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Retraining roulette: New skills, no new job

Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:44 PM EDT
business, technology, only-on-msnbc-com, unemployment, state, workers, elkhart, the-elkhart-project, retraining, elkhart-county, advanced-manufacturing-training-center, ivy-tech-orthopedic, msnbccom-mike-brunker
msnbc.com News — By Mike Brunker, msnbc.com

Travis Wagner works with a lathe at the new Ivy Tech Orthopedic and Advanced Manufacturing Training Center in Warsaw, Indiana. Wagner was laid off from the RV maker Monaco in April 2008, and started a year-long advanced manufacturing course in May of 2009.

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— ELKHART, Ind. - In a massive makeover of the U.S. work force, hundreds of thousands of laid-off Americans are undergoing federally subsidized retraining designed to provide them with the skills and education to land new jobs.

For some, it already feels like an exercise in futility.

“I’ve tried and tried (to find work) and it’s discouraging,” said Jama Eisman, 49, of Elkhart, Ind., a laid-off recreational vehicle worker and single mom who has been looking for a job — any job — since she graduated from a six-month information technology program in early August. “... A lot of places they have signs on the doors saying they’re not even accepting applications.”

While looking for work in economically battered northern Indiana is especially daunting, Eisman’s story underscores the high stakes riding on the retraining initiative for workers and for the nation.

Eisman said she fears she will lose the home she shares with her three sons — D.J., an 18-year-old high school senior, Michael, 15, and Eric, 11 — when her unemployment benefits expire on Nov. 1, unless Congress passes another extension.

“My child support pays for my house payment, and I pay for everything else,” the divorced former factory worker said. “I won’t make it.”

Many thousands of laid-off workers have found work during the recession after being trained in new occupations. But thousands of others are finding it can be difficult to hit a moving target when jobs are still shifting and vanishing.

And the complexities of the sprawling retraining program go well beyond forecasting the job market.

Fundamental questions are being raised about retraining, even as it has quietly emerged as a linchpin in the federal government’s recession-fighting strategy. Chief among them: Do retooled workers fare better in their searches or land better jobs than those who spend their time hitting the bricks and knocking on doors?

Like many other aspects of the retraining program, the answer is far from clear.

The Labor Department and other supporters say the effort is critical to help the U.S. pull out of the recession and produce a skilled work force capable of holding its own against foreign competition.

But critics say the retraining program, created by the 1998 Workforce Investment Act (WIA), is run by a tangled bureaucracy and actually makes little, if any, difference in helping laid-off workers reassemble their lives.

‘It's ... a morass’
“It’s really a morass,” said Joe DiLaura, a former spokesman for the Indiana Department of Workforce Development now with the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice in Indianapolis. “It’s not anything Indiana officials are doing. It’s the way the federal business is set up. Congress pours a boatload of money into a convoluted system of regional work force boards, which means a lot of staff and a lot of overhead. It’s well meaning, but I don’t know that it’s really getting the job done.”

Labor Department data show that 258,000 American workers have been retrained in the past two years under the WIA’s Dislocated Worker Program — the main aid program under which workers return to school to pursue new careers.

Overall, the program provided some type of service, ranging from career counseling to retraining, to 666,313 jobless workers in fiscal 2008 — a 66 percent increase over the previous year.

Funding for the Dislocated Worker Program has been on a similarly steep ascent. Nearly $3 billion was budgeted for fiscal 2009, including extra funding for retraining included in President Barack Obama’s federal stimulus package.

Tens of thousands of other jobless Americans receive retraining benefits under the Trade Adjustment Assistance program, which helps workers who lost jobs due to global trade, or National Emergency Grants designed to help workers in a hard-hit region or industry.

“Workforce Investment Act training gets dislocated workers back into the work force more quickly than their peers who do not take part in such programs,” Jane Oates, assistant secretary of labor for employment and training, said in a statement provided to msnbc.com. “This fact does not, however, prevent us from striving to continuously improve publicly funded work force programs to maximize the return on these investments.”

The department also cites statistics indicating that retrained workers on average made 104 percent of their pre-training earnings in fiscal 2007, the most recent year for which figures are available.

Study finds little benefit
But a study commissioned by the Labor Department and released without fanfare in December reached the opposite conclusion, finding that retraining does not significantly improve earning power.

Co-author Kenneth R. Troske, chairman of the Economics Department at the University of Kentucky, said the discrepancy exists because the government compares the workers’ earnings immediately prior to entering retraining — after they have lost their jobs or suffered some other employment setback — to their paychecks after completing their courses and finding work. He and his fellow researchers, on the other hand, looked at how workers in 12 states who underwent retraining fared when compared with similar jobless workers who didn’t.

Their findings were disheartening. “Those who enter training experience large earnings losses relative to those who do not in their first two years after program entry,” the study found.

Earnings of retrained workers eventually did overtake those of non-participants, but even then, “The gains from participation are, at best, very modest,” it said.

Troske said the biggest reason retrained workers lag behind is simple: “When you’re participating in the program, it’s harder to find a job than someone who isn’t. Even if you’re not being charged tuition, you’re still giving up the opportunity to do meaningful work.”

But Teresa Voors, the commissioner of Indiana’s Department of Workforce Development, said that workers are approved for retraining only after other options for getting them back to work have been explored.

“The process isn’t necessarily about getting them into retraining; it’s about helping them find the proper career path,” she said. “That could be as simple as helping them rewrite their résumé, getting them on our Web site and helping them find a job, getting them started networking to find another job or maybe enrolled in a few workshops.”

Voors speaks from considerable experience.

The WIA-funded program administered by her department has seen a huge surge in demand for training and other services, which also are provided to disadvantaged youth and adult workers. The program has grown more than sevenfold in three years, skyrocketing from 39,001 participants in fiscal 2006 to 296,477 in fiscal 2008. In fiscal 2007, the most recent year for which spending figures are available, the department spent $117 million to provide services to 101,616 workers, or about $1,150 apiece.

A significant portion of that demand springs from Elkhart County, the heart of the RV industry. With an unemployment rate of 16.7 percent — well above the national average of 9.7 percent — the county has yet to see signs of the economic recovery that many economists say is beginning to take root.

When the layoffs were at their peak late last year, local WorkOne centers were frequently scenes of chaos and frustration.

Vicki McGlinsey, 42, who worked for an RV supply company before losing her job, said it took her six full months to get approved for retraining. The process was so aggravating that, at one point, after being told to return for yet another appointment, “I sat in the living room and bawled,” she said.

After the contractor responsible for running the centers was replaced, the situation improved, said McGlinsey, who is now retraining for a career as a computer technician at the commercial Maple Training school in Goshen.

She is one of thousands of laid-off workers in Elkhart County who have settled into retraining routines, and are busily learning the ropes for a wide variety of jobs — everything from operating computerized manufacturing machinery and repairing computers to providing medical care and styling hair and applying makeup.

