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AP IMPACT: Stimulus jobs overstated by thousands

Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:02 AM EDT
business, politics, barack-obama, jobs, stimulus-jobs
Brett J. Blackledge, Associated Press

FILE - In a Wednesday, Aug. 5, 2009 file photo, President Barack Obama announces $2.4 billion in taxpayer grants to create electric cars and tens of thousands of jobs to try to stabilize American confidenceat during a speech on the economy in Wakarusa, Ind. The federal government overstated by thousands the number of jobs it created or saved with contracts awarded to businesses under President Barack Obama's economic recovery program, according to a review by The Associated Press of employment data released in the stimulus program's first progress report. (AP Photo/Michael Conroy, File)

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WASHINGTON — A Colorado company said it created 4,231 jobs with the help of President Barack Obama's economic recovery plan. The real number: fewer than 1,000.

A child care center in Florida said it saved 129 jobs with the help of stimulus money. Instead, it gave pay raises to its existing employees.

Elsewhere in the U.S., some jobs credited to the stimulus program were counted two, three, four or even more times.

The government has overstated by thousands the number of jobs it has created or saved with federal contracts under the president's $787 billion recovery program, according to an Associated Press review of data released in the program's first progress report.

The discrepancy raises questions about the reliability of a key benchmark the administration uses to gauge the success of the stimulus. The errors could be magnified Friday when a much larger round of reports is released. It is expected to show hundreds of thousands of jobs repairing public housing, building schools, repaving highways and keeping teachers on local payrolls.

The White House seized on an initial report from a government oversight board weeks ago that claimed federal contracts awarded to businesses under the recovery plan already had helped pay for more than 30,000 jobs. The administration said the number was evidence that the stimulus program had exceeded early expectations toward reaching the president's promise of creating or saving 3.5 million jobs by the end of next year.

But the 30,000 figure is overstated by thousands — at the very least by nearly 5,000, or one in six, based on AP's limited review of some of the contracts — because some federal agencies and recipients of the money provided incorrect job counts. The review found some counts were more than 10 times as high as the actual number of jobs; some jobs were credited to stimulus spending when, in fact, none were produced.

The White House says it is aware there are problems. In an interview, Ed DeSeve, an Obama adviser helping to oversee the stimulus program, said agencies have been working with businesses that received the money to correct mistakes. Other errors discovered by the public also will be corrected, he said.

"If there's an error that was made, let's get it fixed," DeSeve said.

Within minutes of the publication of AP's story, the White House released a statement that it said was the "real facts" about how jobs were counted in the stimulus data distributed two weeks ago. It said that had been a test run of a small subset of data that had been subjected only to three days of reviews, that it had already corrected "virtually all" the mistakes identified by the AP and that the discovery of mistakes "does not provide a statistically significant indication of the quality of the full reporting that will come on Friday."

The data partially reviewed by the AP for errors included all the data presently available, representing all known federal contracts awarded to businesses under the stimulus program. The figures being released Friday include different categories of stimulus spending by state governments, housing authorities, nonprofit groups and other organizations.

As of early Thursday, on its recovery.org Web site, the government was still citing 30,383 as the actual number of jobs linked so far to stimulus spending, despite the mistakes the White House has now acknowledged and said were being corrected.

There's no evidence the White House sought to inflate job numbers in the report, but the administration embraced the flawed figures the moment they were released.

The figures released earlier this month claimed jobs linked to roughly $16 billion in federal contracts, an initial report on a small fraction of the total stimulus program. DeSeve said federal officials had only a few days to go through the data for errors before they were made public.

It's not clear just how far off the 30,000 claim was. The AP's review, which was not an exhaustive accounting of all 9,000 contracts reported by the government so far, homed in on the most obvious cases of jobs wrongly tied to the stimulus because of duplications or misinterpretations of how the jobs should be counted.

While the thousands of overstated jobs represent a tiny sliver of the overall economy, they represent a significant percentage of the initial employment count credited to the stimulus program.

Administration officials say they are trying to head off such problems before the new figures are released Friday.

