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Jobs vs. bottom line in mega military project

Mon Oct 5, 2009 8:09 AM EDT
business, military, only-on-msnbc-com, jobs, construction, air-force, workers, wages, abercrombie, guam, kari-huus, strike-eagles, b-2-spirit, cecilio-ricardo", expeditionary-bomb-squadron, expeditionary-fighter-squadron, f-15e-strike-eagles
msnbc.com News — By Kari Huus, msnbc.com

ANDERSEN AIR FORCE BASE, Guam -- F-15E Strike Eagles and a B-2 Spirit bomber fly in formation over the base. The Strike Eagles are with the 391st Expeditionary Fighter Squadron from Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho. The bomber is from the 325th Expeditionary Bomb Squadron from Whiteman AFB, Mo. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. Cecilio Ricardo)

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— In the midst of a recession that has cost millions of Americans their jobs, a massive military construction project on the U.S. territory of Guam is provoking a unique debate that boils down to this deceptively simple question: Should the government be more concerned about creating jobs or minding the taxpayers’ money?

At the center of the debate is one of the biggest construction projects on the U.S. government’s “to do” list: a roughly $15 billion military base expansion that is expected to require some 20,000 construction workers starting next year. Guamanian Americans will fill some of the jobs, but most are expected to go to foreign workers from the Philippines, China, and South Korea.

If it hadn’t been for the recession and climbing joblessness in the United States, the project might have gone forward in obscurity — as often happens on the remote Pacific island.

But a Hawaii lawmaker is challenging the rules that govern the project, which includes the construction of the military facility and housing for 8,000 U.S. Marines and their families. Rep. Neil Abercrombie, D-Hawaii, inserted a provision in the 2010 defense appropriations bill to require 70 percent of the project jobs go to residents of Guam or the U.S. proper. And, in an attempt to lure more stateside American workers to jobs in the far-flung territory — a seven-hour flight from Honolulu — the amendment would roughly triple hourly pay on the project to match Hawaii’s wage levels.

“It’s using U.S. taxpayer dollars to build a U.S. military base on a U.S. territory,” said Dave Helfert, Abercrombie’s press secretary. “Why would we not use those dollars to put as many American workers to work as we can, especially in the construction industry, which has been hit so hard?”

The House approved the Abercrombie amendment in June. But the Senate version does not address the issue and Democratic Sen. Daniel Inouye, Abercrombie's fellow Hawaiian and influential member of the Senate, opposes the measure. The two chambers of Congress are now in conference hammering out the details of the 850-page defense bill, and a final version is expected by mid-October.

Whether or not the amendment remains in the final version, it has stirred strident debate in both Guam and Washington.

While enthusiastically embraced by labor advocates, the Abercrombie amendment has run up against a long tradition in Guam of relying on imported construction workers to bolster the small local workforce, a practice that has kept construction wages low. Guam contractors and government leaders in Guam have slammed the proposal as unwanted meddling in the local labor market. The Pentagon is against it because it would add billions to the cost of the project, which was estimated based on prevailing wage levels for construction jobs in Guam — just half the U.S. average.

Out of Japan
The Guam buildup is part of U.S. military realignment in the Pacific resulting from the growth of anti-American sentiment in Japan, where the United States has maintained large bases since the end of World War II. A series of U.S. military accidents that caused civilian deaths and the rape of a Japanese schoolgirl by American servicemen in the 1990s sparked a movement to expel U.S. forces from Japan. In 2006, after prolonged negotiation, Washington and Tokyo agreed to relocate some air bases farther away from population centers in Japan and move the U.S. Third Expeditionary Marine Force to the U.S. Pacific territory of Guam.

The base build-up in Guam will turn the tiny island — currently home to Andersen Air Force Base — into a major hub of U.S. military operations in the Pacific, with facilities for submarines, aircraft carriers, and Navy Special Operations forces.

Within the overall $15 billion project, Japan has agreed to chip in $6 billion for housing and facilities. Twenty-three thousand active military personnel and family members will move to Guam as part of the realignment. Japan agreed to cover $6 billion to help build housing and facilities for some 23,000 active military personnel and family members who will move to Guam as part of the realignment.

Labor costs for the project were determined under a formula laid out in the Davis-Bacon Act, using a rate scale for workers based on local income levels. In Guam, those rates are low — too low to attract American workers from the states, Abercrombie argues.

Under his proposal, a carpenter would be paid about $36 an hour – the going rate for federal projects in Hawaii — rather than the $11.70 that the Pentagon budgeted for the construction in Guam.

At these rates, Abercrombie says, stateside construction workers will be willing to travel to Guam for jobs. According to the Associated General Contractors of America, the U.S. construction industry lost 1 million jobs in the year ending in August 2009. Arizona suffered the biggest percentage decline — losing 50,000 construction jobs, or nearly 27 percent of its total.

Hawaii lost about 5,100 construction jobs — 13.6 of its total — over the same period.

Abercrombie's detractors have portrayed his Guam proposal as pandering to workers back home as he prepares to run for governor of Hawaii.

But Helfert, Abercrombie’s spokesman, said the amendment was “not just aimed at Hawaii workers. It makes sense if you have people out of work to create jobs for them — whether it’s in California, Nevada, Arizona or Oregon.”

Tight budgets, tough talks
Even though the Abercrombie proposal can be cast as stimulus money, it would add to costs at a time when the U.S. is struggling to contain military spending while fighting two foreign wars and contending with growing demand for veterans’ services. According to the Congressional Budget Office, the wage hike would drive up the Guam project by about $10 billion.

That’s a change some think could complicate already prickly talks over the military realignment with Japan’s newly elected leaders, who have taken a more nationalistic stance and threatened to withdraw financial and logistical support for various U.S. military operations.

“Given all that is going on … spending an extra $10 billion seems very unlikely,” said Todd Harrison, a fellow for defense budget studies at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments in Washington, D.C. “Also, we are in this jointly with the Japanese. If we throw in some requirement to pay these higher wage rates and 70 percent of the labor force has to be U.S. citizens that could cause the Japanese to reconsider their role.”

The move to bring in U.S. workers by raising wages has met with fierce resistance from contractors in Guam, who benefit from the ability to use temporary foreign workers under the H2B visa program. Since the 1950s, most major construction projects in Guam have employed foreign workers — primarily from the Philippines — who live in barracks provided by contractors and then return home when the job is done. There is no union for construction workers in Guam, nor is there a system of unemployment to assist local workers during dry spells — both factors in a persistent shortage of construction workers in the territory.

“The temporary workers and H2B workers really fit for Guam,” said James Martinez, president of the Guam Contractors Association.

At the moment there are about 1,800 “guest workers” in Guam, or about a quarter of the total  construction workforce, according to the Guam Department of Labor. That number swelled to about 6,000 during a construction boom fueled by Japanese investment in the 1990s, and a U.S. military official visiting Guam last year predicted that about 12,000 temporary workers would be needed to work on the base project. Recruiters are already active in the Philippines, with some trumpeting up to 50,000 job opportunities on the base project, and other construction on Guam sparked by the U.S. buildup.

“Certainly there’s no closed door for workers from the U.S.,” said Martinez. But he said his organization opposes putting a quota for American workers or hiking wages to assist unemployed construction workers elsewhere in the United States. “Unfortunately we can’t be the answer to the economic woes of Hawaii or the rest of the U.S.,” he said. “We don’t want to be forced to pay wages that don’t fit our economy.”

‘Effects... could be disastrous’
Guam Gov. Felix Camacho and the territory’s sole representative in Congress, Madeleine Bordallo, also oppose the Abercrombie amendment.

“If wages were to go up on military construction projects, we risk taking government of Guam employees out of their jobs and working in the construction industry,” said Matthew Herrmann, press secretary for Bordallo. “The socioeconomic effects on Guam could be disastrous.”

Supporters of Abercrombie’s proposal also argue that the wage increase is long overdue.

“The business community in Guam has consistently used H2B workers to drive down wages in Guam,” said Matt Rector, a territory senator who heads Guam’s labor committee as well as the Guam Teacher’s Union, which represents public sector workers. “Would (the Abercrombie proposal) destroy Guam’s economy? No, it would fix Guam’s economy. The economy is so depressed.”

The average income in Guam is about $28,000 a year, according to Guam’s Department of Labor, while the island’s cost of living is higher than that of Washington, D.C. Half of the population earns under $10 an hour, and about one-fourth of the population is on food stamps.

Penny wise, pound foolish?
“It may cost more in the short term, but all that money is coming back into the U.S. economy, either reducing (poverty) in Guam, or back in continental U.S.” said Rector. To reject it, he says, would be “penny wise and pound foolish.”

Gary Hiles, economist for Guam's Department of Labor agrees that bringing in U.S. workers at higher wages would cause some hiccups in the local economy.

But he notes that there are advantages to hiring Americans over foreigners to do the work on U.S. bases: “National security is one of them. The (higher) quality of workmanship is another.”

And paying higher wages also would bolster the local economy, he says, more so than hiring foreign workers who typically send much of their earnings out of the country — and generate additional tax revenue for badly needed infrastructure upgrades.

“I think the U.S. workers would buy and rent cars, go to restaurants and hotels and barbershops — a whole array of things that (foreign) workers in barracks don’t do,” Hiles said.

“The additional investment to make Guam jobs attractive to U.S. citizens may well be a cost effective economic stimulus policy in putting unemployed U.S. construction workers back to work,” he added. “Certainly, construction work could be done at lower cost on the U.S. bases on Guam by primarily importing temporary foreign labor from Asian countries, just as it could be done cheaper on U.S. bases in Hawaii, California or any other state. ... But is that the policy that the federal government wishes to pursue?”

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Madison From NY

Jobless US citizens should be favored in projects paid for by US taxpayers.

Not credible will cost $ billions more so long as the unions don't take over project.

  • 12 votes
#1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:01 AM EDT
Paul Lucero

I find the major point here is a misrepresentation.

DO you know WHY the Japanese are paying 6 billion?

Because they want us the HELL off their Land!!!

It is time to bring all American TROOPS home!!!

  • 20 votes
#1.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:19 AM EDT
Bernie-548913

Paul Lucero: Guam belongs to the United States. We need a strong presents in the Pacific. Guam and Hawaii are where its at. We removed our presence from Okinawa and now it will be Japan. I agree with the base construction but strongly disagree with hiring people from Korea, Phillpines and other far east countries to do the work. We have a log of unemployed people in this country and many would go happily to Guam for work. When the Alaska pipeline was built, it was built by American Labor. The same should hold true for Guam.

  • 25 votes
#1.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:55 AM EDT
Chuck_454

A US military project on a US territory paid for with (mostly) US funds and they want to export the jobs. Where are all the Democrats with their minimum wage demands wanting to keep Guam in poverty and stiff American construction workers.

A base of this size is an economic engine that will employ a large protion of the locals and result in hundreds (1000s?) of support contractors moving there to open offices and I would expect there will be some major supply depot/repair & overhaul facilities included in this.

Yes there is poverty in Subic Bay but a rising tide does in fact raise all boats. Some more than others but they all go up.

  • 10 votes
#1.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
Paul Lucero

It is time to LEAVE KOREA!

Fine build it with Americans, But please get out of all these good for nothing Asian Countries!

  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:03 AM EDT
A REPUBLICAN

The Japanese mainly want the Marines out of Japan (sorry Jarheads). The Japanese don't necessarily want all of the forces gone. There economy is getting better- and like all countries that have relied on us during hard times- they want us gone. Of course these countries cry when we pull all of our troops out and stop sending them money for other support. These are countries that we defeated in most cases. NO TROOPS NO SUPPORT OF ANY KIND!

  • 15 votes
#1.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:29 AM EDT
Dave-267754

Chuck - Subic Bay is in the Phillipines and was closed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subic_Bay

  • 2 votes
#1.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:31 AM EDT
doubting thomas 1

Hmmmmmmmm !!!!!

Some of you are also voicing my thoughts ! It's time to think about relocating all these forces back to the United States, where all the money will be spent on our Country.

We can redeploy troops / airforces almost overnight or we should be capable of doing that and not waste untold future Billions on keeping troops overseas. Where is the leadership to make the changes needed ???

Oh !! I am not a Liberal !! I am a staunch Conservative who believes we need some new thinking in our Military !!! and our Government !!!

  • 11 votes
#1.7 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:44 AM EDT
Captain Marvelous

hmmmmmmmm?

I wonder if there is a Democrat senator or congresswoman from California who has a spouse that will be making millions off this project? Maybe a relation to the same individual that exempted Samoa from the Federal Minimum Wage increase because her husband has tuna business interests there.

  • 17 votes
#1.8 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:45 AM EDT
Josh-683880

The Guam military expansion is great but a $36 prevailing wage is not. The democrat lawmaker from Hawaii is in touch with the unions but out of touch with the general population. Here in California there are plenty of construction workers who would be willing to work for $11-12/hour.

  • 12 votes
#1.9 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:50 AM EDT
JEREMY-664722

Sure, build a base when hundreds here have been cut back or even sitting idle. On top of that, build it somewhere where it would cost triple to get Americans there to build it. Way to go whoever thought this up. Glad to see noone passed economics( even at a high school level).

