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Governments dip deeper into alcohol tax well

Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:10 AM EDT
business, life, only-on-msnbc-com, taxes, sales, tax, alcohol, stores, liquor, lubbock
msnbc.com News — Alex Johnson, msnbc.com - Only on msnbc.com

A billboard reminding people of a tax increase is seen outside a liquor store in Springfield, Ill., Monday, Aug 31, 2009. Illinois consumers will pay more for toiletries and candy, along with liquor, starting Tuesday, as taxes on those items increase to help pay for the state's $30 billion infrastructure-improvement plan. (AP Photo/Seth Perlman)

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— Last week, residents across Lubbock County, Texas, began picking up six-packs of Lone Star on their way home. Legally.

For years, sales of packaged alcohol have been strictly regulated, limited mainly to private clubs, to some restaurants in the city of Lubbock and to a small part of the county known as the Strip. But after four months of planning, protests and appeals since voters overwhelmingly approved sales countywide, the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission last week issued 86 permits for packaged retail alcohol sales.

That terminated Lubbock’s claim to being, with those few exceptions, the biggest dry county in America — a distinction the county of 264,000 was willing to cede in exchange for a tax windfall during the worst economy in decades.

“For us, it’s from an economics standpoint,” said Matthew Kendrick, marketing director for a chain of convenience stores in the Lubbock region and a member of the political action committee that pushed the May 9 initiative. “It’s been legal in (much of) Texas for a long time now, and we’d like to reap some of the benefits.”

Those benefits can be substantial.
M. Ray Perryman, author of the closely watched Perryman Economic Forecast, which tracks the Texas economy, estimated that sales taxes on beer, wine and spirits could generate $5 million a year in new revenue for Lubbock County, which had to draw $3.5 million from its reserve to balance its 2009 budget.

The transformation of Lubbock from dry to wet is merely one example of a national trend toward looser restrictions on spirits, as local governments take a hard look at whether the social policy challenges of increased alcohol availability are outweighed by new tax revenue.  Dry areas are going wet, and others are liberalizing their laws by approving Sunday sales or sales in grocery and convenience stores.

Meanwhile, at least 14 state legislatures have considered trying to boost their economies through new or increased alcohol taxes, which can already top $20 a gallon for hard spirits.

Wet or dry or ‘moist’?
Alcohol laws are notoriously byzantine, representing shifting calibrations of morality, public heath considerations and money.

Even most so-called dry localities aren’t totally dry — many allow individual establishments to sell beer and wine by the glass but not hard liquor, while others tolerate ostensibly private “clubs” that operate outside the liquor board’s authority. The word academics and government record-keepers use to describe such places is “moist.”

The number of localities you could call legitimately dry is quite small — about 500 of the nation’s approximately 87,500 towns, cities and counties, according to the National Alcoholic Beverage Control Association, which represents government alcohol boards. David J. Hanson, a sociologist at the State University of New York at Potsdam who specializes in government alcohol policy, calculates it a different way, estimating that dry municipalities are home to 6 percent of the American population, mostly in the rural South.

Big retailers and restaurants in those locales have long complained that they lose business to establishments in neighboring wet localities. It’s a money-vs.-morality debate that often pits them against religious and community leaders who warn against the scourge of public drunkenness.

The Rev. John Dale, pastor of Glendale Road Church of Christ in Murray, Ky., where Calloway County officials last week rejected a petition to put packaged alcohol sales on the November ballot, said the issue was “the quality of life.”

“I’m dealing with people who are almost everyday problem drinkers — alcoholics. They are  really struggling,” Dale said. “They don’t want more and more availability of a product they can’t control.”

But Boone Chambers, president of a local group backing alcohol sales, lamented that “we’re losing millions of dollars each year out of the community.”

“The city could collect on those taxes and have more money circulating though town,” said Chambers, co-owner of the Big Apple Cafe in Murray, who said organizers would try again in the spring.

For small towns, chance of a big windfall
Washington County in the Florida Panhandle is moist, allowing sales of beer and wine but not liquor. As a result, businesses prefer to locate in surrounding counties “simply because they allow the sale of liquor and alcohol,” said Sheran Whitaker, chairwoman of Citizens for Economic Opportunity, which is seeking a referendum to turn the county wet.

The Rev. Alcus Brock, director of missions for the West Florida Baptist Association, has led a fierce fight against the proposal.

“We feel like, as responsible citizens of the community, that it is our responsibility and that we would be remiss if we did not try to educate the people on the ills of alcohol and some of the things that it would bring to our community,” said Brock, who heads Citizens for Positive Development, which was formed to oppose the effort.

For guidance, voters could look to places like Rockwood, Tenn., a town of 5,700 that opened its first liquor stores this month.

“We’re projecting around $80,000 a year to our budget, and that’s a whole lot for a small community like Rockwood,” said City Council member James L. Watts, who was mayor when the measure was passed by voters late last year.

Mark Green, a lifelong resident of Rockwood, which is in eastern Tennessee between Nashville and Chattanooga, said he had “mixed emotions.”

“I’m a Sunday school teacher, and I’m against drinking,” Green said. But at the same time, “We have felt the effects of the economy. A lot of people have been let go from industry in Rockwood, including myself, and it has hurt Rockwood.”

That’s the debate taking place in numerous communities, like Trigg County, Ky., which will decide whether to go wet in a referendum this week. The county executive, Stan Humphries, said the issue was so divisive that he simply wants the vote to be over.

Voters are similarly divided in Winona, Texas — so much so that when alcohol sales went on the ballot in May, the vote was a 94-94 tie. A revote will take place Nov. 3.

States look at raising current taxes
Raising taxes on alcohol also is an inviting option for lawmakers looking to close budget deficits or fund new programs. Some proponents of revising the health care, for example, have sought to hike federal alcohol taxes — currently 21 cents on a bottle of wine, 33 cents on a six-pack of beer and $2.14 on a fifth of hard liquor — to help expand the system.

In many areas, though, the push is on to increase tax revenue by increasing alcohol sales. The prime targets are Sunday sales and sales in grocery and convenience stores.

In Kentucky, retailers are lobbying the Legislature to allow grocery and convenience stores to sell wine alongside beer, which they can already stock. The proposal died in committee last year, but it’s expected to come up again this session.

“It’s a win for the consumer, it’s a win for the state, it’s a win for Kentucky’s winery industry, it’s a win for Kentucky’s vineyards,” said Luke B. Schmidt of the Food With Wine Coalition, which claims the expanded sales would generate an additional $30.1 million in tax revenue over two years.

In Indiana, a commission appointed by the Legislature began taking public testimony this month on whether to allow liquor sales on Sunday, which proponents claim would generate an extra $9 million a year in taxes.

In addition to religious leaders, the opposition includes operators of liquor stores, who say they would have to add staff, increasing their expenses. Jerry Corliss, who owns six Chalet Party Shoppes around Elkhart County, Ind., said it would cost him $75,000 in labor to open on Sundays just so he could spread six days’ worth of sales over seven days.

Arrests for operating a vehicle while intoxicated would also rise, Corliss predicted.

Ray Cox, owner of Elite Beverage Liquor in Indianapolis, said he feared that Sunday sales would price package stores like his out of business.

By forcing small merchants to compete on Sundays, “This is really Hoosier small businesspeople versus the giant Wal-Marts, Meijers and Krogers of the world that want to put us out of business,” Cox said.

Liquor a popular vehicle for taxes
Lawmakers historically have been more willing to heavily tax alcohol than they have other products, which is the main reason the retail price of a bottle of wine or liquor can more than double between the time it enters a state and the time you buy it.

Forty-seven states and the District of Columbia charge excise or production taxes on alcoholic beverages. (New Hampshire, Vermont and Wyoming are the exceptions.) Those charges can be as low as a couple of dollars to as high as the $20.76 that Oregon adds to each gallon of spirits.

