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Church of Scientology convicted of fraud in France

Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:14 AM EDT
world-news, business, eu, france, scientology
Nicolas Vaux-Montagny, Associated Press Writer
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 7 photos
<p>Eric Roux, legal representative of the Church of Scientology in France, reacts after a court returned a verdict of fraud against the group, at a Paris courthouse, Tuesday, Oct. 27, 2009. A Paris court on Tuesday convicted the Church of Scientology of fraud and fined it more than half a million euros, but stopped short of banning the group as requested by prosecutors. (AP Photo/Jacques Brinon)</p>

Eric Roux, legal representative of the Church of Scientology in France, reacts after a court returned a verdict of fraud against the group, at a Paris courthouse, Tuesday, Oct. 27, 2009. A Paris court on Tuesday convicted the Church of Scientology of fraud and fined it more than half a million euros, but stopped short of banning the group as requested by prosecutors. (AP Photo/Jacques Brinon)

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PARIS — A Paris court convicted the Church of Scientology of fraud and fined it more than euro600,000 ($900,000) on Tuesday but stopped short of banning the group as prosecutors had demanded.

The group's French branch immediately announced it would appeal the verdict.

The court convicted the Church of Scientology's French office, its library and six of its leaders of organized fraud. Investigators said the group pressured members into paying large sums of money for questionable financial gain and used "commercial harassment" against recruits.

The group was fined euro400,000 ($600,000) and the library euro200,000. Four of the leaders were given suspended sentences of between 10 months and two years. The other two were given fines of euro1,000 and euro2,000.

However, the court did not order the Church of Scientology to shut down, ruling that it would be likely to continue its activities anyway "outside any legal framework."

Prosecutors had urged that the group be dissolved in France and fined euro2 million ($3 million).

The verdict is "an Inquisition of modern times," said Scientology spokeswoman Agnes Bron, referring to efforts to rout out heretics of the Roman Catholic Church in centuries past.

The head of an association that helps victims of sects, Catherine Picard, called the verdict "intelligent."

"Scientology can no longer hide behind freedom of conscience," she said.

The Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology, founded in 1954 by the late science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, has been active for decades in Europe, but has struggled to gain status as a religion. It is considered a sect in France and has faced prosecution and difficulties in registering its activities in many countries.

Defense lawyer Patrick Maisonneuve said during the trial that neither the Church of Scientology nor the six leaders on trial had gained financially from the group's practices.

The original complaint in the case dates back more than a decade, when a young woman said she took out loans and spent the equivalent of euro21,000 on books, courses and "purification packages" after being recruited in 1998. When she sought reimbursement and to leave the group, its leadership refused. She was among three eventual plaintiffs.

Olivier Morice, lawyer for civil parties in the case, said the verdict was "historic" because it was the first time in France that the Church of Scientology has been convicted of organized fraud.

Investigating judge Jean-Christophe Hullin spent years examining the group's activities, and in his indictment criticized what he called the Scientologists' "obsession" with financial gain and practices he said were aimed at plunging members into a "state of subjection."

The Church of Scientology teaches that technology can expand the mind and help solve problems. It claims 10 million members around the world, including celebrity devotees Tom Cruise and John Travolta.

Belgium, Germany and other European countries have been criticized by the U.S. State Department for labeling Scientology as a cult or sect and enacting laws to restrict its operations.

© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Groups: Defenders of the Faith
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  • Public Discussion (129)
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Rank on Rank

Belgium, Germany and other European countries have been criticized by the U.S. State Department for labeling Scientology as a cult or sect and enacting laws to restrict its operations.

What? Other countries do not have the discretion to decide what is a cult for their own citizens, and protect them from fraud perpetrated by said cult?

Has the United States ever labeled any sect a cult?

For example David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, or Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple?

  • 16 votes
#1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:57 AM EDT
cat-672389

What? The US can't criticize. (just a little humor)

We have freedom of religion. Who and what determines what is a cult and what is a religion?

David Koresh and Jim Jones were left alone until they were suspected of criminal activity.

For example in the Branch Davidians sect-a search warrant was being served because of weapons. While being served they started shooting and killing government people.

In the Jim Jones case a senator (I think his name was Ryan) went to Jones town to see what was going on, while they were leaving they (Ryan, and some reporters) were shot and killed.

It seems to me that both groups did mass suicide to get out of prosecution, I think any group committing illegal activity should be prosecuted. But I don't think we have the right to label them because we don't agree with them.

  • 6 votes
#1.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:40 AM EDT
Buckeye Voter

It seems to me that both groups did mass suicide to get out of prosecution...

Killing people is usually frowned upon in this country. Things such as gunning down a congressman on an airport tarmac or firing at federal agents when they come knocking will be met with some interest.

  • 6 votes
#1.2 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:04 AM EDT
King of Newsvine

But I don't think we have the right to label them because we don't agree with them.

I disagree. We do and we should. It might help save people before the alpha male in charge goes homi/suicidal.

  • 8 votes
#1.3 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:08 AM EDT
cat-672389

Both fair comments. Thanks

  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:24 AM EDT
Paul William Tenny

I don't see the point in playing favorites, all religion is fraud.

  • 11 votes
#1.5 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:37 AM EDT
EnlightenMe

I don't see the point in playing favorites, all religion is fraud.

Quoted For Truth.

  • 5 votes
#1.6 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:41 AM EDT
Lkessler

I'm with Paul here. Religions are a fraud. Want to do some good? Donate your money and or resources of any kind (including your time) to the charity whom you wish to benefit from such resources. Donating your money to organized religion is wasting it.

  • 7 votes
#1.7 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:56 AM EDT
Justme-517872

Lkessler, Great idea. Do your homework before you give your money though...many charity organizations are religion-based.

    #1.8 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:01 AM EDT
    PhxAZMom

    Belgium, Germany and other European countries have been criticized by the U.S. State Department for labeling Scientology as a cult or sect and enacting laws to restrict its operations.

    Scientology is recognized as a religion in the USA. The statement made by the State Dept. was probably made because we have the right to pursue, practice, believe, and follow, any religion we want. That statement reaks of political correctness.

    It's not illegal to belong to a group, cult, club, etc.

    Sadly, the groups(for lack of a better name) that engage in illegal activity, aren't discovered until an ex-member comes forward, or similar.

    It would be nice if there was a way to identify extremist groups, like the Klue Klux Klan who wear dunce caps. (which is appropriate)

    • 6 votes
    #1.9 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
    Lkessler

    Just-me: I agree--do your homework before you donate, and you'll be in good shape.

    Also, my comment should not be construed as condemnation of organized religion in general. I was a Catholic for many years, and the only thing that was worse for the wear were the rules that they had at the Catholic school I attended. Otherwise, I've met many a fine folk who are members of organized religion.