"Part of this is, it's an unprecedented effort," said Tom Gavin, a spokesman for the White House budget office. "It's as new to recipients who have to do it as it is to the American people who are able to view this data for the first time."

Some businesses actually undercounted jobs funded with stimulus money, the AP's review shows, because they reported only new jobs created, not existing jobs saved. But by far the most reporting errors were found in the number of jobs credited to the stimulus.

"I'm not trying to say one balances out the other," DeSeve said. "We don't like either of them."

In one major miscount found by the AP review, Colorado-based Teletech Government Solutions had worked with the Federal Communications Commission to come up with a job count for its $28.3 million contract for call centers fielding consumer questions about conversion of televisions to receive digital signals. The company reported creating 4,231 jobs — the highest number listed in the first stimulus accounting — even though 3,000 of those workers received a paycheck for five weeks or less.

"We all felt it was an appropriate way to represent the data at the time," company president Mariano Tan said.

Now the job count is being adjusted to less than 1,000, Tan said, to meet the requirement that a job reported is equal to a full-time, 40-hour-a-week position held for one year.

The Toledo, Ohio-based Koring Group also received two FCC contracts to help people make the switch to digital television. The company reported hiring 26 people for each of the two contracts, bringing its total jobs to 54 on the government's official count.

But the company cited the same 26 workers for both contracts, meaning the same jobs were counted twice. The job count was further inflated because each job lasted only about two months, so each worker should have counted as one-sixth of a full-time job.

The FCC spotted the problem and called company owner Steve Holland, who now says the actual job count is closer to five, not 54.

"We're just trying to be accurate. All of this has happened so fast," Holland said. "It is a little confusing. We're new to government contracting."

The AP's review identified nearly 600 contracts claiming stimulus money for more than 2,700 jobs that appear to have similar duplicated counts.

DeSeve said he's pleased that the FCC and other agencies are working with businesses to fix the errors.

Barbara Moore, executive director of the Child Care Association of Brevard County in Cocoa, Fla., reported that the $98,669 she received in stimulus money saved 129 jobs at her center, though the cash was used to give her 129 employees a 3.9 percent cost-of-living raise. She said she needed to boost their salaries because some workers had left for better paying jobs.

"They were leaving because we had not been able to give them a raise in four years," Moore said.

Officials at East Central Technical College in Douglas, Ga., said they now know they shouldn't have claimed 280 stimulus jobs linked to more than $200,000 to buy three semi-trucks and trailers for commercial driving instruction, and a modular classroom and bathroom for a health education program.

"It was an error on someone's part," said Mike Light, spokesman for the Technical College System of Georgia.

The number of jobs should be zero, Light said. The 280 count represents the number of students who would benefit, he said.

The San Joaquin, Calif., Regional Rail Commission reported creating or saving 125 jobs as part of a stimulus project to lay railroad track. Because the project drew from two pools of money, the commission reported that figure twice, bringing the total to 250.

Spokesman Thomas Reeves said the commission corrected the data Tuesday and changed the total to 73, although the count is not corrected in the government's official job tally. He said officials incorrectly added some indirect job creation to reach its initial 125 total. He said the number should not have been doubled.

DeSeve said he's confident the job counts in the first report will be corrected and future reports will have fewer errors.

"What we want is the most accurate total available," he said.

© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (180)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2
ashliegh

LOL, !!!!!!!

I don't discredit the Administration from using the available input from the job sector, yet, Dan Rather got ah! ................. "Fired", .............. for not checking his facts, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, !

Oh did, I say lol, lol, lol, lol, ?

Take back the ............... $ .......100, .............. Billion, ................ yes I said ...............Billion, ......this .............. "Rube" ..................... gave the IMF when he took office, for any ignorants out there the IMF is the International Monetary Fund.

The United States used to give 6 Billion a year to the IMF.

Obama while on his appology tour of the world, .............. increased this amount to $100 Billion of your freaking tax dollars that none of us have earned yet.

Freaking dumb people shouldn't be allowed to vote ! Or make them alone carry the finacial burdens/promise's to non-citizens, of the phalctic they voted into office

Oh did I say, Laugh out Loud !