This year, at least 14 of those states have considered legislation that would impose new or higher sales taxes on top of those excise taxes, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures.

Take Massachusetts, for example. Before a $10 bottle of Scotch can go on the shelf at the local liquor store, the state adds a 40 percent excise tax — or $4 — to the price.

In late July, the Legislature raised the state’s sales tax and extended it to include alcoholic beverages for the first time. That new 6.25 percent charge is calculated on the shelf price after the excise tax is included. So essentially the state collects a tax on a tax, equivalent to an extra 25 cents a bottle.

When all that is figured in, Massachusetts lawmakers are looking forward to a projected $80 million windfall this fiscal year. But Christie Faufaw, manager of Ryan and Casey Liquors in Greenwood, Mass., predicted that residents would simply drive over the border to buy their alcohol in tax-free New Hampshire. “How are we going to recoup those losses of taxes?” he asked.

Other states that approved raising taxes or other costs on alcohol sales this year include Kentucky, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Vermont and Washington. In Illinois, where desperate officials face a budget deficit that could reach $9.2 billion, lawmakers dramatically raised sales taxes, nearly doubling them on wine and liquor and adding 25 percent to the tax on beer. 

Gauging the impact on sales
While it’s too soon to gauge the impact of such increases, retailers like Faufaw warn of a strong backlash from consumers. They point to Kentucky, where the state sales tax of 6 percent was applied to alcohol for the first time last spring, on top of an 11 percent gross receipts tax the state already collected.

Even with more tax being collected on each sale, tax receipts on spirits fell by 45 percent from March to April, the first month of the sales tax, and by 55 percent from April of last year, according to figures from the state budget office. Liquor tax receipts rebounded in May and have stabilized since then, but they were still were down in August by more than 17 percent from a year earlier.

Even though overall tax receipts fell by a much smaller 13 percent in April, Kentucky officials said the losses were due to the economy, not to the new tax.

Derek Schneider, manager of Charles Medley Distillery in Owensboro, wasn’t buying the state’s explanation. He called the drop “a classic example ... when you tax something more, people buy less of it.”

To which Washington state has its own solution: Throw the doors open and sell as much liquor as it can as quickly as it can. It’s significantly expanding operations at state-run liquor stores, the only retail outlets for hard spirits.

In June, the State Liquor Control Board announced that it hopes to raise $16 million in new revenue this fiscal year, which began July 1. It plans to do so by opening 15 more liquor stores across the state; expanding Sunday sales, which began in some stores in 2005; and debuting temporary “winter holiday” stores, which will sell themed gift packages in major shopping centers during the Christmas season.

And, for the first time, drinkers will be able to buy booze on major holidays, including New Year's Day, Memorial Day and the Fourth of July.

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  • Public Discussion (253)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 ... 5
MichaelBo-796330

You want to save the economy? Legalize marijuana. $20 billion a year saved trying to stamp it out. Plus tax the sales from shops.

  • 26 votes
#1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:48 AM EDT
Un-Common Common Sense

Where does the insanity end? Taxes and fees are out of control. There is no reason for the government to increase taxes on anything. They need to learn to make due within their budget.

Stop the Insanity!

Term Limits on Congress Now!

  • 26 votes
#1.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:15 AM EDT
ljmahuiki

I knew as soon as they were getting away with taxing cigarettes, that they would go after alcohol; everyone told me that they would never do that; money is money and they don't care about going after people with vices; even if you don't drink and you stood by and watched what they did with cigarettes, you better stand up for this, as they will come after something else, and then something else. Slowly, we are losing all of our rights, and if you want to keep doing anything, you will pay big bucks to do it. After everything is done and taxed, they may start going after people who have to wear glasses, or who knows what. I think congress has gone bonkers.

  • 22 votes
#1.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:32 AM EDT
LU-404506

They should be adding a tax on other addictions like junk food, soda pop, and video games.

  • 11 votes
#1.3 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:34 AM EDT
Boo-331080

The Governments will be up sheets creek if everyone stops drinking, because they make out on both ends with drinking, first the taxes from the sales, then fines from people doing stupid sheet when drunk...... The Government needs to make due with what they have, they always tell us that we have to make due..... The States have already raised the rates on property taxes, just to keep Us paying for their health care, so we the people have not saved at all on the lower property values, because they just raised the rates..... Dam greedy bstrds they are for sure... People are getting sick and tired of paying for all their things all the time...

The Government is nothing but a legalized Mafia...

  • 24 votes
#1.4 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:50 AM EDT
wondering-1268808

yes, LU, and they should add a tax on high heeled shoes and juice that isn't 100% real juice too.

what happened to taxes won't be raised at all on the middle class? do you really want the government telling you how to live your life? wait until cap and tax arrives and see how much more you will be paying for electricity and energy in general.

why don't they put a tax on lies told by the government? that would provide ample income for all the people without healthcare and the new welfare laws going into effect next year!

  • 18 votes
#1.5 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:51 AM EDT
Anniek

funny how this did not bother a lot of people when it was smokes they tax the @!$%# out of, oh well junk food is next then the freeking air we breath.

  • 20 votes
#1.6 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:54 AM EDT
Boo-331080

They should have to pay for their own health insurance, and stop forcing people to pay for theirs. here I can not afford my own health insurance, but yet I am forced to pay for theirs ?????? We are forced to pay for all their stuff...

  • 8 votes
#1.7 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
USAWolf

AND THE COLLAPSE OF OUR ONCE GREAT COUNTRY CONTINUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of COURSE the states will look for any revenue stream they can to balance their budgets but this is getting ridiculous.

MORE TAXES, MORE TAXES, MORE TAXES AND THEN, MORE TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is the ONLY game our government knows how to play. Instead of fiscal discipline their solution is tax the middle class more and more. And yes, soon they will be taxing your fast food and sodas and video games as we all sit idly by and wring our hands as to HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN???????????? Because our government has NO CLUE how to balance a budget or even more frightening is that they don't WANT TO balance our budget!!!!!! As Charley Reese so eloquently put it in his article "545 PEOPLE",,,

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

How much more true can this be. THEY create deficits, national debt, inflation and high taxes. WE DON'T!!!! They create federal budgets, vote on appropriations and then have the BALLS to tell us what they did is NOT THEIR FAULT!!!!!!!!

AND WE BELIEVE THEM!!!!!!!!!!

And vote for them over and over and over again. And look around and see what they have created for us. A national debt that we will have to borrow money to pay the interest in a few years. MILLIONS unemployed!!!!! MILLIONS homeless!!!!! MILLIONS lost their savings and retirements!!!!!!!

MILLIONS LOSING THAT ONCE PROUD AND ATTAINABLE AMERICAN DREAM!!!!!!!!

Yet we argue about our POLITIC as we continue to support the same criminals that have brought our country to its knees. And their solution? Tax us more, and more, and more!!!!!! Lets cut half of government spending on entitlements and useless earmarks and see how much money can be truly saved when the corrupt politicians aren't padding their or their lobbyists pockets!!!!!!!!!!

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!

POLITICS AS USUAL ISN'T WORKING IN THIS GLOBAL ECONOMY ANY MORE!!!!!!!!!!

VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS IN 2010 AND 2012!!!!!

DEMAND TERM LIMITS, 2 TERMS FOR THE SENATE AND 4 TERMS FOR THE HOUSE!!!!

DEMAND TRUE LINE ITEM VETO

DEMAND TRUE SUNLIGHT BEFORE SIGNING OF 30 DAYS FOR ANY MAJOR LEGISLATION!!!!