  • 4 votes
#1.10 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:53 AM EDT
Momus2009

This has been in the works since the 90's. Although the "average" American that hasn't been anywhere outside of these borders seem to think this is somehow all of a sudden, this project was being planned before all of the last few batches of "Okinawa incidents" happened. Just goes to show how "informed" Americans really are. Most of you have NO CLUE!

  • 4 votes
#1.11 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:05 PM EDT
SonOfLliberty2008

The $36/hr rate for a carpenter is pretty steep. I think it's mostly a good idea to reserve most of the jobs for locals and other Americans, but there's no need to pay them that much.

There are lots of construction workers who would travel there to do the work, and why not use military transports to take them there for free?

  • 5 votes
#1.12 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:06 PM EDT
easydoesit

Chuck_454

a rising tide does in fact raise all boats.

Is that like 'trickle down'?

Some more than others but they all go up.

Always the caveat, it seems...

    #1.13 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:31 PM EDT
    I'm Ringo

    "Sure, build a base when hundreds here have been cut back or even sitting idle. On top of that, build it somewhere where it would cost triple to get Americans there to build it. Way to go whoever thought this up. Glad to see noone passed economics( even at a high school level)."

    You build military bases where you need military bases, not in the cheapest possible location. It isn't saving money if you are 'saving' it by making the project useless. If only you had passed high school level economics Jeremy, then you would realize that.

    • 7 votes
    #1.14 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:32 PM EDT
    Red-693841

    We should be watching taxpayer $$.  I'm in the military and the "spend it all and we'll ask for more" line is uttered daily.  We buy things for the sake of spending the money because if we don't spend it, our budget is cut the next year.  

    • 5 votes
    #1.15 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:33 PM EDT
    dewintre200

    Want to see where your tax dollars are going?

    Here it is...

    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    Interesting that HALF of all personal income tax collected now goes straight to paying interest on the debt.

    • 1 vote
    #1.16 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:37 PM EDT
    William Root

    This is derfinitely a "No Brainer", except for those in office without any brains! We just gave billions of our tax dollars to bailout campaign contributors who failed because of greed and unethical business practices. And even after bailing them out, they still not have shown any interest in helping those they hurt the most, the average working and now unemployed american worker. If we add billions to this project by employing americans, those billions will be put back into "our economy"! The wages of the chinese, korean's, etc. will not. But again, our elected royalty is not concerned with the average american worker, but is concerned with the contributions, and influence those supplying foreign labor can bring them!

    • 2 votes
    #1.17 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:57 PM EDT
    Svenolafson

    Just think. If we did not allow any mechanical aids in doing the construction we could increase the number of workers required by a factor of 5 to 10. Now that's a jobs program!

    • 4 votes
    #1.18 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:58 PM EDT
    1screaminEagle

    I dont care whether it (the base) is added onto or not. Ya we need to build up our presence in that region and it will bring more assets to bare if something were to happen. But what bothers me in this PC world is that one of the most strongest thieves of PII and gatherers of intel is China and N. Koreans pretending to be S. Koreans. We have got to get our OPSEC under control. I have always wondered why I can go to google maps and see any part of the US military bases and other sensitive areas but I cannot go and see in definition Russian Sub bases, Iranian Coast assets and other countries assets. This is just mind numbing, and we have know respect or objective to protect our own national assets. All americans must be able to see these places and every other country are off limits. This is just one area where we are weak and these weakness will or could bite us in the behind.

    • 4 votes
    #1.19 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:14 PM EDT
    Love America-1349918

    Who "cooked" up this idea?

    Surely, it couldn't have been President Obama. Who? What?

    • 2 votes
    #1.20 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:19 PM EDT
    Richard Baxter

    The contractors will be the ones who become fat cats on this project. You canbe sure the unions will force their hand and ship union workers over there before it's all said and done. Obama the clown doesn't care about the cost or where the workers come from. This project before its finished will cost billions more than the projected cost now. You can be sure friends of friends will get rich on this one. Just thankful Obama doesnt want to pull out of this base too.

    • 2 votes
    #1.21 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:39 PM EDT
    TampaSteve

    Go ahead and employ American, no problem - just not at $36 an hour with my tax dollars. What a crock.

    • 2 votes
    #1.22 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:41 PM EDT
    lk in la

    SonOfLliberty2008

    The $36/hr rate for a carpenter is pretty steep. I think it's mostly a good idea to reserve most of the jobs for locals and other Americans, but there's no need to pay them that much.

    There are lots of construction workers who would travel there to do the work, and why not use military transports to take them there for free?:

    This is the difference between the Great Depression and the way things are done now. Nobody would have had an argument back then against your ideas.

    • 1 vote
    #1.23 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:43 PM EDT
    karen Willoughby

    To Bernie, post #1.2

    You DO know the difference between Alaska and Guam don't you?

    Such as, Alaska is one of our own states while Guam is not? (sure HOPE you knew that!)
    So the two are not an equal comparison here.
    ****************************************************
    Anyway, I had no idea we've been supporting all these Philippinos, Chinese etc. in overseas gov't contract jobs. That's been a well kept secret all these years!

    • 4 votes
    #1.24 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:54 PM EDT
    NU Wildcat Fan

    dewintre - Not half, yet, but it's coming.

      #1.25 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:57 PM EDT
      maddog-752810

      Looks like another slap in the face for the average American worker. I guess it's alright with congress if we keep outsourcing jobs while Americans are wondering where they're going to live or if their going to get a meal. Thank you congress for being so completely insensitive to the troubles of your own constituents. Keep it up, I'd love nothing more than seeing our representatives in the soup lines, although I'm sure they would expect first pickings at the meat and veggie chunks.

      • 3 votes
      #1.26 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:59 PM EDT
      JEREMY-664722

      Whether it's been planned for years or not... It should be put on hold. So Ringo, If the base gets built by non-american labor at a third of the cost it would take for americans to do so.... The project is useless?? My economics work well when it comes to my money. I wished the gov't thought as much of my tax money as I do.

        #1.27 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:11 PM EDT
        I'm Ringo

        No Jeremy, another base in the middle of the US would be useless. They were closed for a reason, and opening them back up would just be a waste of money that would be better spent on Guam where we need it.

        Sorry, but the concept of 'Let's build something that we don't need only because it is cheaper than something we DO need' is an economic failure.

        • 4 votes
        #1.28 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:25 PM EDT
        DisabledVeteran, observer

        Hey, Abercrombie ----- If you want to have American workers get priority of "foreign" workers, fine. Submit THAT in a bill. However, seeing as your local economy is in a difficult state right now, I would think that your construction workers would be happy to have ANY construction work at all. If they want to work for the prevailing local (Guam) wages, great. They go to the head of the line. But if they want to get TRIPLE the wages, forget it. Be realistic, pal. Don't use taxpayer money to buy yourself a few local votes, unless, of course, the citizens of Hawaii want to foot the bill for the extra BILLIONS ! No? I thought not.

        • 4 votes
        #1.29 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:42 PM EDT
        Right...

        To SonOfLiberty2008, in regards to

        "There are lots of construction workers who would travel there to do the work, and why not use military transports to take them there for free?"

        You do realize that isn't free, right? Those still cost money in terms of fuel and maintenance (I'm sure there are other costs too).

        • 2 votes
        #1.30 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:51 PM EDT
        oldotto2

        Agree, U.S. workers should get priority for these jobs, but how many would accept the lower wages? We need to look at this as similar to a depression era WPA project. If a US worker is willing to accept the job, then gov't provides transport from west coast bases. Workers live in contractor provided housing and with minimal living costs, they can send $$$ home to families just like the other workers. Is it better to get $11+/hr for working, or to collect unemployment at home? Get to experince what the GI's have always experienced without getting shot at, and for more $$$. Good deal if you've got the guts to do it! Jobs available, prima donnas need not apply!

        • 3 votes
        #1.31 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:57 PM EDT
        PragmaticToAFault

        I didn't even finish reading the article, because I don't want to know what lame a$$ excuse they're using for building a $15 BILLION dollar - TAXPAYER dollars - facility half way across the globe and even CONSIDERING employing foreigners to build it when nearly 20% of the people in this country who want to work DON'T HAVE JOBS.

        What the hell.

          #1.32 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:02 PM EDT
          cmon-864012

          besides bernie thinking we need american "presents" (like a pony!) around the world, all those bases are a huge waste of money. this us just more govt waste.

            #1.33 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:03 PM EDT
            Peed-off Peon

            Although its preferable to hire U.S. workers, the problem lies in the fact that most are unionized and require higher wages than our government has alloted. Since this construction can be done with lower wage workers by outsourcing the jobs that is what they will do. If some of this u.s. workers didnt need to make a fortune then they might get hired. Did any of these guys go to school to learn how to do carpentry, I doubt it. I went to college and unfortunately due to our economy and the job market in my location I earn approximately what they would pay these third world workers. Thats the real problem. People expect to get rich working a job for which they didn't really do much to deserve. Kinda like our politicians getting $160K a year for screwing up the country. $36 an hour. Show me a job IN the U.S. that pays that nowadays. I'll be there. Im not in favor of lower incomes but since we have little or no jobs available I think people would get on a plane and go to guam and work for $11-12 an hour. Thats damn good money for these foreigners.

              #1.34 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:06 PM EDT
              What are you thinking

              The IRS and Social Security refuse to peruse identify theft by foreign workers because they collect the taxes from the illegals; all of these foreign workers can use stolen IDs without concern.

              The victims of ID theft, the good citizens of America (you and I), are left to deal with the consequences on our own.

              Not only this, as foreign workers with illegal fraudulent documents, they stand a better chance of getting Amnesty for citizenship under Harry Reid’s Bill (S9 PCS).

              And what is the intent of this bill? Check this link.

              House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) calling Immigration and Customs Enforcement “un-American." (Fox News, March 18, 2009; See Fox News video here

              “The issue is this bill is placed "for other purposes" as is stated in the last line of this bill.

              "Stronger Economy, Stronger Borders Act of 2009 (Placed on Calendar in Senate)

              S 9 PCS

              Calendar No. 9

              111th CONGRESS

              1st Session

              S. 9

              To strengthen the United States economy, provide for more effective border and employment enforcement, and for other purposes.

              IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

              January 6, 2009

              Mr. REID (for himself, Mr. LEVIN, Mr. KERRY, Mr. KENNEDY, Mr. BEGICH, Mr. DURBIN, Mr. LEAHY, Mrs. BOXER, Mr. BINGAMAN, Mrs. MCCASKILL, Mr. LIEBERMAN, Ms. KLOBUCHAR, Mr. SCHUMER, and Mr. BROWN) introduced the following bill; which was read the first time”

              “and for other purposes.” Means Amnesty for illegal’s and votes for socialize.

              • 1 vote
              #1.35 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:07 PM EDT
              ONTIME

              The government will always represent waste, it is not a business it is a series of services funded by taxes and will generate opportunity to a segment of the economy also opportunity spin off, it is necessary and without oversight can become most expensive, bases and security are among the items that are tax generated and administrated by government. If you think you can simply withdraw from alliances and treaty obligation then you had best get your ostrich head out of the sand and rethink what is involved and understand that we cannot just abandon allies and strategy on a whim.

              There is a need to consolidate, on this most agree, how and when is always in question and the politic of the matters is time consuming, the military is always in need of upgrading and improvement if we as a nation are to deem ourselves secure and safe to operate as a nation practicing democracy. We are not imperialistic and we are not without foe, we are in need of a military presence on land, sea and in the air and now space and money time and effort is a requirement, base expansion and improvement will be necessary, if you want to remain a nation, if you want security then the need for bases, oversight and tax money will be a ongoing requirement.

              • 1 vote
              #1.36 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:23 PM EDT
              JEREMY-664722

              I never said "Let's build something we don't need..." I did say don't build in Guam. I'm still confused on why we really "need" a base there. The picture of the one already there looks lovely. Maybe the gov't really wants to turn it into a resort.

                #1.37 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:23 PM EDT
                JC-525762

                How about this : AMERICAN labor or no money!

                and as for Japan paying $6 billion to get us off their land, they better have thought twice lest they forget the atrocities they inflicted upon the Chinese!! Now the shoe is on the other foot so to speak!

                • 2 votes
                #1.38 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:25 PM EDT
                Derek-381097

                Oh, and the REALITY of not paying foreigners sets in.

                First off, $36 is the rate that it would cost to hire said worker. It isn't what the worker gets. That, by the way, is a Hell of a lot less than the approximately $90/hour a construction worker gets. That construction worker only sees $45 of it. So at those percentages, its a bargain.

                But here's the bottom line: As someone said, when it comes to the military, it costs what it costs. And those jobs should be held by a majority of American citizens. If our taxpayer dollars went to hire them at higher rates, I'd have a lot less of a problem with it than dolling out $4500 because you have a car of a particular age and mileage.

                These are the costs. Stop trying to make the Military into Wal-Mart. You get what you pay for.

                • 1 vote
                #1.39 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:43 PM EDT
                jeeesus

                this seems to be; If the American Military and the presence of the American Enterprise wants to be everywhere..then the American Republic should have much more, American Workers involved for Employment..with the unemployment crisis now, why not consider American Workers for Employment anywhere ??? through these Big Government installations of America..one hand, should care for the other hand, does that ring a bell ??

                • 2 votes
                #1.40 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:48 PM EDT
                I'm Ringo

                "The picture of the one already there looks lovely."