    • 3 votes
    #1.10 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:53 AM EDT
    buttzie

    Well,well,well...It appears that they ARE just a bunch of bad actors. Curious to see how many more lawsuits/indictments pop up.

    • 3 votes
    #1.11 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:48 PM EDT
    miasma

    What's kookier? Believing in xenu, virgin births, flying spaghetti monsters, leprechauns, unicorns, zombie messiahs, elephant headed-gods...etc

      #1.12 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:55 PM EDT
      Isis Smith

      You left out Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. All akin, in my opinion. It's all kooky as hell. I think it's fine for children to believe in Santa till they're 8 or 9, but the religiosos never seem to get the "It's a myth to keep you in line" memo.

      • 1 vote
      #1.13 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:18 PM EDT
      Simplistic Reality

      Scientology is nothing but a fraud. Tom Cruise got duped.

      • 8 votes
      #1.14 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
      JoMan

      Scientology is a rich man's cult, and since Tom Cruise is a very rich man he is a good mouth piece for them. Still doesn't give it any credibility. The people that tend to justify it that aren't already swallowed up by it, think he's dreamy and love his movies.

      • 7 votes
      #1.15 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:40 PM EDT
      Justme-517872

      Just-me: I agree--do your homework before you donate, and you'll be in good shape.

      Lol...that was sarcasm :) If the religious-based charities went belly-up, tons of poor people as well as the gov would be positively screwed. The gov can only afford to put out that kind of loot helping out other nations, not our own.

      I don't get how scientology is considered a religion anyhow. If it is about using technology to "expand the mind and help solve problems" how exactly is that spiritual. Wouldn't that fall under "educational"?

      • 4 votes
      #1.16 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:50 PM EDT
      asomatous

      Since when was killing people an accepted religious practice? Or beating them, psychologically torturing them, or blackmailing them (not to mention abusing children)? I didn't realize that the U.S. was this blind.

      • 1 vote
      #1.17 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:10 PM EDT
      Kshark

      Scientology is a cult, Too bad they only got nailed for fraud this time.

      Brainwashed idiots in the bloody thing.

      • 4 votes
      #1.18 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:07 PM EDT
      Simplistic Reality

      Not the first time they have been nailed.. won't be the last either.

      • 5 votes
      #1.19 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:24 AM EDT
      Ellen-for-Obama

      I'm with Paul here. Religions are a fraud. Want to do some good? Donate your money and or resources of any kind (including your time) to the charity whom you wish to benefit from such resources. Donating your money to organized religion is wasting it.

      I'm just about as anti-religion as a person can get, but there ARE a few congregations out there which really practice acts of kindness and don't get in other people's faces with their religion, nor do they coerce their congregants into large donations or investments. These are few and far between, depending on where you might live, but they're out there. I would just warn people who do like church to really know what goes on behind the scenes before they invest their hearts and wallets.

      Oh, and Scientology SOOOOOOOOO doesn't count as a religious organization. They're a corporation and they sell delusions, one secretive, litigious and expensive step at a time. And they should be taxed.

      • 5 votes
      #1.20 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:49 AM EDT
      Kshark

      Ellen-for-Obama--

      Apparently they also blackmail their clients.

      In regards to the churches, yeah there are good ones out there. Oddly enough I was watching some program down here, as Australia shows a fair amount of US shows or documentaries, and this was about the splintering of the Episcopalian or Presbyterians in Falls Church Virginia how the main church was becoming too conservative so a group splintered off to be more liberal and hold services in a rented out room above a different church and any and all are welcome fully, doesn't matter who ya are.

      So yeah there are good churches out there, you just never hear of them because they don't draw in press.

      • 4 votes
      #1.21 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:20 AM EDT
      Reply
      Justme-517872

      It's only ok if it's the U.S. doing it. That's the Golden Rule. And of course everyone else's business is our business. Our business is ours exclusively though. I do wish the U.S. had some spine like some other countries obviously do. We're too busy kowtowing to every nut that crawls out of the woodwork squawking for attention.

      Way to go for the EU! I admit my only impression is that derived from the famous Mr. Cruise who imho is a flippin nut. I've never understood why he is treated as some sort of authority/expert. His attack on Brook killed any possibility of credibility for me. He isn't a doctor contrary to popular belief. His apology was nothing more than a PR effort to quell the outrage - he meant what he said in the first place.

      • 7 votes
      Reply#2 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:35 AM EDT
      Spike Eng2

      There is not one Church in America that could not be charged with fraud or a multitude of other deceptions. Churches should be required to post a disclaimer on the front of their businesses "the view expressed here is the opinion of the Pastor and should not be taken serious".

      • 6 votes
      Reply#3 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:55 AM EDT
      2TailPuppy

      OK. Let's go on to the Catholic Church now. The biggest criminals of all.

      • 3 votes
      #4 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:58 AM EDT
      Gwenny

      And that's probably the real reason the judges declined to outlaw it. Once you started expecting these purveyors of mental illness to be honest and give something of value for what they demand, all religious organizations become suspect.

      • 5 votes
      #4.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:05 AM EDT
      caroaber

      Such anti-Catholic sentiments are tossed around with casual disregard here on NV. It isn't right. I wish you'd refrain.

      Oops, there goes post #6...

        #4.2 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:11 AM EDT
        2TailPuppy

        Such anti-Catholic sentiments are tossed around with casual disregard here on NV. It isn't right. I wish you'd refrain.

        So I guess you approve of child rape and molestation?

        Along with about 1,000 other crimes.

        • 2 votes
        #4.3 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:22 AM EDT
        PhxAZMom

        Caroaber

        "Such anti-Catholic sentiments are tossed around with casual disregard here on NV. It isn't right. I wish you'd refrain"

        Thousands of young boys were victims of abuse. THOUSANDS. TO make it worse, at first they tried to deny it, and hide it by transferring the offenders to different churches.

        See it for what it is. Not what you'd like it to be, or wish it to be.

        • 3 votes
        #4.4 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:28 AM EDT
        cat-672389

        Such anti-Catholic sentiments are tossed around with casual disregard here on NV. It isn't right. I wish you'd refrain.

        The only casual disregard I see, is how the catholic church casually disgregards the children.

        • 2 votes
        #4.5 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:29 AM EDT
        Justme-517872

        And of course no other religious organization has any stains on its hands. And of course child abuse is the Only thing that Catholicism is about. (sarcasm) I'm not Catholic and have no desire to be but I do have empathy for the good Catholics who endure the issues of the church on top of the hate from others.

        • 6 votes
        #4.6 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:51 AM EDT
        Kim-298921

        I am not Catholic, but even I am offended by the false equivalence that being Catholic means one approves of child molestation. Come on folks, you can do better than that.