AND KEEP REMINDING YOUR POLITICIANS,,,,,,,,

IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • 15 votes
#1.8 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:57 AM EDT
wondering-1268808

I agree Boo. how is it that property taxes can be raised of home values fell? I don't understand the logic there. I realize states have to find income because so many people have lost their homes and thus don't pay property tax, and people are only registering the number of cars they HAVE to have because they can't afford luxuries, but this is getting ridiculous. what can be done about this??

  • 1 vote
#1.9 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:04 AM EDT
Boo-331080

It is a no win situation with the Government, because if they have to pay for their own health, then they will just give themselves a raise... So again we end up paying for it... Even our Ex Presidents did not trust the Government......

“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence—it is force.” – George Washington

“The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants…God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms!” – Thomas Jefferson

“The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.” – Thomas Jefferson

“The right to revolt has sources deep in our history.” – Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

“But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of Liberty, and that you must pay that price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government.” – Andrew Jackson

“It has been observed that pure Democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this.” – Alexander Hamilton


  • 9 votes
#1.10 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:16 AM EDT
Leprechaun1230

Sounds like the taxes on booze is a function of State Legislature, local government and not federal government. Put the blame where it's due.

Seems opening up sales to convenience stores, supermarkets and so on would add some level of new jobs based on the story. New taxes always suck, that's a given. However, I'd rather pay more tax on booze, than have to lay off cops, and eliminate services. I also would like to see local govt. learn to do some belt tightening and learn to do more with less. We all know that won't happen though, right?

  • 5 votes
#1.11 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:29 AM EDT
indyday

In Indiana we need Sunday liquor sales, tax it all you need just get that damn law rooted in religious nonsense off the books!

  • 4 votes
#1.12 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:53 AM EDT
s.heraclitusExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

Here's and Idea: TAX CHURCHES!!! These self-righteous, moralist, big-mouthed evil religious types need to start paying their fair share of local budget needs. They go to church on Sunday to purchase their weekly mind-altering sermons, getting "High on the Lord".

Stop Legislating Morality!

  • 12 votes
#1.13 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
follow-the-dollar

Unfortunately, I am a skeptic. We will not stop drinking. Just like we did not stop buying gasoline, or SUVS, or cars.

We will find the discretionary dollar and find a way to spend...justifying all the way to the store....

I feel for the small business people who are taking a beating from the taxation that makes their products/items seem more expensive than they really are and I feel for the customer who has no one else to vent his frustration to.

  • 3 votes
#1.14 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:06 AM EDT
Michael Boyd-1035197

Look. WHO really ends up with the money? AND, with regard to those who don't end up with it, are THEY better off? What's YOUR bottom line? Will YOU be better off with the legalization of ANYTHING?

Eventually, THE SCUM BAGS end up with the money and then YOU will have to legalize something else.

Stop being so IDEALISTIC (actually, I am being so even saying it).

"An idealist is just someone who makes others prosper." Henry Ford I.

It's TIME AND MONEY. Even IF something is legalized YOU have lost what would have been gained had it been legalized long ago. WHY was it illegal in the first place?

    #1.15 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
    TampaSteve

    So many things to say about this...

    1) There should be no "dry" areas, erase the blue laws from the books. You can refuse to drink if you like or your religion calls for it but keep your preferences off the rest of us.

    2) Taxes are out of hand, first the smokers - nobody really cared about them, now the booze, more people may be upset about this one... Stand up for each other people, what happened to being united? We're all so intent on getting and keeping our own "whatever" that we don't look out for our neighbors. This ain't no tea party rant - those folks are years late to the party!

    Governments need to learn to live within their means like the rest of us! Sin taxes are wrong - booze, smokes, etc. What are the towns where these folks used to buy their booze gonna do to make up for lost revenue??

    • 4 votes
    #1.16 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
    follow-the-dollar

    LU: see comment 21 below:

    Illinois has strategically moved everyday items like chocolate bars, honey coated nuts, caramel popcorn, lollipops, breath mints, and gum into a higher tax bracket. Other items moved into that bracket include shampoo, toothpaste, suntan lotion, and mouthwash. Now, blowing bubbles while lying out in the sun costs just a little bit more.

    If that list does not raise an eyebrow, try this next list of items moved into the higher tax bracket: soda, sport/energy drinks, sweetened tea, and waters containing natural or artificial sweeteners.

    • 5 votes
    #1.17 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:21 AM EDT
    cmon-864012

    you people aren't seriously surprised by this? does the tag, tax and spend democrats ring a bell?

    • 7 votes
    #1.18 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:38 AM EDT
    Graeflded

    Except for the fact that most ' dry ' counties are staunch Republican or Blue Dog Democrat strongholds of piety and wholesomeness. Ha.

    Nice theory, but it doesn't hold. Taxes are raised by both parties, just depends on whom.

    • 4 votes
    #1.19 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:41 AM EDT
    VFW American

    All these Budget Problems stem from ignorant people that put idiots in office! If these cities would not put their faith in the next year and the next year and the next years Sales Taxes they would be doing as we, main street americans,do, and that is live within the known budget not some fictional thinking for next year???. Lets say that my family is going to make 250,000 dollars in the next 3 years. Now that, that" may happen" why don't we just go ahead and spend it now???

    BOTH DEMS AND REPS ARE TO BLAME FOR ALL THE CORRUPTION AND SPENDING.

    WAKE UP AMERICA

    TERM LIMITS IS OUR ONLY WAY OF GETTING OUR COUNTRY BACK.

    • 7 votes
    #1.20 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:05 PM EDT
    rachel-314542

    Wisconsin's Gov. Doyle has added a tax to Itunes. $.30 per song (was $.99; now $1.29). I guess listening to music has become a sin now, too. He also added a tax to ALL phonelines, land and cellular, of $.75 per line, per phone, per month. I suppose talking on the phone is a sin, too. God forbid you need to call 911. He added an additional $.75 per pack tax to cigarettes (he raised it a dollar last year). Property taxes will go up $93 this year, and $300 next year. Did I mention that even our auto insurance rates are going up because of the budget he put in place this year? Yet, where I live has a 10% unemployment rate, and because of the outrageous taxes that Doyle places on businesses, Wisconsin was voted the 3rd worst state to do business in, in Forbes magazine. I guess we won't see any jobs coming to Wisconsin anytime soon. And, yes, NOW they are raising the beer and hard liquor taxes too. Ain't life just grand?

    • 4 votes
    #1.21 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:49 PM EDT
    Jain

    They should be adding a tax on other addictions like junk food, soda pop, and video games.

    Lu, I would definitely side with you on that. Soda pop and junk food is contributing immensely to the health problems most Americans face. People dont drink plain water anymore. I am so glad that they stopped selling that junk in schools. Making them more expensive will undoubtedly reduce comsuption. We can kill two birds with one stone by doing this.

      #1.22 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:40 PM EDT
      dangstraight

      What will be taxed next? The air we breath? Long ago (40-50 yrs) we thought it would be preposterous for water and air to be taxed. Both are now heavily taxed either directly or indirectly.

      When will this tax madness stop? We are allowing ourselves to become a defacto socialist country by letting local, state, and federal governments tax EVERYTHING.

      It is time to look at the cost/benefit ratio of taxes vs. government services.

      This level of taxation is not sustainable. We may as well just give the government everything we have if this continues.

      Time to revolt against taxation.

      • 4 votes
      #1.23 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
      The Colonel-964761

      Yet another tax that, like the cigarette tax, will disproportionately hit the poor more than anyone else.

      Don't ya just love how they keep stickin' to the very people they claim they're trying to help?

      • 2 votes
      #1.24 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:56 PM EDT
      joeyfromcali

      Look we are supposed to live in a free society. Choices made by the public even if it leads to our demise are just that choices. the Idea that the Government is supposed to protect us from ourselves is insane.