  • 15 votes
#1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:43 AM EDT
The Observer

Message to Obama: YOU LIE!

  • 20 votes
#1.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:46 AM EDT
tangojones

Rhode Island: 6 new jobs created - (that's SIX)...lol

Thanks, 'bammy!

  • 12 votes
#1.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:35 AM EDT
Simplistic Reality

Bull@!$%# you CAN'T BELIEVE IN! Yet the lemmings do! All hail the Obama supporters / Democrats. Biggest lemmings of them all! Keep "Hoping" and "Change". Say that over and over again and maybe some God will grant your wish. lol. When it doesn't... we welcome you back to reality.

  • 13 votes
#1.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:45 AM EDT
Buckeye Voter

Some businesses actually undercounted jobs funded with stimulus money, the AP's review shows, because they reported only new jobs created, not existing jobs saved. But by far the most reporting errors were found in the number of jobs credited to the stimulus.

So businesses misreport the data to the government and somehow this is Obama's fault?

You're embarrassing yourselves, you know that?

  • 8 votes
#1.4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:59 AM EDT
charnello

They're too busy gloating to notice that tiny detail.

  • 6 votes
#1.5 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:20 AM EDT
Quid est Veritas

Buckeye, these guys are right you know when we calculate gdp there is no reason we include infrastructure input their is no need for it in a downward slope. All these people with Phd's in economics and our own history of economic downturns telling use to spend is just bad logic we should have let simply, tangojones and all the other fine folks just let the downward slope come back on its own. If President Hoover was still alive we could ask him how that worked out.

  • 6 votes
#1.6 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:22 AM EDT
Darthfrodo

Well????? I see it as: At least Obama's 'bad intelligence info' isn't getting Americans killed needlessly.

Vote Independent. They can't be any worse, and might do better. (Except Liebermann)

  • 5 votes
#1.7 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:05 AM EDT
Matt in MN

So businesses misreport the data to the government and somehow this is Obama's fault?

You're embarrassing yourselves, you know that?

So the government didn't check to make sure the jobs that were being reported were accurate? Or the money that was given had some accountability behind it?

I'd bet if the #'s came in much lower than what the administration was advertising, we'd be discussing a congressional investigation. Because the numbers came in and it looked like the stimulus was working as intended - no one is going to investigate anything...Including the accuracy of the reported numbers.

  • 4 votes
#1.8 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:45 AM EDT
Buckeye Voter

So the government didn't check to make sure the jobs that were being reported were accurate?

How much money do you want to spend rifling through the books of private companies to make sure they aren't screwing up their reports?

You don't spend a dollar to save a dime.

  • 5 votes
#1.9 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:18 AM EDT
Dr Know

See! We created 4000 jobs. Give us MORE money....

  • 3 votes
#1.10 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:52 PM EDT
janice22

You don't spend a dollar to save a dime.

Nope, you spend a billion.

  • 4 votes
#1.11 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:44 PM EDT
800 lb. gorilla

actually, 25,000 or 26,000 jobs. it was 30,000-4,000, not the other way around.

  • 1 vote
#1.12 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:27 PM EDT
tangojones

They should have handed the trillion dollars to ME. With no particular outstanding business acumen, I assure you I would have been able to create more jobs than O and co. And they would be permanent, long-lasting, self-sustaining, higher quality private sector jobs, not make-work temporary govt. jobs.

  • 4 votes
#1.13 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:16 PM EDT
Simplistic Reality

So businesses misreport the data to the government and somehow this is Obama's fault?

Would of been Bush's fault. Wouldn't want a double standard now would we....

  • 5 votes
#1.14 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:51 PM EDT
800 lb. gorilla

sr

deflection is a poor debate technique. you are warned.

    #1.15 - Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:29 AM EDT
    Matt in MN

    How much money do you want to spend rifling through the books of private companies to make sure they aren't screwing up their reports?

    Like I said, if the numbers came in significantly lower than the predicted, we would have spent millions to investigate where the money went. Because the numbers came in and made the administration look good, there was no need to investigate.

    You don't spend a dollar to save a dime.

    We're not talking about saving any money. We're talking about accountability, something that's lacking in this administration as it was lacking the previous administration.