        • 8 votes
        #4.7 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:53 AM EDT
        Gelbkreuz

        While you guys argue and bicker, remember Xenu is out there, and he is getting stronger...he feeds off your anger and division, kind of like that Sauron guy from the Lord of the Rings movie, but in a more Flash Gordon/Ming the Merciless sort of way.

        • 6 votes
        #4.8 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
        2TailPuppy

        I am not Catholic, but even I am offended by the false equivalence that being Catholic means one approves of child molestation

        So I guess you wouldn't know much about being abused my the priests and nuns?

        • 1 vote
        #4.9 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:15 AM EDT
        Gwenny

        I am not Catholic, but even I am offended by the false equivalence that being Catholic means one approves of child molestation

        That is not what was said. Please pay attention. The person said we should go after the Catholic Church, which through time and history has shown itself to be an evil organization that supports tyrants and abuses its people. Although, I have to say, if you ARE Catholic and you aren't trying to change the system, it makes you a criminal as well. I WAS Catholic. I got better. Of course, being told by my priest that I would go to hell if I ever told anyone else what was happening in my house and then having my mother excommunicated for divorcing the baby raping wife beater who the priest liked had a bit to do with it.

        • 2 votes
        #4.10 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
        Kim-298921

        So I guess you wouldn't know much about being abused my the priests and nuns?

        No. I don't have that experience. But condemning all Catholics because of the actions of some priests is unjust. Condemning all ___— because of the actions of some ___— is unjust.

        • 7 votes
        #4.11 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:29 AM EDT
        2TailPuppy

        But condemning all Catholics

        Not condemning all Catholics. We're condemning the company (management).

        • 5 votes
        #4.12 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:33 AM EDT
        Kim-298921

        Gwenny:

        I am paying close attention. Perhaps you'd like to read 4.3 again and tell me how it is not a condemnation of an individual Catholic for the actions of other Catholics over which that individual had no control or knowledge?

        I am sorry for what you suffered. Truly. It was horrible and evil and wrong. Why you feel the need to seek revenge against every single individual Catholic parishioner worldwide for what you suffered is really not something I understand. Again, I feel it's unjust.

        • 8 votes
        #4.13 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:33 AM EDT
        Kim-298921

        Not condemning all Catholics. We're condemning the company (management).

        Do you have amnesia or something? Do you think we can't see what you wrote if we scroll up?

        You accused an individual Catholic in post 4.3. You didn't make any qualification about 'management' - you said you 'guessed' that an individual Catholic person approved of child rape.

        Nice try. Well, no, it was actually a lousy try. That's not surprising. It's an indefensible position.

        • 7 votes
        #4.14 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:38 AM EDT
        2TailPuppy

        I am sorry for what you suffered.

        I didn't suffer...so much. There was actually a nun one time who could have been a little fun and maybe taught me something :-)

        • 1 vote
        #4.15 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:39 AM EDT
        2TailPuppy

        The Church is nothing but a business.

        The Vatican is a festering swamp of intolerance, greed, paranoia, hypocrisy and callous disregard of human suffering.

        The Catholic Church was initially against smallpox vaccination while millions were dying.

        • 4 votes
        #4.16 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:46 AM EDT
        Kim-298921

        I didn't suffer...so much

        I was addressing Gwenny, not you. That was made quite clear from my post starting with the name "Gwenny."

        • 2 votes
        #4.17 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:54 AM EDT
        rootboyslim

        Here is another Catholic hater who has no idea what they are talking about. Nothing worse than one person leaves a religion and does nothing but bashes it. What most here do not even relaize is there is more abuse in the protestant religions than the Catholic church.

        If you don't like the church, ignore it. I find that most times people are bashing Catholicism they do not understand what they are even writing about.

        • 3 votes
        #4.18 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:02 PM EDT
        bonos_rama

        "Why you feel the need to seek revenge against every single individual Catholic parishioner worldwide for what you suffered is really not something I understand. Again, I feel it's unjust."

        And yet millions of us do this every day with Muslims b/c of what 19 now dead ones did on 9/11.

        Hell, I know many Catholics who hate all Muslims b/c of that one act.

        • 2 votes
        #4.19 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:57 PM EDT
        bonos_rama

        "What most here do not even relaize is there is more abuse in the protestant religions than the Catholic church."

        Ah, here we go! Beautiful! A person who says it's wrong to disparage a church while he's disparaging another church.

        Religious people are an endless source of hilarity.

          #4.20 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:59 PM EDT
          Justme-517872

          A person who says it's wrong to disparage a church while he's disparaging another church.

          There is a difference between disparage and pointing out hypocrisy. Disparage would be the ignorant comments about the fairy in the sky, an example of pointing out hypocrisy would be stating what should be the obvious - that there are lots of groups with abuse issues.

            #4.21 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:54 PM EDT
            Kim-298921

            And yet millions of us do this every day with Muslims b/c of what 19 now dead ones did on 9/11.

            Which is, again, unjust. Your point is.....?

            • 2 votes
            #4.22 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:10 PM EDT
            Gwenny

            @Kim-298921 I don't have an problem with Catholics per se, I work for some and they are lovely people. I wouldn't date one. Or want my kids to date one. But I feel that way about practically all religion, it's not Catholic specific. I consider religion to be mental illness based on my own 35 years as a Christian and unmedicated sufferer of bipolar disorder. . .I got lithium and got over god.

            And you are correct. ONE Catholic was accused. . .but not ALL Catholics. Just one who I have had on ignore forever. That's no different than if you called me out personally for something. . I doubt all atheists would think you were targeting them as well.

            But condemning all Catholics because of the actions of some priests is unjust. Condemning all ___— because of the actions of some ___— is unjust.

            It is not wrong to condemn an organization that shield and protects the criminals in its midst. No one condemned ALL Catholics and you know it. We have condemned the Church and its hierarchy with the exception of one person criticizing an individual for defending one of the most evil organizations that has ever existed. Even if there were a Satan, he could not have accomplished as much evil as the followers of God have managed in 2 millennia.

              #4.23 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:28 AM EDT
              judi fermanich

              My church, my faith consists of people from all walks of life. Some are really trying to do right. Some will succeed. I am a Catholic. I am proud to be one.

              None of you non practicing people has any idea what you are talking about. All the people in all the religions are sinners. They are people who make mistakes. Sometimes they repeat the same mistake. The important thing is each of them, in their own way is attempting to better themselves, spiritually.

              And my question for all of you is, "Who the heck are you to belittle those of us who are making an effort to be better?" It is none of your business; plain and simple. Those who have committed crimes are criminals. If they are priests, they are sinners who have crossed a line and should pay for their crime. Did the church err in hiding these priests? Yes, probably, because no good can come from defending those who hurt children. Are all priests guilty of such heinous crimes? No, not by a long shot, and coloring all priests with the same brush is downright stupid! I give no quarter to you for your idiotic, mouthy comments about things you know little about.