      You cannot have a free Democracy when the government taxes and chooses what is illegal and what is not. Period. Lobbyists control both parties. We have not been a true free society for decades. And it wont start now. Money buys freedoms in this country period.

      • 3 votes
      #1.25 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:20 PM EDT
      George-St. Petersburg, FL.

      Don't see many people sticking up for these new taxes. Wish everyone here was around when Obama was taxing cigs an extra 62 cents a pack. Our Governor then decided to tack on another $1 per pack. How are these not taxes on the middle class? Can an Obama supporter please explain this to me?

      If anyone here thinks these (liquor taxes) will only be county and state increases you are being very naive. Then the soda taxes will kick in and we'll finally hear from a majority of people against that.

      Many laugh at the tea party goers because they don't understand what they are against. This is it folks. Most are against ever increasing taxes. Want to join yet?

      • 2 votes
      #1.26 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:21 PM EDT
      Miss Brown Eyes

      They absolutely don't get it with taxes. When they increased the taxes here in Kansas on cigarettes, a lot of people I know quit buy the name brand cigarettes (Marlboros, Camels, etc.) in favor of the ones made overseas (cigarettes made in TURKEY!) that are sold on the Indian Reservations completly TAX FREE. A carton of name brand cigs goes for $50 here, a carton of knockoffs is $27.50-30. Guess what everyone smokes?

      Same thing will happen with liquor/spirits. People will shop around for the cheapest price to buy the goods they want.  I live close enough to a border -- wanna bet people who live close enough to a state border won't start border jumping to get stuff cheaper?

      Taxes never solved the problem -- it's only made it worse. That person who might have only bought a botle of whiskey once a year... now is going to be buying 5-6 just to have on hand before the taxes go up. Just like the sign in the article promotes.

      Taxes on junk food & soda will never work either for the same principles. People will find a way around paying for it given enough angry provocation. New York and New Jersey figured this out long ago when there was a tax on clothing in one state and not in the other... guess where everyone goes to buy clothes????

       

        #1.27 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:24 PM EDT
        sparcboy

        Too bad they didn't do this before Kennedy died. The government could have made a fortune just off of him!!!

        • 1 vote
        #1.28 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:34 PM EDT
        amdac

        I read the statistics. It says smoking kills more than any other reason. It says alcohol kills very few. I disagree with that. I've seen many families ruined by alcohol. I've seen the alcohol treatment of young people soar. I've seen many fights, people being sick, physically abused family members, loss of jobs and much more due to alcohol. Maybe the area where I live (northern Minnesota) is just more alcohol prone. All I can say is that through my eyes it would be fine to put as much tax on alcohol as there is on tobacco.

          #1.29 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:51 PM EDT
          toolkien

          funny how this did not bother a lot of people when it was smokes they tax the @!$%# out of,

          Not true. I don't smoke and not overly fond of being around people who do, but on principal have been against sin taxes and the banning of smoking in "public" (privately owned bars, restaurants etc etc).

          It is amazing just how government bans something unless it can get a cut. Gambling was illegal, then it was decriminalized and "regulated" and soon governments began running gaming schemes (school lotteries). Then it was cigarettes complete with the industry shakedown a few years ago. Now dry counties are lifting prohibition and cutting to the head of the line for their skim.

          A government should exist (if is to exist at all) to protect life and property from clear and present dangers. ANYTHING ELSE is thuggery of one kind or another. And it is amazing when money is scarce and bureaucratic jobs and retirement accounts are on the line how the thuggery switches 180* from one kind to its opposite. Some cynics like me just might go so far as to call it tyranny.

          The axiom that "that which is not forbidden is compulsory" is coming truer every day - so long as the government gets as much of a cut as it can from going from one to the other. And freedom and liberty can apparently take a hike.

          And I so hope attitudes such as mine aren't too harsh for the likes of ol' Jimmy Carter and Robby Mondale. I understand that they are concerned with the nature if dissent these days. Maybe much of the average citizenry has been putting up with endless interference for years and years because enough was left to make fighting and bitching not worth the cost. With the breath taking power and choice grabs being made the envelope is being pushed WAY to far and people aren't going to stand for it much longer. The skims from on High to down Low aren't going to last much longer.

          • 2 votes
          #1.30 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:53 PM EDT
          George-St. Petersburg, FL.

          Don't worry Amdac, sooner or later they'll tax something you use & enjoy as well...

          • 1 vote
          #1.31 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:00 PM EDT
          Peed-off Peon

          When will it end. Soon enough very few people will work. NO INCOME - NO INCOME TAXES to be paid. If you dont make income you dont buy necessities or luxuries items. No cash - no gas, no grass, and no (the other thing) and no taxes made on any of it. If people, especially politicians think it can't happen - think again. ANYONE EVER HEARD OF THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

          It is starting to happen. Many people cannot afford the basics due to Unions and Special Interests groups pressuring the govenment to do this or that. Jobs are still going overseas to enable companies to make a profit? or more profit while the people who use to work them here in America have to make do with less and less while the "investors" still require to reap the rewards of having extra money that they can put into stocks so that they can make more and more.

          SO tax us more. Eventually the day will come that "govenment workers" will have to be laid off so that the govenment can continue to run us into the ground. TAX AND SPEND. TAX AND SPEND. EVENTUALLY THE MONEY WONT BE THERE.

          I got a great idea. How about NOT taxing people to death. When we are all out of work and cant afford food, much less afford cigarettes or alcohol or anything else, what will the government do to get us out of that one. Stick their heads into the ground like an ostrich and kiss their azz goodbye.??? Maybe we could get out of this mess if Politicians think with their heads and not with their wallets. PLEASE.

          • 1 vote
          #1.32 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:29 PM EDT
          amdac

          I didn't say that I didn't use or enjoy a drink or a cigarette. All I'm saying is that they say they tax cigarettes for the cost of the damage they incur. Why shouldn't they tax alcohol in the same manner?

            #1.33 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:30 PM EDT
            George-St. Petersburg, FL.

            They can say whatever they want. It has nothing at all to do with health concerns. It's all about generating tax dollars. I don't agree with either item being taxed at 20 - 50%.

            To answer your last point, I really don't think you can find a study showing 500,000 Americans die each year of alcohol related illness / deaths like you can w/ lung cancer etc..

            • 2 votes
            #1.34 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:42 PM EDT
            ONTIME

            So our geniuses in the congress of sleeze bags and dipwads are proposing the type of punitive taxation that will eventually lead us into a new prohibition era and a further breakdown of law and order. Most likely some of them are rubbing their hands together expecting this misconstrued logic to net them some kind of pocket money or a new way to invest illegally and avoid audits. Sort of like ACORN and SEIU only bigger and more violent but what he hell it's only the tax payers and the legal business that is being extorted, so what do you care, you voted a lot of these turkey's into office, now can you vote them out?

            I have strong suspicion if the climate was better marijuana would be in their domain and that some are already getting under the table monies from foreign countries, drug trade and whatever else their little scallywag hearts can dream up, just as long as they can make a law to protect their butts and keep you from finding out. That is just how much trust I put into 80% of the congress we deal with today and I think in some cases you could make this argument for much of state government. With government , Honesty is not the best policy these days, it doesn't pay well enough and working for a honest living is not the way of a lot of politicians.......knowhutImean, all you victims?

            Term limits, public audits and a 50% tax on their campaign funds would be a big help.

              #1.35 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:50 PM EDT
              jeeesus

              Taxes to Breathe, a License to Fart.. and in a round about dilemma, we are getting TAXED for the clean air act for the global climate agenda..this is ridiculous!!..for the Love of Money, MONSTERS have been Created.........