                Yeah, Jeremy, I'm sure it'd look great with thousands of people living in the streets and a bunch of equipment and vehicles scattered about in piles because you didn't want any of the houses or facilities that are needed.

                • 2 votes
                #1.41 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:52 PM EDT
                PDub

                If you think you can just go get a job as a carpenter without schooling or 5+ years of experience working under an experienced carpenter you're kidding yourself. If you went to college to get a job that pays in the $12 an hour range someone hustled you pretty good. I have no college degree and make $15 an hour working in health care. My wife has a master's degree also working in healthcare making $41 an hour. At the end of the month when all the bills are paid I have more mony left over because of her ginormous student loan payments. College isn't all it's made out to be these days with the insane costs.

                • 1 vote
                #1.42 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:54 PM EDT
                ROY WILSON-336103

                So we're supposed to spend an extra $10 Billion to pander to construction unions?

                What a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money.

                Nothing in the plan prevents American workers from participating in the construction, but we shouldn't be subsidizing them with taxpayer money.

                • 2 votes
                #1.43 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:42 PM EDT
                spg64-1292127

                Roy,

                Good to see Americans willing to give away our jobs to the Chinese on a military base no less. Why not find a compromise. Lets cut out the middleman contractors like KBR who always take the lions share and use unlicensed foreign labor who do crap work that ends up killing servicemen and women. Let the Government run the project and pay US workers a living wage of say $20 an hour and hire Americans to build American Military bases.That way we can come in at or under budget and not electrocute a bunch of soldiers trying to shower.

                  #1.44 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 8:29 PM EDT
                  theotherguy1234

                  It seems many of the posters have their heads up their fifth point of contact. Guam is a territory / protectorate of the US, so technically it ~IS~ US soil (being born there can get you US citizenship). Its not a state so therefor doesn't have to pay federal income tax and other obligations, but they don't get any senators or anyone in the HoR. They DO get politicians that can be their voice in congress, just they can't actually vote on anything.

                  That being said, current federal law requires the DoD use a competitive bidding system, especially in construction projects. And those construction companies are required to hire the cheapest labor possible in order to win the contract. Thats just how the law of economics works. This guys bill would tinker with those laws, most specifically in the pay required for work.

                  Now onto the issue of foreighn nations, these guys are hired en'masse to go out and build things. The management and QA is usually US citizens, but the brute force work is done by the cheapest labor possible. They work much more then 40 hrs per week and live in barracks type arrangements. Par for the course for most of them, but horrible under the expectation of many US workers.

                  Most US citizens would only want to work 40hrs per week with overtime for anything more and be provided with their own living arrangements. Also Quam is on the other side of the world from the US. This means leaving their family's for 6 months or more depending on how long their part of the contract is. Most people in the US would rather sit at home and collect unemployment, or just do nothing then travel to the other side of the world to do construction work. That and the union's won't let their people near these jobs.

                  As for the miliary moving, thats because its ridiculously expensive to live / maintain a ground force in Japan. We can stomach the costs in South Korea because its pretty cheap to live there, but Japan is another story. Also having a military base provides a point of power projection. With a base in a country we can project military power into the surrounding regions. This ability to project power prevents other-wise not-too-good countries from doing a land grab. It also allows us to respond to any incident within hours rather then days and with heavy equipment rather then light airborne assets. And of course the REAL power of the US military is our aircraft carriers, and you need a home station for one of those. Currently there is an entire battle group assigned to the East Asian region. It's headquartered in Japan and the US has always wanted to move it to a US controlled location. Hawaii is too far away, so they choose Guam. This will be a huge economic boom to the local economy and much of that money will get put back into the US economy.

                  • 3 votes
                  #1.45 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 8:37 PM EDT
                  madmax13Deleted
                  ROY WILSON-336103

                  spg64-1292127 "Roy, Let the Government run the project and pay US workers a living wage of say $20 an hour and hire Americans to build American Military bases."

                  I would agree with you if Americans were willing, but the problem is the government dictating Union wages, at 3 times the cost.

                  • 1 vote
                  #1.47 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:41 PM EDT
                  my-2-cents

                  I never said "Let's build something we don't need..." I did say don't build in Guam. I'm still confused on why we really "need" a base there. The picture of the one already there looks lovely. Maybe the gov't really wants to turn it into a resort.

                  apparently Jeremy, you have not served either in the military or worked for DoD. The Pacific base is very much needed.

                  Also the cost for any type of construction on the military bases on Guam will be high due to the fact that the structures are all made of concrete to withstand typhoons. I was there when Super Typhoon Pamela hit is '76 with winds at 180 mph, it push water right through the cement walls. If structures were made of anything else, they didn't exist after that storm.

                  • 2 votes
                  #1.48 - Tue Oct 6, 2009 6:53 AM EDT
                  JEREMY-664722

                  I have neither worked for DOD or served. I have worked in the Virgin Islands during huricane season putting up power lines and know everything, in order to withstand for years, has to be built from concrete or so strong, and costly, that it should have been built with concrete. I have worked construction with concrete, wood and steel and realize what it takes to work with these items. I have traveled working road costruction and realize the cost of moving material and men to locations to work. It's costly and when it comes to my tax money paying for a military base on an island where materials are expected to be imported( at higher prices, of course) and it comes down to "importing" american workers (at probably $100 an hour, total expense-$20 or $30/hour, food and lodging) as opposed to local labor at maybe $10 to $12....... I say let the locals do it, if it really "has" to be done.

                  This doesn't make any sense economically speaking at all. I'm not "anti-american". I think this should be put on hold indefintily until our economy recovers. Why write another "rubber check" for something that's not neccesity? There is a base already there, we're not building one from scratch, just remodeling.

                    #1.49 - Tue Oct 6, 2009 9:12 AM EDT
                    I'm Ringo

                    "Why write another "rubber check" for something that's not neccesity? There is a base already there, we're not building one from scratch, just remodeling."

                    Okay, then if your plan is so great, please tell us where the other thousands of people will go, and where all the equipment and aircraft are going to go if we don't build any housing or facilities for them?

                    • 2 votes
                    #1.50 - Tue Oct 6, 2009 10:12 AM EDT
                    k.i.s.s.us taxpayer

                    with so many unemployed construction workers in the US why not offer them a chance to work in GUAM at the same proposed wage and similar living conditions that the foriegn workers and local GUAMANIAN workers will be exposed to if they're unemployed it may be appealing to them and I'M sure there's more than a hand full that would do it that way the politically motivated Senator win's the voluntary U.S. unemployed worker win's and the TAXPAYERS win by not having to put up with another one of those rediculous over budget projects that our leaders so wrecklessly promote, K.I.S.S.

                      #1.51 - Tue Oct 6, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
                      wildweasel66-358178

                      1 - military construction projects not in CONUS have always used locals. as Guam is an American territory, it should use predominantly those residents to the extent they are qualified.

                      2 - abercrombie is a hypocrite. he's a true obamn-ite in that he has always voted to gut the military. so he must owe the unions big as he needs to be re-elected.

                      • 3 votes
                      #1.52 - Tue Oct 6, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
                      kkuuDeleted
                      Dominique-1388265

                      Nice!!!!!!! How about sending and printing this article in every newspaper for starts? Next, make sure that most journalist inform the public of this story, then the Ameriacn people can flood Congress with E-mails and let them know that when it is time to vote again, they are not getting back in or how about we do not vote and force a radical change? It just continues from bad to worse and the hypocrisy is just too much! Is is not obvious peole, that the big wigs do not care about us, look at the situation!

                        #1.54 - Wed Oct 7, 2009 4:20 PM EDT
                        Lkessler

                        If Ms. Haus even needs to ask this question, this administration's so-called "priorities" have changed radically in 10 months. The answer is an obvious: mind the money, stupid!

                        Oh, but wait--Mr. Obama printed plenty of money that is utterly worthless right now to "stimulate" the economy. Never mind.

                        • 1 vote
                        #1.55 - Fri Oct 9, 2009 5:49 AM EDT
                        Reply
                        Rdsesc

                        As a contractor that depends upon military spending for the majority of my business income I can appreciate providing jobs to American workers. However I do not agree with raising the prevailing wage to lure workers to Guam. The military should not be a jobs program. They need to be able to get the best deal on construction possible. Our government needs to get out of the spend top stimulate mentality. We need them to show restraint with our money and cut our taxes. That will stimulate new jobs.

                        • 17 votes
                        #2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:05 AM EDT
                        my-2-cents

                        I agree. Offer the jobs to american workers, if they don't want them at the proposed rate, then give it to someone who does want a job.

                        • 14 votes
                        #2.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
                        notbornyesterday-359530

                        Gee, Rdsesc, I think we should show "restraint" when it comes to YOUR paycheck. Let's LOWER YOUR wages to match those of your favored foreign scabs! You are one of those contractors whose ass should be kicked out of all military expenditures!

                        You said it, "The military should not be a jobs program." So get out--you have had your turn. Now give it up to some other AMERICAN who has no job and is not so hypocritical!

                        • 15 votes
                        #2.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
                        Jim in CA

                        I agree with you, but isn't also true that if a carptender really wanted to work he would go there and accept the local prevailing wage? The true meaning of prevailing wage is just that, not some wage the trade unions think its worth.

                        • 8 votes
                        #2.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
                        Momus2009

                        Redsec, notbornyesterday, hit it right on the head! How can you sit there and say in the same breath that the military is your bread and butter so to speak and then go on to say the military shouldn't be a jobs program? The military IS a jobs program. Not only on the Active Duty and Reserve side, but also on the DOD Civilian and Contractor side also. Why do you think military recruiting numbers went up when the country went into a recession? Because it's a JOBS program.

                        • 13 votes
                        #2.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:19 AM EDT
                        EonFlux

                        I agree with you Rdsesc, we Americans ask more per hour than what we are worth. I'm an out-of-work carpenter and I'd rather work for $13 per hour than not have a job at all. If 'notbornyesterday' thinks the foriegners making $11 an hour are scabs, I wonder what he thinks of the millions of Americans making minimum wage are? There are many american carpenters making less than $11 an hour. Offer them the jobs first, it would be a pay raise to them. Then any openings left can go to the foreigners. I had to get my house painted inside/out. An immigrant wanted $10 hour and an american bid $50 per hour. I had a choice $1000 or $5000 for the complete job. A no brainer. The quality was excellent. I'm against spending an extra $15 billion in taxpayer money to pay high wages.

                        • 13 votes
                        #2.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
                        usmcvet5711

                        Eon and those others who support immigrant or better known as the illegals in this state work that depressses your wages get a clue. this is the reason that your wages are so low. I bet you paid that painter in cash too huh. The reason the licensed professional painter bid $50.00 per hour is to support his business and to pay all of the fees and taxes that come with running his legal business. The migrant illegal workers is the reason that construction wages in this country have dropped so far. Additionally if you had a painter that bid that high then you did not look far enough because the professional would also have paid for the paint and materials. Additionally a truly credible painter would not bid per hour instead he would bid per square foot. So instead of supporting the driving down of wages how about supporting a legal American Business man.

                        Another thing to take into account is that any American that went over there woudl still have to pay income taxes and support a residence in two places now too. Yes to go overseas out of town and make only $11.00 per hour is not right for anybody. This is an American base and this is what the stimulous money if anything should be spent on.

                        Just goes to show how low the democrats are willing to go to play politics. One Hawaii democrat wants to have 70% of jobs go to American workers with decent pay in a decimated industry and another democrat from the same state wants to oppose him strictly on a political stance because he afraid that the first is trying to buy votes for an election. If I were in Hawaii I would vote for this rep as he is actually trying to get legislation that would put Americans back to work instead of employing foreigners who would send the money out of the country. Eon seems to think these are high wages but what they actually are is the going wage in Hawaii. This is the reason that America is where it is at is people who only want the cheap work instead of supporting American labor.

                        • 8 votes
                        #2.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:03 PM EDT
                        SonOfLliberty2008

                        usmcvet has hit a bunch of nails on the head with his comment. Those who hire cheap foreign labor can only expect to see everybody's pay go down, including their own.

                        We'll all in this economic boat together folks.

                        • 8 votes
                        #2.7 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:11 PM EDT
                        Momus2009

                        America has ALWAYS been about cheap labor. Every "Western" country for that matter has always been about cheap labor. This country was initially built on FREE labor, then moved on to cheap labor, until the unions got together and said to the top 2% enough is enough. I'm not all union, but don't blame the unions, because if it wasn't for the unions, all of you complaining about "high wages" could be making the same as that Thai-worker in that Nike sweat shop in Quindang!

                        But even with that, that still doesn't mean there needs to be this underminding of an inevitable project trhat has been in the works for over a decade now.

                        • 6 votes
                        #2.8 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:20 PM EDT
                        Jean-721732

                        Why do you people get in a fret over a carpenter's wage? These are professionals, tradesmen, who have by by experience and training, perfected their craft.

                        This is the same logic as a doctor's fee, an accountant or an attorney. Do not be so shocked over Union wages. These people have earned their labor rate.

                        I would rather pay the extra money and hire a skilled American trades person than hire a cheaper, poorly skilled, non American worker.

                        Look at the debacle in Iraq over hiring cheaper, unskilled labor in their electrical engineering. Remember, the soldiers getting electrocuted in their showers?

                        And I would not even trust that these cheaper labor costs will be billed correctly. Jeesh, we have not been auditing the money in Iraq and it is estimated that millions of dollars have been wasted or unaccounted for.