              So thank you for having an opinion, but at least use some sense when you exercise your rights. Thank you for giving me a chance to speak my piece.

              • 1 vote
              #4.24 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:04 PM EST
              ChuckGreg

              #4.24

              I'm as non practicing as one can be. I used to be catholic. Many atheists and agnostics are ex-religious folks so I have to say that many of us do in fact know what they are talking about.

              Who am I to "belittle".....I'm the guy that is visually and aurally assaulted each day by religion. I'm the one that wears emotional scars from my youthful days in religion. Here, let me "use some sense" and exercise my rights....You want to be religious? Fine. Just keep it out of my face, my public schools, my government land and buildings, my courts of law, etc. Practice it in your church and home. Stay out of mine.

                #4.25 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:49 PM EST
                judi fermanich

                My reference had to do with people who have not been involved in the Catholic faith or any religious belief and instead rely on information from outside sources. Those of you who have your "own reasons" for having left the faith, are a different matter.

                I guess each of us must use good judgement as to which way we will go on our journey to our end. But I hope you would agree that no one has the right or should exercise their rights by belittling the beliefs of anyone else.

                That is disrespectful. And why here when the subject is Scientology? And is Scientology a religion or a cult. Since non members are not permitted to learn anything about the features of Scientology, how can we respond with any kind of honesty or judgement? The answer is, we cannot.

                  #4.26 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 11:12 AM EST
                  Justme-517872

                  Judi, Since the sci-fi writer who made up scientology wrote about it beforehand and actually said he wanted to make up a religion to make money, the only ones who don't laugh at it's credibility are the ones who either don't know this yet, or have already been sucked in. That's a general statement of course since there are exceptions to every rule.

                  I don't advocate belittling religions, but have no respect for con artists taking people for a ride. Since the inventor himself documented the fabrication and intent, I don't feel too bad for not respecting it.

                    #4.27 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 11:30 AM EST
                    judi fermanich

                    Justme, I would bow to your information because I have none of my own to refute your statements. Interesting, sound bite.

                    I love science fiction and read much but I confess I never read L Ron Hubbard. His stuff did not interest me.

                      #4.28 - Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:04 PM EST
                      Reply
                      Al 616

                      They should have banned them. Germany had enough sense to do so.

                      • 6 votes
                      Reply#5 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:06 AM EDT
                      Bernhard Meck

                      Actually, I don't think they did. But the cult of L. Ron Hubbard was quick to paint themselves as poor victims whenever German authorities try to crack down on their lucrative marketing scheme.

                      In fact, as I understand, scientologists in Germany has merely been denied a tax-exempt status typically awarded to faith groups. And I think they manipulated the media as well as the US state department, claiming religious prosecution. In fact, the cult managed to badger the IRS for decades, until the weakest links there finally gave in.

                      L.Ron Hubbard was right when he was interviewed decades ago about his fortune of being a science fiction writer. He said something like: "You can't get rich getting pennies per word. If you really want to make money", he alleged said "...you have to start your own religion!"

                      Meanwhile, his lucrative cult, the 'Cruise-cult' is still 'in business' in Germany, selling soul balsam to the gullible... But at least not at tax-payers' expense.

                      I still believe a final message from Hubbard will appear one day in which he will declare: "It was all just an experiment in mind control. You are all free to go home and take a shower. Good luck in the real world!"

                      • 4 votes
                      #5.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:44 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      bluearcher

                      Religion has always held the ultimate trump card in this nation simply because it is religion.

                      You think we as a nation would be done with sacred cows. An example being the Catholic Church. If the CEO of a corporation had been abetting pedophilia for 30-40 years he would be arrested and charged. Why not the Pope?

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#6 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:07 AM EDT
                      caroaber

                      The Pope is not a CEO, and can hardly keep his eyes on L.A., Boston, and other foreign archdioceses when he is based in Vatican City.

                      • 1 vote
                      #6.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:13 AM EDT
                      cat-672389

                      You right the Pope is not a CEO. He has a much more moral obligation to see that the Children of his church are safe.

                      I agree with bluearcher if any other company did what the Catholic churches has been doing for years they would be shut down and he has the head of the organization would be charged.

                      • 3 votes
                      #6.2 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:23 AM EDT
                      2TailPuppy

                      >The Pope is not a CEO

                      You're actually right. He is God's representative on earth and supposedly has much more power and infallible.

                      It would appear to me that he should at the very least be replaced...at the very least if you know what I mean.

                      • 5 votes
                      #6.3 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:30 AM EDT
                      caroaber

                      The office was replaced in 2005. The incidents of abuse you are referring to predate this current Pope's tenure. I still think that U.S. prelates are responsible for their own American priests.

                      • 2 votes
                      #6.4 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
                      Al 616

                      I thought that the Catholic church was the major stockholder for the parent umbrella company that runs Pepsi-Co, Taco-Bell, Pizza Hut, Doritos, et. al.

                      That actually does make him a CEO.

                        #6.5 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:34 PM EDT
                        bonos_rama

                        Heck with the Pope. I want to know why God, who sees everything, is letting kids get sexually abused by his representatives here on earth.

                        That's the real question.

                        • 3 votes
                        #6.6 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:00 PM EDT
                        Justme-517872

                        Boons, go read the Bible. Your comment shows a complete lack of information on the subject of God.

                        • 1 vote
                        #6.7 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:55 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        Gelbkreuz

                        Ruh Roh! Xenu gonna getcha!

                        • 5 votes
                        Reply#7 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:19 AM EDT
                        PhxAZMom

                        Welcome aboard Scientology! Please sign in, and move to the back of the bus. Looks like your amongst many other religions who praise God, pass judgment, and now you can add break the law. Congratulations!

                        • 3 votes
                        Reply#8 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:20 AM EDT
                        judi fermanich

                        Please leave my religion alone. The Catholic faith is one of private belief. It costs nothing to join and the teachings are readily available. Since it consists of people with all mindsets, not all of us are exactly alike.

                        Those of you who are anti religious are not forced to join any religious faith nor are you asked to contribute monies for the continuation of said faith. That said, you should not have any input as to whether my faith should be allowed. In fact, it is only your business should you be entertaining the idea of joining.

                        Faith, my faith, is important to me. I believe in God and his acceptance of me, warts and all. I believe that I am here to be the best I can be; to learn all I can and accept what I cannot. I believe that my reason for being here is as a learning tool so I can get to heaven and serve God as intended from the beginning. This is a journey for me and all Catholics, all people.