              • 1 vote
              #1.36 - Thu Oct 1, 2009 2:56 AM EDT
              Reply
              rebeljake

              Isn't it great how the moral dictators cave in when there is money involved! Stand up for what you believe in, unless you need cash flow.

              • 13 votes
              Reply#2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:52 AM EDT
              ModerationInAllThings

              This is what I'm thinking...

              DUI, DWI infractions generate at least $2-$3 thousand for EVERY bust... this is fines, court costs, and of course, Lawyers Fees.

              The same Government that CRIES, CRIES, CRIES about health care reform is going to push for more alcohol consumption. This goes a long ways towards proving that They are interested in socialized health care for those who WON'T WORK or are ILLEGAL; not promoting exercise, weight control, and healthier habits to curb medical necessities. They also aren't interested in fixing the current health care system through Tort Reforms, Regulations, and most importantly... BRING JOBS HOME AND EMPLOYING AMERICANS IN CAREERS, NOT fixing roads for a few months or generating bogus sales through cash for clunkers.

              Typical Career Politicians, feeding from the Federal Reserve... no changes, no changes, NO YOU CAN'T. Period. Or, won't. Bull.

              More accidents, domestic violence incidents, murders, you name it... happen because of peoples' inability to handle their liquor. So, let's give 'em more.

              Sound money making, all the way around, AND the socially responsible thing to do would be to legalize marijuana. Many of the same rules and regulations as with alcohol. People don't get "pot muscles" and instigate fighting and violence, they don't get in their cars and go 100 mph because they smoked.

              Non addictive, several health benefits in mild to moderate usage. It would save money all the way around, curb drug violence in sales DRASTICALLY, and loosen a tremendous, unnecessary burden on the legal system and prisons.

              But, They'll miss their money from all the marijuana-user related busts, so... sure, talk out both sides of your butt and promote socialized health care, don't fix the REAL problems, and promote more alcoholism to make the Governments and Fed Reserves cash.

              Business as usual, no you can't....

              • 2 votes
              #2.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:03 PM EDT
              pjam09

              It's never as much standing up for morality as it is standing up for the act of being seen standing up thereby giving themselves a feeling of self-righteousness.

                #2.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:47 PM EDT
                Reply
                ISpeakTruthDeleted
                rebeljake

                Instead of finding something else to tax, why don't we (voters) just make our government stop spending?

                • 20 votes
                Reply#4 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:59 AM EDT
                LU-404506

                You always have the option of now purchasing the booze.

                  #4.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:33 AM EDT
                  Ventsy

                  And how do you propose you do that? Everyone is talking about government cutting expenses, but when they cut your service you'll cry out "Bloody murder" won't you?

                  Example: Obama trying to cut his new helicopters. Everyone went nuts because people would lose jobs etc.

                  Cutting is not easy, actually its close to impossible.

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
                  indyday

                  I don't remember buying booze in the constitution as a right. Its a luxury, and luxuries need to be taxed to make up for the disastrous last 8 years. Legalize marijuana and tax it too, that will be a greater boost to the economy and far less harmful than booze could ever be.

                  • 2 votes
                  #4.3 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
                  dangstraight

                  LU & indyday

                  fools of the highest order if you think governments will stop at "luxuries" or "discretionary items". They are after total control. The only answer is to reduce the size of all government and to get them out of our lives, not to keep funding political careers, political action committees, and stupid projects like "health care".

                  • 7 votes
                  #4.4 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
                  Roger 2468

                  Good question. Which services and convinces should we tell the government to stp providing?

                    #4.5 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:19 PM EDT
                    George-St. Petersburg, FL.

                    I have a few. No more "free" healthcare for Congress or the first family. No more lifetime pensions for either. No more overseas trips paid for by tax $'s unless there is a stated, verifiable objective to the trips. No more going home every weekend for Congress on the tax payers dime. I would guess the savings from these cuts would be in the 100's of millions if not billions of dollars per year.

                    • 6 votes
                    #4.6 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:30 PM EDT
                    american vet

                    Hee,hee,hee,hee,hee. Thats a good one rebel! Still LOL!!

                      #4.7 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:42 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      Madison From NY

                      Hold on to your wallets folks, the Government is gonna get your money one way or another.

                      Ponzi schemes require more and more and more cash before they collapse.

                      • 13 votes
                      Reply#5 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:59 AM EDT
                      american vet

                      Kinda like the social security program that is due to go broke within two yrs!

                      • 3 votes
                      #5.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:43 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      Jerry-352313

                      If all elese fails, reduce spending.

                      • 7 votes
                      Reply#6 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:39 AM EDT
                      Jean-355063

                      My town voted to ban smoking in all public places a few years ago. The very next year they voted to allow alcohol sales when we had been dry. Of course, it's a simple matter of going to the next town, also within a different county, and bringing it home. What I don't get is how it is OK to drink and drive (the obvious result of having drinks with dinner outside your house) but it's not OK to smoke? These places have excellent ventilation; if you sit in the non-smoking area you will not "suffer any ill effects". You can clearly see who is smoking. Out on the road it's not always obvious who was drinking until it's too late. And let's not forget the lost revenue from smoking bans. Most smokers just don't eat out anymore, I know we don't. If you really want to regenerate revenue bring back smoking areas. But in the meantime, our household is saving lots of cash by not eating out anymore, which we used to do a couple of times a week…………….and not fast food, either. Two people, average $25 per plate, once or twice a week. You do the math. And don't forget to add the tip, money that the REAL workers need.

                      • 14 votes
                      Reply#7 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:39 AM EDT
                      George Was HereDeleted
                      CalicoWhispers

                      Here in Oregon there was talk a couple months ago about taxing how many miles you drive.. They wanted vehicles equipped with sensors to determine how many miles you drive and then at the beginning of the next year on your tax forms you have a place to put down mileage. HORSE@!$%#!

                      • 9 votes
                      #7.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:27 AM EDT
                      Are you awake yet?

                      Calico, they talked about that here in california too and (correct me if I'm wrong) the rest of the country. There was also talk about a higher "road use" tax for bigger vehicles. etc... (I already pay 3 times as much to register my truck as I do my wife's car).

                      Some lunatic in the state senate here also came up with the brilliant idea of taxing cars based on their color. His reasoning was that darker colored cars got hotter quicker in the sun and use more fuel to run the AC longer, polluting the air more than lighter colored cars (get the picture?)

                      After raising tobacco taxes, raising liquor taxes was inevitable. I'm surprised it took this long. Next will be fatty foods, salt, high heels, min-skirts, etc....(or anything else they come up with). They may not raise our income taxes, but they are going to get us when we spend our income.

                      The government does need to trim the fat and the biggest obstacle to it is the special interest groups. Someone is always crying with their hand out for one thing or another. It's time to get lobbyists out of the capitol. Congress needs a wake up call from us saying that it's time to stop giving away money we cant afford. They will NEVER vote trem limts for themselves, so we have to force it on them, by getting rid of them. Let's get some fresh minds in there and get rid of the lobbyists. We can be thier "term limits"

                      • 5 votes
                      #7.3 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:57 PM EDT
                      GregL-671049

                      Jene,

                      People who drink and drive,will any ways whether it's legal or not..We have sobriety check points up here..They advertise on the radio,TV and papers for a week..They still get 40 or 50 arrest..

                      Smoking is a different thing though..You say smoking in a restaurant in a no smoking area is ok..It's not..I can walk in to a restaurant and i can smell the smoke..If you want to kill your self fine,but i don't want to die that way...I have held a death vigil for relatives who smoked and got lung cancer...It isn't a pretty sight...That gasping for each breath is horrifying...

                        #7.4 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:25 PM EDT
                        George-St. Petersburg, FL.