                        • 7 votes
                        #2.9 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:27 PM EDT
                        martvol

                        What you people fail to understand is, That if our wages were not artificialy inflated to begin with, you would not miss them. Your high wage caused inflation. (Thanks for that.) Your jobs are going overseas for a reason. There are only so many construction jobs to go around if manufacturing is gone. We have shipped the unskilled work off because you people thought you were worth college educated price right out of high school. Look at the obscene amount a highschool gradute can get starting wage in automotive. And you wonder why the jobs are gone.........

                        • 6 votes
                        #2.10 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:53 PM EDT
                        Svenolafson

                        Jean, I've worked behind a union journeyman plumber. I think the guy was really hungover or still drunk. The work he did was pitiful. I had to go behind him and fix about a dozen leaks. Heck some of the PVC he didn't even glue. I could have gone to my manager and asked him to have the contractor fix the mistakes but I was worried about having that guy back in the shop. Lots of nasty chemicals that I could see the guy tripping and falling into. So don't give me that high and mighty union crap. They are as bad or worse than the non-union workers. The non-union worker doesn't have the benefit of a union shop steward standing behind him so he better do a good job.

                        • 4 votes
                        #2.11 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:10 PM EDT
                        William Root

                        Rdsesc

                        As a contractor that depends upon military spending for the majority of my business income I can appreciate providing jobs to American workers. However I do not agree with raising the prevailing wage to lure workers to Guam. The military should not be a jobs program. They need to be able to get the best deal on construction possible. Our government needs to get out of the spend top stimulate mentality. We need them to show restraint with our money and cut our taxes. That will stimulate new jobs.

                        Right! Tell it to the families of the servicemen killed in Iraq by contractors who paid as little to their electricians as they could to maximize their profit! How many deaths have been attributed to shoddy work by IBEW electricians in the US? How much are the lives of our troops worth? You bean counters have lost the meaning of pride in a job well done, and only care about how much profit you can squeeze out at the expense of those who do the work. When in reality your only the guy who shuffles the papers between the customer and those who actually build what the customer pays for! Kind of like the health insurance execs who do nothing to cure any sick person, but make billions off those sick people!

                        • 2 votes
                        #2.12 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:14 PM EDT
                        AC RobertsonExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                        The local USMC base in NC is upgrading their family housing. A Australian company received the contract. They are paying the local sub-contractors to do the work. Their pay is about 1/2 to 1/3 of what the locals were being paid 2 years ago...... About the same that was being paid to illegals a year ago, under the table.....

                        A crew leader that supplies; the tools, work platforms, safety gear, and work vehicle, is being paid $18.50-hr with no benefits. The laborers are making around $13.00-hr. They have to pass a background check, green card, initial & random drug/alcohol screening, and the crew leader/sub-contractor has to have a million dollar liability insurance policy on his vehicles.

                        They can not find enough competent workers to fill the need. But they refuse to pay more or pay for OT work. I expect to see Asian imported works, showing up any day now.... The average Asian worker pays the foreign head hunter, almost $5,000.00 up-front, to receive a job. This includes the Visa & Plane tickets, plus a cut of their wages. My wife has two brothers driving trucks, that had to pay this, and they are currently working in Libya.

                        A skilled US worker can not afford to work and supply the need equipment, plus jump-through all the hoops it takes to work on a military base. At these wage scales. Especially when it is only a year or two job, plus there is no job security or benefits...... People are doing this work that can not; read a English tape measure, understand basic building practices, or read a blueprint. Much less know what the safety and building codes are...

                        Importing workers to do work promotes SLAVE LABOR & WAGES and only drives down the local wage scales and lowers the quality of work received.........

                        • 3 votes
                        #2.13 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:17 PM EDT
                        sid-524385

                        Son of Lib, its people like you who have the carpenters still making money in the teens when all the other trades are making money in 20's plus benefits . THANKS, from a carpenter in idaho.

                        • 1 vote
                        #2.14 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:23 PM EDT
                        Jean-721732

                        Sven,

                        What?! Don't give me that high and mighty union crap.

                        I am just saying that our union trade is bar none to any other standards in the world. We are the leader.

                        Shame that you use this one, if true incident to make your case regarding the union vs non union.

                          #2.15 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:31 PM EDT
                          bore-head007

                          The UAw is the standard for uninformed peoples beliefs.Corporate America has poluted the opinions of thepublic as far as the unions go.Corporate America is the real villain for blaming theunions for thierown short commings.We constantly are reminded of thier greed whenever there is a news article about compansationand unearned bonuses.To blame some poor slob that has a union job to take the heat off of themselves and thier cronies has caused a class war amongst ourselves.American labor,union or non union,is what has built this country and the corporations have done a damn good job of wrecking it.

                          • 1 vote
                          #2.16 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:35 PM EDT
                          Love America-1349918

                          Paul Lucero:

                          Do you know why the Japanese want us out of their country?.

                          They are afraid North Korea will attack them with Nuclear Missiles,, and the United States won't respond. They will have to take on this War themselves. Believe me, the Japanese are fighters.

                          • 2 votes
                          #2.17 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:48 PM EDT
                          PDub

                          Conservatives and the uninformed are railing against the unions for participating in the tactics that the executives at major corporations have mastered over the years. Why shouldn't the workers fight for what they think they deserve while the executives simply just give it to themselves.

                            #2.18 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:29 PM EDT
                            D H-1102739

                            Hey you Idiots!, that think carpenters are expensive labors, think again!!

                            You've been on too many jobsites with illegals! and haven't seen the lone master carpenter doing all the layouts and timing of the project! DUH!!

                            And the carpenters that will work for 10-12 dollars are not carpenters!!

                            If we are building JUngle bunny huts then hire jungle bunnys!

                            If we are building structures for the safety and comfort of our american contractors and military personal then hire americans!

                            Lots of people can drive a vehicle! but can't diagnose and repair a vehicle!

                            YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

                            Any further explanations needed means you are under the age of 50!!!

                            A BUNCH of COMPUTER NERDS!

                              #2.19 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 7:47 PM EDT
                              theotherguy1234

                              Many people are confusing a master carpenter with a laborer. In any major construction project you DO NOT NEED hundreds of master carpenters. You need a few at most to oversee a bunch of laborers who do the actual grunt work. It doesn't take much skill to hammer a nair, or cut a board. It DOES take skill to design buildings and supports. This applies to almost all trades. With the exceptions being possible plumbers and electricians, but you rarely need those guy's en'masse.

                              As for the wages paid, that totally depends on the supply / demand of economics. If US citizens won't do the work for the price, then find someone who will. The US worker is the cause of the death of US manufacturing, and its slowly becomeing the death of all work in the US. 50%+ of the population are not entitled to the top 10% of the jobs. Not everyone will have a high paying management job, not everyone will get ANY high paying job period.

                              • 2 votes
                              #2.20 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 8:49 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              jeff--1281069

                              why do we need a base in guam anyway... crazy whos gonna attack us from sea??? the north koreans in a plasytic sub??? its just crazy.. they should put that base in california or hawaii

                                Reply#3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:19 AM EDT
                                hilobamacaine

                                another milatary strategist checks in,go back to playing master of warcraft or whatever the hell you have on your exbox

                                • 2 votes
                                #3.1 - Tue Oct 6, 2009 10:30 PM EDT
                                Reply
                                afloatinasea

                                When will there be money available (loans) available to allow small businesses to expand their operations? We need jobs in the private sector not solely in the public sector.

                                • 6 votes
                                Reply#4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:26 AM EDT
                                Patrick McCarthy

                                The government will back up the clout banks well before backing up CIT, the largest small buisness lender in America. Thier priorities are all f,,,,, up

                                Kefdog the plumber

                                • 2 votes
                                #4.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:34 AM EDT
                                Chuck_454

                                Something like this creates scads of private sector jobs.

                                  #4.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:05 AM EDT
                                  leanderm

                                  That goes for every job sector, how many jobs have been lost to India with offshore support?  Our gov. is selling out.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #4.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:09 PM EDT
                                  Love America-1349918

                                  With all the outsourcing of jobs here, now possibly Guam, we have to save money. It is a good idea.

                                  Only good, because we have a President who is spending Trillions of dollars to advance the cause of ACORN, and the like, buying out Corporations for the Government to own. Where are the dollars? Where is the money? Where is there Accountability. What is this Guam project about. President Obama kept this one quiet. He knows he's in the kitchen with Americans and feeling the heat.

                                  A spendthrift President, who doesn't have a clue as to making jobs for the Americans. Somehow, this Plan will get messed up, too. The jobs will go to Foreigners.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #4.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:27 PM EDT
                                  DeeToo

                                  A poster here named Usta be Proud - cited facts no one here even seems to notice - I commend that person, and they said it so well, I'm copying it here. Usta - hope you don't mind....

                                  Given that there are only 192 countries in the United Nations, 761 foreign US bases is a remarkable example of imperial overstretch—even more so considering that official military reports understate the actual size of the US footprint. (The official figures omit espionage bases, those located in war zones, including Iraq and Afghanistan, and miscellaneous facilities in places considered too sensitive to discuss or which the Pentagon for its own reasons chooses to exclude—e.g. in Israel, Kosovo, or Jordan.)

                                  To garrison its empire, as of last December, the United States had 510,927 service personnel (including sailors afloat) deployed in 151 foreign countries. This includes some 196,600 fighting in Iraq and 25,700 in Afghanistan.

                                  In fact, the purpose of our overseas bases is to maintain US dominance in the world, and to reinforce what military analyst Charles Maier calls our "empire of consumption." The United States possesses less than 5 percent of global population but consumes about one-quarter of all global resources, including petroleum. Our empire exists so we can exploit a much greater share of the world's wealth than we are entitled to, and to prevent other nations from combining against us to take their rightful share.

                                  Oh yeah, the US needs more and bigger bases!

                                  WHY ARE WE EVEN DISCUSSING MORE BASES WHEN WE CAN'T AFFORD BASICS HERE AT HOME??????

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #4.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:17 PM EDT
                                  I'm Ringo

                                  "WHY ARE WE EVEN DISCUSSING MORE BASES WHEN WE CAN'T AFFORD BASICS HERE AT HOME??????"

                                  It doesn't seem that you are looking at the same topic. We are looking at FEWER bases, and you're complaining.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #4.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:55 PM EDT
                                  PDub

                                  Guam is not a new base. We are mothballing bases in Japan and relocating to an already established base in Guam. I think condensing would be a good word for what we're doing.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #4.7 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:33 PM EDT
                                  theotherguy1234

                                  DeeToo doesn't know what he's talking about. You used the term "Base" to refer to any and all US military presence which doesn't apply. Most "bases" are very small and work in conjunction with many similiar base's in a location to form a kinda enclave. South Korea for example has over a dozen "base's" by your definition, but only one base is large enough to possess a hospital, the rest share clinics that are spread around. Iraq / Afganistan have dozens of "base's" but most of those are just small command outposts.

                                  The current prevailing trend is to combine smaller base's into larger posts so that they can better share services / facilities. Its typically cheaper to do this but has a higher up-front cost because you gotta build the facilities and hopefully find a good spot with enough land available to do this. Their currently doing this in South Korea with the expansion of Camp Humphreys, which will consolidate many of the smaller base's in the area.

                                  The entire point of having a US base in another country is to project power into the region and act as a deterent for any would-be hitler. Having troops in a general area is enough to prevent any country from attacking that area, no one wants to start a war with the US. This is why many countries actually WANT us to build a base inside their borders. On the outside they criticize us to look strong to their nationalistic population, but under the table their making sure we stay put. In the case of Japan, they STILL want us there, just not the large force that is the 3rd MEF. No one wants a large ground force on their property, but they do want air / naval assets in the local area and a logistic base or two.

                                  Currently the US shoulders a disproportionate amount of the worlds defense needs. Because we're everywhere and have so many base's scattered around, no one else feels the need to have a decent sized military. Very few of our allies have a force strong enough to defend their own country, much less provide for a common defense or some form of offensive operation. Instead they rely on the regional presence of US and signed mutual defense treatys instead.

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #4.8 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:02 PM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  Patrick McCarthy

                                  What ever happened to the Navy Sea Bees,
                                  Wasn't that a branch of the service that used and taught military personel the arts of construction???
                                  When I was young in the 70s I wanted to be a plumber, one of the ways to achieve that goal was to join the Navy Sea Bees, I chose another rought an am now a 34yr master plumber,,
                                  I believe the wages paid to a mititary private learning the trades would make a construction manager blush.

                                  • 13 votes
                                  Reply#5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:28 AM EDT
                                  Lindy888

                                  How can all those big wheels not think of the Sea Bees...Patrick McCarthy has hit the nail right on the head......so so simple.....but...perfect for this situation...problem...I think the workers would have to join the navy....chicken poop Americans of today would not do it............

                                  • 6 votes
                                  #5.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:25 AM EDT
                                  Harry-413088

                                  There are also the Air force RED HORSE troops who do the same type of work as the Sea Bees. Why not combine the two forces?

                                  • 7 votes
                                  #5.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:33 AM EDT
                                  Sichuan

                                  Patrick, Lindy and Harry, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Rational thought and common sense will not be tolerated in this discussion.

