not want to mess with these laws. Additionally, the uninsured in this country have no ability to pay for even a minor operation because of the tremendous costs. However, the plans I would envision, would have co-pays. The co-pay amounts would not be that great most persons could not pay, so persons would pay them. On the other hand, they would realize they would have to pay for these costs and Americans may try to stay healthier and see their doctor more often. The plan I offer to my employees pays all the costs of annual physicals, etc. It does have a $4,000 deductible and a 80/20 co-pay up to an additional $4,000 for unexpected medical expenses. However, I also pay a $2,000 annual contribution to a health savings account for each employee and a $5,000,000 limit.

                                                                                                                                                              #18.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:31 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                              Left Coast

                                                                                                                                                              A company that intends to rid itself of an employee who is costing too much in insurance claims would commit financial suicide if they admitted that they were giving bogas poor performance reviews. So they don't go down that road.

                                                                                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                              #18.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:52 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                              Wallybox

                                                                                                                                                              The uninsured are not my responsibility, neither are the ones that eat hambugers, fries, coke and smoke like there's no tomorrow. Why should I have to be the one to help flip the bill for the ones that do not take care of their own health. Any plan that the government puts in place will not all of the sudden make the ones abusing their health, healthier. It's only going to flood the doctors, clinics and hospitals with even more health care costs than we have now. Our government will be forced to spend more than they ever imagined and the ones that pay the bulk of the taxes will be the ones to pay for someone else's mess.

                                                                                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                              #18.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:03 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                              Left Coast

                                                                                                                                                              Wallybox: I agree with you that if people live an unhealthy live style they bring a tremendous amount of health problems upon themselves by their actions.

                                                                                                                                                              However, I'm sure you are aware that lots of healthier food choices are priced more expensive. Example: an unemployed person may have a child who is allergic to milk so it is suggested they buy soy milk instead. Soy milk is twice as much as regular milk that is on sale for two gallons for $4.00. We have Henry's Market here in San Diego and they offer lots of health food but it is so expensive. In my case my husband has spinal arthritis and degenerative disc disease and recently he is now in a wheel chair due to extreme numbness in both legs. His industry turned their back on him when a refrigeration unit fell on him in his warehouse that he managed for 15 years. Our income went from upper middle class to lower class (not Welfare). I always try to buy healthier food but I can't always afford it.

                                                                                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                              #18.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                              js-445607

                                                                                                                                                              Wallybox, you may be exempt from caring, but many of us want to educate everyone to insure a healthier America. Abuse stems from lack of knowledge. For those who do not have the basic tools, or the information needed for improvement are going to continue to make poor choices. If we all take the "You snooze, you loose" attitude we are the losers.

                                                                                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                              #18.9 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:29 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                              Husker54

                                                                                                                                                              Left coast- The last civil rights discrimination case filed in Omaha cost the employer more than $3 million. As I said in my earlier posts, I employee 11 persons. We are in a small business pool. If any company should have an insurance increase due to illness, it would be mine. However, our rates have not jumped more than the norm. Your concern could easily be handled by the law and giving the smaller companies the right to form their own insurance cooperatives to purchase as a group.

                                                                                                                                                                #18.10 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:00 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                Left Coast

                                                                                                                                                                Husker54: thank you for your reply. Unfortunately it is not easily proved by the law. That's the key.

                                                                                                                                                                  #18.11 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:53 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                  elchiparoso

                                                                                                                                                                  Husker, our business do not compete against other businesses in other countries they compete against that industralize country. There is a big big difference. Putting it another way, our business competes with other industrialize country. There are very few, if any American COMPANY, that can compete with an industrialize COUNTRY.

                                                                                                                                                                  You know what I mean Company against the Country. Get it.

                                                                                                                                                                    #18.12 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:00 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                    ewent

                                                                                                                                                                    Husker54...Your insurance rates are Midwest, are they not? Try owning your business on the east or west coasts where the population is doubled. As for your idea that the US competes with other countries, are you suggesting that anyone is South America is going to pay your prices for whatever it is you are selling? Then, there is the matter of why there are no jobs opening up....employers who chose to offshore 11 million jobs to cheap labor countries who now turn around and zap us on import costs. No..we don't have a VAT tax. Maybe that's our loss. If we export less than we import, what does that tell you? It tells me that American employers buy more foreign goods to avoid paying taxes in their own country. You pay taxes to keep your country No. 1. It's why we all pay taxes. We may not like it but unless you can come up with a tax-free national plan, you're rhetoric is passe. I'll go you one better, I'd bet your company couldn't compete with a single East or West coast company of the same size. Why? It's that old "small business mentality" that tells employees "if we keep it small, it's more controllable". How's that work when half the population is out of work thanks to the obscene salaries of CEOs?

                                                                                                                                                                      #18.13 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:44 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                                                                                                      RAC 0129

                                                                                                                                                                      sparcboy

                                                                                                                                                                      The issue is that ALL of the alternatives are as expensive as the next. They are ALL too expensive to the point of not being affordable. There is little or no competition. This is a cost issue - plain and simple. Even removing the health insurance companies from the equation will only temporaily postpone the increased cost we see as consumers.

                                                                                                                                                                      Here's a ittle factoid that I think helps illustrate the issue:

                                                                                                                                                                      Since 1965 the CPI (inflation) has increased 684%. Health care costs have risen 5,640%.