                        I agree that you probably should keep smokers (like myself) separate when food is involved. As far as being in a bar or club goes, I think that takes it a bit far. Florida has a plan where if 20% or less of your revenue is from food you can allow smiking inside which is nice.

                        As far as the taxes go, seems the Government (state and federal) depend on the revenues from cig sales and those monies are counted on to pay for many things. Can't imagine either of the Governments want to see anyone quit smoking. Where will the money come from then?

                          #7.5 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:40 PM EDT
                          Losing Freedom

                          it is because tobacco servers medicinal purposes too which Big Pharma doesn't like; they hate competition and anything that will reverse their poisoning of the people. Same reason they hate pot and keep it illegal.

                          Ever notice, the campaign against cigarette smoking is conveniently and misleadingly labelled as "say no to tobacco". Well tobacco isn't bad for your health, cigarettes are (btw the link between smoking and cancer is still contentious but that's another debate for another thread).

                          Big Pharma (which runs our government, and controls what we eat, read and see) will not rest till tobacco is rooted out and totally under their control.

                            #7.6 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:01 PM EDT
                            Jean-355063

                            All those people who thought taxing tobacco was so great are finding out now. I knew all along that once enough people had quit because they couldn't afford it anymore and the tax revenue from tobacco dried up other things would be targeted.

                            Now, explain to me how Dana Reeves died of lung cancer. Anyone? Heavy smoking is, in my family, a family trait. Between 2-4 packs a day, plus many generations working the ship yards in Scotland before "clean" energy came along. Just about all made it well into their 90's. Lung cancer, like all cancers, is a genetic thing. Either it becomes active or it doesn't. Notice I said "becomes active"; that's because all of us are born with cancer genes in us. If you "get cancer" all it means is the cells became active. And that, folks, is a crap shoot.

                              #7.7 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:30 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              Skup

                              In the end money always wins out over morality. Its just a matter of finding the tipping point. It reminds of an article I read a while back. Cities that had installed traffic cameras at dangerous intersections were considering removing them because they had been so effective. The decline in tickets was cutting into the cities' budgets.

                              • 4 votes
                              Reply#8 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:42 AM EDT
                              hs1962

                              In WA state the taxes are so high it is just stupid. What they will realize is people drink less because they cannot afford it creating less taxes. Wake up lawmakers you are dumb azzes. A bottle of makers mark $62.00 what a joke. I was good for six or seven bottles a year now none kiss my azs you greedy pieces of sht.

                              • 16 votes
                              Reply#9 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:42 AM EDT
                              Holly-348328

                              A bottle of makers mark $62.00 what a joke. I was good for six or seven bottles a year now none kiss my azs you greedy pieces of sht.

                              Well said and seconded hs1962!

                                #9.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:48 PM EDT
                                Reply
                                cyfi

                                I agree, if they would legalize Pot, it would generate billions in new taxes and probably a billion in justice costs would be saved. Having restaurants being able to sell liquor does help sales, but like everything you have to use common sense and gov't seems short on that. Liquor destroys lives, pot is much less destructive and our policies are just plain ignorant.

                                From the people who brought you the mortgage crisis, now part two, special mortgage subsidies for low income people by Obama. Doesn't he get it, some people cant afford a house?

                                • 5 votes
                                Reply#10 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:45 AM EDT
                                George Was HereDeleted
                                Miss Ann Thropy

                                But if marijuana was legalized how would the privately run prisons make a profit? How would the CIA earn their black ops budget? How would you justify the militarization of police departments and the ever expanding surveillance state? What would happen if people actually started thinking they were free?

                                • 6 votes
                                #10.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:49 AM EDT
                                Jain

                                What would happen if people actually started thinking they were free?

                                Miss Ann,

                                Are you implying that freedom is just an illusion? Darn it! I was wrong all along.

                                • 6 votes
                                #10.3 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:45 PM EDT
                                Reply
                                S-n-S

                                I'm sure glad I work in Mo while living in Il. Gas is more then 20 cents cheaper in Mo and now liqueur is cheaper too. I can't believe how tax happy Illinois has gotten. Oh well since I'm already over here in Mo I guess I just do ALL my shopping over here where taxes aren't going to make me go bankrupt.

                                • 7 votes
                                Reply#11 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:55 AM EDT
                                George Was HereDeleted
                                George-St. Petersburg, FL.

                                Yes, this George was there. So glad I moved from there 11 years ago. I figure with the 0% income tax I pay here in Florida, I have saved almost $40,000 they would have taken from my income. Up till Dec. 08, I was only paying $28 per carton of smokes, IL. was around $45 a carton for all of those years. That's another $12,000+. Toll roads in IL are 50 - 80 cents per toll. We really don't have those around here. Another $5000. Property taxes were around $4000 on my house up there. Here they are down to $1200. There's another $30,000.

                                That's $87,000 from those items alone. Nice place to visit (in the summer) I would NEVER live there again!!! Have a nice winter...

                                • 2 votes
                                #11.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:55 PM EDT
                                blissful

                                I guess one of the benefits of living in AL is the low property tax rate...I only paid just over $300 last year for property taxes. I have a nice house on 1/2acre...no mansion by any means. I also live in a county that has mixed opinions of alcohol sales...the county is dry... but three of the main cities here have voted to allow alcohol sales to increase revenue. But up until just recently, no draft beer sales were allowed. Only bottles.

                                • 1 vote
                                #11.3 - Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:05 PM EDT
                                Reply
                                Jesse7372

                                I am not a drinker but it ticks me off the govt increasing taxes on the sales of alcohol to make up a deficit in the budget. Instead of having the govt cut back (like your typical American is doing) it just raises taxes. I realize the govt has cut back here and there but taking more money from Americans is not the answer but just creates more problems. Like it or not but our economy is based on people buying and selling goods. Taking more money from those who buy those goods is pretty stupid.

                                If you own a company and your sells are decreasing because people have less disposable income the first thing you will probably do is lay off some of your employees. Which increases unemployment and everything that goes with it.

                                • 7 votes
                                Reply#12 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:01 AM EDT
                                Mike-1037986

                                AMAZING...I guess when Obama said no new taxes to less than $250K...we will get to everyone else by consume commodities...

                                Have you ever wondered how much taxes are paid to "commodities" to subsidize our government? So that our government can wastefully spend in areas they seem fit?

                                • 6 votes
                                Reply#13 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:03 AM EDT
                                Ventsy

                                This is local government changing regulation and has nothing to do with Obama.

                                Not to mention that a lot of the places mentioned in the article are traditional Republican strongholds.

                                • 4 votes
                                #13.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:10 AM EDT
                                NMCARL

                                And also, liquor is not a commodity..... DUH!

                                  #13.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:52 PM EDT
                                  George-St. Petersburg, FL.

                                  Ventsy,

                                  62 cents per pack was all Obama last winter. If you really don't think they (The Federal Govmt.) are considering national taxes on booze and soda etc... you need to pull your head out and smell the tax hikes. Wake up..

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #13.3 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:52 PM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  sel-915492

                                  In Tennessee it's called a "sin tax" on beer and liquor. One of the ironic parts is that the county where Jack Daniel's in made is a 'dry county' and you can only buy Jack Daniel's at the distillery.

                                  True, the politicians use this guise to increase revenue, but there are some people who truly feel a duty to restrict alcohol. Unfortunately, the problem with this whole system is that you can't legislate morality. Prohibition proved that.

                                  • 6 votes
                                  Reply#14 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:03 AM EDT
                                  wondering-1268808

                                  then again, by who's standards should "morality" be judged?