                        If you choose another path, so be it. But you have no reason to belittle my faith. Nor do you have any right to talk in a demeaning manner about the things that are important to me. We are people, as are you. We do not choose to demean your view. Offer us the same courtesy. Be as respectful of us as you expect from us. That is the right thing to do.

                        If you find that you cannot offer that courtesy, I feel sorry for you and will pray that you find compassion in your heart for those who are different from you. We are not perfect, neither are you. If you expect perfection in anyone then you are in the wrong world, my friend.

                        • 10 votes
                        #9 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:36 AM EDT
                        Justme-517872

                        Well said Judi. I'm really not sure what Catholics have to do with scientology anyhow (subject of article). Hopefully at some point people will find other tired cliches to beat into the ground and move on.

                        • 3 votes
                        #9.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:56 AM EDT
                        judi fermanich

                        Thank you, Justme-517872

                        • 3 votes
                        #9.2 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
                        Justme-517872

                        You're welcome :)

                        The catholic church isn't the only "group" with that kind of issue. They're just the ones in the spotlight. There are tales of abuse pretty much anywhere there are children...youth groups, sports groups, pediatricians, churches, schools, daycares, etc. The Catholic church is just an easy target for people who hate Christianity anyways. Hence the blind condemnation of all.

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.3 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:50 AM EDT
                        NU Wildcat Fan

                        I see no relation to my Catholicism.

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.4 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:07 PM EDT
                        Digital-904078

                        Very good point JustMe.

                          #9.5 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:15 PM EDT
                          Justme-517872

                          Thanks Digital. :)

                            #9.6 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:54 PM EDT
                            MotorcycleEmptiness

                            Oh, cry me a river!

                            Who cares if people demean your view? All I ever hear from the religious is how criticism of their faith somehow 'hurts' them.You know what? Grow some balls and grow up. There, I said it.

                            How do you think it feels to be told by some old buffoon that I need saved when he didn't even know what my name was? I felt pretty annoyed by his blanket judgement of me but did I whine pathetically about it? No!

                            Religion is probably the worst thing that man ever created throughout his short history.

                              #9.7 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:12 PM EDT
                              Justme-517872

                              How do you think it feels to be told by some old buffoon that I need saved when he didn't even know what my name was?

                              Okay so you're going to be like that old man and be disrespectful and judgemental to people you don't even know? Way to show 'em!! (sarcasm) I guess "growing up" doesn't always mean maturing right?

                              • 1 vote
                              #9.8 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:49 AM EDT
                              MotorcycleEmptiness

                              It's very easy to quote mine.

                              The point of the old man analogy was to display that moaning about having your feelings hurt is pretty pitiful. I still stand by that; who cares if you're offended about your religious beliefs? That old guy made a sweeping judgement about me and I didn't b**ch about it like it was a big deal.

                              The original quote stated "Please leave my religion alone". Why? Because that person might invoke the pathetic argument about being 'offended' by a point of view?

                              If you're offended by someone suggesting that your religion might just be the wrong way to live your life then you're pathetic.

                                #9.9 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:04 PM EDT
                                Justme-517872

                                When the best "debate" someone can come up with is throwing insults at other people it is also very pathetic. You make no point and share no information. It is just pathetic meanness thrown at perfect strangers. If one is smart enough, it is entirely possible to make your point and still avoid the PC bs without coming across as a total... ummm.... donkey.

                                  #9.10 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:18 AM EDT
                                  MotorcycleEmptiness

                                  When the best "debate" someone can come up with is throwing insults at other people it is also very pathetic.

                                  If you think calling someone pathetic is an insult then you clearly haven't been insulted very often.

                                  You make no point and share no information

                                  Sorry, that's just wrong. My point, which is stated in my last comment, was that I reject the idea of using hurt feelings as a defence against criticising religion. I just don't give religion that special respect that others feel it deserves. Just like you're not immune from criticism from your politics or choice of football team, your religion isn't immune either.

                                  AFAIK, there hasn't been any data collected on how much the religious whine. When there is a poll about it I will happily quote it.

                                  It is just pathetic meanness thrown at perfect strangers.

                                  I think over the course of two comments I used the words 'pathetic', 'pitiful' and said I was annoyed about how religious tend to b**ch about having their feelings hurt. That's not being very mean. Barely any swear words used at all and, if anything, your comment proves my point. I said nothing overtly mean, nor personal, about these people.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #9.11 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:22 PM EDT
                                  Husker88Fan

                                  I think we need to send some viners to a workshop on how to be tolerant and debate respectfully after a certain number of posts displaying the lack of same.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #9.12 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:34 PM EDT
                                  judi fermanich

                                  Motorcycle, My feelings were not hurt by including Catholicism in this post. I am resentful of your lack of respect. I believe that you impugn my honor and my faith and no "point" you feel you made justifies your ridiculing someone's, anyone's belief structure.

                                  More is the pity that you are apparently too blind in your justification to realize that you have no leg to stand on as far as making "a point", by belittling anyone's belief system. If nothing else, Be respectful or be quiet.

                                  No one ever said you were required to be a believer, a joiner or an atheist. But respect should be first and foremost on your mind as you respond to any post. There I feel you are sadly lacking. Otherwise, speak away, being mindful that other people do not share your bigotry and lack of respect. Thank you.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #9.13 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:46 PM EDT
                                  MotorcycleEmptiness

                                  Motorcycle, My feelings were not hurt by including Catholicism in this post. I am resentful of your lack of respect. I believe that you impugn my honor and my faith and no "point" you feel you made justifies your ridiculing someone's, anyone's belief structure.

                                  If you look through my posts then I think you'll find that at no point did I mention Catholicism. I think believing without evidence to be irrational. Is that really so disrespectful?

                                  More is the pity that you are apparently too blind in your justification to realize that you have no leg to stand on as far as making "a point", by belittling anyone's belief system. If nothing else, Be respectful or be quiet.

                                  Sorry, you're putting words in my mouth. My point, once again and hopefully for the last time, is that complaining about having your feelings hurt isn't a credible defence against criticising religion. It wouldn't be in political thought or discussions about the arts. I just don't extend that courtesy.

                                  However, under no circumstances did I ridicule anyone's belief system. I mentioned nothing about Catholicism either.

                                  No one ever said you were required to be a believer, a joiner or an atheist. But respect should be first and foremost on your mind as you respond to any post.

                                  Really? Should it? What about one of the fellow viners who regularly cites that Obama is akin to Adolf Hitler? Why should I show him respect?

                                  Otherwise, speak away, being mindful that other people do not share your bigotry and lack of respect.

                                  Once again, never said anything bigoted. Never even mentioned any specific religious sect or group.

                                    #9.14 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:24 PM EDT
                                    Justme-517872

                                    If you think calling someone pathetic is an insult then you clearly haven't been insulted very often.