Among them are approximately 1,100 RV workers who entered programs under a $10.4 million National Emergency Grant from the Labor Department. Of those, 300 are pursuing associate degrees, 700 are seeking vocational certifications and more than 100 are in programs leading to a professional license, according to a breakdown provided the state.

Their chosen new careers: 250 are training in IT; 240 in health care; 220 in advanced manufacturing disciplines; 100 as commercial drivers; 85 in business or accounting; 28 in heating and air conditioning; 17 paralegals; and the remainder in niche fields.

Denise Sexton, 41, of Elkhart, is one of the many former RV workers who is pursuing a medical career, banking that surgical assistants will still be in demand when she completes the two-year certification program. 

But with her jobless benefits due to end in January, her husband working only part-time delivering RVs and their savings nearly gone, Sexton is mapping out her education like a military campaign, examining every possible option to ensure that she can finish.

“The way it looks right now, I’ll have to work a part-time job somewhere,” she said. “I’m in the process of applying for a Pell Grant … It’s either get some grant money somewhere or take a loan out.”

Sexton, who has maintained a straight A average so far, says failure is not an option.

“I’ll do whatever I have to do to get through school,” she said. “I’m not giving up my degree.”

Even if she does obtain the certification and can find a job, there are no guarantees it will be in a surgery room.

Indiana's most recent WIA report to the Labor Department indicated that almost half of the workers who completed retraining and found work did so in other fields.

And until the local economy improves, retrained workers will likely have a difficult time finding jobs no matter what new skills they have picked up, said Grant Black, an economist at Indiana University, South Bend.

Black said Elkhart County is continuing to shed jobs across virtually every employment sector, notwithstanding recent declines in its unemployment rate, which he attributes to a shrinking labor force rather than job creation. He said it's unclear whether the smaller work force is due to people leaving the area or giving up looking for work.

“I think even if you had perfectly trained people, where are they going to go?” he said.

That’s one of the questions that case workers with Indiana’s WorkOne program attempt to answer before approving retraining plans. But it’s hard to predict when specific industries will begin growing again, and how many jobs they might create, said Dwight Grieser, a Goshen businessman who sits on the Northern Indiana Workforce Board, overseeing Elkhart County and the surrounding region.

“I know that at our board meetings, that question always comes up and people always wonder, ‘What’s needed in Elkhart County? What’s needed in St. Joseph County ... if they’re willing to drive 40 miles to get a job?’” he said.

The lack of accurate forecasts can have serious consequences. Travis Wagner, 31, a laid-off RV worker from Freeman, Ind., discovered that after signing up for a one-year advanced manufacturing program — a field identified by Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels as having "a lot of great jobs waiting" in September, when he announced the grant for retraining RV workers.

Now Wagner said he’s “less and less” confident he’ll be able to find work with one of the local orthopedics manufacturers the program is designed to support. That's because former RV workers have flooded classes at the same time the companies have been announcing layoffs, he said.

But Thomas Snyder, president of Indiana’s statewide Ivy Tech Community College system, which runs the manufacturing program, said graduates will emerge with “transferable skills” that can be applied to many occupations, not just building artificial joints.

And longer term, he said, such training is critical to efforts to “re-engineer Indiana” as a manufacturing state with a highly skilled work force. “If we lose this industry, it would not be to another state,” he added ominously.

Louis Uchitelle, a New York Times labor reporter and author of the book “The Disposable American: Layoffs and Their Consequences,” scoffs at such arguments.

He says retraining ignores the decreasing demand for certain occupations — especially in manufacturing — as jobs continue to disappear overseas.

“It’s a supply-side approach,” he said. “People are told that there are good jobs out there and it’s incumbent on them to acquire those skills to land those jobs. That was never the case, even in the salad days of job creation, and it certainly isn’t the case now.”

Meanwhile, as the retraining debate continues in classrooms, boardrooms and government offices, the jobless of Elkhart County are making decisions upon which their future well-being will hang.

Some have retrained for a new job only to return to the relative security of work in the cyclical RV industry.

Among them is Adrian Jimenez, a 30-year-old RV worker from Bremen, Ind., who received certification as an operator of CNC (computer numerical controlled) machines after completing a six-month course at Ivy Tech. But with no job offers after several months and a second child on the way, he couldn’t say no when his former employer, Monaco Coach, offered him his job back on the factory floor.

"I really never got to use my training at all," he said, adding that he is instead lining up side jobs as a Spanish-English translator, just in case.

Others, like Kevin Avery of Mishwaka, are taking the cautious approach.

Avery, who lost his job making glucometers for Bayer in April, is carefully analyzing the job market before deciding where to cast his retraining lot. He has that luxury because he had a union job and will continue to receive severance payments until mid-December.

“At my age, you’ve got to find something in demand,” he said. “I’ll be 56 in January, so what can you get in a year or two that will give you another 10 years of work? Whatever you decide, it’s got to be something you can walk out of the training and into a job.”

Still others are preparing for new careers in which, assuming they find work, they will make much less than they did before.

Cindy Koehler of Elkhart, who worked as a saleswoman for an RV supplier, is now training for a career as a cosmetologist at the Vogue Beauty in College in Elkhart. According to state statistics, cosmetologists in Indiana earn a mean hourly salary of $9.97, or $2.52 an hour above the state’s minimum wage.

That’s not a big concern for Koehler, who expects to graduate in December after her 10-month training, because she expects to have increased job satisfaction.

“I’m a people person, and I really like the way it makes me feel when I make someone feel better about themselves,” she said.

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  • Public Discussion (144)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3
GoDux08

I looked into some of the WIA programs when I was laid off. The majority of them are BS business classes that cost way more then they are worth...several thousand dollars for classes that could be take at a community college for a few hundred dollars.. I think most of the benefit goes to the schools that cater to the WIA program.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:47 AM EDT
Gus-393033

I don't have the time for re-education because I have been self-employed... and the bills are piling up fast! Unemployment is not an option.

My observation though is... it doesn't matter if you are re-educated!The economy is in the dumpster. All this talk about re-tooling leads me to ask... for what? What is going to come out of thin air? Is the President going to pull something out of his derriere for us?

I certainly have been re-educated about the politics of our day for the last year. WHAT A MESS!

(I've also learned more about Elkhart County than I care too! C'mon out to San Bernardino County see what kind of s&u#f is going on!)

  • 5 votes
#1.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:38 AM EDT
GregL-671049

The biggest problem is people are resistant to moving..If you can't find work in Elkhart then move...If i was in that position i wouldn't hesitate to move.

There isn't going to be any recovery until people realize that a stimulus plan isn't going to put them to work,especially if the President is using it for political gain...He is holding off while people are suffering, to use it as political leverage for the Congressional elections next year..