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #14.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:06 AM EDT
                                  Ventsy

                                  You are right. That's why we are losing the "War on Drugs" - you simply can't legislate morality. If people want it bad enough they'll get it no matter what the law says.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #14.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  Ridgelon

                                  Yep, legalize pot. Its smoked everyday anyway with or with out the lost "War on Drugs" Why not make some money on it, its never going away. People have used it since the dawn of humanity and will continue to as long as there are people left here. It was made illegal when some a-hole wanted to sell his trees and wasn't doing to good because you can make EVERYTHING out of hemp. Now we want to save the trees, legalize weed and use hemp for paper..HIPPY POWER!!!!

                                  • 3 votes
                                  Reply#15 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:24 AM EDT
                                  american vet

                                  Yea, I had forgot about that. Was it the Hurst family that had bought the huge forrest for its newspaper empire and to sell to others. It is rediculous to not legalize pot except that it is to simple a problem to solve.

                                    #15.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:52 PM EDT
                                    Jain

                                    They would legalize pot, if Ron Paul became president...

                                      #15.2 - Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:12 PM EDT
                                      s.heraclitus

                                      Ron Paul For President 2012

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #15.3 - Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:42 PM EDT
                                      Reply
                                      Roberta K. Starkey

                                      We need to cut the GOVERNMENT in half. Most state, government workers don't work 8hours. If you smashed their day - the actual work they did would be about 3 hours. And then the nice benefits, and wage makes for a great fat system. It's busy, busy work, that is non-productive - but LOOK AT ME!!! See how necessary I and my branch of the state is...and look at all the new laws WE need to create and justify our jobs, so we can become more PREDATORY and FEED off of the nincompoops that HIRED us in the first place. And then we'll sell CHEAP alchohol and put HIGHer taxes on it, and on CIGERETTES and on Prostitution and on Marijuanna and Heroin and Meth and Air as we penalize those who PAY for us.

                                      What type of crock of motivational energy governs, leads and rules us???

                                      • 6 votes
                                      Reply#16 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:35 AM EDT
                                      Azrancher

                                      You know I admire people when they truely believe in something, even when its different from my belief. I dont have to agree to recognize honest convistion. But this should be proof positive that the government is not establishing laws based on honest belief of benifit to community, they are a bunch of money grubbing hypocrites. They existed for years as dry area's because they dipped their cups into a different money well and that allowed them to be stuck up, now since that well went dry (pun intended) they abandoned their so called conviction to prositute for money, typical. I dont personally believe any of it should be banned let the people choose. But to preach one thing for years (since I was a young kid in wets texas) many of these self rightous counties regulated our lives by morality because us citizens were just "incapable" of saving ourself's, they are just money whores.

                                      • 6 votes
                                      Reply#17 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:41 AM EDT
                                      Miss Ann Thropy

                                      Leave it to the morons in government to kill the goose that layed the golden egg. What right does the government have to control a privately made product that free people choose to use? The tick is now as large as the host with no more blood to suck out. Let's just hope that this will spawn a new generation of moonshiners, giving the finger to the taxman.

                                      • 9 votes
                                      Reply#18 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:43 AM EDT
                                      Neg

                                      Great login name!

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #18.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
                                      Reply
                                      stymie222

                                      If this tax money does somehow reach and benefit the taxpayer, then only those that consume alchohol should benefit.

                                      Why should it benefit the people that have stood in the way of legal drinking for decades and turned the cosumers into criminals ?

                                        Reply#19 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:43 AM EDT
                                        Ventsy

                                        So what do you propose? Building a highway lane for drinkers only?

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #19.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:16 AM EDT
                                        George Was HereDeleted
                                        George-St. Petersburg, FL.

                                        Nope, just poor kids with no insurance. So they raised taxes on mommy and daddy's cigs for their kids benefit... And raised my taxes and I have no children. I thought my property taxes were for that.

                                          #19.3 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:15 PM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          Graeflded

                                          Since we love taxing ' morality so much, let's go right to the source of ' morality ' and tax it; tax all religious organizations until they scream. Since they feel they can meddle in politics the separation of Church and State is a fiction. Tax 'em all until they stop trying to legislate morality.

                                          Or we can have another ' Whiskey Rebellion '. That really went over big last time....

                                          • 5 votes
                                          Reply#20 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:43 AM EDT
                                          NMCARL

                                          Amen Brother!!!!

                                            #20.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:56 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            follow-the-dollar

                                            Well, well, well...to drink or not to drink...that is the question. the segment of our society that likes to have a drink is now going to pay more for that liesure. I suspect that the focus of the local goverments on spirits is only a direct result of the fact that sales of spirits is relatively high--even when the economy is struggling. Why not tax and retax (to the tune of millions of dollars) that item that our people are using to drown their economic sorrows in? Besides, when the economy recovers, won't we go back to buying more beer, wine, and spirits to celebrate the recovery?

                                            Illinois has strategically moved everyday items like chocolate bars, honey coated nuts, caramel popcorn, lollipops, breath mints, and gum into a higher tax bracket. Other items moved into that bracket include shampoo, toothpaste, suntan lotion, and mouthwash. Now, blowing bubbles while lying out in the sun costs just a little bit more.

                                            If that list does not raise an eyebrow, try this next list of items moved into the higher tax bracket: soda, sport/energy drinks, sweetened tea, and waters containing natural or artificial sweeteners.

                                            Follow the dollar...where are all of these dollars going to end up? A few years ago the dollar went into our pockets. We spent like there was no end to the cash flow. Now the cash flow that was going in our direction is slowing ever so painfully. Someone, somewhere is making decisions to keep that dollar out of our pockets and in someone elses.

                                            One way or another the cash flow will continue. The only diffenrence now is that the flow is going in a totally different direction. Follow the dollar...take a look at where it will turn up. Highways? Roads? Parks? Salaries? Local businesses? Health and welfare? Bailouts? Salaries?

                                            Follow the dollar....

                                            • 2 votes
                                            Reply#21 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
                                            Devil's Advocate-784471

                                            I think it's interesting to read people's views on how we are taxed and taxed and taxed again. I'm sure some of these tax monies are wasted on worthless government programs, but most of it is not. If I'm understanding the right wing philosophy correctly, there should be little or no need for "government", which means there would be little or no need for taxes that fund government programs. So, programs that are legitimate, such as Medicare and Social Security, would need to be run by the private sector, which would need to make a profit to stay afloat. So, these corporations would be like insurance companies, correct? You'd take out a policy with a periodic contribution you'd need to pay to them throughout your life until retirement. To me, what's the difference in paying a private corporation (which could fail before you see any benefits come your way) a periodic policy payment, or paying government taxes towards the current system? Before you say goverment waste and beaurocracy and other wasteful spending, keep in mind that the government does not make a profit, whereas the supposed private corporation in charge of our retirement entitlements would need to make profits to stay afloat. Who should I trust....the government or crooked CEO's that are only in it to make a buck for themselves.....hmmm....that's a hard one!

                                            Now...about the current and proposed "sin taxes" on tobacco and alcohol. All you conservatives out there who screamed about why you should have to pay for other people's bad choices and misfortunes during the housing bust, you said why should you have to pay taxes to prop up banks that gave mortgages to people who couldn't pay it back. You say these borrowers were irresponsible (duped, in reality) in thinking they could buy more house than they could reasonably afford. Hey, that should not be your problem, right? Now, apply that mentality to the "sin tax". Aren't you making the choice to legally purchase that bottle of 40y/o scotch, or that box of high-end cigars, that are both slowly making you sicker and sicker? When your liver gives out, or your lungs stop functioning, due to years of substance abuse....and we "healthy" people have to pay more in medical insurance premiums because we have to make up the difference of what you and your insurance policies won't pay towards your treatment....are you saying you can't compare the housing crisis to the health insurance crisis? Why should we have to pay for your bad choices of smoking and drinking yourselves to early graves? Well, since there's no real chance of outlawing the use of these substances, the only fair thing is to either raise the insurance rates for smokers and alcohol abusers, or have them be taxed when they purchase the booze or the cigs. I think that's totally fair, but only if the funds generated are solely used for the treatment of substance abuse and nothing else. And, I'm also in favor of legalizing and regulating recreational drugs, such as pot. This way, you can tax the purchases of pot and that can go towards the treatment of people who abuse that, as well.