                                  • 12 votes
                                  #5.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:11 AM EDT
                                  sled dog

                                  Due to the fact that I haven't been in the Navy for several months (480 months), I'd have no clue how viable the SeaBees idea is. That group (to my recollection) was established to erect temporary structures and runways in areas under fire. The sheer numbers of people needed to do this project would, most likely, overwhelm that group.

                                  As seen by a regular, every day, American guy.......................2 figures are being bandied about as wages, in the story. One ($11.70) is ridiculously low and would only attract foreign labor, and the other ($36.00) is pie in the sky foolish. I spent many years as a construction electrican. I am currently employed in another area. As we have learned in the past few months, ones' employment status can change at any time. If I were to find myself without a job and was offered an opportunity to "strap on the tool belt" once more and go to Guam for 2-3 years, I'd be on the next flight. Keep your umemployment check and give me the job anytime. A realistic wage for attracting AMERICANS to the South Pacific should be about $20.00/hr. It ain't NYC! You can get by nicely, in Guam on $20/hr.

                                  • 8 votes
                                  #5.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
                                  Momus2009

                                  The Seabee's on Guam are busy building one-room shanty schools in the PI and Malaysia. They don't use the Seabee's for projects of this magnitude and in all actuality, I can't recall where they ever used military personnel for projects this big. Now if you need a road built or a quick building, then yeah, but for something like this.....I don't think so.

                                  • 4 votes
                                  #5.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:25 AM EDT
                                  JEREMY-664722

                                  When these wage numbers are talked about, is that with per diem, living arrangements, or "Here's your money. Good luck with food and shelter." ?

                                    #5.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:06 PM EDT
                                    usmcvet5711

                                    I completely agree with sled dog on this. A good wage for going to Guam would be the $20.00 per hour and would attract a ton of construction workers for a 2 year run at a job. Also this project is beyond the sea beas just by the sheer size of the project not the expertise required or the equipment. The sea beas are for quick combat structures not for long term sustained projects although this would be a perfect opportunity for the sea beas to use it as training exercises for their troops. This is one amendment and one area of govt spending that does sit well with me as it is for Americans and most of the wages would go to Americans who pay American taxes and the Japanese are even kicking in 6 billion. Which wold mostly go to Americans who would pay that tax money to America so the govt would get some of that in taxes to.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #5.7 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:12 PM EDT
                                    GregL-671049

                                    The truth is there are very few support troops in the military these days..Every since the down sizing of the military during the Clinton era,the military has had to rely on contractors..We know how people love to hate contractors....

                                    It cost around $2000 round trip to Guam from the east cost at $11.00 per hour that is around four and a half weeks pay for transportation... I can't imagine they pay for your food and lodging either..You would be better off staying here and working in fast food...

                                      #5.8 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:21 PM EDT
                                      JEREMY-664722

                                      If food and lodging is payed (if all American contractors are hired, it probably will be, and $11.00 is probably a laughable wage) then $12-$15 an hour is more than fair. Either way, this project should be put on hold.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #5.9 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:55 PM EDT
                                      martvol

                                      One should also remember $11 will go a lot farther on Guam then it will in Hawaii.

                                        #5.10 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:57 PM EDT
                                        JEREMY-664722

                                        It will, but to the american working sending it back to the states to support a family....

                                        How far will it go then?

                                          #5.11 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:13 PM EDT
                                          darrell-473614

                                          As GregL said, contractors do much/most of the work being discussed now.  Even look at State and County workers.  Much of road work is actually done by contractors rather than the govt workers because it's more cost efficient.

                                          Many on left like to discuss the "no bid" contracts of haliburton and KBR, but the no bid status is simply not correct for huge majority of contracts. Besides, there are only a handful of companies IN THE WORLD that could handle the amount and type of work done in the contracts.      Info on KBR contracts below:

                                          http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpds.php?parent_id=174687&sortby=u&detail=-1&datype=T&reptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

                                            #5.12 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:13 PM EDT
                                            PDub

                                            The downsizing of the military and closing of bases was one of the last bills signed by President Bush (Read my lips/voodoo economics President Bush). President Clinton had the don't ask don't tell.

                                              #5.13 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:42 PM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              J. ROOK

                                               I am all for creating jobs for Americans, but not at such an exhorbitant cost to the taxpayer. Why should some Americans benifit at the cost of the rest of the public who do not. And let's face it, every time the government starts handing out contracts corruption will follow. No more $67.00 "nail insertion devices", more commonly known as hammers!

                                              • 5 votes
                                              Reply#6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:31 AM EDT
                                              Patrick McCarthy

                                              In the age of computers those foibles should be a thing of the past,, $600 toilet seats and so on

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #6.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:36 AM EDT
                                              Chuck_454

                                              Most of these costs are due to the accounting rules created by Congress. You end up with a lot of overhead if you don't buy a lot of something to spread it over.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #6.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:53 AM EDT
                                              GregL-671049

                                              Really, were you for the stimulus plan? How about the cash for clunkers plan? Those two plans did very little to help the laid off workers,but the president got a lot of political capital from his minions....How many laid off Cpas do you know running a back hoe or a jack hammer? I bet none.....

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #6.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:26 PM EDT
                                              bore-head007

                                              Wheres my plane ticket?I'm ready to go!!!

                                                #6.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:14 PM EDT
                                                nurse-1006475

                                                Why are we doing this in the first place? Seems a waste to me when we need $$ spent on infrastructure (and other things) at home! Bring all troops home and spend the money fixing things here.

                                                  #6.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:42 PM EDT
                                                  lk in la

                                                  {"commentId":9882675,"authorDomain":"SonOfLIberty2008"}

                                                  SonOfLliberty2008

                                                  usmcvet has hit a bunch of nails on the head with his comment. Those who hire cheap foreign labor can only expect to see everybody's pay go down, including their own.

                                                  We'll all in this economic boat together folks. :

                                                  SonofLiberty2008 is an example of someone out of everyone who pretends they do, including many politicians, that really understands the science of economics.

                                                    #6.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:56 PM EDT
                                                    spg64-1292127

                                                    Good to see Americans willing to give away our jobs to the Chinese on a military base no less. Why not find a compromise. Lets cut out the middleman contractors like KBR who always take the lions share and use unlicensed foreign labor who do crap work that ends up killing servicemen and women. Let the Government run the project and pay US workers a living wage of say $20 an hour and hire Americans to build American Military bases.That way we can come in at or under budget and not electrocute a bunch of soldiers trying to shower.

                                                      #6.7 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 8:41 PM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      Carl W

                                                      Don't we have overpriced military defense contractors for this sort of thing?

                                                      Pay Blackwater $200/hour per employee, and let them subcontract it out to cheap labor for $5/hour.

                                                      As long as somebody is making money...

                                                      • 5 votes
                                                      Reply#7 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:40 AM EDT
                                                      Gregscan

                                                      Why does the US need troops in Japan (60 years after WWII) or even on Guam in this day and age. Use the money to either reduce the deficeit or to usefully employ Americans in the USA on non-military projects. WE still have troops in Germany and South Korea which can be closed down also.

                                                      • 4 votes
                                                      Reply#8 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:44 AM EDT
                                                      Casino Worker

                                                      They are called out posts. Or deterrents.

                                                      • 3 votes
                                                      #8.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
                                                      ftk1945

                                                      In caase you did not know, Guam is an American territory, Guam is part of the United States, just like Puerto Rico and Hawaii and Alaska were until they became states. The problems I see are why Chinese, Filipino, and Korean workers? Cannot we provide workers? Maybe a version or the CCC or WPA like in the depression. Provide the workers with food, housing, transport. Hire them for a year of two tour with college benefits like the GI's ge at the end of an enlistment.

                                                      • 8 votes
                                                      #8.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:45 AM EDT
                                                      bibol

                                                      You must be a isolationist. No military overseas. We have cut the military and look what we have done. Can not even supply our troops.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #8.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:47 AM EDT
                                                      Lindy888

                                                      who but small business is going to employee people in america....unions that care of the little thought.........will not work....

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #8.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:50 AM EDT
                                                      Lindy888

                                                      we are not there to defind those countrie for early warning and to release missles.....

                                                        #8.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
                                                        Jeff-397806

                                                        Gregscan....You Sir are right on the money. We do not need this base. We also don't need the military in about 130 other countries. Lastly, we do not need to be in Iraq or Afghanistan. We are broke as a country but are still borrowing money and printing money like @!$%# out of a goose.

                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        #8.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:36 AM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        Casino Worker

                                                        I sounds like most of the responses here are missing the point.

                                                        WHY WOULD WE AS U.S. CITIZENS PAY THE WORKERS FROM CHINA , SOUTH KOREA OR THE PHILIPPINE TO DO OUR WORK??

                                                        Don't we have any unemployed workers or homeless people here that wouldn't jump at the chance to work and live in the South Seas and have another chance at a better life?

                                                        We already out source everything under the sun to other countries. Isn't it about time we start working for our country again before WE are out sourced?

                                                        THINK AMERICAN - BE AN AMERICAN. BEFORE IT'S TO LATE.

                                                        • 15 votes
                                                        Reply#9 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:53 AM EDT
                                                        john 528

                                                        Hey Casino Worker, I agree we need to use American workers for this project. However, we don't need to hire some homeless person off the streets to work on complicated electrical, plumbing, or carpentry projects. We need journeymen American workers.

                                                        • 5 votes
                                                        #9.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:25 AM EDT
                                                        Momus2009

                                                        I'll tell you why....Because the average American wouldn't want to go to Guam to work! Plain and simple. I was stationed there for a couple of years around the turn of the century and if it's one thing I can tell you about Guam, although I LOVED the island, most people from the mainland can't take being that isolated, especially when the typhoons roll through!

                                                        • 8 votes
                                                        #9.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:30 AM EDT
                                                        JEREMY-664722

                                                        We really don' need anything extravagant there anyway. But why should it cost taxpayers, probably, on the average of $100 dollars an hour when it could only cost $10?

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #9.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:12 PM EDT
                                                        lk in la

                                                        John 528 your attitude, common among Americans now, exemplifies one reason why this country will no longer acheive economic stablility.

                                                          #9.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:11 PM EDT
                                                          Reply
                                                          florina

                                                          By most accounts, Guam is a resort island for military personnel. Officers and enlisted persons get treated to some of the best meals and forms of entertainment. I wouldn't be surprised that the new construction includes casinos, championship golf courses, theaters and stadiums and more tourists attractions. What a waste of taxpayer money trying to hide all this spending and calling it a defense bill. It has nothing to do with defense of Japan or our own shores.

                                                          • 4 votes
                                                          #10 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:11 AM EDT
                                                          Casino Worker

                                                          Maybe this could be turned into something else for american people called JOBS.

                                                          • 6 votes
                                                          #10.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:17 AM EDT
                                                          ftk1945

                                                          You have never been to Guam have you? Go there then tell us about how great it is. I've been there.

                                                          • 4 votes
                                                          #10.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:48 AM EDT
                                                          florina

                                                          You want jobs! Deport the illegals. Right there is 10 million jobs they have taken from American workers.

                                                          • 6 votes
                                                          #10.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:52 AM EDT
                                                          notbornyesterday-359530

                                                          Florina--Have you been to Guam? Do you know anyone who has been there? You are very naive--and it is NOT a waste of money to improve our military bases, nor is it a "resort" as you think. You must be very uninformed about the United States Armed Forces and what they do!

                                                          • 5 votes
                                                          #10.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:53 AM EDT
                                                          florinaExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                                                          Notbornyet: Yes, I know what our armed forces do. They protect us from Canadians whose desire is to paddle their canoes through the St. Lawrence seaway and take over our beloved land. Ha! HA! What the fuk are we doing on Guam? WWll has been over for 60 years.

                                                          • 2 votes
                                                          #10.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:17 AM EDT
                                                          Momus2009

                                                          florina, you are the epitome of what America has become. HAVE YOU EVER STEPPED FOOT OUTSIDE OF YOUR OWN COUNTY? You obviously have never been to Guam, so please do us all a favor and keep your meat-trap shut!

                                                          • 7 votes
                                                          #10.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:32 AM EDT
                                                          Bernie-548913

                                                          florina: The bases in Guam, South Korea & Hawaii are all thats between mainland US and Communist China. Its called a deterrent, but a dumb f... like you doesn't know any better than to make a stupid comment about Canada.

                                                          • 5 votes
                                                          #10.7 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:34 AM EDT
                                                          keck

                                                          florina is obviously stupid, Guam is a territory of america, with two large bases, and perfect for expansion.

                                                          • 2 votes
                                                          #10.8 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:09 PM EDT
                                                          JEREMY-664722

                                                          Deterrent? Ha.... If China wanted to attack us.... Guam wouldn't stop them.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #10.9 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:16 PM EDT
                                                          GregL-671049

                                                          JEREMY-664722,

                                                          Want to bet? Chinese bleed the same way we do...I don't care how many of them there is they are no match for our military...If they were don't you suppose they would have attacked those island by now? They know we would kick there butt's.... Take the nuke's out of the equation and we have the the best trained and best outfitted military in the world...

                                                          Believe me when i say they fear us..

                                                          • 4 votes
                                                          #10.10 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:36 PM EDT
                                                          JEREMY-664722

                                                          I never said we didn't stand a chance against China. We just can't put enough firepower there to stop them if tried. In case you haven't noticed.... China is in the business of making money, not fighting. "Take the nuke's out of the equation....." Tell them that before they attack( not that they ever would).