                                    It certainly isn't a compliment now is it? Personally, I'm not Catholic, and if I were judging by the quality of your posts thus far, wouldn't give it a heckuva lot of weight anyhow. Particularly the inability to understand the difference between criticizing something and just throwing out silly insults.

                                    No one was using hurt feelings as a defense for their beliefs. Not sure if you'll get this but the point was actually asking you to skip the silly insults and try an actual discussion.

                                    said I was annoyed about how religious tend to b**ch about having their feelings hurt.

                                    Seriously? Would this complaint be coming from the side that whines and cries about people saying "Merry Christmas" and having religious references visible on their vehicles and shrink away in shock and fear every time they hear the word "God"? There are some serious whiners on both sides of the fence who need to chuck it up and learn that not everyone is just like them nor do they want to be.

                                    In 9.7 and 9.9 do you even see how similar you are to the very people you are complaining about? In 9.14 you finally managed to throw out a statement of your opinion without acting like those you condemn (I think believing without evidence to be irrational.) and actually gave a point that someone could have a discussion with you about.

                                      #9.15 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
                                      MotorcycleEmptiness

                                      No one was using hurt feelings as a defense for their beliefs. Not sure if you'll get this but the point was actually asking you to skip the silly insults and try an actual discussion.

                                      In post 9:

                                      Please leave my religion alone.

                                      it is only your business should you be entertaining the idea of joining.

                                      The post incidentally starts with "please leave my religion alone." You think that both of these statements is a credible argument to cease debate? I certainly don't.

                                      Particularly the inability to understand the difference between criticizing something and just throwing out silly insults.

                                      I have no inability to see the difference, we just disagree on what is actually insulting. Moaning about having your religion criticised is basically whining. Sorry, but that's what it is.

                                      People need to get thicker skins.

                                      Would this complaint be coming from the side that whines and cries about people saying "Merry Christmas" and having religious references visible on their vehicles and shrink away in shock and fear every time they hear the word "God"?

                                      For the record, I was refering to what someone hear posted specifically. You assume that I agree people who use the same tactic when it comes to 'Merry Christmas' etc. If anything they're even more pitiful.

                                      That isn't to say there aren't some things worthy of complaining about, such as the false equivalence between intelligent design and evolution. Or people being persecuted for their beliefs. However, complaining about your hurt feelings is not credible.

                                        #9.16 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:12 PM EDT
                                        MotorcycleEmptiness

                                        Should be pointed out that I meant to say 'here' rather than 'hear' and the word 'with' should come after people.

                                          #9.17 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:21 PM EDT
                                          Justme-517872

                                          My feeling aren't hurt dahlin. I'm not Catholic and I don't care a whole lot about what others think of me unless they're tied to my paycheck. At any rate, I'm done wasting my typing skills. There are viners who are able to voice their opinion in an intelligent manner and those who just haven't made it to that level yet.

                                          Have a good weekend anyhow.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #9.18 - Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:23 AM EDT
                                          judi fermanich

                                          If I state that you insult me, then you have insulted me. Whether you "think so" or not. Unfortunately, I must agree with Justme- and I am leaving. When you get to the part where you can have a discussion about Scientology as it is written, and leave the insults at home, then I will be glad to talk to you.

                                          Have a great day, everyone!

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #9.19 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:11 AM EST
                                          MotorcycleEmptiness

                                          You seem to be missing the point here - whether or not you've been insulted or not is, frankly, irrelevant. I find it hard to believe that I actually did insult you, considering that I never specifically mentioned your particular creed.

                                          I'm actually intrigued by this; can you highlight parts of my posts where I've insulted you directly? I certainly can't. Not one mentioned you by name, made remarks on your personality or even mentioned your religion.

                                          I stand by what Stephen Fry said with regards to the culture of taking offence. I would mention his quote but it contains a swear word and, to be honest, I'm not sure whether or not you'll be insulted by it. Best leave it then.

                                            #9.20 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:35 AM EST
                                            Reply
                                            tony1234

                                            Does anybody knows what Scientology is about and why so many actors are into it?

                                            • 4 votes
                                            Reply#10 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:51 AM EDT
                                            Gelbkreuz

                                            I just don't understand why they gravitated to that crap storyline. I mean, come on, Star Wars has a waaay better mythology. The believers of Scientology could instead be Jedis or Sith. If you gave me the choice, hell I'd want to be Luke freakin Skywalker, not some Buck Rogers reject trying to expel alien souls from my body.

                                            May the Force Be With You is how I'd sign off with everyone I'd meet, and I'd even get one of those Hasbro telescoping lightsabers that make that wicked cool sound when you whip them out. That's how I'd settle any criticism of my religion. "I find your lack of faith disturbing!" WHAP. "Rebel scum!"

                                            • 5 votes
                                            #10.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
                                            wlfldy

                                            Take a look at clambake.org

                                            Everything you want to know about COS

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #10.2 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:53 AM EDT
                                            PhxAZMom

                                            Hi Tony,

                                            It's easier to google it. You can go directly to the official site.

                                              #10.3 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:56 AM EDT
                                              Digital-904078

                                              There's already plenty of people signed into the Star Wars mythology. Most would be pissed if they were equated to scientology too! lol

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #10.4 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:17 PM EDT
                                              Robert.Merrill

                                              The link: Operation Clambake: http://www.xenu.net/roland-intro.html

                                              In a Nutshell

                                              The Church of Scientology is a vicious and dangerous cult that masquerades as a religion. Its purpose is to make money. It practices a variety of mind-control techniques on people lured into its midst to gain control over their money and their lives. Its aim is to take from them every penny that they have and can ever borrow and to also enslave them to further its wicked ends.
                                              It was started in the 1950s by a science fiction writer named L. Ron Hubbard in fulfilment to his declared aim to start a religion to make money. It is an offshoot to a method of psychotherapy he concocted from various sources which he named "Dianetics". Dianetics is a form of regression therapy. It was then further expanded to appear more like a religion in order to enjoy tax benefits. He called it "Scientology".

                                              Scientology is a confused concoction of crackpot, dangerously applied psychotherapy, oversimplified, idiotic and inapplicable rules and ideas and science-fiction drivel that is presented to its members (at the "advanced" levels) as profound spiritual truth.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #10.5 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:27 AM EDT
                                              King of Newsvine

                                              oversimplified, idiotic and inapplicable rules and ideas and science-fiction drivel that is presented to its members (at the "advanced" levels) as profound spiritual truth

                                              wait.. so it IS a religion after all! ;)

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #10.6 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:22 AM EDT
                                              Kshark

                                              tony1234--

                                              Does anybody knows what Scientology is about and why so many actors are into it?

                                              A bet made by L Ron Hubbard that he could start a "religion" and make money. He did.