                                                                                                                                                                      Switching from one insurance company to the other isn't going to fix it. It is the equivalent of moving the chairs around on the Titanic. The SYSTEM is broken. Many different causes. It is extremely complex. Here is a list that only scratches the surface:

                                                                                                                                                                      • MRIs rather than X-Rays
                                                                                                                                                                      • Expensive multiple blood tests for everything
                                                                                                                                                                      • Very little planning for health mostly planning for sickness
                                                                                                                                                                      • not being prepared for end of life decisions
                                                                                                                                                                      • Health insurance companies that are motivated by excessive and greedy management system
                                                                                                                                                                      • Increasing doctor's salaries and overhead
                                                                                                                                                                      • Increasing nurses salaries and benefits
                                                                                                                                                                      • Hospital costs - wages, building costs etc
                                                                                                                                                                      • Increased insurance costs
                                                                                                                                                                      • Inefficient administration practices (paper vs. computerized)
                                                                                                                                                                      • etc etc etc

                                                                                                                                                                      I am convinced the free-market-for-profit model and health care is not a good match. There are others - yes a public option - but also a private non-profit model which should be given serious consideration. Having stockholders and CEO compensation that is obscenely out of balance being given precedence over health care services to the people paying the premiums is not a good fit.

                                                                                                                                                                      Everyone admits the current system we have is failing. At least, everyone who is able to assess the situation objectively.

                                                                                                                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                                                                                                                      Reply#19 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:03 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                      Husker54

                                                                                                                                                                      I am not trying to be rude, but when the government has had a monopoly on mail delivery for almost my entire lifetime is deep in red ink, do you really think they can make a go of health care. I believe in the free market. I also believe you must take responsibilty for yourself and your family.

                                                                                                                                                                      • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                                      #19.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:33 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                      RAC 0129

                                                                                                                                                                      Of course they can make a go of it. You still get your mail don;t you? We pay mor for stamps and more taxes to support it. What are the costs associated with the postal system and how have they been rising? Probably to pay people more, provide higher levels of service - air frieght and mail etc. Don't know - this conversation is about health care and insurance.

                                                                                                                                                                      Please notice I did not limit my options to the public option. I mentioned private non-profits specifiall as something we should be considering along woth the other.

                                                                                                                                                                      And right now, yes, I would rather have a government bureucrat rather then the system we have in place.

                                                                                                                                                                      Sometimes people take care of themselves and things still happen - accidents, sicknesses like cancer, Muscular dystrophy etc. Everything in fact many things are not a factor or under your self control.

                                                                                                                                                                      I am not against the free market in general. It is appropriate in most areas and works for many things. I am challenging it as the right model for health care given the nature of the consequences of the decisions which are life and death, financial ruin

                                                                                                                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                                                                                                                      #19.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:04 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                      robby-778896

                                                                                                                                                                      Husker54

                                                                                                                                                                      You can not compare the post office to health care. First of the post office is mandated in the constitution, so they must have it. Its problem are not from poor management so much as new technology, email, fax, and online statements and account payments is what has dropped the amount of income they see.

                                                                                                                                                                      Healthcare does not have those type if competition, it would be great if oneday it did, where your home computer could fix you right where you sit, but for now it is not happening.

                                                                                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                      #19.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                      Husker54

                                                                                                                                                                      Robby- I believe you need a lesson in economics 101. Businesses with monopolies do not lose money unless something is really, really wrong. Additionally, there is absolutely nothing stopping hospitals from lowering their charges and competing if they know they will be paid for their services.

                                                                                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                      #19.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:52 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                      Oklahoma Guy

                                                                                                                                                                      Husker, the postal service runs very efficiently. You think Fed-Ex or UPS would like to take on delivering a payment from California to New York withing one or two days. As someone stated earlier due to the advent of email, online bill pay etc there are not as many items being mailed hence loss of revenue. But as you stated that is just economics 101. Guess you missed that class.

                                                                                                                                                                        #19.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:49 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                        Husker54

                                                                                                                                                                        Dear Boomer Sooner- no, I did quite well in econ. I believe if you check your history, the cost of mailing a letter has gone up faster than inflation and they have always had a problem with red ink. Part of their problem has been political. Our congressmen and women have been reluctant to close post offices in small towns. You will have the same problem with a government run health care system.

                                                                                                                                                                          #19.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:05 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                          elchiparoso

                                                                                                                                                                          Husker, you bring a very good point that I have been waiting for some one to bring up. You are talking about the United Postal Service competeing against FEDEX and UPS, the big brown. Let me give you a few facts, Congress regulates the postal service, the postal service hands are being tied. They are not allow to operate like a business. What company do you know in the world delivers first class mail for 42 cents. The Federal Government does not provide tax funds to the postal service, yet it regulates it as a government agency. The postal service has can not do many things without government authority.

                                                                                                                                                                          If the United States Postal service was deregulated and allowed to run like a business I assure you it would give UPS and FEDEX a run for its money and possibly put them out of business. This is just food for thought to many of you that think government can not be competetive. It can be, if it were not for the big business lobbiest. UPS and FEDEX does not want to have the United Postal Service as a compeditor. I assure you of this fact.

                                                                                                                                                                            #19.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:11 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                            ewent

                                                                                                                                                                            Husker54...Business who operate a monopoly are violating Anti-Trust laws, are they not? Isn't that why Gates Microsoft got into trouble for attempting a computer system monopoly? And, when a business is a monopoly how is that free or fair trade? You may be self-employed but it is clear you also have a small business mentality that needs some fresh ideas and air.