    • 1 vote
    #1.16 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 1:15 PM EST
    800 lb. gorilla

    matt

    the accountability is needed from the private sector and the public sector. the municipalities where the jobs have been saved are the ones reporting the numbers. the federal government does attempt to verify the claims made by local government and private industry, but it costs money to look into it. the federal government just added up the numbers sent in by these entities and attempted to find mistakes.

      #1.17 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 1:50 PM EST
      Matt in MN

      the accountability is needed from the private sector and the public sector. the municipalities where the jobs have been saved are the ones reporting the numbers. the federal government does attempt to verify the claims made by local government and private industry, but it costs money to look into it. the federal government just added up the numbers sent in by these entities and attempted to find mistakes.

      Are you arguing that had the numbers been reported accurately the federal government would not have launched an investigation totalling millions of dollars to find out the stimulus didn't create as many jobs as they "sold" the American public?

      I agree there should have been accountability (maybe even honesty) on the part of private corporations. However, I also must caveat that by saying, had they reported honestly and accurately they stood a high probability of being raked over the coals by congressional hearings. Can't say I blame them, I would have lied in their position as well.

      The nice thing about dealing with corporations is that you can predict their actions based on what benefits them the most. I'm not a man of above average intelligence and I can figure this out, why is it that the federal government can't?

      • 1 vote
      #1.18 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 2:01 PM EST
      800 lb. gorilla

      matt

      they know this and that is why they do the accounting, but it takes time. it would be nice if corporations and state governments would not lie to get more funding. all in all, though, many jobs seemed to have been saved or created (660,000-1,000,000 so far), even if the numbers are way off.

        #1.19 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 2:12 PM EST
        Matt in MN

        Eh, I don't buy into the "saved" jobs #'s at all. That's like saying what Bush did protected the country from another attack. No one can prove either one.

        I look at how many jobs were created, then I'll look in another 2-3 years to see if those jobs are still there before I come to any decision on the success or failure. Anything less is 0 sum and shouldn't be counted.

        I guess I'm just more cynical than you are. I don't believe after Obama "sold" the stimulus as creating x amount of jobs, that anything less than that was going to be acceptable, and anything more than that would not be questioned.

        • 1 vote
        #1.20 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 2:25 PM EST
        800 lb. gorilla

        i just want jobs to be created. if they miss that 3.5 million goal by one million, then i will say that, at least, 2.5 million jobs were created. which is funny because usually i am more pessimistic than that. however, in this case, i think that any job saved or created is good. yes, the country is that desperate.

          #1.21 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 2:43 PM EST
          Matt in MN

          Well, I guess it depends on your measure of success.

          Does spending $X billions translate to success if N amount of jobs are created?

          When the 3.5 million number came out, I actually thought it was extremely low. Some reports were saying it was like $435,000.00 per job. I thought it was a good move to underestimate at the time...Now I'm not so sure (they were underestimating), and I'm skeptical of the actual value the stimulus provided. It may, in the long run, do more harm than good.

          But, as I said, I'm reserving judgment for about 1.5 to 2.5 years.

          • 1 vote
          #1.22 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 3:09 PM EST
          800 lb. gorilla

          actually, 3.5 million divided into $800,000,000,000 comes out to $228,571 (which is a lot) and that is assuming that the only thing that the stimulus does is create jobs. don't believe the hype. for instance, the millions that my county has received in stimulus funding for the schools and the highways probably hasn't increased jobs that much, but it has helped and we needed it. the success of the stimulus should not just be measusred in job creation.

            #1.23 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 3:16 PM EST
            Reply
            Raymond Max

            Congratulations to Brett for a well written article. It is not often( Once) that I find value in an A.P. report.

            In my most humble opinion, The misinformation reported by companies that received stimulus funds from the Fed, is nothing short of fraudulent.

            To labble these fictitious reports as " Mistakes" is ludicrous.

            I believe the people of the U.S. deserve more than this. " A step towards the Presidents goal of creating 3.5 million jobs by the middle of 2010" Give me a break Mr. President. This is absolutely pitiful.