                                            You can't live in a world without government taxes....I have about as much trust in the corporate world as I do in the federal goverment....little or none! So, since one is just as bad as the other, let the government do it. After all, if they don't perform to your expectations, you can always vote the bums out. Not so with private CEO's!

                                            • 2 votes
                                            Reply#22 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:54 AM EDT
                                            TampaSteve

                                            That makes entirely too much sense, it must certainly be (socialism, communism, fascism, ?ism) chose one.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #22.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:25 AM EDT
                                            Are you awake yet?

                                            Very well thought out comment and I agree with very little of it. But thats just the differences in your's and my opinion. I will point out one specific item though. You mentioned that:

                                            After all, if they don't perform to your expectations, you can always vote the bums out. Not so with private CEO's!

                                            The bums are not getting voted out. They continue to hold their elected offices regardless of what we see them doing. How long was Kennedy a senator? How long do you think Pelosi is going to continue to be a congressman(or woman or whatever)? They are NOT getting voted out. Being an elected official is (for the most part) a career! it was never meant to be that way, yet here we are. They are as difficult to get rid of (sometimes even MORE so) than a CEO. When are we, as a country, going to wake up and see this?

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #22.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:11 PM EDT
                                            Devil's Advocate-784471

                                            Hey "awake"...

                                            If the "bums" aren't being voted out, it must be that they are doing a good enough job that more than 50% of voters agree with them. I hear all this uproar and commotion about the Obama administration taking us into a socialist state.....but when the 2010 elections take place, instead of a massive swing in voter sentiment towards conservatism, what we'll probably see is that little if any change will be voted in. Why will this be, if everyone is in agreement with you and other right-wingers that Obama and his cronies must be voted out?? It's because the excesses and greed of the private sector have finally done so much damage to the nation's and the world's economies (thanks to George "Dubbya") that something...anything...has to be done to keep us from the brink of financial catastrophe. Just because a minority of people (mainly the rich who don't want anyone telling them they can't steal from others) think we're heading towards a socialist state, doesn't mean that what they believe is correct. The corporate and financial bigwigs brought this on themselves, so they have no one to blame but themselves.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #22.3 - Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:26 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            The Spy

                                            I live in what is considered to be a "Moist" county here in north Mississippi which means that if Jesus turned the water into anything stronger than Bartles and James, He'd be hauled away in handcuffs and charged with bootlegging. It's a strange situation living in the county seat of a dry county and it's legal to buy beer and "Light Wine". There is a vote every five years or so to allow liquor sales that is soundly defeated with the vocal victors that scream about the sins of alcohol usually celebrating by having a couple of drinks at the Elks club that is the modern equivilent of the speakeasy compleat with a security door that requires a keycard and video surveillance camera in case the law is at the door. You can't have a Church Deacon being busted for booze around here...

                                            What is really stupid is if you want liquor, You can take a twenty minute ride and buy all you want and not only does the potential tax revenue leave the county, It goes to another state.

                                            • 3 votes
                                            Reply#23 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:54 AM EDT
                                            Don Trillest

                                            I suffer from the same North Mississippi problem as you. We can't buy beer on Sunday and can't buy cold beer any day of the week so many of us just drive out to Marshall County.

                                              #23.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:06 PM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              Ray-824348

                                              Here's a suggestion to all the tax and spenders.

                                              Try a new approach. Cut spending!

                                              Then go home, have a beer that isn't taxed to death, and feel good.

                                              • 3 votes
                                              Reply#24 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
                                              Graeflded

                                              Ray, great idea! I say cut ALL government spending by 50%. That includes the military, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc., not just social programs. I can hear the screams now. I guess it all depends on who's ox is going to be gored.

                                              • 3 votes
                                              #24.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
                                              Jim in Texas

                                              Sounds good, Graeflded ~ and would work until all social programs ran out of money, the CDC shut down and we fall victim to epidemics and plagues, air traffic controllers take the day off and hundreds of mid-air collisions occur. Wildfires would have no one to fight them, law enforcement virtually vanishes, fire departments put their vehicles on blocks, federal highway systems fall apart. We would have no control over medicinal drugs and potions that would flood the market for windfall profits, our VA hospitals would have to eventually close, and our national defense would crumble ~ making us bigger sitting ducks that we already are. I've noticed that those who bitch about taxes are the first to complain about potholes. But hey, lets put your theory to the test.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #24.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:48 PM EDT
                                              Ray-824348

                                              Graeflded - How about avoiding all the typical scare-mongering that governments do when they want more money, and work on the many, many non-essential wastes of money that take place at every level of government.

                                              Funny, how they always think of police and fire protection cuts before they go after their stupid pet projects.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #24.3 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:06 PM EDT
                                              Devil's Advocate-784471

                                              Jim in Texas....I agree. But, I believe the nay-sayers are probably up in arms about wasteful spending of tax dollars, not necessarily the taxes we all pay towards maintaining the federal- and state-run agencies you mentioned. It could very well be that these agencies will still be subsidized, even if we cut income taxes and other taxes by 50%. The scientists will just have to find their grant money elsewhere to find out what the mating habits are for the North American Red-breasted Coo Coo Bird!! It's grant money like that that's wasteful.

                                              I believe it was William Proxmire who started a yearly award, called the "Golden Fleece Award" years ago, that brought attention to wasteful government spending. Some of the winners of this award were beyond belief! Unfortunately, as long as we have politicians with no morals or virtue of any kind, we'll always have pork-barrel spending. They're always looking to pump tax dollars into their state, no matter what kind of bizarre projects the money is funding. This year, it's called "Economic Stimulus", but what will they call the wasteful spending next year?

                                              I'm all for being taxed if my tax dollars go to funding the agencies you mentioned, Jim. But, you can bet that over half your income, personal property or sales taxes are going towards pork-barrel projects, and that's what's burning everyone up lately, and I can sympathize.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #24.4 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:20 PM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              jarnold68

                                              Soon, there will be a breath tax to curb CO2. Silly, yes. Yet not far from the truth I fear.

                                              Also, I find the religious who are against alcohol hypocritical. The bible itself gives example of Jesus making alcohol based wine from water at a wedding in Cana. So, not only alcohol via power of miracle but ALSO at a religious function. Thereby making alcohol and its consumption NOT a "sin" in and of itself. Also, Jesus not only MADE the wine, but probably had a sip or two.

                                              Stop preventing people trying to make it in a tough economy from having an opportunity. Everyone needs a package store from time to time, even Jesus!

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#25 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
                                              Graeflded

                                              It was his own wedding too!

                                                #25.1 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
                                                NacioS

                                                You are incorrect on that statement....

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #25.2 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:19 AM EDT
                                                Graeflded

                                                Not to get on a religious history arguement here, but no Jewish male over the age of 20-25 years of age was unmarried. Sorry, it was culturally unacceptable. Unless you're suggesting he was, well, you know......

                                                  #25.3 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:45 AM EDT
                                                  hilobamacaine

                                                  yeah.... a catholic that's why he drank

                                                    #25.4 - Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:12 AM EDT
                                                    Reply
                                                    tony-850969

                                                    Mike:

                                                    Yeah blame it on Obama...That's brilliant. You can blame it on the hypocrit right wing. It's all about morality until money is involved...Then it's ok. I highly doubt the people in these dry counties voted for Obama.

                                                    • 4 votes
                                                    Reply#26 - Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:17 AM EDT
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