                                                                                                                                                                              #19.8 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:48 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                                                                                                              Arthur-379160

                                                                                                                                                                              Medical Care overhead expenses for Medicare are well below 5%, but for private health insurance companies it is over 30%.

                                                                                                                                                                              This is the reason many large corporations are self-insured, and only use insurance companies for claims processing (paperwork).

                                                                                                                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                                              Reply#20 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:04 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                              RAC 0129

                                                                                                                                                                              Excellent observation! The common thing is the costs are rising for all - private public, self-insured. Health care costs is the key! Now - how do you do that?

                                                                                                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                              #20.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:25 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                                                                                                              Judy-851743

                                                                                                                                                                              Yes, Florida Woman. It is all tied together. This is one of the reasons that companies are moving offshore. They don't have to pay for health insurance in foreign countries so they are more able to compete. American companies are automatically at a disadvantage if they want to keep their businesses here and employ Americans. Not only do we have a huge trade deficit, Americans are losing their jobs every day because American companies are closing up shop here in the States and taking their companies to countries where government health care is provided. I don't care what anybody says. I still think that Americans have the best work ethic in the world and certainly have the most ingenuity and creativeness. It is so sad that our young people cannot find a decent paying job now. I still think that if we can figure out this health care thing, it will help keep American companies here. As far as the illegal alien issue, we are already paying for their health care indirectly. Instead of going to a doctor for care, they wait until they are so sick they can't stand up and then go to an emergency room where it ends up costing thousands more than if they received treatment early on. Same with pregnancy. They just go without prenatal care until it is time to deliver and then present themselves to a hospital. Now, we have a newborn who needs intensive care and a mother who may be toxemic or have other complications that could have been avoided. These things all drain our resources. Usually the hospital picks up the tabs for this in the form of charity care, but in the end, we all pay by paying higher premiums and higher hospital bills. It is very complex and needs rational thought...not screaming at town hall meetings about Nancy Pelosi and whatever other nonsense comes out of these people's mouths. I'm tired of them. I'm sick of the idiotic rhetoric and wish our elected officials would just do it, already. Nobody will be happy anyway. Might as well do it and get it overwith and give these right wing nuts something to really complain about. They are bound and determined to complain anyway. What else would Rush have to do with his day?

                                                                                                                                                                              • 5 votes
                                                                                                                                                                              #21 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:11 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                              Husker54

                                                                                                                                                                              I may be wrong, but American companies are closing and taking up shop because the costs of labor are extremely low in India, China, etc. The costs of health care really have nothing to do with it, otherwise Europe would be experiencing an economic boom. We as Americans need to realize there is no such thing as a free lunch, shrink our government, reduce our deficits and stop relying on Uncle Sam to provide for us.

                                                                                                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                              #21.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:27 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                              itgranny

                                                                                                                                                                              Judy, you bring up a good point, the companies just move offshore. That is something that needs to be fixed too. it's not fair that American worker's wages need to compete with China's and India's and therefore the company's responsibility to this country ends, even though they are selling here. If these companies want to get their products back in america, they should be paying tariffs equal to or greater than the money being lost by putting the american people out of a job. We are not getting products cheaper anyway, the cost savings are just going to their CEO's and shareholders.

                                                                                                                                                                              It's time we start looking after our own interests first. It seems like it's been a goal to see which CEO makes the most money, while it should be a goal to see every American with a roof over their head, healthy food on the table, good health care and good dental care. Believe me, there will still be enough left over for some to be fabulously wealthy.

                                                                                                                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                                              #21.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:30 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                              SuzyQ-982527

                                                                                                                                                                              Judy, I am a business and I pay 400 a month per employee, and my employees pay 150. It all depends on how the business is set up. Schools are government run, so they pay less for insurance, requiring a higher input from the teachers, and a lower level of care than what I provide!

                                                                                                                                                                                #21.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:41 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                Judy-851743

                                                                                                                                                                                OK Husker. I'll go along with all you're saying. Now, are you going to take in your aging parents and grandparents when they cannot work anymore? Are you going to support them, get up in the middle of the night to put them back to bed when they wander, have episodes of incontinence, cannot get around on their own? You're going to do all this while you still get up every day to go to work, try to pay for your kids to go to college or at least help them, or maybe just get them through grade school and high school. Of course, your wife can't work because there won't be anybody at home to take care of all four of your parents. So, now you're down to one income (yours!). You still have kids to support, a house payment, a car payment, utilities, and health insurance to pay for. There are no government run programs to help you out..you're on your own now. No home health aides, no Social Security from your parents to help you out financially. Oh, let's not forget. Your parents don't have Medicare either. So now you have to try to figure out how you're going to pay for their health care and medications. I hope you make a ton of money and can get by without much sleep because I predict you'll be working more than one job to try to do it "all on your own" without any government assistance.
                                                                                                                                                                                I think the idea of shrinking our government is all well and good until you get right down to the nitty gritty of what that really means. Think it through. People are having a tough enough time trying to cope with raising a family and possibly take care of their aging parents at the same time. While all this is going on, we are losing our good paying jobs to overseas labor where they have no unions, no child labor laws, no restrictions whatsoever on how they treat their employees. All of you who want to do away with government run programs have clearly not given this a lot of thought. Now that the republicans have finally broken the backs of the labor unions here, maybe we will have $10 an hour jobs waiting for our high school and college graduates. Of course, they won't be getting health insurance, but there won't be anybody in government who is going to make them insure their employees because it's every man for himself now.
                                                                                                                                                                                I see that as being the biggest problem. Our society has become a nation of "looking out for number one!". As long as "I get mine", everybody else can go away and die. There is no loyalty to American companies, no loyalty to our elected officials, no loyalty to each other.