                                                            #10.11 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:49 PM EDT
                                                            Mark-338347

                                                            I did three years in Guam. Resort? Not even close. Deterrent? You bet your ass. All you bastards that sit on here a run your mouth; having never done a damn thing for your country, can kiss mine.  

                                                            Jeremy, brush up some before you open your mouth. It's not Guam that would stop them, it's what is on Guam that will stop them. 

                                                            Florina, you are an idiot. Enlist, do a tour and then come around talking.

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #10.12 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                                                            Nancy -993682

                                                            Wouldn't the fact that China is our largest creditor nation be a deterrent to them?

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #10.13 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:58 PM EDT
                                                            JEREMY-664722

                                                            Mark..... So everything "on" Guam could stop an attack from that direction?

                                                              #10.14 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:30 PM EDT
                                                              Are you awake yet?

                                                              Not if they decide that it's time to forclose.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #10.15 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:42 PM EDT
                                                              florinaDeleted
                                                              Reply
                                                              Amanda B Reckonwith

                                                              Casino worker - look at a map. See where Guam is located? China, South Korea and the Phillipines are close to Guam. USA, not.

                                                              This project is a needed base expansion in an area of the world where Al Quaida is expanding. Trebling the labor cost would take away money from other defense spending that is critical to keep us safe from terrorists as we have been for the past 7 years. It would be a typical democrat ploy to fork over tons of cash to union workers and cut money for armament. That is how we ended up having to go to Afghanistan without enough armored Hum Vees, the Clinton administration chopped military spending.

                                                              I know, facts are no fun for democrats.

                                                              • 5 votes
                                                              Reply#11 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:15 AM EDT
                                                              Casino Worker

                                                              I'm sorry you have the impression I am a democrat, which I AM NOT. But if we are going to build a base in Guam lets use unemployed AMERICANS an HOMELESS AMERICANS!

                                                              • 9 votes
                                                              #11.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:22 AM EDT
                                                              H-D-78109

                                                              Hey Amanda, get a grip. The last time I looked it was called guam USA not china, philppines or anything else. We should be using americans for american projects only filing jobs as needed by foreign workers as needed, not using americans as needed.

                                                              And no, Clinton is not the reason for us not having armor for our vehicles when going to war, war was declared by the "W" presidency. And no, I am not a dem. I don't take sides when it comes to whom I elect. I was in the military and I am a disabled vet so I don't want to hear that "you don't know nothing attitude from you either"

                                                              When we were forced to go into these wars, the presidents so-called advisors had no clue what we were up against because of bad intel...an oxymoron. Bad info is bad info no matter how inteligent the person is that gets it. The goverment relied on the wrong people to get info from and that is as dumb as it gets. They also didn't listen to the 1 man who knew the truth and resigned later (I won't disrespect him with mention here).

                                                              So get off the "we should use them because they are closer crap", this is an american project not a foreign project. Just in case you want to know, all of the countries mentioned have terrorists in them that would also like to have them jobs so they could also blow up our military men and women....so think about that

                                                              • 8 votes
                                                              #11.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:09 AM EDT
                                                              SonOfLliberty2008

                                                              Amanda, evidently you only want to go after Middle Eastern terrorists. Indonesia has the largest muslim population in the world. A US serviceman was killed in the Philippines just the other day in a terrorist related attack.

                                                              I wasn't aware that Mr Bush, the rocket scientist that attacked Afghanistan and Iraq was a Democrat.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #11.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:19 PM EDT
                                                              bore-head007

                                                              HD Thank you for serving our country.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #11.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:49 PM EDT
                                                              Reply
                                                              rmc357

                                                              They want to raise the pay to 36. an hour I would bet any amount of money that if the military was to ask they could get thousands of us workers to move to guam for 20 an hour solve two problems at once boost the Guam economy and put us workers back to work

                                                              • 6 votes
                                                              Reply#12 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:16 AM EDT
                                                              bore-head007

                                                              Twenty buck's and perdiem,I'm ready!

                                                                #12.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:50 PM EDT
                                                                AC Robertson

                                                                rmc357,

                                                                How many US construction workers have a US Passport? With the physical, shots required, personnel transportation, and shipping of the required equipment, you are looking at thousands of dollars........... Just to work a $20.00-hr job with no benefits or job security. Plus, being separated from family & paying for two households and needed transportation.

                                                                Bore-head,

                                                                Do you have the Passport and experiance, then go for it...... Oh yea, random drug and alcohol screening is the norm on a military base....... plus a clean criminal record........

                                                                  #12.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:02 PM EDT
                                                                  lk in la

                                                                  rmc357

                                                                  They want to raise the pay to 36. an hour I would bet any amount of money that if the military was to ask they could get thousands of us workers to move to guam for 20 an hour solve two problems at once boost the Guam economy and put us workers back to work :

                                                                  And its a damnable shame that no one will be asking.

                                                                    #12.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:23 PM EDT
                                                                    bore-head007

                                                                    So ,AC,Does one need a passport to go to puerto rico,hawaii?Do'nt think so.Guam ? same thing.Thanks for laying out all of the stumbling blocks for me!I have the experienceHeavy equipment operator since 1984.Proficient on all excavation equipment with the exceptionof road graders.Passed every drug screening I've ever been tested for,and have no criminal record.I'm single and could have my stuff stored in a couple of days.My kids are grown and on thier own.Yor comments lead me to believe that the construction field is full of drug addicts and criminals in your opinion.Your insinuation's are insulting to me.

                                                                      #12.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:40 PM EDT
                                                                      rmc357

                                                                      A C If you knew anything, goverment contracters are treated very well. Im not sure you need a passport for guam. and with millions of people out of work seems to me it would be good for everyone involved. As far as job security IF YOU DONT HAVE A JOB NOW, NOTHING IS SECURE now is it, now does it not BENEFIT you to be making that 20. hr. I do not wish to insult you but maybe you should think before you type.

                                                                        #12.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:02 PM EDT
                                                                        jawshoeaw

                                                                        Seriously, $20 and per diem puts me in the Pacific right now. But $36 is better and remember where all that $36/hr goes. Not into the pockets of the rich, but into the pockets of the working poor/middle class who then pay a big chunk in taxes and spend the rest boosting the economy. Even the fat cats who will get rich off military overspending still pay the money back into the economy.

                                                                        Before you slam "wasteful government spending" take an economics class. The more wasteful the spending the more money is injected into the economy. I'm not advocating waste - maybe more could be done with the same money to alleviate suffering in the US - but "waste" is a weak argument economically. It's wasteful to spend one penny on goods made in China or oil pumped out of a foreign country because some of that penny is gone forever from the US economy. Imagine if the military on Guam or anywhere else in US territory, was barred from burning any fossil fuels not extracted from the US. They would pay more for the fuel, but so what. The money would go to US companies who hire US workers. Nice closed loop. What if you paid $10 a gallon to fill up your tank because we didn't buy foreign oil? Imagine the path of that $10 - it comes back to your own wallet eventually (averaged out over the whole population of course)

                                                                        I say, continue to spend on the military at current levels and require military servicemen/women to do public service part of the time (it's good training). Everyone earning a check from the military is essentially living a little bit on welfare - they produce no goods, provide an intangible service that is difficult to prove but still necessary (defense), and always operate at a huge loss. So give back a little of your money as public servants that everyone can appreciate. I have great respect for what the military does, in part because I don't have to do it myself, but I think that respect would spread if people in every town in America saw our bridges repaired, our neighborhoods rejuvenated, and law enforcement boosted by military volunteers.

                                                                          #12.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:10 PM EDT
                                                                          AC Robertson

                                                                          Bore-head,

                                                                          If you depart the USA you have to have a Passport. Unless you are traveling directly to or from a US territory. DHS changed the regulations concerning Passports 31Jan08.........

                                                                          I have never failed any drug test, either. But unfortunately on many of the construction sites I have worked on, drug use and a legal problems are common...... The good thing, the higher you work off of the ground, fewer people seem to have these problems. Ten+ story commercial buildings are where it starts getting fun.... Ha! Ha!

                                                                          Good luck on the job hunting. High tech electrical/mechanical installations and maintenance is where I'm working now.......

                                                                          rmc357,

                                                                          The government pays the CONTRACTORS well, but contracts are awarded to the low bidders. The Contractors pay sub-contractors what the local economy will allow. Unless they are Foreign Companies, then they set wages by what the world labor market pays.............. I have worked on the bases as Active Duty and for Contractors. Try it sometime, extensive safety regulations, full-time on-site government inspectors, special regulations that apply ONLY on a Federal Installation, restrictions on working hours, and that is usually just the start. Ha! Ha!

                                                                          And yes I have worked in foreign countries also. If you have the experience and the skills/knowledge to do a job, why would you work for SLAVE RATES??????? Before you apply for a position, ensure you know what the local pay rates are, DO NOT let the company short-change you.......... If you accept low pay, you are hurting yourself and those workers around you.....

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #12.7 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:12 PM EDT
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          cyfi

                                                                          Another Union Lackey politician running up the costs by forcing a union scale. While normally I would push for Americans to get the jobs, this is one time common sense tell you we can't afford adding billions on to a project, so the Democrats can look good to their union bosses.

                                                                          If the Democrats are so concerned about job creation why did they only give 1/2 of 1% of the stimulus money to small business programs? Small businesses create 75% of the new jobs in this country. Why are the Democrats forcing federal spending to go to union companies or collect union fees from non union workers? Where does it say in the Constitution the Democrats are there to force people to pay money to their union bosses? Does anyone believe that is going to create new jobs? The Democrats are talking out both sides of their mouth and the unemployed are paying the price, just like poor American kids watching our tax dollars go to educating illegals. There are so many NC kids falling through the cracks of our union teacher schools, who would love to go to community college or our Universities.

                                                                          Just last week in NC the Board of Colleges voted to accept illegals to attend our school if they pay out of state tuition. Even if they pay out of state tuition, we are still subsidizing their education by $10,000/yr, the money should go to needy NC kids whose parents have been paying taxes all their lives and some of them have served in the military. This pro illegal and anti American children policies of the Democrats are treason. They swear an oath to put us first but Americans are last on the list with the Democrats unless you are union member or some special interest group supporting the Democrats. WHEN ARE AVERAGE AMERICANS GOING TO COUNT FIRST? The Democrats are telling Americans to sit at the back of the bus. We need a new political party in this country, neither party is looking after average Americans!

                                                                          • 8 votes
                                                                          Reply#13 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:31 AM EDT
                                                                          Aimhigh

                                                                          cyfi....

                                                                          I agree with you on many of your points laid out in your post except for your last sentence. ....No new political party needed as this only splits voters remember Ross Perout (not sure of spelling) and we got Clinton. How about If we the people endorse and vote for candidates who agreed with what we wanted and if they were willing to sign a contract with their voters . Say we present them with this contract let them know they will be held accountable and if they break the contract we will sue them into the stone age. There are several contracts floating around one that sticks out I think is called something like" Get Out Of Our House" I've heard the author on a couple talk shows but haven't had a chance to read the contract. Check it out from your post I'say you are pretty savvy you could adjust and refine as needed.

                                                                          We have to hold these egomaniacs to some standard no matter what level of Government. We elect them there to represents us instead they get elected and decide to become gentlemen politicians compromising all our principles and only remembering who brought them to the dance when its time to be reelected.

                                                                            #13.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:23 PM EDT
                                                                            Jim Friedl

                                                                            Your great republicans had their chance to run the show and blew it big time. Sat with a thumb in their asses and let us be attacked. Then sold the country a load of @!$%# that Iraq was responsible, now has us fighting two wars, ran up six trillion in debt and put the economy in the crapper and sold us out to China. It will take sometime to undo the damage they have done to the country

                                                                              #13.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:37 PM EDT
                                                                              Love America-1349918

                                                                              Jim: Look in your own back yard. It was the Liberals ignnoring Osama Bin Laden and the Terrorists groups, cells in the US who are responsible for what is happening today in Afghanistan and Iraq..

                                                                              I will list for you the Terrorist Bombings under Bill Clinton's watch and Presidency:

                                                                              l. 1993 the first bombing of the Twin Towers, killing 6 people, injuring, 1,000. (I was in New York on that day near the Towers) (Terrorists)

                                                                              2. 1995 Bombing in Saudi Arabia killing Military Personnel. (Terrorists)

                                                                              3. 1996 al-Kobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia. (Terrorists)

                                                                              4. 1998 bombing of the US Embassies in Africa, 257 kill, 5,000 injured. (Terrorists)

                                                                              5. 2000, The USS Cole Bombing killing 17, in which Bill Clinton promised to hunt down the Terrorist. (Terrorists)

                                                                              Tell me, who inherited the Terrorist Wars? It was George W. Bush. He did a mighty good job of tackling the issues, 9/11, the Pentagon. dealing with War declared upon the United States by the Terrorists from the Middle East.

                                                                              Clinton had Osama Bin Laden in the palm of his hands, He knew exactly where he was. What happened? Clinton and most Liberals do not want to face the ugliness of War. War is for Presidents. War is for tough Presidents, who face the reality of the imminent demise of the United States which is still here. George Bush kept us safe for 8 years. What will Obama do?

                                                                              Now we have Pres. Obama, who is way behind Bill Clinton in making solid decisions.. He doesn't want to deal with War or Terrorism at all.