The only way to get the economy moving is to get money in the hands of the people who hire...We need massive tax cuts for business...I know it won't set well with our friends on the left..It has worked in the past why not now?

    #1.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
    Where is America?-1111673

    Greg...

    The biggest problem is people are resistant to moving..If you can't find work in Elkhart then move...If i was in that position i wouldn't hesitate to move.

    I would move too... but I'm stuck in an upside down mortgage... and family is a huge consideration. If I try to move... my wife will say good-bye, have a good time, send the money... but I'm staying where the kids are. If I was single... it would be a different matter.

    There is no easy solution to this economy. And there will be no solutions coming from this administration. I agree with your assertions on massive tax cuts, and I would add cuts in the size of Government! Might want to preserve some of those welfare programs though. There are going to be loads of people needing it and un-employment benefits.

    We need CHANGE IN 2010!

    • 2 votes
    #1.3 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:47 AM EDT
    Florida_kes

    Greg...

    Care to share with us specifically where are all of these jobs are that you're claiming they exist?

    • 3 votes
    #1.4 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:47 PM EDT
    Dean-1208155

    Is the job problem in the US about new skills for workers, or do the leaders of companies need the training? This should be obvious; I am a professional and have worked for more than 30 years in the US and around the world. In the last ten years, I observed a significant deterioration in leadership amongst companies, develop the least for most, or deliver nothing for maximum profit. At the cost of the company, and depart with a small fortune.

    It's the leadership that needs retrained, in ETHICS. Would you like some examples?

    In the US, we have the most skilled workers in the world, and likewise the worst executive managers in the world.

    • 2 votes
    #1.5 - Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:24 AM EDT
    Reply
    Nan-813417

    life is like that. if we all had the inside track, we'd all be gods.

    in my opinion [like that is even worth anything, in fact i usually automatically turn my brain off, whenever someone begins a sentence with it] NO EDUCATION IS A WASTE {caps intentional here} it means i am yelling. [der]

    • 2 votes
    Reply#2 - Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:52 AM EDT
    flyfishva

    This push for education or re-education will turn out to be just like the home owner program that put everyone into realizing their own American dream. As one of America's unemployed-I find myself being pushed to go back to school by my States DOL. I guess my 2 college degree's aren't enough and I refuse to take on that debt right now.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#3 - Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:04 PM EDT
    Gus-393033

    In our neck of the woods it is hard just to get into the college for a "knitting Obama blankets" class! Lines around the block and a fall schedule that was cancelled due to lack of funds.

    I'm going to try the "flying Obama face kites for propoganda" class next summer. Hope I can get in!

    (Honey....has the state returned my phone call about that extra large jar of free county peanut butter and crackers offer? What about that "paint Obama image on your car door and make money offer?)

    • 2 votes
    #3.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:57 AM EDT
    Where is America?-1111673

    There is no one solution. I think that we are in a no win situation politically as far as the economy is concerned. Saw a poll yesterday of what people really have on their minds as the most important issue facing the American public. By far and away it was the economy and jobs. Yet, we do not hear anything of substance from our leaders about this problem. Instead, we hear about Health Reform, Acorn, and Foreign Relations. It's as though they are sitting around hoping for good news to come out of nowhere when the new reports come in.

    I have asked newsviners to tell me where they believe the new entreprenurial spirit is. I have asked everyone I know to tell me where the new jobs are and what sector is going to be the new growing sector ... aside from the ever growing jobless sector. I have watched the so-called economic gurus on TV. There have been no answers. There have been no indicators. I have job searched an endless amount of dead end job leads. NOTHING! Are we in a depression or a recession?

    The new "old age" in the job market has slid to anyone over 40. Yes, there are jobs that can be had at $8.00 per hour, if you are willing to wait in lines that wrap around the block. Then you are lucky to get a 20 hour per week work schedule. No amount of education can overcome a famine in the workplace that we are witnessing. Even $8.00 per hour jobs... three of them totalling 60 hours per week (x 2 if there are two of you working from the household) cannot meet the bills of a family that is struggling to make ends meet. (...and the administrations response is Heath Care... mandatory!)

    We might as well face the facts. Being optimistic about the future is not going to pull us through this catastrophe unless we begin to understand that the new norm is far below what many of us anticipated. If you are making good money right now... I hope you are ready to share it with your family and neighbors in the future, because that is where it is headed. In many areas it has already arrived. For those who are making a good living... you are in danger of a massive tax increase to be forced to help your neighbor. Then much of that money will go to administrate the dividing of the funds collected.

    We might want to start harvesting those small smelt fish in Californis for people food, since we think it's okay to save the environment for them. Forget that 40,000 people are out of work and that the growing fields are turning into a dust bowl. We can clone embryos but we cannot save the smelt! Maybe a college course will help to alleviate that problem.

    Our countries priorities are all messed-up! We worry about other countries and people and let our country go to hell! The fact is... they will follow right along after us.

    And our enemies abroad are wringing their hands! "Look, the powerful USA is finally folding. The people are disheartened and now is the time to move in and land some final punches!" Even our allies seem to be distancing themselves. It might be contagious. They are right.

    Is it time to write an epitaph for the good old USA? I hope not.

    We have made a grave misstake by electing according to our bitternesses. The new politician has never seen what we are experiencing, and he/she doesn't know how to cope with it. The answers rendered are but smoke in our eyes as to what the real problem is.

    We have fallen away from our love of country. The new global awareness has blinded our eyes. It has been said in the past that a strong America makes for a stronger world. Let's scrap all the building material that we have been working with and get back to the foundation. Without a pride in it we cannot rebuild. Put the USA first in all of the proposals coming from of Government. Let's get back to self-sustaining. We've taken the wrong fork in the road.

    • 3 votes
    #3.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:10 PM EDT
    checkerbattery

    The problem with re-education, and the problem with globalization and free trade in general, is that as bad as it sounds not everyone is cut out to be a mid-level business manager or rocket engineer. Any diverse economy and society needs blue collar jobs like logging and manufacturing and whatnot in order to be successful. The Big Lie when we started on this globalization track is that Americans would just be retrained and do all these high paying white collar jobs and I'm sorry but there's a huge chunk of the population that will never be successful in a paper pushing cubicle job no matter how many college classes they take. It just doesn't work that way.

    The end result is that many these displaced workers end up as lifers at Walmart or simply living on welfare. That's why the middle class is slowly disappearing and until we get these blue collar jobs back it's just going to get worse.

    • 4 votes
    #3.3 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:40 PM EDT
    Reply
    Nan-813417

    Very good point about the debt incurred.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#4 - Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:18 PM EDT
    Barney Lerten

    Seems to me it (college, retraining) are ways to 'keep busy' (and have $ coming in) while looking for work.