                                                                                                                                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                #21.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:42 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                Husker54

                                                                                                                                                                                Since when did I say I was ending Medicare? I simply said companies are moving overseas due to lower labor costs. The problem we have is so many Americans want the other person to pay for their problems. Health care is no different. The problem Obama is having is middle class Americans know there is no such thing as a free lunch and we are tired of paying for other peoples problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                #21.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:01 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                Judy-851743

                                                                                                                                                                                What other people?

                                                                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                #21.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                Husker54

                                                                                                                                                                                Judy- in this case, the other people would be the 40% of Americans that do not have health insurance. When they get really sick or hurt, who do you think pays their bills? The best situation for the unemployed is a strong economy that results in low unemployment, not a government handout.

                                                                                                                                                                                  #21.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:38 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                  MICKA

                                                                                                                                                                                  Husker54: You are right the biggest problem is the 40% who do not have insurance. I am one of them. Worked all my life, had health insurance. Laid off in Jan. No cobra, not old enought for medicare. Hurt my back 3 years ago so now no insurance company will cover me even with a rider on back or high deductiable and premium. Blue Cross, United Health, Humana, all say - no way. Have a little money in 401 so can't qualify for medicade. My daughter is a school teacher - can't afford to put her two kids on group insurance and still have money to eat. I was help paying for their ins. can't do it now so they don't have coverage. We are not dead beats, we are not welfare screw ups WE ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES . We are your neighbors, your friends, you set next to us in church. What is wrong with Universal Health Care? I don't want it free - I just want it available and affordable.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                  #21.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:07 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                  John-917435

                                                                                                                                                                                  First of all Medicare and Medicaid are going to fail. Canada has come out and said its system cannot be sustained. Do you know 30% of Canadians do not have insurance for an ambulance to transport them to a hospital in case of an emergency?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Companies are not moving overseas just because of healthcare costs. They are moving overseas because we have the third highest corporate tax rate in the world and you think the corporations pay those taxes?!? It just becomes added cost to the end product American consumers purchase. The government fooling you into thinking the evil business owners are taking form you when once again it is the government doing it in a business owner's clothing. So they move overseas and pay cheap labor costs and little taxes.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Now, healthcare costs are out of control. A lot of unnecessary tests are done to satisfy insurance companies so they can win cases against a myriad of frivilous lawsuits. How about some tort reform? If insurance companies are not spending all their resources and asking for more tests to be administered so they do not get sued for undeterminable amounts of money they might be able to keep their costs down thereby keeping insurance premiums down. Lawyers produce nothing. The governemtn produces nothing. How is it the lawyers get richer and everyone else ends up getting poorer? How is it the government keeps getting bigger yet everyone else keeps getting poorer? With a small government and limited population of litigators you would have a society of people who produce products! We could call it real capitalism, which by the way we have not been for a long time.

                                                                                                                                                                                  We live in a country where a person who has worked and paid taxes their whole life has to pay for their children's college education but someone from a foreign country can come here and get it for free. The same will be done with healthcare. Our government is bankrupt. It has bankrupted itself just like many Americans have by spending what it/they do not have to spend. The dollar has not fallen against the Canadian dollar because of healthcare. It has fallen because the world has started moving out of dollars because they are starting to fear a day will come when the 'AAA' rating given to our debt is downgraded and eventually we will come to a point where we cannot make our interest payments.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Forget about healthcare. What good will it be when even the government cannot tax the American people enough to pay for it for you? Money has to come from somewhere. Go take an economics class.

                                                                                                                                                                                    #21.9 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:47 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                    Persevere

                                                                                                                                                                                    Micka -

                                                                                                                                                                                    I’m trying to leave my office, really trying hard and soon will absolutely have too. BUT, I am glued to my monitor as I read post after post that touches my heart such as yours.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Folks, this real life, this post is so representative of so many families across this once great nation of ours.

                                                                                                                                                                                    We are at the end of the day All AMERICANS…. that old song verse;

                                                                                                                                                                                    “this land was made for you and me” how true it sounds today.

                                                                                                                                                                                    This land was not made for (CIGNA, AETNA, UNITED HEALTHCARE ETC BIG PHRMA) nor did the GI’s in Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan and all over the world die in vain, that their descendents and family members, the children and grandchildren they would never see, would be subject nothing less than “Health Squalor”.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Lets have the courage to at least call it for what it is…. Rotten Squalor!!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                    #21.10 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:55 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                    Persevere

                                                                                                                                                                                    John - it is not nice to lie to the American people, please stop youre lies.

                                                                                                                                                                                    MEDIA RELEASE August 12, 2009

                                                                                                                                                                                    On eve of medical association’s annual meeting:

                                                                                                                                                                                    New poll shows overwhelming support for public health care;

                                                                                                                                                                                    CMA president out of touch with most Canadians

                                                                                                                                                                                    (Ottawa) In a last ditch effort to convince Canadians that the public health care system

                                                                                                                                                                                    should be privatized, Canadian Medical Association (CMA) President Robert Ouellet has

                                                                                                                                                                                    promised to “pull out all the stops” during the association’s annual meeting next week.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Trouble is, Dr. Ouellet’s mission to “lead the change” to privatization, is exactly the

                                                                                                                                                                                    opposite of what 86% of Canadians want.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A new poll conducted by Nanos Research points to overwhelming support (86.2%) for

                                                                                                                                                                                    strengthening public health care rather than expanding for-profit services. “With more

                                                                                                                                                                                    than eight in ten Canadians supporting public solutions to make public healthcare

                                                                                                                                                                                    stronger, there is compelling evidence that Canadians across all demographics would

                                                                                                                                                                                    prefer a public over a for-profit healthcare system,” said Nik Nanos, President of Nanos

                                                                                                                                                                                    Research. Nanos Research was commissioned on behalf of the Canadian Health Coalition

                                                                                                                                                                                    (CHC) to conduct a random telephone survey of 1001 Canadians between April 25th and

                                                                                                                                                                                    May 3rd. The margin of accuracy for a sample of 1,001 is ±3.1 percentage points, 19

                                                                                                                                                                                    times out of 20.