                                                                              Wasn't George Bush one of the best Presidents?. Yes indeed, He stood tough and demanded respect, except from the weak Liberals who made his life and Presidential Terms miserable. He was too strong in character for you. Children at play with Politics. Idealists, Ideology.

                                                                              Your President now is called a PAPER TIGER! We can see his stripes!

                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                              #13.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:16 PM EDT
                                                                              Love America-1349918

                                                                              A summation for the number of deaths while Bill Clinton was President, after the Terrorist Attacks. Look under Terrorist Attacks during the Presidency of Bill Clinton on Search..

                                                                              7,000 people were killed..

                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                              #13.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:51 PM EDT
                                                                              1NewDay

                                                                              cyfi,
                                                                              Your bolded comments sound a whole lot like direct Glen Beck quotes. Your message came through pretty clear in your first two sentences and beyond that your post was off topic. I'd love to debate some of your other statements but they are irrelevant rhetoric outside this topic.

                                                                              So we can conclude that you're all for taxpayer dollars going back into taxpayer hands, unless those hands are somehow associated with Unions. In that case you'd much rather give the money to citizens of Indonesian countries, many of which by the way have very active anti-American terrorist movements. Very patriotic attitude you have there.

                                                                              The issue at hand is whether or not we use foreign workers to theoretically reduce costs or we try to use American workers first. You'll note I used the term "theoretically". That's because I have some knowledge about these kinds of foreign sub-contracted projects. The only people who will benefit are the companies that essentially have a blank check to run the project. I can assure you that many more labor hours would be used than American tradesmen hours for the same work. The labor mark up means more hours equals more profit. Quality of work is a real issue. I might mention too that this is a US military base and there are a variety of security concerns. Ever hear about the US embassy in Russia? You'd trust a would-be Al Qaeda operative/sympathizer more than a hardcore, flag waving American Union construction worker? Somebody who might be a Democrat is worse than somebody that might be a terrorist? You've got your loyalties confused.

                                                                              Labor rates on this size job are negotiable, even with Unions and you have to look at the whole package including housing, food and living expenses. Typically with foreign workers, it's all in their package which still ends up being a project cost. For US trades it's usually all on the tradesman, sometimes a per diem could be negotiated. Bottom line you need to analyze total cost not just a quoted labor rate. Efficiency and total hours are another key factor in the total cost.

                                                                              True this may have surfaced because of someones political aspirations, however it points out a real issue. I don't want to see tax dollars wasted, but if there's some graft involved, and you can be sure there will, I rather see it go to Americans than foreigners. There's at least a chance of holding the American accountable. If cost is the only concern we should be buying all our weapons from China. I'm guessing you wouldn't support that. Should we pay our troops based on wage rates in the area they are serving in? Should we contract out our military security to people from the region because they're cheaper?

                                                                              To me this is a no-brainer. American tax dollars - American workers! Not a blank check, but a fair wage. This is possible and even if it's not the lowest cost there's payback in that those wages will go back into our economy.

                                                                                #13.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 6:15 PM EDT
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                willie-749103

                                                                                Neil is running for Governor of Hawaii...he is buying the votes of his best supporters, union construction workers. If this was HIS money would he be so swift to spend much more than was needed to get the job done? Flying workers from Hawaii to Guam is about the same distance as flying them to Kansas....any pet projects in Kansas you want them to build at twice the cost Neil. How many of those Hawaiian workers will go out on strike for one reason or another adding even MORE to the cost of the project? Get it done, get it done for the lowest price and QUIT wasting OUR money on buying votes.

                                                                                Folks like the congressman need to be shown the door and OUR checkbook taken from them.....

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                Reply#14 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:32 AM EDT
                                                                                lk in la

                                                                                Are you a contractor?

                                                                                  #14.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:26 PM EDT
                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                  H-D-78109

                                                                                  I personally don't give a damn about what the project is for, or what country it is closer to, if it is for an american military base employ americans first. I don't think this should be by Hawaii pay standards and stop bashing unions (no I don't work in the constuction world). Unions are the reason we have labor laws! They are the reason you have a place to turn to when you get hurt and still be able to get paid when you get hurt on the job.

                                                                                  I think the project should first seek workers who are from the U S, either citizens or green card holders that are allowed to work under thier status (some are not). Wages should be adjusted to what is allowed by standards in the U S, even if it means $12 per hour. We have military aircraft that can bring the workers to Guam that would keep cost down (it is expensive to fly to Guam from the U S).

                                                                                  But, from what I am reading here most miss the point. U S workers are tired of our goverment suplementing the wages of other countries and should be thinking of home first.

                                                                                  Most people should be looking at this as the following .... Your job could be the next one to go because our goverment decided to use out of country workers because they only had to pay them $5 per hour insted of paying you $5.50. So remember that when you start bashing unions, or when you start bashing the senator or congressman for trying to keep your job (regardless of thier alterior motive)

                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                  Reply#15 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:38 AM EDT
                                                                                  Aimhigh

                                                                                  Unions have cause the demise of many industries.... Believing that they have done only good is nice but ,with their greed it has lead to killing the goose that lays the golden egg. Look at the steel, lumber or luxury items the boating and airline industry ...not to mention the auto industry it too will die if we keep on this trend..

                                                                                  A carpenter for $36 per hour is nuts. No matter where they are from. That will make me and most people I know rent a few books from the library tools from the big box stores and do everything ourselves what we cannot do we will barter. These tradesmen/union members will soon realize they have priced themselves out of the market .

                                                                                  American jobs for Americans not for all other peoples. Still, not because it is being Federally funded should we be squandering tax payers money.

                                                                                  Be reasonable... not every carpenter or tradesman is a msaster whatever. and not everyone of them will be worth more than $15. per hour

                                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                                  #15.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:45 PM EDT
                                                                                  bore-head007

                                                                                  The union's are here because the workers banded together against the management of company's that preyed on the workers through unsafe practices,strong arm tactic's and the belief that the worker's were slaves that should do whatever the company store said they should.Every worker in america benefit's because of union's.If it was'nt for them everybody would earn minimum wage.The construction union's are why there is a prevailing wage.through thier negotiation'sTthe prevailing is used so non union company's can bid for job's on an equal playing field.It's alway's convieniant to blame the union worker's for the high prices of thing's like car's but,looking at what corporate is doing to the country,the union's are not the problem.I think most union worker's are like all of us.They want to earn a living,have a vacation once in a while,desent medical,pay a mortgage,and get that education for thier kid's.As far as paying tuition,thier kids probably don't qualify for student aid or pell grants.They earn enough to pay for tuition.What a concept!Not going to the trough for educationa funding.

                                                                                    #15.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:19 PM EDT
                                                                                    jawshoeaw

                                                                                    Ridiculous to blame the unions for jobs moving overseas. As long as the powers that be allow cheap imports to flood in, companies had no choice but to move overseas or go out of business. How this was not obvious I don't know but it seems like high-school economics. What was a steel mill supposed to do, pay their workers what the Chinese pay their workers???? Are you insane. The unions kept asking for more money, probably stupid in retrospect but really even if they had never asked for more than cost of living increase, the same thing would have happened. Companies would have moved overseas unless they could stop paying any healthcare, any 401K, and anything over about $1 an hour.

                                                                                      #15.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:15 PM EDT
                                                                                      H-D-78109

                                                                                      I believe you both have it right. We the people elected the morons who gave taxbreaks to these companies that allowed them to move more work overseas, and we are still allowing it to happen. You can blame whoever you want reps or dems, it doesn't make any difference, they both let it happen.

                                                                                      Sometimes unions do go too far but they are trying to ensure that the workers are treated fairly. For the recoed...I have never met a carpenter that made $37 per hr. The auto techs I know (including the ones that work on my car/trk, don't make $80 per hr either. The dealerships however do charge more than $100 per hour to work on your car. You also get charged that money even if it takes the tech 15 minutes to do the work....it is called bookhours I think (whatever the manufacturer says it takes to do the job)

                                                                                        #15.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:31 PM EDT
                                                                                        Love America-1349918

                                                                                        There is something fishy about the Guam deal. Why is this subject just coming up now?

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #15.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:50 PM EDT
                                                                                        bore-head007

                                                                                        In my area of the country union carpentrs get $28 per hour.A good livable wage$40-$45thousand per year for skilled labor.Take away 1/3 for taxes.

                                                                                          #15.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:53 PM EDT
                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                          Graeflded

                                                                                          It's our money; we should be able to stipulate how to whom it will be spent and paid to. If US workers need the jobs, our tax dollars should go to them first, union or not. Screw the foriegn workers, let their governments find them work.

                                                                                          • 4 votes
                                                                                          Reply#16 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:39 AM EDT
                                                                                          willie-749103

                                                                                          I agree, but no additional funds should be allocated just to pay for union workers to come in from Hawaii to do the job...period. Anyone wanting to work for the prevailing wage, here is a job with priority for US citizens first.

                                                                                          • 5 votes
                                                                                          #16.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:51 AM EDT
                                                                                          usmcvet5711

                                                                                          willie I fully believe that this project should be completed with 100% American workers and no foreign workers at all and they should make a better wage. About $20.00 per hour would be a fair wage that would attract all kinds of American workers not just union workers. If we are going to spend funds then spend them on Americans but dont expect them to work for scab wages. The gov of Guam is afraid that if they pay Americans higher wages then the workers in Guam would actually expect to be paid a fair wage too. Higher wages for the construction of this base would mean more money spent in guam and would like the economy.

                                                                                            #16.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:39 PM EDT
                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                            jjsjedidiah

                                                                                            this is so like the libs to tear up the military. They dont say anything about giant government expansion and over reach except when it is concerning the military. bunch of lying american hating libs in the government controlled media.

                                                                                              Reply#17 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:46 AM EDT
                                                                                              H-D-78109

                                                                                              Go back to the country you came from A$$HOLE. If you have nothing good to contribute f--koff

                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                              #17.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:55 AM EDT
                                                                                              Sichuan

                                                                                              "this is so like the libs to tear up the military"

                                                                                              Bull@!$%#! That line is so old.

                                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                                              #17.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:18 AM EDT
                                                                                              Casino Worker

                                                                                              jjsjedidiah - You sure don't talk like an American and you sure don't talk like someone who cares about the American way of life, speaking of life why don't YOU get one!

                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                              #17.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:29 PM EDT
                                                                                              martvol

                                                                                              H-D

                                                                                              Please disregard one of your votes. I hit it by mistake labeling you inflammatory.

                                                                                                #17.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:08 PM EDT
                                                                                                H-D-78109

                                                                                                Don't sweat it, I never take anything personnaly. We are all using our right to free speach. I could tell the originator of this message is not one of us.

                                                                                                  #17.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                                                                                                  martvol

                                                                                                  Sadly. Free speech does NOT apply to this blog. The owner and his/her appointees can and do censor posts. You, nor I, have "FREE" speech on this blog. Please, try to be kinder.

                                                                                                    #17.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:29 PM EDT
                                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                                    b m

                                                                                                    how clever of our increasingly braindead military decision makers to let Chinese and other 'foreign' workers anywhere close to one of our military bases!! Why don't we just invite a few Taliban to look at the blueprints also?

                                                                                                      Reply#18 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:47 AM EDT
                                                                                                      notbornyesterday-359530

                                                                                                      It would be unthinkable to hire foreign workers instead of Americans to fill the construction jobs! WE need to do the best thing for our country and its citizens. Let me get this straight: We "bail out" CEO's, Banks, Wall Street and other assorted parasites, --with NOTHING given in return---yet we don't want to hire Americans who will WORK and EARN the pay, because it would "cost" too much????

                                                                                                      Oh, so the "Contractors" don't like it, aay??? Well, that is tough sh** ! We the people are paying the tab---and we, the people shall say who gets hired! Kick those contractors' fuc**** asses out of Guam--the ones who want "cheap scab labor" so they can "pocket" more money for themselves! They are traitors to out country.

                                                                                                      As Graeflded above said."Screw the foreign scabs!"

                                                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                                                      Reply#19 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:48 AM EDT
                                                                                                      getnafterit

                                                                                                      I say let's add a buy American AND a built by American clauses into the contracts.

                                                                                                      The saying, "Keep it in the family", comes to mind, too.

                                                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                                                      #19.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:12 AM EDT
                                                                                                      Casino Worker

                                                                                                      By GOD your right. Give OUR Americans the jobs.

                                                                                                      I know of thousand's of unemployed plumbers, and construction workers who would jump at the chance to FEED their families and work in Guam to do it. Most of them would gladly live in tent cities (the same as they did when Hover Dam was built) just to support their families. Give Americans the chance, let's pull our country together on this!

                                                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                                                      #19.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:39 PM EDT
                                                                                                      Love America-1349918

                                                                                                      It's all about about cost and saving the Americans from paying more taxes.

                                                                                                      To outsource is reasonable, because the Government is saving money, and our taxes "should" be lower. What about getting back to real business. He's shut down just about everything there is in a downtown, with his Economics or therefore lack of knowlege of how to run a business. If one hasn't never worked in their life, one can't understand answering to someone else. A higher Authority. He's weak.

                                                                                                      Unfortunately, President Obama doesn't know his Economics or Finances, nor does he have a reasonable plan here, right in the United States. Am sure Press Secretary Robert Gibbs is his advisor.
                                                                                                      Gees, they cook up this wild ideas, and think they're going to "fly' with the American public.