            R.Max

            • 18 votes
            Reply#2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:46 AM EDT
            Dr Know

            Reagan said "Trust but verify". It is the duty of the Administration to verify the use of the taxpayers money. It is not like they do not know business lies to them.

            • 6 votes
            #2.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:53 PM EDT
            Raymond Max

            That's the purpose of the audit Dr.

            Verify the reported job increase before extending more stimulus based loans to business..

            Reagan also said " Give one up for the Kipper" , Or was it Gipper ?..

            • 1 vote
            #2.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:00 PM EDT
            800 lb. gorilla

            2/3 of a million to a million jobs so far. it is a good step towards 3.5 million.

              #2.3 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 2:13 PM EST
              Reply
              380steve

              Behold the pathological liar. Barack Hussein Obama. mmmmmm, mmmmmm, mmmmmm

              • 16 votes
              #3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:48 AM EDT
              800 lb. gorilla

              ...and this shows that obama lied in what way? he did not do the count himself, and it is yet to be seen how many jobs will be saved or created.

              • 2 votes
              #3.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:06 AM EDT
              mardigan

              If the Obama Administration is reporting numbers given to it without checking those numbers, are they not as culpable as those employers/companies/states providing those numbers?  Of course, the President wants those numbers to be true!  It is the ONLY way he can say that his strategy is working.  It is the same old crap that has been going on in our government for decades by all parties!!!  Change?  I think not...

              • 4 votes
              #3.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:32 AM EDT
              800 lb. gorilla

              mardigan

              while his administration has certainly jumped the gun on the jobs count, obama is probably not doing the qa/qc of the data himself. when people scream that obama lies, it is a bit disingenuous. of course, he wants the numbers to be right. i think that we all do, or want them to be even higher, but via a truthful count.

              • 1 vote
              #3.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:51 AM EDT
              mardigan

              You are right, Obama does not make the count himself. But he is responsible for everything his STAFF, APPOINTEES, and anyone he employs that invokes the name of the White House reports, right?

              • 6 votes
              #3.4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:34 AM EDT
              800 lb. gorilla

              yes, but if they jumped the gun, then he can bash them as well, and i do believe he said that some mistakes were made.

              • 3 votes
              #3.5 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:55 AM EDT
              mardigan

              First of all, 30k jobs saved or created should have been an embarassment to even announce, especially when there were over 500k new filers for unemployment this month!

              Second, before that embarassing mistake was made, perhaps someone, maybe the "Czar of Counting" should have scrutinized the numbers and said, "You know what, these are not right and are going to make us look bad in the end. How about I review this, Barry and make sure it doesn't come back and kick us in the seat of our pants?"

              Shrug. Whatever. I take several grains of salt with anything that comes out of Washington anyways, no matter who is in charge :P

              • 4 votes
              #3.6 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:31 PM EDT
              800 lb. gorilla

              mardigan

              it is wise to take everything you hear with a grain of salt. the way things are going, i will not even be able to believe the words out of my own mouth eventually.

              • 1 vote
              #3.7 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:29 PM EDT
              tangojones

              "Czar of Counting"

              LOL

              I wonder how many "czar" positions he's saved or created?

              • 2 votes
              #3.8 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:23 PM EDT
              Give Me Break!

              800lbgorrilla, You only need to go back and listen to Obama's speaches to the dumbed down' in this country that voted for the socialist organizer with no experience. It should become "transparently" clear he's a pathalogical lier when looking at his actions in his first year. But i can't and wont hold my breath thinking the "koolaid drinkers" will figure it out" that they've been had! And if they do" it will be to late" damage done! Starting to look like a replay of Carter/ Reagan and prosperity to me!

              • 5 votes
              #3.9 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:40 PM EDT
              380steve

              800 lb. gorilla, Behold the pathological liar. Barack Hussein Obama. mmmmmm, mmmmmm, mmmmmm. That's just a caption for the photo. And known to be true to the most casual of observers.