                                                                                                                                                                                    As well, the federal government just released its report: Healthy Canadians – A Federal

                                                                                                                                                                                    Report on Comparable Health Indicators 2008. Its findings identically mirrored the CHC

                                                                                                                                                                                    polling results. In that report, a leading indicator pointed to the fact that, “Most

                                                                                                                                                                                    Canadians (85.2%) aged 15 years and older reported being ‘very satisfied’ or ‘somewhat

                                                                                                                                                                                    satisfied’ with the way overall health care services were provided, unchanged from

                                                                                                                                                                                    2005.”

                                                                                                                                                                                    “Throughout our campaign, Canadians have told us they want to keep our health care

                                                                                                                                                                                    system public and to improve it with made-in-Canada solutions. They also have told us

                                                                                                                                                                                    they flat-out reject Dr. Ouellet’s proposal to provide us with American-style two-tier

                                                                                                                                                                                    medicine. This poll certainly underlines that for us. Eighty-six percent is a significant

                                                                                                                                                                                    portion of the population,” said Michael McBane, National Coordinator of the Canadian

                                                                                                                                                                                    Health Coalition. “It is striking that Dr. Ouellet could be so out-of-touch with the pulse of

                                                                                                                                                                                    most Canadians.”

                                                                                                                                                                                    McBane warned that Dr. Ouellet’s latest effort to replace public health care with a private

                                                                                                                                                                                    system uses language that is misleading. "If imported into Canada, Ouellet's ideas about

                                                                                                                                                                                    activity-based funding, 'competition' and more private delivery would not yield

                                                                                                                                                                                    European-style care but instead would lead us down the road to US-style care. At the

                                                                                                                                                                                    CMA’s annual meeting later this month, you will hear Dr. Ouellet talk about ‘patientcentered’

                                                                                                                                                                                    care but he really means ‘profit-centered’ care. He will talk about

                                                                                                                                                                                    transformative health care – which really means transforming a public system to one that

                                                                                                                                                                                    is private. He will also unveil results of a CMA survey that he claims shows support for

                                                                                                                                                                                    his new privatization scheme. In fact, the language used in the CMA survey was so vague

                                                                                                                                                                                    and misleading that its results cannot possible be interpreted as support for more forprofit

                                                                                                                                                                                    medicine."

                                                                                                                                                                                    McBane said that Dr. Ouellet, who owns or manages 5 private, for-profit diagnostic

                                                                                                                                                                                    clinics, has a history of misleading Canadians. Recently, the CMA president toured

                                                                                                                                                                                    Canada touting the merits of what he called the European model of health care – cobbling

                                                                                                                                                                                    together selective pieces of information from different European systems to lull

                                                                                                                                                                                    Canadians into accepting the idea of more private, for-profit service.

                                                                                                                                                                                    “Dr. Ouellet needs to stop misleading Canadians and start telling them what he’s really

                                                                                                                                                                                    up to – privatizing our health care system,” said McBane. “His ‘transformational change’

                                                                                                                                                                                    agenda is his last kick at the can before becoming the CMA’s past-president. Dr.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ouellet’s privatized, for-profit vision won’t solve a single problem of our public health

                                                                                                                                                                                    care – and more importantly, Canadians don’t want it. And they’ve said this loud and

                                                                                                                                                                                    clear.”

                                                                                                                                                                                    The Canadian Health Coalition is a not-for-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to

                                                                                                                                                                                    protecting and expanding Canada’s public health system for the benefit of all Canadians.

                                                                                                                                                                                    For more information:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Michael McBane, National Coordinator

                                                                                                                                                                                    Canadian Health Coalition

                                                                                                                                                                                    Tel.: (613) 277-6295

                                                                                                                                                                                    www.medicare.ca

                                                                                                                                                                                    Has the thought of money, that maybe the so strong allure of money the avaricious, gluttonous, obsession of money has anything to do with this campaign against the Canadian people? The utter transparency,

                                                                                                                                                                                    How long Dear Lord how long

                                                                                                                                                                                    MEDIA RELEASE August 12, 2009

                                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                    #21.11 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:09 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                    Persevere

                                                                                                                                                                                    John - the lies the lies, please stop

                                                                                                                                                                                    It really upsets me when people get on their grandstand and spout shameless lies on such an important matter as this. In fact, I detest the outright lies I hear about Canada from people such as you that purport to speak for the Canadian people and distort, to suit your agenda, what it is the Canadian people want and don’t want.

                                                                                                                                                                                    This is AMERICA and in case you have not noticed the American people want HEALTH CARE now, not some other time, now, that means right away, it also means, as we say out here in California, land of the foreclosed.