                                              As for actors, well first start with actors being self centered, all about them. Scientology does just that for them, with a price. They are pampered, and taken care of, Scientology is almost like the mafia now in the entertainment, mainly the film industry. They have a lot of control. The actors, eh give a bit of money and are rewarded with a lot of pampering, and attention, just what they wanted.

                                              Then comes the really tricky part, part of entering Scientology means a "confessional booth" in a way in that they will talk to high rankers in the cult organization, unload all their dirty secrets as a form of "healing" and to "release the burden" those secrets are kept for a rainy day namely if someone starts to speak out against Scientology they would then be blackmailed with the whole you leave WE TELL deal, voila career harming.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #10.7 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:12 PM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              HJ-1205638

                                              Thank you for that post Judi. I wouldn't put it quite that way, but its the same thing I wanted to say - in that it reminds people to be tolerant.

                                              Freedom of speech comes with a responsibility to not take everything said personal, and an acknowledgement that others will have differing opinions from you. Differing opinions are a good thing! A civil society allows for discussion of many opinions/options/ideas and thus frthering the development of culture, science, etc.

                                              • 3 votes
                                              Reply#11 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:51 AM EDT
                                              judi fermanich

                                              HJ-, tolerence seems to be in short supply, doesn't it? Many people are apt to use their right to free speech to trample on someone else's beliefs. I know nothing about Scientology except that it seems to be expensive to belong.

                                              My idea of religion is that it is open to all without cost. I laugh when I think of Jesus throwing the money lenders out of the synogogue and religions such as Scientology go in the other direction. Still, each of us searches for something to give us purpose and if those in that faith choose a direction that is different than mine, I wish them well.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #11.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:29 AM EDT
                                              bonos_rama

                                              how is catholicism free? If you want to be married or baptise a child in the church, or hold a funeral there, you'd better have been tithing for years. You HAVE to be a member, and to be a member in good standing, you HAVE to give 10% or more in tithing.

                                              So free? No.

                                                #11.2 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:02 PM EDT
                                                judi fermanich

                                                Well, actually we do try to give a potion of our money to fund some things in the church. And money is charged to obtain some functions. No you do not have to be a member to be baptized, nor do you have to give specific amounts for these services although there is a fee structure. To be a member is good standing, you only have to go to church and say Hi, to God.

                                                It is nice to afford to pay for things; however God if free for the talking to and he is not interested in fee for service. So if you want to attend services every Saturday or Sunday, feel free to do so. It costs nothing and God would love to see you.

                                                Since I have been able to obtain these services as I described them to you, I know I am correct.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #11.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:53 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                Jimster

                                                Wow, and after pulling out all the stops too.

                                                They sent Tom Cruise himself over to persuade the French judges.

                                                First, he tried saying, "You complete me". Nothing.

                                                Then he screamed, "Show me the money!". **Crickets**

                                                Then pulled out his final weapon and jumped up and down on one of those fancy French sofas. Zilch.

                                                I guess those French are made of stronger stuff!

                                                Maybe they should've sent John

                                                • 4 votes
                                                Reply#12 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:52 AM EDT
                                                Jimster

                                                Wow, and after pulling out all the stops too.

                                                They sent Tom Cruise himself over to persuade the French judges.

                                                First, he tried saying, "You complete me". Nothing.

                                                Then he screamed, "Show me the money!". **Crickets**

                                                Then pulled out his final weapon and jumped up and down on one of those fancy French sofas. Zilch.

                                                I guess those French are made of stronger stuff!

                                                Maybe they should've sent John

                                                • 3 votes
                                                Reply#13 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:55 AM EDT
                                                Husker88Fan

                                                Actually, I think "you can't handle the truth" Jack Nicholson may have been a better send if he is into Scientology... or not! LOL

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #13.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:22 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                BicycleMike

                                                T-A-R-D-S

                                                  Reply#14 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:38 AM EDT
                                                  Secretary-1424191Deleted
                                                  Mandown2478

                                                  I'm sorry, but I don't feel sorry for any of the "victims" of this crime. If you're gullible enough to believe in this "church" and have bought all the books and resources on your own accord you have no room to file suit. That was your choice. Stupid maybe, but still your choice.

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  Reply#16 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:05 PM EDT
                                                  amswink

                                                  I agree. Instead of being suspicious of an organization that places you on a hierarchy based on how much money you give, they kind of fell for it. Most people are aware that Scientology is a scam, and these people chose to buy all of the stuff they did.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #16.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:19 PM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  Craig19

                                                  Scientology is more like a lodge than a religion. Like the Masons.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  Reply#17 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:39 PM EDT
                                                  YouLie-1337884Deleted
                                                  NU Wildcat Fan

                                                  I've always considered them a cult since a friend of mine in high school had to be "deprogrammed" by a specialist in cult rescues. She was brainwashed into paying ever-increasing amounts of money to take advancing levels of "self-help classes." She was rescued before she could run away from home and never be seen again. This was in Illinois, and the cult was trying to get her to move out West somewhere. She was an "A" student with no substance abuse issues or depression, no social problems, no legal issues, etc. Part of the brainwashing was to keep what she learned in the classes "secret."

                                                  There are well-meaning people in the cult who have found a sense of purpose in life, but the people in charge get rich by preying on unsuspecting folk. Celebrity promotion of this "religion" is another factor.

                                                  • 6 votes
                                                  Reply#19 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:04 PM EDT
                                                  JoMan

                                                  Religion like anything else can become an addiction that once gets out of control can ruin a person's life. That would be any christian denomination- mainline or other, other recognised religion, sect or cult.

                                                  I know people in mainline christian churchs that feel like they should do more and give more for "God" and the church and they have lost their homes, marraiges and families over it.

                                                    #19.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:33 PM EDT
                                                    King of Newsvine

                                                    Religion like anything else can become an addiction that once gets out of control can ruin a person's life. That would be any christian denomination- mainline or other, other recognised religion, sect or cult.

                                                    Some Some Christian religions are cults, but most are not. Scientology has some cult-like qualities, but it's pretty benign compared to Waco, Jonestown, Children of God etc.

                                                    My measuring stick is this: Is the leader of the church having sex with minors (with the co-operation of adult church members). AND does he forbid the other males from having sex?

                                                    If the answer to both questions is yes, then it's definitely a cult.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #19.2 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:01 PM EDT
                                                    JoMan

                                                    Oh there are lots of Christian churches, and a lot of the newer popular home churches that have got way off base. The leader is not having sex with underage children, but really bad spiritual abuses are going on. The stretch even the bounds of being sects... I would call these little social religion set ups - cults. They read from the Bible but twist the scriptures to fit their own agendas.