    Make-busy programs, because surely we can't have a Depression-era govt.-work program, that's... SOCIALISM.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#5 - Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:02 AM EDT
    wtfwwus

    Those programs were ruled unconstitutional, and not because of socialism, but because they were more like forced labor. People had litttle choice in what they did, or how much they got paid. No work, no aid.

    But you make a good point. Perhaps our government should start to do something to help the people in need. They outnumber the people without insurance ten fold, and the immeadiate needs are much greater.

      #5.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:11 AM EDT
      sandyshores

      This is the what happens when you vote for the democrats. This time however they are not only stunting growth with the treat of taxes they are also forcing alot of companies overseas that cannot meet or do not want to worry about the results of cap and trade on their product. I am sure there will be many more jobs lost if these things and when they go into effect. If you want jobs stop voting for the economy crushing democrats.

        #5.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:04 AM EDT
        Monmichka

        I believe the article said these programs were started two years ago when, if memory serves me correctly, Bush was in office and a lot of Repubs were in Congress. Can't blame the people currently in office for something that happened before they got there, can you? I mean you can, but is that really fair? The stimulus packages started with Bush, too, you know.

        • 3 votes
        #5.3 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:39 AM EDT
        wtfwwus

        A) I was referring to the depression-era programs that Barney appeared to be referring to. That is the depression era of the 20-30's.

        B) I can also blame this administration. The Bush-era program sent money for infrasctructure, and other projects that served the people. The Obama stimulus package sent all the money to the financial sector, no help to the people. Didn't stop the economy from sliding downwards, didn't create jobs, didn't stop foreclosures. It did provide the cash for those big bonuses though.

          #5.4 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:47 AM EDT
          Gus-393033

          What about all those scam jobs on the internet that this economy has created? I think that most of them have popped-up under this administration. So... I guess there is a new industry that is booming... the scam Industry.

          Must have gotten there cue from the top!

          (Now...that's job growth!)

          • 1 vote
          #5.5 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:10 AM EDT
          Robert-413014

          As long as Congress lets companies abuse the H1B program, there will never be enough entry level IT jobs.

          • 4 votes
          #5.6 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:26 AM EDT
          EGlide

          1. It was Unca Ronnie, George 1st and the Shrub that were giving tax breaks to companies, since the 1980's, to move factories that had union workers overseas in an effort to destroy unions.

          2. This economy was started in 2001 and neither the Shrub nor any of the other Republicans did anything about it. Give big tax cuts to the wealthy and everything will be okay. Yeah, right.

          3. H1Bs! Corporations are laying off American workers and bringing in H1Bs because they will work for less. Corporations say they need the best and the brightest to compete. If these are the best anf brightest, why are they paying them so much less? If they are the best and the brightest, I believe the corporations should prove it by agreeing to a law change stating that all H1B worker should be paid 25% more than an American worker doing the same job. I would be willing to bet that if pay was increased for these foreign workers, corporations would find out American workers are kind of bright, too.

          • 4 votes
          #5.7 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:30 AM EDT
          GregL-671049

          EGlide,

          Like all one sided lefties you fail to mention Clinton campaigned and wooed the unions with the promise of not signing the NAFTA treaty...Well we all know how that worked out,he couldn't wait to sign it into law,then to add insult to injury they backed him again...The pro labor Democrats who voted for NAFTA sold America down the drain..Obama thinks he can spend us out of this recession,it won't work...The money is being spent for payback...How many laid off CPA's do you know that are running a Backhoe today? I would guess none...You people on the left are so blinded by Obama's aura,you can't see what's really happening..

          How can you blame the companies for improving their bottom line? It's the government who is to blame...

            #5.8 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
            checkerbattery

            George Bush Senior was responsible for NAFTA in this country although Clinton signed it:

            In the U.S., Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton. Prior to sending it to the House of Representatives, Clinton introduced clauses intended to protect American workers and allay the concerns of many House members.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nafta

            And while the government was paid to go along with it, it was largely the brainchild of Big Business who saw this as a way to pump up their bottom lines at the expense of the American worker. You can blame government for being the inept, corrupt officials they are, but NAFTA and globalization and free trade exists because Big Business wants it to. This is just another great example of how most people are just stupid enough to believe whatever their leaders tell them.

            • 1 vote
            #5.9 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:51 PM EDT
            wtfwwus

            If clinton signed it he is responsible.

              #5.10 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:23 PM EDT
              Florida_kes

              When will you pin heads get it that both sides are in it for themselves? (i.e. the wealthy)

              • 2 votes
              #5.11 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:52 PM EDT
              Reply
              wtfwwus

              Perhaps if we focus on the economy instead of health care, things could improve. Since the Stimulus Debt package was passed, it seems nothing is being done to work the economy and create jobs. I guess special interests come before the people. Someone wants this bill so screw everyone and everything else.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#6 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:09 AM EDT
              sandyshores

              Haven't they done enough damage for you yet?

                #6.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:04 AM EDT
                wtfwwus

                You may have a point. We're screwed either way I guess. :(

                  #6.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:51 AM EDT
                  popeyethesailorDeleted
                  wtfwwus

                  Popeye, I think it's time to eat more spinach, your brain is getting weak.

                  Your short sighted one sided attacks are humurous, but destructive. As long as you keep thinking that it's all the Republicans fault, and you continue to think the Dems are doing anything constructive, you'll keep voting for them, and we keep the cycle going. You see they've both sold us out. Pelosi has taken millions from the pharas to pass this bill, because they're going to make A LOT of money from it. Clinton did NAFTA, which sent American jobs out of country, even though he said he wouldn't. And the second stimulus debt bill, which was all Obama and Dems, gave HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars to the financial sector WITHOUT ANY OVERSIGHT. Most of it will be a gift. Some will come back, but reports indicate most will not. But they did pay themselves huge bonuses. So yeah, I guess your Dems have done just the same job at screwing us.

                  Your name calling and "clever" twists are just proof that you are just hate filled, and have no facts to use. Also, clicking your own approval doesn't count :)

                    #6.4 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:47 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    The Beev

                    It's not rocket science folks. You have an anti free-enterprise, anti-capitalism mentality in the White House. You can pour all the monry in the world "stimulus" into this paper-tiger economy and you're NOT gonna see the employment improve. Higher taxes, even the hint of cap&trade, stuff like what's going down in California where a 2 inch "smelt" has shut down farming for tens of thousands, no drilling, no mining of coal and shale, no nuclear power plants....what the heck is going back to school good for when the only industry that looks solid is burger-flipping? Yup...you got what you asked for electing all these socialists into office.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#7 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:13 AM EDT
                    joe2008-380715

                    This economy isn't going to turn around until NAFTA is repealed and all those manufacturing jobs return to the U.S.