                                                                                                                                                                                    …..Pronto…Amigo…Maricon

                                                                                                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                    #21.12 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:31 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                    itgranny

                                                                                                                                                                                    John, you've been had. You say we have one of the highest tax rates, about 40%."Wow" you say, "that's a lot!" but the part that they fail to own up to is that with the very generous deductions very few corporations are paying anything even close to that. it's more like half that. there's a few that even depreciate stuff out so much that they even get refunds.

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=784#_ftnref2

                                                                                                                                                                                      #21.13 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:58 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                      Husker54

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dear Micka- I am sorry for your situation. You need to read all of my posts. I have simply stated that all employers should pay for the health insurance of their employees. Obviously, this must be factored in over time. By law, an employer could not discriminate because of health and pre-existing conditions would not be a factor because everyone would be covered. This would avoid a big government beauracracy most Americans are concerned with and the pool of dollars would create significant competition which would lower costs. Also, I believe it would lower taxes because the tax cheats and believe me they really do exist, would be forced to declare their income. In your situation, once you found employment, you would get insurance which would cover your pre-existing injury and your daughter and her family would be covered, too. Finally, I hate United Health Care. They were on automatic denial with my son until we started complaining to the Nebraska Department of Insurance. Final score Andrew 13 - United Health Care 0.

                                                                                                                                                                                        #21.14 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:17 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                        elchiparoso

                                                                                                                                                                                        Husker, there you go again making it look like health cost is not much of a factor. Than why is it that some companys are starting to speak up about the issue. The problem has been that for more than forty years we have refuse to see one of the problems because we were soo comfortable with employer paid health insurance premium. That could soon be changing big time. If you expect to get any help from your Republican party when that happens you are due for a rude awakening. Wake up now before the chicken comes home to roost.

                                                                                                                                                                                          #21.15 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:17 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                          Husker54

                                                                                                                                                                                          elchi- and just how do you propose to control the costs? The most efficient system in the world to control costs is the free market. Just ask Russia. Oh, and please do not think I am comparing our President to a Russian dictator.

                                                                                                                                                                                            #21.16 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:55 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                            robby-778896

                                                                                                                                                                                            John-917435

                                                                                                                                                                                            First of all Medicare and Medicaid are going to fail. Canada has come out and said its system cannot be sustained. Do you know 30% of Canadians do not have insurance for an ambulance to transport them to a hospital in case of an emergency?

                                                                                                                                                                                            Most Canadians love what they have, and would never trade it. As for ambulance coverage, that like all health care is a provincial matter, so it varies from province to province. But in Ontario if the trip is medically necessary as determined by the doctor, then you pay a $45 co-pay, if the doctor says no, then you pay $240.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Note that people in all provinces are exempt from the ambulance charge based on their own lot in life.

                                                                                                                                                                                              #21.17 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:31 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                              ewent

                                                                                                                                                                                              Husker54....You posted that American jobs are offshored because of the lower costs of labor. Here is what I get from your post:
                                                                                                                                                                                              1. American laborers should work for the same salaries as foreign laborers.
                                                                                                                                                                                              2. American employers shouldn't have to pay taxes on the profits they earn as a result of the labor of their employees.
                                                                                                                                                                                              3. American businessmen are entitled to lay off 11 million people, force them onto welfare roles because as they chief decision makers you all are, you have the right to dictate how American society should live because you also control the lions share of money and as a result have the power to destroy our country's economy.

                                                                                                                                                                                              If you think you are the best example of an economics genius, you need to hire George W. Bush to run your company for a year. Then, come back and tell us how much health care you needed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                #21.18 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:59 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                luci-373507

                                                                                                                                                                                                Let em pay.  Company CEO's make millions, while their workers get by.  These companies can afford health care for their workers.  The best way to have good health care is through ethical, good companies.  It keeps freedom alive and everyone benefits.  And it keeps government socialism out.  Hats off to Safeway.  Other companies should follow their example instead of complaining about what they need to do to keep thier workers healthy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Reply#22 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:24 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  citizen2008

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A very good friend is a teacher in Colorado's largest school district. She pays $600+ per month in addition to the $16 per month the school district pays for her minimal health insurance. The coverage does not include prescriptions, vision or dental. The school district offers only two plans. As a single woman, nearing retirement, she can no longer pay for her health insurance. Businesses complain about having to pay for health insurance, but they don't have to pay much in comparison to the employee.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Another friend owns her own small business (4 employees). It is cheaper for her to pay each employee $75 per month for them to purchase their own indepent health insurance than to add them to her insurance with Kaiser.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There is no answer to all the health care problems that will satisfy everyone. It's time for everyone to stop complaining and come up with a viable solution that will address the needs of the majority. Sounds socialistic, doesn't it? But that is the direction this country is heading. Live with it, or get off your butt and change it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 7 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Reply#23 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:31 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Judy-851743

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Where can her employees buy health insurance for $75 a month? I would love to know the answer to that one!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #23.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:46 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  anti-trust proponent

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So would I, especially an individual plan. The lowest premium I've found on an individual plan for a person over the age of 40 is $500/mo with anywhere from $1500-5000 deductible and maximum lifetime of $2M payout. Hope a person has no major health issues while on that plan.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #23.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:28 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Persevere

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hey Citizen - You are asking us to get off our behinds? OK, I can do that

                                                                                                                                                                                                  We are going to change "it", too an affordable "Public Option" health plan care for all Americans. Lend a hand or step aside, your fellow citizens, I hope in my heart, are finally on a crusade for our families and children. Lets not forget our grandchildren and nieghbor, people I will never see, but I can have the satisfaction that my fellow citizen is not going to go broke because someone in that family got sick. That is over with, that is going to be a relic of recent a past.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  How much more clear can I be......................