                                                    These leaders manipulate, control and run their members just like the traditional cults. Their members don't move or breath until the leadership says to. The members are convinced that they are hearing straight from the throne of God. They turn over their money, their time and their families to these predators.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #19.3 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:15 AM EDT
                                                    King of Newsvine

                                                    These leaders manipulate, control and run their members just like the traditional cults. Their members don't move or breath until the leadership says to. The members are convinced that they are hearing straight from the throne of God. They turn over their money, their time and their families to these predators.

                                                    I agree

                                                      #19.4 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:24 AM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      Hammie

                                                      I am not a Catholic but rather a professor of comparative religions. I do, however, feel obligated by personal moral compunction to speak my piece herein regarding the attacks on institutional Catholicism - not even the focus of the article. As far as institutionalized religions are concerned the largest Christian church (in terms of membership), is the Roman Catholic Church. In America as well as the rest of the world the numbers speak for themselves. As such, it presents a large, easy to hit target when an individual (or several hundred individuals), who are predatory, unbalanced, or criminal present with offenses against persons. In fairness to the Catholic Church as an organization from which every other Christian religion is an offshoot, it has also been criticized and often unfairly due to "bad blood" between itself and members of the many Protestant organized churches which broke from it or from other Protestant sects. Obviously, the official hierarchy of this huge and seemingly overwhelmingly difficult to manage organization needs to rely upon a decreasingly localized governing structure (just as any of the other smaller organized Christian religions must), of regions, archdioceses, dioceses, and parishes worldwide. When any human construct contains that many millions of members the statistical truth is that there will unfortunately be a number of sociologically unfit persons at every level. When a Catholic priest is found to be guilty of a crime it does not mean the institution is evil in and of itself yet headlines seem to proclaim it as the official action of the organization itself. I compare this kind of thinking to the views of many non-Americans in response to military or diplomatic actions on the world stage. When the commander of an armored unit in Iraq took it upon himself to assault what turned out to be a school and several innocent civilians were killed the headlines and commentators and the people around the water-cooler all said "The U.S. kills innocent people without regard to who they are." If it's a politically charged commentator he may even say "Obama kills kids!" Although in the final accounting, it is up to the organization, whether church or government to address the individual fitness of each one of it's priests or field commanders it is unfair to condemn the entire organization even if one harbors resentment, hatred, or long held ignorance about its hierarchical workings.

                                                      I realize I have discussed not only religion and politics but the politics of religion. I make no excuses for the reprehensible actions of individuals - they should be held morally and legally responsible; only the most simple-minded person would believe that the Catholic Church is somehow founded on abuse of its members.

                                                      • 6 votes
                                                      Reply#20 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:10 PM EDT
                                                      culculun

                                                      This "Cult" did commit illegal activities in France, so therefore they were fined for it. Just because the USA deem fit to accept this man made cult as a religion it does not mean that the rest of the world has to follow suit.

                                                      It should be remembered that this so called religion was invented by Ron Hubbard in one of his books. You may just as well follow the force in star wars..

                                                      This cult has duped many people out of a great deal of money. All they are in it for is huge profits.

                                                      • 6 votes
                                                      Reply#21 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:21 PM EDT
                                                      JoMan

                                                      Very good post - may the force go with you. ;)

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #21.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:31 PM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      JoMan

                                                      I'm glad this cult was brought to task. People in authority need to be more careful with other people's lives, especially people that are in vulnerable positions, looking for a place to belong, and miracles to take care of their life problems.

                                                      People need to be more responsible with themselves. Understand that there is no quick fix to life. Sometimes no fix at all. Life is hard, but there are good things in the midst of it. They definitely should never turn themselves over to other people to have a faith or a belief system. "God" gave us the greatest gift of all - a brain - and I'm sure he wants us to use it.

                                                      • 3 votes
                                                      Reply#22 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
                                                      Husker88Fan

                                                      I believe the story itself is igniting irresponsible discussion with such statements as:

                                                      The Church of Scientology teaches that technology can expand the mind and help solve problems.

                                                      Decades of controversy over a 'church' that teaches that technology can expand the mind and help solve problems??? That's all that this 'church' is about? That's a big draw for celebrities and their money!

                                                      At this rate, we'll be seeing BING (search engine) being the next religious controversy! After all, that's technology with claims of "When it comes to decisions that matter .. Bing and decide".

                                                      Ridiculous reporting becoming more of the same!

                                                      BTW: Whether I (or anyone else) believes in the COS is not of issue here. I know what the "church" is supposedly about so no need for me to google it. LOL I also recognize that their mission portrayal may appear differently to an outsider vs a full member as often the rules change once inside. What is important is the issue of whether a 'church' is hiding behind a religious formation for criminal conduct or financial gain.

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      Reply#23 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:35 PM EDT
                                                      asomatous

                                                      It's not about technology. If anything, they're trying to re-write the definition of "science" using completely fictitious and unfounded claims (it was began by a science fiction writer who decided to make the "religion" to win a bet he made at a party).

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #23.1 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:29 AM EDT
                                                      Husker88Fan

                                                      My point exactly .. irresponsible journalism at its best .. again!

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #23.2 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:11 PM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      thegobots1Deleted
                                                      Gailm

                                                      It is NOT a religion, just a cult. No better than any other CULT. It should not have a non-profit status. I wish the US and every other country on the planet would refrain from recognizing Scientology as anything other than a means to part people from their hard earned money! They truly are criminals.

                                                      • 5 votes
                                                      Reply#25 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:24 PM EDT
                                                      Richie Boy

                                                      Scientology is as dangerous as the GOP but all things being equal and this being America it ain't illegal to be a spiritually void imbecile with the moral code of the mob. L. Ron Who?

                                                        Reply#26 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:34 PM EDT
                                                        Hammie

                                                        Elron Hubbub, I think he said.

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #26.1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:35 PM EDT
                                                        King of Newsvine

                                                        Enron Hubble

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #26.2 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:05 PM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        ChuckGreg

                                                        All religions are cults. All religions are guilty of fraud.

                                                          Reply#27 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:14 AM EDT
                                                          judi fermanich

                                                          ChuckGreg, it is foolish to speak of absolutes about anything. It minimizes what you are trying to say.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #27.1 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:08 PM EST
                                                          Reply
                                                          C. Vaughan

                                                          Scientology should be treated as the pyramid scheme it is. Complete banning and serious enforcement should be enacted to prevent this predatory group from victimizing any more people. Although one could argue that if you buy into a cult that tells you that Xenu flew aliens to earth in intergalactic DC7s, dropped them in volcanos and then nuked the volcanos (as if death by lava wasn't good enough) and all disease and suffering is a result of their souls flying around, you sort of deserve to have your money taken.

                                                          It's just more obviously an exploitative group than many other cults/'religions.'

                                                            Reply#28 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:41 PM EDT
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