                    To have a balanced economy, you MUST have a solid manufacturing core. We exported ours. Politicians - Republicans AND Democrats are responsible. Their corporate political contributors bought and paid them through campaign contributions. Why else would they have stabbed their country in the back if not for the money?

                    That's why campaign finance reform is so necessary. It allows the little guy to get his country back from the large corporations. Unless you're rich, the average Chinaman has more influence over your politicians than you do. That amounts to taxation without representation.

                    It boils down to this: If taxation without representation was grounds for a revolution once - it still is.

                    • 6 votes
                    Reply#8 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:38 AM EDT
                    EGlide

                    Campaign Finance Reform is impossible as long as corporations retain personhood. Corporations are not, have never been and should never be, considered people. The Supreme Court never made that distinction. It was a court clerk that wrote it into a SC decision and it's been that way ever since. Why do you think corporations have the right to lie?

                    • 3 votes
                    #8.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:38 AM EDT
                    Reply
                    Pumpuiyai

                    Interesting we are training many of them in IT. Most IT jobs went to India and China years ago. I have a BS in Computer Science (as well as 30 years experience and an MBA) and I haven't found work (any) in the field for 10 years. I finally had to settle for teaching English in SE Asia at less than minimum wage. Good news is it's extremely cheap to live here.

                    • 5 votes
                    Reply#9 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:45 AM EDT
                    checkerbattery

                    That's what I was thinking when I read this:

                    “I’ve tried and tried (to find work) and it’s discouraging,” said Jama Eisman, 49, of Elkhart, Ind., a laid-off recreational vehicle worker and single mom who has been looking for a job — any job — since she graduated from a six-month information technology program in early August.

                    And we really think this 50 year old laid-off recreational vehicle worker with 6 months of training is going to fare any better than the thousands upon thousands of IT workers who already lost their job to China and India?

                    • 2 votes
                    #9.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:56 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    The Beev

                    Right on Joe. I wonder how much worse it needs to get before people realize they have nothing left to lose and fight for what they hold dear. OR, have we gotten so fat and lazy, so spineless, that we all just cower in our homes while gub'ment rapes us without the decency to at least use some K-Y. I'm ready for round two in Washington. Only this time we shut down Washington Mon thru Friday with 5-10 million teed-off folks.

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#10 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:46 AM EDT
                    checkerbattery

                    The problem is there are way too many people that think this is a Democrat problem and that if they just elect another career Repulican things will be OK. Or vice versa. The first step is admitting that our two party political system has a problem. Only then can we start down the road to recovery.

                    • 3 votes
                    #10.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:59 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    Nan-813417

                    I would like to say something more on the subject of education. Not everyone looks at it as a means to get a job. Learning is fun. Wish I could afford to go back. I loved school.

                    Unfortunately, it is an incredible luxury. A university education can take a decade or more to pay back. Incurring debt, when one has no job in a community where jobs are being lost, may not be the option for most. I guess one has to ask themselves the question, how bad do I want it? Grants really fell for students in the Bush years. Check the facts. Now the money just isn't there to invest in our young people.

                    My parents were part of the Greatest Generation. That generation got their educations, if they were the lucky few, by working and raising kids sometimes and going to school. That had to be really rough for those who had the capacity to really want to learn things in a college or university setting, but to know that that would ultimately be denied them due to circumstances. It's a shame. My dad really valued education. He wanted his kids to be able to have what he couldn't have. He was lucky to have graduated from HS. My mom really regreted that she was denied that, she had to work to support her large family. Life's like that. Priorities. Good for her, she was able to go back years later and finish HS. Yay, mom. But feel bad for dad. He had enormous talent, but lacked the education to rise as he could have. He did great though. Raised four kids, had a home, and a community that respected him. Very talented man.

                    Wouldn't it be neat if some of the people that are unemployed could get together and maybe share skills with people that want to learn those skills, so they could move into jobs, or even create jobs? Have meaningful work that contributes to the community as well, and provide the means to have things like housing.

                    I think we are going to have to come up with some imaginative solutions instead of blaming this or that. We're in this. We're in this together. Have skills, will share. Just have no job.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#11 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:47 AM EDT
                    Lee-453088

                    Nan - I have a very dear friend who's husband became critically ill and lost his job. Five years later, he is still suffering from a number of chronic diseases and she is wondering how to better her position. After looking into going back to school, she realized that the amount of loans she'd have to pay back would be more than her new earnings. She's in her 50's and couldn't see it working for her. I feel really bad that she was unable to go back to school.

                    But for some, the reality is that food, housing, and day-to-day expenses have to get paid and loans have to be paid back. That's the sad, true fact. I think if you could get grants, it might be better, but that was not her experience.

                    I do like your idea of "it takes a village to make a workforce.' It's actually a fresh idea from the norm. I wonder, though, with so many in dire straits right now (including companies that are laying off or just getting by) if it would work?

                    • 2 votes
                    #11.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:45 AM EDT
                    lk in la

                    And yet somehow these days the government can afford to pay grants (not loans) to university graduate science-majors from families with incomes $150,000+ for some of the most useless research?!?!

                      #11.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:36 PM EDT
                      Nan-813417

                      only for those that have the chops. they worked hard for the privilege. i don't know the circumstances, and can only guess. it is based on merit.

                        #11.3 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:38 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        GenoTenn

                        Simply put, there are not enough jobs (and never will be with a global economy) to sustain 300 million people in this country. The law of diminishing returns applies here. The U.S. as being the land of opportunity is no longer. Unemployment rates of 10% or higher will now be the norm. Retraining is a waste of money, redirect those funds to infrastructure development and maintenance.

                        • 2 votes
                        Reply#12 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:28 AM EDT
                        lk in la

                        The reply to-redirecting funds to infrastructure development and maintenance-will probably be that there is no budget for this

                          #12.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:42 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          Rider-1356594

                          We were promised "Green Jobs" here in Montana as well.

                          Here is an example from the local newspaper:

                          http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/image_ad35aaaa-a015-11de-8063-001cc4c002e0.html

                          "Jose Moreno from Mexico holds rope while co-worker for a Houston based company repairs lightening damage wind turbine blade".

                          Seems that wind turbine blades are lightening magnets and nothing like having an out of state firm with foreign workers do the job.

                          • 1 vote
                          Reply#13 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:51 AM EDT
                          sandyshores

                          government jobs are paid for by the tax payers the democrats work hard to crush out of the economy. Who is going to pay for all of the democratic idiotic dream list when the price of everything they want will skyrocket costs for the people of the country it is easier for taxpayers to leave or close shop then to face higher taxes and energy costs. Our revenues are already down 35%. How much further in the trash must the democratic stupidity drive this nation?