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #23.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:47 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  citizen2008

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kaiser will insure an individual for as low as $187/month depending on the coverage they choose. I called them to verify. My friends contribution is more than fair. My concern is larger companies and organizations saying they offer health care benefits but pay less than 2% of the cost.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am more than willing to pay more taxes so every U.S citizen will have an opportunityto purchase health insurance. Are you? Lets consider another country's policy towards health care. The Netherlands. Citizens pay up to 68% in taxes there. There is almost no poverty in that country. It has one of the best education systems in the world. Education is "free." They also have legalized euthanasia. Part of the socialized medicine program. research the socialized medicine programs in other countries of the world. You will be amazed at the cost to each person living there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  We get what we pay for. It all comes down to what the American public is willing to pay. Don't raise my taxes, you say? Fine, pay for your own health insurance and let others do the same. Or, design a system fair to everyone, including the unemployed, elderly, and the terminal. Maybe the Federal Government should not be reaponsible for the health care of its people, the individual states should be without Federal involvement.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Once more, there is no easy answer. Not all the people will be happy with whatever is decided. Write your Congressional Delegation with your opinion and any viable solutions you can think of.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #23.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:11 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  elchiparoso

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would love to find out where I could pay 75 dollars a month for family health insurance to. That sounds like a bargin. You could find that price in LALA land.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    #23.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                    citizen2008

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't know where you are getting your medical care, but here in the Denver area I have never had to wait more than a day to get in to see the doctor when I have been ill. Usually I can get in the same day with the PA or the Dr. Our pediatrician will see our kids when they are sick the same day. Last month I called because the 8 year old was running a fever for two days and they saw her within the hour of my call. If you are getting such lousy medical care, find another doctor and tell your old doctor why you are leaving the practice. Tell your DOCTOR not the front office. As for emergencies, use some common sense and go to the ER. The Denver area has an outstanding ER system for pediatrics through Children's Hospital. There are Children's Hospital satellite ER rooms at the local hospitals. The doctors are all affiliated with Children's Hospital.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Bottom line: If you don't like the manner in which yoyu are treated by your doctor, let him/her KNOW. Do it in writing and copy the local Medical Association.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                    #23.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:11 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                    citizen2008

                                                                                                                                                                                                    elchiparoso

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Please read post 23-4, the first pargraph. Maybe if you would read the post you wouldn't be making such silly comments. My friend contributes $75 towards the cost of health insurance or more than 40%. Not 2% like some big businesses.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                    #23.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:18 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ewent

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Citizen...The problem is the plan the employers choose for their employees which is why health care shouldn't be in the hands of any employer. There are several different types of HMO plans, all of which begin with blue plate coverage that costs more down to the least expensive plan which is paid for by the employees or has high copays and deductibles. All require you to sign on with a primary care physician in the specific HMO network and to only use hospitals and specialists in their network no matter how from away they my be located. Most of the primary care physicians are then expected to give employees referrals for any specialist they may need to see. You can see where that is going to cost the employee a copay to get the referral and for the specialist visit. Two copays where only one should exist. Who pays that? Not the employer who chose such a crummy plan.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      #23.8 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:06 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                      sikandtired

                                                                                                                                                                                                      gattes12 - spoken like a true Democrat. Wake up and realize this will not work. Ask someone who tries to get a doctor's appt in England.... You better hope you're not over the age of 50... !

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Reply#24 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:46 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                      gattes12

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Wow. This post all the way down here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Figures.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't need to travel all the way to England when I can see the problems right here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                      #24.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                      anti-trust proponent

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Guess this person hasn't tried to get a doctor's or dental appointment in most places in America lately. Try 2-3 months unless it is an emergency.....or "sorry, we aren't taking any new patients."

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                      #24.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                      MICKA

                                                                                                                                                                                                      anti-trust proponent: Were you ever in England or Canada for health care or are you taking the word of Rush, Beck, etc? I have been in England and needed care for an injury. I got right in, great care, help in getting home and I paid -0- for this. Got home and had to wait 24 days to see my own doctor and then another 2 weeks to see a specialist. Don't talk the talk unless you have walked the walked. Have employer provided insurance - still ended up with over $5000 out of pocket expense in the USA.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        #24.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:12 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                        itgranny

                                                                                                                                                                                                        sikandtired... and we all know that government / liberal ideas never work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • 40 hour work/weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • job safety requirements (damn them hard hats are a nuisance!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • food safety
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • FDA isn't perfect, but it's sure better than just letting a drug out with no testing
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • public libraries
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • public school
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • fire departments
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • police/sheriff department
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • military
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • air traffic controllers
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • roads

                                                                                                                                                                                                        We would all be better off with out government involvement.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          #24.4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:07 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Persevere

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Micka – can you help me find the answer?

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Why do these sheep speak about places they have never been too for medical help?

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Then if that were not shameless enough, go on to speak for the people of an entire foreign country?

                                                                                                                                                                                                          It is so incomprehensible; its impossible to know what planet these people are living on. The thought that they are real drones is a real possibility; they can't possibly be part of Humanity. Oh that is too harsh, arrested development is nicer and more accurate. Lets forget uneducated, why think when boss Limbaugh can do all the thinking for you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Good Luck………..

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                          #24.5 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:10 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Persevere

                                                                                                                                                                                                          itgranny -

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Gee, everything you mentioned I just take for granted, maybe we are communists and never knew it? Humm...............