                                                                                                      Obama needs another vacation..

                                                                                                      Certainly, with 6,000,000 people unemployed in this country, he has another logical plan, other than sending Americans to Guam.

                                                                                                      When is this plan taking place? What plan?

                                                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                                                      #19.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:56 PM EDT
                                                                                                      bore-head007

                                                                                                      What in the F>>K are you talking about???never mind,the response from you could only be bizarre.

                                                                                                        #19.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:29 PM EDT
                                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                                        Pall Wall

                                                                                                        American's don't want to work anyway. The only people that do work in construction in this country are illegals, druggies, criminals, and high school drop outs. I say let Guam have their contracts. I hope it teaches lazy American's not to be so picky when it comes to work!!!!

                                                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                                                        Reply#20 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:52 AM EDT
                                                                                                        Bernie-548913

                                                                                                        Pall Wall: where do you get your information about "American don't want to work anyway." Did you do a study about people who work in the construction sector? Post your study on Newsvine or better still you can use it for a Master's Degree Thesis. Oh, I forgot, you only have a Jr High diploma and are not working on your Masters or I guess you are its called master......!!! you can will in the rest of the letters.

                                                                                                        • 4 votes
                                                                                                        #20.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
                                                                                                        Sichuan

                                                                                                        Pall Wall, I placed and finished concrete for thirty-eight years, usually 30,000/40,000 square feet a day, no morning break, no afternoon break and no lunch break. It's called working with one hand and eating with the other. You couldn't do my job.

                                                                                                        • 5 votes
                                                                                                        #20.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:21 AM EDT
                                                                                                        Pall Wall

                                                                                                        "I guess you are its called master......!!! you can will in the rest of the letters."

                                                                                                        HUH??? Did you go to school passed the third grade?? I actually have a Construction Management Degree and I also own a construction company, so I do know what I'm talking about. The construction industry has a bad image because of the people at the bottom. Americans don't want to do the dirty work...they also don't want to work for anything less than $20, $30, $40 hr, etc, etc. Sure, some of us make $100,000 a year or more, but that's few and far between.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #20.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
                                                                                                        JEREMY-664722

                                                                                                        I've worked construction, bottom of the totem pole, and never made over $10 an hour. That's not alot of motivation to work. I've worked beside deadbeats that complained constantly about their pay after two days. They wouldn't work, really work, to prove they were worth more. They usually ended up quitting after a week, maybe two. The longer i stayed the better i looked. The pay never went up but the option of when and where i wanted to work got better.

                                                                                                        I agree with Pall Wall. Nobody wants to "work". They just want a paycheck. I would be happy if i ever got a job that payed even $15 an hour. But i will "work"(and working now) for less.

                                                                                                          #20.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:41 PM EDT
                                                                                                          usmcvet5711

                                                                                                          so ehat Pall Wall you are one of those construction companies where you make over 100,00 because you hire the illegals and pay the crap wages driving down construction wages. I know of many construction workers who are not druggies, work their asses off, and do much better work than any illegal who is only in for the cut and run. You are the reason that construction is so crappy and wages are sop low. If you own a construction company then hire American workers, report any contractor that employs illegals and pay your workers a decent wage. I also own a construction company and do not hire any illegals, will not pay anybody cash under the table, pay all of my taxes and fees and pay my workers a decent wage. I believe in quality and supporting American workers over illegal traitor labor any day. Oh and I know of many guys that will gladly work for less than $20.00 an hour and do excellent work. The construction industry has a bad image because of scum like you who employ illegal labor and drive down construction wages.

                                                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                                                          #20.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:49 PM EDT
                                                                                                          Pall Wall

                                                                                                          usmcvet5711

                                                                                                          For starters I never said I hired illegals or any individuals; I'm a GC...I contract to Sub-contractors so I don't have to keep people on my books. Whatever the subs want to pay their people, that's up to them. What I do is called BUSINESS...I pay subs what they are WORTH based on their SKILL set. It's people like you I won't hire or even have on my site!!

                                                                                                          JEREMY-664722

                                                                                                          It's people like you who we look for as employees. You have a good attitude and understand what good work ethics are about. It's people like you who we promote to Super; and pay you good money. If construction is the field you want to have a career, then at least get an associates degree in Construction Management (combined with a Bachelors in Business). You'll be making $100K a year within 5 years.

                                                                                                            #20.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:25 PM EDT
                                                                                                            Love America-1349918

                                                                                                            There are so many college educated people in the United States without jobs. They thought they would be handed out high paying superior work with the College Degree.

                                                                                                            There's no way white collar graduates will get their hands dirty in cement and dirt. That is too blue collar.

                                                                                                            Well, if they complain about no work, then there is no work.

                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                            #20.7 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:01 PM EDT
                                                                                                            JEREMY-664722

                                                                                                            I live in an agricultural area now where there's not alot of call for carpenters, or construction of any kind really. Plus it's mostly union around here. I refuse to do that.

                                                                                                            Tremaine, there's still not alot of work for those who are willing to get there hands dirty.

                                                                                                              #20.8 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:01 PM EDT
                                                                                                              bore-head007

                                                                                                              Pallwall,I'll bet all your subs pay workers comp too.Sure they do!!!They are all on the books for your substoo.Sure tyey are!!!How many of your subs hire other subs and require a certificate of insurance so they can 1099 them.I've been around the bussiness for a while and have seen how some find ways to skirt paying for workers comp.and avoid paying employment taxesFICA,and employer contributions of social security.

                                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                                              #20.9 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                              Stand up, speak out

                                                                                                              American's don't want to work anyway

                                                                                                              Especially those from south of the Mason-Dixon line or west of the Ohio. But it's like the chicken and the egg. Which came first? Do people not want to work beacause they only make peanuts or do employers only pay peanuts because they can't get anyone worth any more? At least that's the way I see it in construction.

                                                                                                                #20.10 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 5:58 PM EDT
                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                willie-749103

                                                                                                                From Neil's hometown paper, seems he LOVES to spend our money:

                                                                                                                "Despite the opposition of his home-state president, U.S. Rep. Neil Abercrombie is continuing to prod fellow House members to support an alternative engine for the new F-35 jet fighter.

                                                                                                                Abercrombie, a 10-term Democrat from Hawaii, jumped on a recent testing mishap with the newest version of the alternative engine by sending "Dear Colleague" letters to dozens of House members.

                                                                                                                The Sept. 14 letter contends that continuing to finance the alternative engine, made by General Electric and Rolls-Royce, will create competition with primary engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney.

                                                                                                                "A competitive engine program for the F-35 is vital to the national interest and readiness of our future fighter force," he wrote.

                                                                                                                President Obama has denounced the alternative F-35 engine as unnecessary.

                                                                                                                "This waste would be unacceptable at any time," Obama told the Veterans of Foreign Wars recently. "But at a time when we're fighting two wars and facing a serious deficit, it's inexcusable. It's unconscionable."

                                                                                                                Dave Helfert, Abercrombie's spokesman, said the congressman believes military advisers have given Obama "bad information" about the program.

                                                                                                                Abercrombie is chairman of the House air and land forces subcommittee, which has jurisdiction over the F-35, known as the Joint Strike Fighter, and its engines. The full House voted to continue funding the alternative engine at $560 million next year. None of the parts for the alternative engine are made in Hawaii."

                                                                                                                Neil, go away...far far far away.

                                                                                                                  Reply#21 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:58 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  Laura-766785

                                                                                                                  If congress doesn't wake up and realize that we aren't the "wealthiest country in the world" and that we just spend money like we are....money that we don't have, we are eventually going to go belly up. Of course, leave it to some politician to sneak the provision into a bill that doesn't even get read before it gets voted on by our illustrious crew in D.C. Although creating jobs is a worthy endeavor...if they're going to do it, they should keep it in the U.S. proper. If a person lives in the U.S., works in the U.S., they will spend the majority of it in the U.S. Shipping folks to Guam, even if it is a U.S. Territory, means the money won't circulate right here where we need it to grease the wheels of our economy.

                                                                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                                                                  Reply#22 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  bill s-374237

                                                                                                                  We are all probably going to die tomorrow because this base is delayed. I hear there were some Taliban in Antartica, I guess we need a base there soon or we are all going to die. Thank god we have 40 military bases in Germany, otherwise we would all die tomorrow. We need more troops in Sudan or we will die tomorrow.

                                                                                                                  Why do we need 180 military bases around the world or we are going to die tomorrow?, yet no other country has bases around the world and they aren't going to die tomorrow? Just how are we convinced that we and we alone need all this military thousands of miles away from anything or we are going to die tomorrow?

                                                                                                                  • 6 votes
                                                                                                                  Reply#23 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:12 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  my-2-cents

                                                                                                                  yet no other country has bases around the world and they aren't going to die tomorrow?

                                                                                                                  thats because they depend on us to defend them.

                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                  #23.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:21 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  florina

                                                                                                                  Right on Bill. If we don't build lots more bases, the terrorists will surely kill all of us. Every tit of land, every atoll, every sliver of land must be a military base of some sort. Spend, spend, spend. No I'm not a liberal or a Democrat.

                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                  #23.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  Mark-338347

                                                                                                                  No Florina, you're and idiot. Same as Bill....

                                                                                                                    #23.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:15 PM EDT
                                                                                                                    JEREMY-664722

                                                                                                                    I think it's time to remove the bases from some places and let people defend themselves.

                                                                                                                      #23.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:31 PM EDT
                                                                                                                      bill s-374237

                                                                                                                      Mark, please explain why I am an idiot. Can you please explain how borrowing money from China for our defense makes us safer. please tell me how providing troops in Germany while the German auto industry puts the US car industry out of business, somehow makes us safer. The Germans, the Japanese and the Koreans all want us out of their country, but we will not leave. If you travel through europe, you will see all the countries want us out. We were lied to when we were told that our lives would be ruined if we did not have a war and win in Vietnam, and we are being lied to when we are told we need military bases all over the world. When I was in the Marines, we spent lots of time digging holes and then filling them in. This is what the CIA and the defense department do. Create trouble so they can solve the trouble they created.

                                                                                                                      By the way mark

                                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                                      #23.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 6:38 PM EDT
                                                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                                                      wizardsnest

                                                                                                                      When did Wal-Mart take over Government bidding, so we'll let American families loose there homes and the American dream so some Off Shore worker can work? It's American Money! It's American Soil! Those of you that worry about the Unions or it's too expensive or whatever, pack your bags and leave!!!!! American taxpayer money is for Americans! Maybe if we tried to be a little less of the pocketbook for the rest of the world we would be a little better off! Quit giving away America's future!

                                                                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                                                                      Reply#24 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
                                                                                                                      my-2-cents

                                                                                                                      6 billion is not american money...it's japanese, of the 10 billion needed to relocate the us service men and families they are paying 6 bill.

                                                                                                                      • 3 votes
                                                                                                                      #24.1 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
                                                                                                                      Edwin-452090

                                                                                                                      wiz

                                                                                                                      They want to take a $10 Billion dollar project and add $10 billion on top just to get unions out there.

                                                                                                                      I was in support of this, until I got to the HUGE wage increase.

                                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                                      #24.2 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:34 AM EDT
                                                                                                                      wizardsnest

                                                                                                                      You two are the reason they shouldn't sell computers at the rent to own! Move back to where you came! It's always the Union's fault or the Republicans or the overpaid Auto workers with you. Live in a grass hut if you want, but not in America!

                                                                                                                        #24.3 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:32 PM EDT
                                                                                                                        Edwin-452090

                                                                                                                        So I should take it in the rear end so some union slug can make more money than he should?

                                                                                                                        Pack your own bags.

                                                                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                                                                        #24.4 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:50 PM EDT
                                                                                                                        my-2-cents

                                                                                                                        wiz,

                                                                                                                        I don't need to rent-to-own, I can pay out right for my stuff, thank you very much and pay cash to boot.

                                                                                                                        I came right from the good old USA, traveled the world seen enough to be able to give credit where credit is due. One thing that I do get tired of is people who think that they are better than others, the "you owe" me types. A lot of people are just after the $$$$$'s, they expect large paychecks for doing lousy work. If I were without a job, the first thing I would swallow is pride and take any job that I could get, because pride doesn't feed the family!!!

                                                                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                                                                        #24.5 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:07 PM EDT
                                                                                                                        wizardsnest

                                                                                                                        OK, enough of our bickering!

                                                                                                                        But 6 billion from Japan, Japan has some of the highest real estate values in the world, RIGHT? They are required by treaty to provide the bases on there soil at minimal or no cost to the American military, RIGHT? What is the value of the property that the American Military would be turning back to Japan?????? To Japan as always it's just good business sense, and they have billions in property back and we still have a base in the region, but this time on American soil, (A protectorate actually), so no one can tell us to go! Hech, if we sold the property we're using in Japan back to them we most likely could pay for the base and not use a cent of tax payer money.

                                                                                                                        As for Unions and such we agree to disagree!

                                                                                                                          #24.6 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:26 PM EDT
                                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                                          Shub Tnediserp Remrof

                                                                                                                          We are preparing for Cold War II that's all that is going on in the Pacific.

                                                                                                                          • 4 votes
                                                                                                                          Reply#25 - Mon Oct 5, 2009 11:15 AM EDT
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