                          • 1 vote
                          #13.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:15 AM EDT
                          Reply
                          Rider-1356594

                          Sorry -- here is the full article:

                          http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_7e057340-a016-11de-b7b4-001cc4c002e0.html

                            Reply#14 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:03 AM EDT
                            lsmith2020

                            I don't care what the news folks tell you or the Washington Elites including our man Obama say. This economy will not turn around unless we have a solid manufacturing base which we don't. The years of outsourcing jobs has crippled our ability keep millions of people employed building televisions, computers, tents, clothing, phones, utincels, etc..You get the point. All the crap we buy at Bed Bath and Beyond, Best Buy, etc at one time Americans built or were very capable of building with ease which stimulated the economy because money was being circulated. Then sadly greed snuck in and little by little we were dooped into thinking that outsourcing was a good thing, that it fostered "Ingenuity" or "Entrepreneurship" What we have are millions of people that cannot find work in a stable industry and stick with it for thirty years. When people decided not to attend college they could learn a trade and support a family. Granted, there will always be those who will rise above the rest and start thier own business but the reality is that not everyone is cut out for that. Being a college graduate and business owner myself, I speak from experience.

                            • 5 votes
                            Reply#15 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:08 AM EDT
                            sandyshores

                            Whats in it or them to stay when taxes in ireland are 11%? The democratic party is the anti economy party.

                              #15.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:17 AM EDT
                              Reply
                              Chuck-435803

                              Retraining is a joke as far as I'm concerened. A couple of years ago I was laid off and decided to retrain as a QA specialist. The county paid for the program and the training went over several months. They said they would also help you to get placed in a job. However they failed to tell that all they did was post listings and you had to apply. As well, all the job listings require 2-3years or more experience! So what was the blippen point? I looked for months and didn't find a darn thing. Luckily my old employer called and hired me back. But I think this shows the missing element is getting trained in an area where jobs are readily available and companies are willing to take trainees. Basically all those months of training were a wast of taxpayers money and my time. I'll never do it again.

                              • 2 votes
                              Reply#16 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:12 AM EDT
                              Jim-80129

                              That's been my point all along. I'm already over 50, which has already made getting any response to applications nearly impossible. (You won't convince me that age discrimination is not rampant.) Now the geniuses in government think that if I spend at least a couple of years to get a degree in another field (because almost all job listings require a degree for almost any job), I will be able to go out and find an "entry level" position in that field competing against hundreds of other younger applicants with many years of experience?

                              So my options seem to be that I can go out and spend thousands of dollars and years going back to school for retraining in a career with no realistic chance of being hired, or I can keep looking for the same non-existent job opportunities (at my age) and save the thousands of dollars to pay bills.

                              My wife still thinks that I'm being negative and giving up. My opinion is that it's a realistic analysis of the current and future job market for someone my age.

                              • 1 vote
                              #16.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:49 PM EDT
                              oldnewgrad,RN

                              I wasted precious resources going to nursing school only to find blatant age discrimination. The military would not even take me to go to Iraq although they were wooing younger new grads. I was told not to take it personally because they have found statistically that people over 45 have higher medical costs. The hospital industry don't want to have higher benefit costs either. If universal health care passed then this would become an idea of the past and possibly reduce age discrimination.

                              i tried to get into a nursing refresher course that was linked to a hospital for future hire. I was told the philanthropists who set up the program wanted foreign born nurses and blown off. There is abuse of the H1b visa program as there are plenty of unemployed nurses already here. A major hospital in my area gets 200 unsolicited resumes a day.

                              • 2 votes
                              #16.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:08 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              jetcam

                              There will be no IT jobs, customer service jobs, or other related jobs available until someone decides that having the jobs in the USA is a better idea than having the jobs in India and Mexico. As long as outsourcing is a tax benefit to American corporations, we, as a nation, will continue to lose jobs to overseas companies.  This country needs American jobs in the USA, not on some foreign soil to save $.35 an hour on labor costs.  The morass of jobs lost in this country is a sign of the economy being flushed down the toilet by corporations that are now primarily owned by non-American companies and/or stockholders.

                              An example: Arizona Public Service, APS, is seeking another massive rate increase to save its credit rating. They are still bringing in money hand over fist, but they want yet more money so they can save their credit rating. One way they are considering lowering their costs is to outsource the jobs overseas. Don't you wish you could save your credit rating, now that these bailed out banks have received billions of our tax dollars? More laid off workers in Arizona so Arizona Public Service can continue to rake in tons of money. What do you think is going to happen to the credit ratings of all of those laid off workers?

                              No more rate increases for banks, utilities, and credit cards until such time that American jobs are back on American soil. When our unemployment rate is at 0% and there are more jobs then people to fill them, then a company can outsource only as a last resort.

                              • 2 votes
                              Reply#17 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:16 AM EDT
                              sandyshores

                              I would vote for you. And no more overly expencive idiotic ideas this country can not afford. Time to take back a once great nation.

                                #17.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:23 AM EDT
                                Lee-453088

                                jetcam - while I don't disagree with your key points, the reality is that the outsourcing phenomenon has been going on for longer than I think people realize. I worked for a major retailer 10 years ago that closed up shop after 75 years in the area to outsource. Back then, the company was considered behind the times.

                                The jobs have LONG been gone. Of course, nobody was complaining when the greed of the American people took over and everyone was spending money we didn't have. Now we all have to pay for it.

                                  #17.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:49 AM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  Dean-512440

                                  I'm very disapointed that the so called "stimulas" hasn't created more jobs yet. Yet I can't blame the entire situation on the Obama administration (They aren't the cause, they've just made things worse). Has any one ever noticed that we don't seem to make things in this country anymore?

                                    Reply#18 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:19 AM EDT
                                    sandyshores

                                    They are the cause when ever they say the previous administration they mean themselves they were the majority for the last two years. Who is going to pay for thes so called government jobs our children and our grandchildren? Why? Because they will have no needs but to be the slaves of the worst administration this country has seen in modern history?

                                    Everytime the democratic party gets an idea a million more jobs are lost in the USA.

                                    We dont make things in this country because our taxes are to high as it is now the idiots in office want to increase them and make industry more expencive with crap and trador.

                                      #18.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:33 AM EDT
                                      Monmichka

                                      That's right, the Republicans are absolute saints and have nothing to do with this mess at all.

                                      Have you conveniently forgotten the past eight years?

                                      • 3 votes
                                      #18.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:42 AM EDT
                                      Lee-453088

                                      How were new jobs going to be created? There was no plan - just lots of promises. And with companies going bust left and right, I'm not sure why that promise was even made.

                                        #18.3 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:50 AM EDT
                                        sandyshores

                                        Lets review the last eight years. The democrats lied about fannie mae and freddie mac and melted down the economy.

                                        The democrats were the majority in 2002 and voted for war. We are still at war!

                                        The democrats are in office now and are further trashing the economy.