                #3.10 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:37 PM EDT
                Quid est Veritas

                your wrong

                  #3.11 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:40 PM EDT
                  800 lb. gorilla

                  casual observers may think that obama is a pathological liar. it would take a psychiatric evaluation to actually prove it. if you really dig deep and do your research, you will see that on the major policy issues, he has stuck to pretty much what he said he would do. some are not really within his realm of responsibility. for instance, he can say that we will have health care reform, but it is up to the congress to get the job done. in that particular case, he can neither be a liar or have his words proven to be true. he is for health care reform, and that is true. can he make it happen alone? no. i do not believe that he ever said he could. if you find me a direct quote, then i would say that he lied. the same can be said for many of the criticisms and allegations that have been thrown at the president. people assume this large, suspicious connection to acorn. people believe he is pulling their strings, and yet, no one can provide substantial evidence to nail the guy. when that evidence comes in, and when he has had his day in court and has been convicted of a real crime (not some made up garbage), then i will be the first to cast a stone.

                    #3.12 - Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:36 AM EDT
                    Tiredofit-946833

                    HUMOR coming in now ! Lets get a bunch of politicians on the "Lie to Me" show and see what the "Lightman group" come up with ! These are the times I wish TV was real.

                      #3.13 - Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:39 PM EDT
                      800 lb. gorilla

                      mardigan

                      it was a sample.

                      First of all, 30k jobs saved or created should have been an embarassment to even announce, especially when there were over 500k new filers for unemployment this month!

                      the final numbers indicate between 660,000-1,000,000 jobs saved or created so far.

                        #3.14 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 2:15 PM EST
                        Dr Know

                        How can a job be considered to be "saved" if they just gave the job holder a raise? It would be "saved" if the person had received a pink slip then had it rescinded. I have yet to see any of those being reported.

                        • 1 vote
                        #3.15 - Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:32 AM EST
                        Reply
                        garyray-501488

                        A Colorado company said it created 4,231 jobs with the help of President Barack Obama's economic recovery plan. The real number: fewer than 1,000.

                        Once again, the private sector lies.

                        How can we trust the private sector? Who are these "people"? What are they doing to our country? What do they Want?

                        The private sector off-shores American jobs to communist china.....Why?

                        The private sector adds to the welfare roles when they off-shore jobs to foreign countries.

                        The private sector defrauds Medicare and Medicaid....Why?

                        The private sector rips off the taxpayer over and over again.....Why?

                        What will you do to stand up to these thugs? How about going to a "tea party" and spreading hate toward citizen owned government, think that will work?

                        Tell you what boys and girls. They got you blaming and hating the wrong "guy".

                        It time we end this blame America first crap. Its time we stand up and love our country.

                        These robber barrens are not your friends.

                        • 6 votes
                        Reply#4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:49 AM EDT
                        truthseeker9000

                        "They got you blaming and hating the wrong "guy".

                        Gary, without that hate they would be forced to discuss the topic on point.

                        The Observer
                        Message to Obama: YOU LIE!

                        380steve
                        Behold the pathological liar. Barack Hussein Obama.

                        www.politifact.com will show you guys how delusional you are if you care to educate yourselves.

                        • 5 votes
                        #4.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:29 AM EDT
                        Raymond Max

                        gray gray. We are the private sector.

                        The Day care center owner mentioned in this article is a small business owner that should not have been eligible for stimulus funds to begin with.

                        Example: there is an organic pig farmer across the road from me that applied for and was awarded $800,000 in the name of energy efficiency.

                        She is going to produce a methane generator with the pig @!$%# created by her live stock. Get it? The joke is on us , by us. "We the People" are the problem here.

                        The " Job creation" is falsified. But not by the Giant Corporations..

                        • 9 votes
                        #4.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:57 AM EDT
                        garyray-501488

                        mons max,

                        "We the People" are the problem here.

                        So what is the solution then?

                        • 2 votes
                        #4.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:37 AM EDT
                        garyray-501488

                        Gary, without that hate they would be forced to discuss the topic on point.

                        True. The blame America first crowd will do anything to avoid holding the private sector accountable.

                        • 5 votes
                        #4.4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:51 AM EDT
                        The Observer

                        To Truthseeker:

                        The government has overstated by thousands the number of jobs it has created or saved with federal contracts under the president's $787 billion recovery program, according to an Associated Press review of data released in the program's first progress report.