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I think we are all going to have think about this, sounds like a plot to takeover my country.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                          #24.6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:19 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                          itgranny

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Persevere, could be!

                                                                                                                                                                                                          : )

                                                                                                                                                                                                            #24.7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:28 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                            elchiparoso

                                                                                                                                                                                                            It sounds like we need more doctors, in addition to a new way of delivering health care. PA and experienced Registired Nurses should be part of the equation and doctors only for more serious ailments. Physicians Assistant, is the procedure of delivering health care is the way my internest doctor is using. I only see him when the PA does not feel comfortable about the condition. I have had an opportunity on occassion to see the actual doctor. Why is it that we think we need to see a doctor for everything? Many times there are other people in the medical food chain that have more experience and knowledge than some doctors.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I recall a sitiution when working in my yard I cut myself to the bone on one of my figures. They called a specialist, but he was not able to come. Quest who took care of the situation after speaking with the doctor a very very experienced REGISTER NURSE. Everything came out AOK.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              #24.8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:28 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Persevere

                                                                                                                                                                                                              elchiparoso - hey Palco sorry but the vine is not always posting correctly

                                                                                                                                                                                                              elchiparoso - I am trying to answer your question as to why it took so long to have a doctor look at your cut hand, and that you thought there might be a shortage of doctors. I hope you get too read my post - sorry Palco

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Your right on target, the American Medical Association has for over half a century, take heed now, for over half a century kept the level of physicans and family practionars at an pre-ascertained level. The AMA knows not to help fund new medical schools and has held the flow of family practitioners at a pre-determined level. Now, the family practitioner is the easiest physician to put through Med. School and they are the lowest paid relative to the specialist. I think we are all on the same page on that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              No new Medical colleges have built since I don't know when. Why would the AMA want that? So we have a lot of doctors that would be family practitoners go into specialties. They are paid more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Where we as a people have failed is to plan, look over the horizon and see the need of Americans now and in the future. The AMA is not going to put out more doctors, so that leaves only one source with the financial might to pursue a plan to put more doctors into our society. But, here is where the rubber meets the road.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              That one entity with the dollars to put 5,000 family practitioners into society, by year 2020, are the taxpayers representatives in congress. To put it mildly, our congress is bought off, bribed, to look the other way, not to plan. To think of the medical needs of a society of over 300 million people takes representatives that truly have "public service" in their hearts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              The call for service is a trust they honor by always doing and thinking of what is best for the people that put them office and the nation. We don't have those kinds of people anymore in our congress. So we well just have to stumble down the road, like a drunk, and some way, find our way home.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                              #24.9 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:03 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                              ewent

                                                                                                                                                                                                              silkandtired...Oh really? Ever try to get a GYN appt. within a week unless it's an emergency? You'll wait 8 weeks if their OB patients are the priority. Ever get a blood test done at one of those "network" testing labs? I have. I now have a serious problem with my arm as a result of an overtired lab tech drawing blood and hitting a nerve.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                #24.10 - Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:10 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                raymond-392453

                                                                                                                                                                                                                When Employers have to Insure their Employees, They're Cutting into their "Bottom line". Why do the "Big 3" Plants in Canada Consistently make more profits than their American cousins? The Health Care is Picked up by the Canadian Universal health system. IMO, i'm convinced a Public Option will make American Businesses MORE Competitive. The Health of everybody means More Wealth for Everybody.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Reply#25 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:47 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                robby-778896

                                                                                                                                                                                                                raymond-392453

                                                                                                                                                                                                                First off, there is no Canadian Universal system, each Province has its own system. The big3 plants are all in Ontario, and all have a payrol over $400,000, so they are all getting a health tax bill from the province that amounts to about 2% of their payroll, and the employees do pay premiums in Ontario, but they are capped at $900 per year, and based on earnings, you must make over $150,000 to pay the max.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                But you are right, it is far easier, has less paperwork, and is available to everyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                #25.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:47 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                elchiparoso

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Raymond, now that you mention wealth maybe the conservative will get it. It means more jobs, more money as a result of companys making a bigger profits, and stock prices going up. Maybe, just maybe they will get it. But I guess I will not hold my breath.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #25.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:30 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sikandtired

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the current admin needs to focus on all of those folks who are generation welfare receipients. clean that area up before you go after MY benefits. because the day this goes into effect. my job will gladly pay the fine of 6%. it's far less than paying out those premiums.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Reply#26 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:49 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gattes12

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    because the day this goes into effect. my job will gladly pay the fine of 6%.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Always remember, your job can dump the insurance right now and pay nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #26.1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:48 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dale-763548

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the ocean tide of health care reform is rising, this is just the start, it would be wise to go to a single payer, now, before it becomes a big tidal wave.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #26.2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    elchiparoso

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sikantire, what do you want the government to do about this spiritual illness. The Obama administration has made it easier to get an education beyond high school by increasing finanical aide. Let me tell you a true story as told to me by my sister who was working for a social agency call Neighbood House. She went to visit a client, who happened to be white, the reason I put the race, is because there are many that have the misconception that it is only blacks and hispanics who are on welfare. My sister told me that when she research this client's file, she found that the client's mother and grandmother had lived on welfare. This was a generational problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I assume you are more than likely against reaching out to these people early in their lives and trying to motivate them and provide them with special educational care to make sure they will appreciate education and see it as a way of getting off of welfare. It is not easy to break a generational curse, it is like it is inborn. Get my drift.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #26.3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:51 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Reply
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