                                        The democrats answer to every problem is spend money we do not have and leave that snot on the future generations who will have no needs and can be our slaves.

                                        Someone has to pay for government jobs that is the tax payer the democrats are taxing us out of jobs and cap and trading our jobs out of the country.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #18.4 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:26 AM EDT
                                        popeyethesailorDeleted
                                        GregL-671049

                                        popeyethesailor

                                        I would be willing to bet more than 75% of the people laid off today had jobs under Bush...

                                        If you weren't so blinded by Obama's aura you would do a bit of research and find that the economy was robust under Bush,until the housing bubble burst in 2007...

                                        So before you put down anyone and say they are full of crap,get an education....

                                          #18.6 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:16 AM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          sandyshores

                                          If you want jobs vote for change in 2010 and again in 2012.

                                            Reply#19 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:19 AM EDT
                                            Lee-453088

                                            What kind of change? (And let's remember that this downward spiral began LONG before Obama came into office.)

                                            And why is it everyone blames the government all the time? Let's take some responsibility people. Not a single one of you posting took out a loan for more than you could afford or bought a little bit nicer car than you could afford? We're ALL guilty of this mess that we've ALL created.

                                            We're just pissed the government isn't bailing us out as quickly as we want our mom and dad have.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #19.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:50 AM EDT
                                            sandyshores

                                            But not long before the democrats started destroying us. You want jobs vote this mess out.

                                              #19.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:28 AM EDT
                                              popeyethesailorDeleted
                                              sandyshores

                                              So your answer is grow government and tax future generations and chase whatever we have left out of the country with all the pinky and the brain overly expencive ideas of the democrats like crap and trador our country out of jobs tax them to mexico and health care the most expencive failure in the world.

                                                #19.4 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:45 AM EDT
                                                Lee-453088

                                                Outsourcing has been going on for at least 15 years. I worked for a VERY large manufacturing company that closed its factory after 75 years more than TEN YEARS AGO. We were the last in the area to have done that - and considered behind the times even then.

                                                Outsourcing has been going on no matter what political party was in control. Everyone needs to educate themselves before they go blaming one party or another.

                                                Nobody complained about outsourcing and now it's in full swing, everyone. It's NOT a new phenomenon. Now everyone cares when no one has a job. It would have been smarter to complain about this 15 years ago when the movement began.

                                                What do we do now about it? I don't know. But it's overly simplistic to say "bring back the outsourced jobs." They're gone.

                                                Why don't we focus now on how to make a "new" America with a different approach? Blaming without cause does no good. We have to be realistic about how this country is going to proceed.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #19.5 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
                                                lk in la

                                                Lee-453088 What about in other countries? Do those citizens take out loans for alittle more than they can afford? Do those citizens buy little bit nicer cars than they can afford? I wonder why.

                                                  #19.6 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:04 PM EDT
                                                  Lee-453088

                                                  I have no idea what people in other countries do. What's your point? I'm missing it.

                                                    #19.7 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:23 PM EDT
                                                    Reply
                                                    tab-0608

                                                    Citizens of the USA.

                                                    Each of you must decide if you are going to continue to lose your jobs to other countries. For example, students, you can decide not to take a class that is taught by someone who is not a US Citizen. Retailers, you can decide not to sell foreign made goods. And US consumers of oil, you can cut back 50 percent if you really want to. And, consumers, you do not have to buy those products made outside the US. Many that we do not need anyway. Especially when our economy is hurting and failing as it is.

                                                    Our government is selling us out each day as they make global deals and allow global deals to be made by the large companies so they can deposit their money off-shore and not pay taxes on them. Off-shore investments do not create US jobs, yet, our government continues to invest in the off-shore itself. Cash for clunkers being just a small example. And, the money to support that is coming from your pockets, taxpayers.

                                                    So, if you want your country to prosper, then you must be willing to sacrifice and support only the US economy, not the rest of the world. So, quit sending your money to Africa to feed the poor, when we have starving poor right here in our own country. And, quit buying all those electronics that are made outside the US. And quit buying those new houses that are made of products purchased from outside the US. Buy the older homes that are made of quality from products that were made here in the US if you really want a home, because newer does not necessarily mean better.

                                                    We all know what needs to be done, but few of us are willing to actually do what it takes to get us back to smooth running in this country. The politicians sure don't, because all they do is keep throwing good money after bad and so we just stay in the spiral losing cycle.

                                                    So, good people of the USA, it is up to each of us to gather the strength to shut down this vicious cycle of waste. Each of us must promise to cut driving by 20 percent. Each of us must stop purchasing foreign made goods just because we have the money. And, we must learn again to take care of our neighbors as they take care of us.

                                                    So, if you want a new car. Insist that it is made here in the USA of all USA parts. And when you want to have some fun at school, do not buy a new foreign made projector, hire the unemployed handyman to create scenes so you can have plays for the kids to enjoy. And, skip the purchase of foreign made toys by crafting your own presents for Christmas.

                                                    Bottom line is, CONSUMERS, if you want to make a difference you can..... DO YOU?

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    Reply#20 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:32 AM EDT
                                                    Lee-453088

                                                    tab - I agree with alot of your points. However, the outsourcing in this country is being talked about as if it's a new phenomenon. We're actually a country that has been outsourcing for the better part of 20 YEARS!! Nobody wanted to worry about it when the going was good and the money was free. Now, we're all suffering for the greed of the American people and just want to blame the government.

                                                    I think you make good points. But, I think a better, more important point is to advise consumers to learn from this financial disaster and STOP spending money you do not have. So, don't buy a car at all if you can't afford it. Don't purchase goods that you can't afford. (I know a guy who, 2 years ago, got a mortgage for $700,000 for a house and HAD NO JOB. I know another person who bought a small business and spent all the cash available on himself. The company was in business for 25 years and now is barely limping along with a skeleton crew. My real estate agent told us he's seen so many people who bought houses that were "one paycheck or divorce away" from bankruptcy. I could go on an on.)

                                                    There seems to be a real grassroots idea being posted for "it takes a village" to fix our country. I agree with that. But, while others around me were buying 2nd homes they couldn't afford and luxury cars they had no right to own, my husband and I saved, scrimped, and didn't "keep up with the Joneses."

                                                    So, when we suffered a job loss this summer, we had savings to live off of. So, forgive me if I sound completely rude, but I'm not any more apt to help out those who got themselves into this mess than I am to sanction all the government spending. To me, it's really a horse apiece.

                                                    I pray and hope that no child or family suffers due to the financial crisis in this country. But, how can people help themselves when they are driven by greed?

                                                    Everyone is so quick to judge the government, to blame outsourcing, to blame foreign manufacturing. But, we Americans all played a role here. It's not the unseen enemy that is to blame. Every bank that gave out free money, every citizen who took free money, and greed also played a HUGE part in our financial downturn.

                                                      #20.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:04 AM EDT
                                                      skipastar

                                                      We too saved and therefore were in a much better position than most when my husband 's airline went under. I look at it this way we were blessed because we were able to save. Most household's output has exceeded their income for a very long time making saving an impossibility.(Some had no choice they did not make enough money to begin with to cover basic needs not all spent foolishly albeit some did. I agree the the retraining program is a joke, when there are no jobs, nor do I see jobs magically occuring here in the U.S. for a very long time. We are entering a new era, whether we like it or not. I have even read nursing and other health fields such as dental hygienists, which everybody was touting as sure things are saturated. Its weird I don't worry about me, I have had a good life but my two college students I do indeed worry for. anybody know the going price of silver?

                                                        #20.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:22 AM EDT
                                                        Lee-453088

                                                        skipastar, while I agree it was a blessing that my husband and I made enough money to save, I also know that there were choices we made that helped us save. We could have bought fancy cars and gone on expensive vacations. But instead of purchasing designer clothes and shoes, we put money away for a rainy day. We were HOPING that money would be for expensive vacations someday, but were grateful to have the money to live off of.

                                                        Yes, there are those who have, since the dawn of time, lived hand to mouth. But, for middle and upper class Americans, there were choices in how they spent (and borrowed) money.

                                                        This economy's downturn did not happen in a vacume with all of us poor, unknowning Americans in the dark.

                                                          #20.3 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:29 AM EDT
                                                          Reply
                                                          RainyDayMagazine

                                                          Everybody would love a quick fix, but that is not realistic. A new career takes years to establish and a job at the end of the training is never guaranteed.

                                                          Government programs are broad solutions which can only be evaluated at a high level. There will ALWAYS be the heartbreaking cases when examined on an individual basis.

                                                          We can all help our friends and neighbors at a local level, but it is a "bridge" measure. The only real solution is "time." It may not be great news for a specific individual, but it is a realistic assessment.

                                                          However, there are things we can do to help each other. Being kinder to each other is a good start. We would like to re-coin a popular phase to the following:

                                                          "Help locally, recover globally".

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          Reply#21 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:16 AM EDT
                                                          Lee-453088

                                                          RainyDayMagazine - what's interesting is that everyone wants a quick fix for a problem that has been years in the making and that we are all partially responsible for. We can all be kinder. But, taking responsibility for the mistakes we made is also important. How can you recover from a problem you don't think was your fault at all?

                                                          However, I think the idea of "being kind" can be taken one step further. Volunteer in your community if you can. There is such a need to help the elderly and the children, a population that needs us now more than ever. And, the type of skills you can learn can really be as important as the things you can learn in retraining. It does look good on a resume that you volunteered for Meals on Wheels.

                                                          People might not know how to help. Get your local free paper or call a nonprofit and ask. Give your old clothes/glasses/anything you don't use anymore to charity.

                                                          We have to teach our children to "pay it forward" now.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #21.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:39 AM EDT
                                                          Reply
                                                          CJ-768189

                                                          Until people understand the difference between being educated versus being trained, this problem will continue. Most of these laid off factory workers are being trained for a different type of manufacturing work. The problem is that it's still manufacturing and there are only going to be so many of these jobs. The economy needs to diversify, and that means an educated, not just "trained" workforce. Being educated also means more options for the individual, including the option to create ones own work. By developing a broad skills set, one is able to market these to any number of "buyers" globally. People need to broaden their view of what is possible instead of being content to be "trained" in a narrow field that's going to keep them local. If you choose the latter, you do so at your own economic peril.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          Reply#22 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:16 AM EDT
                                                          Lee-453088

                                                          Transferable skills are more important now than ever. We've been told that education is the most important thing, but that may not be the case. After all, I can count on both hands how many friends I have with Master's degrees and PhD that can't get jobs because they have no experience. I know people who have trained for a certain job only to find work in an entirely different field.

                                                          That's probably very confusing, but the point I'm trying to make is that you have to personally decide what it is you want and then try to fulfill those needs. Education is not for everyone. Training is also not for everyone. But, there are probably some value to both.

                                                          But, being a people person, knowing how to type 50 or more words a minute, having a second language - anything that will give you a knee up on the competition will help.

                                                          Think of the broader picture.

                                                            #22.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:45 AM EDT
                                                            Reply
                                                            DrMan

                                                            Unfortunately, no president, congressman, or senator can solve this problem. Automation and a dwindling manufacturing base have resulted in far fewer workers needed; that's not going to change. I saw one economist say that even if this economy started generating 200K jobs a month (not likely anytime soon) it would still take over 5 years to get us back to where we were before this recession started. For many people, there will be no option. They will either have to move in with relatives or friends, or become wards of the state. There is no magic potion folks; I'm afraid this situation will be with us for years to come. Unfortunately, we'll soon be so far in debt that even the government won't be able to help. I wonder if all these nations we've given billions (trillions?) to over the decades will help us out?

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            Reply#23 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:21 AM EDT
                                                            noobamaosamaever

                                                            Retrain workers, what a joke! I grew up in Michigan in the 70's and the economy is like it is now. They wanted me to take classes and learn how to build furniture. Lets see, the economy in the toilet and people are buying furniture??? LOL Things will not get better, maybe never since the gov't has been forcing manufacturing out of this country for 40+ years. Right liberals, higher taxes and "big business is bad". How about trying lower taxes and give incentives for big and small business to prosper. Liberals have screwed our country up by using large and small businesses as cash cows for their stupid programs.(ACORN, etc.) Also if by some miracle things do come back, KEEP THE MAFIA UNIONS AWAY FROM OUR COMPANIES!!!!!!

                                                              Reply#24 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:29 AM EDT
                                                              popeyethesailorDeleted
                                                              Lee-453088

                                                              I wish that cities that are floundering would pull themselves up by the bootstrings and make changes that will help the future of the city and state. Philadelphia is a great model for change. They were the stell industry forever. Then, that industry went belly up. The city has changed itself into a "new" model and is now known for it's business. I'm sure it's suffering like any other city in this country, but they made a choice for change and made the change. It helped. I don't know why it's not obvious to make a change.

                                                              If something's not working, then a change should be made. If what you're doing isn't working, doesn't it makes sense to make a change? And if it costs money, will it be more worth it to have a foundation that will help people that to continue to spend lavish amounts of band-aids on a wound that is not healing?

                                                                #24.2 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:49 AM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                popeyethesailorDeleted
                                                                Red To Fire

                                                                Just what we needed: another discouraging story, courtesy of MSNBC.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                Reply#26 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:31 AM EDT
                                                                Nan-813417

                                                                the situation is reality. if you didn't want to, you didn't have to read it.

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                #26.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:40 PM EDT
                                                                Reply
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