                        The discrepancy raises questions about the reliability of a key benchmark the administration uses to gauge the success of the stimulus. The errors could be magnified Friday when a much larger round of reports is released.

                        • 12 votes
                        #4.5 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:08 AM EDT
                        Tiredofit-946833

                        truthseeker9000

                        "They got you blaming and hating the wrong "guy".

                        Gary, without that hate they would be forced to discuss the topic on point.

                        The Observer Message to Obama: YOU LIE!

                        380steve Behold the pathological liar. Barack Hussein Obama.

                        www.politifact.com will show you guys how delusional you are if you care to educate yourselves.

                        YA I have read "info" on that site and well they aren't "all that" good stories for the left but I like to check out all sides of stories and well thats what politicalfact.com tells.
                        http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-vadum/2009/06/03/biased-politifact-com-covers-acorn-attacks-michele-bachmann

                        You can play the "google" game (thats what i call it) and find so many differing opinions on all these "political" know-it-all sites and will find them all as accurate as well FCN.

                        • 1 vote
                        #4.6 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
                        Raymond Max

                        4.3 Garyray. It's all social Welfare. The Stimulus was designed to raise the economy, while pushing the Tax burden forward.

                        It is a ten year program. tracking it's effectiveness is another matter. The solution to the problem mentioned in the article is, Greater accountability of those that receive stimulus.

                        By the way, Good luck to those small businesses in paying back the Fed.

                        • 2 votes
                        #4.7 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:01 PM EDT
                        truthseeker9000

                        Tiredofit-946833

                        You can play the "google" game (thats what i call it) and find so many differing opinions on all these "political" know-it-all sites and will find them all as accurate as well FCN.

                        You're absolutely correct, and a quick search of matthew vadum (I couldn't get your link to work) shows he is a senior editor for the conservative CRC. So my advice to you would be to play your "Google game" but stick to the Pulitzer Prize winning sources.

                        • 2 votes
                        #4.8 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:56 PM EDT
                        Darkdonnie

                        This certainly should put a nail in the coffin of any future stimulus! Right?

                        Unless you rename it what it is, PAYOFFS!

                        • 5 votes
                        #4.9 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:10 PM EDT
                        Give Me Break!

                        Garyray,The private sector is not the enemy" Non Frindge Media:News flash to Garyray!

                        The Enemy is the "Socailist left Democrats" in our Government, there point man is Obama! We want Business & Free Market to succeed and prosper, thats starts with government getting off the backs of business, bad regulation policies, high taxes do not build job groth in economy. If you have a 401-k you future depends on the companies your plan is vested in doing well!

                        We are all going to pay a high price in this country for people like yourself voting for Obama' and not having any clue just what kind of "Change" he was talking about.

                        Please" educate yourself and that don't start with the liberal media in this country!

                        • 1 vote
                        #4.10 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:19 PM EDT
                        garyray-501488

                        The Enemy is the "Socailist left Democrats" in our Government, there point man is Obama!

                        Stop promoting sedition.

                        I will assume then, since you failed to address the issues and concerns I raised in post #4 that:

                        You support off-shoring jobs to communist countries

                        You support the private sector defrauding of Medicare and Medicaid

                        That you support increasing well-fare rolls do to private sector off-shoring of American jobs.

                        .....And in general, support the private sector ripping off the American tax payer.

                        It is very possible that you are a paid hack for the private sector and are paid to divert citizen's attention away from private sector rip-offs, of our citizen owned government.

                        In general..just another blame America first, propagandist.

                        • 2 votes
                        #4.11 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:23 PM EDT
                        Give Me Break!

                        I said nothing about offshore jobs to the commi's, You know how many jobs were lost to Bill Clinton signing N.A.F.T.A. into law back in Nov,93. Without the 2/3 vote of senate, using power of executive order and being against the constitution i might add. well it was Hundreds of thousands' in fact my union U.S.W. sued in fed court in 1999 to abollish nafta.

                        Also' the one major thing i'm against is the citizen's getting ripped off' trust me pal! I am one getting taken" my job last Jan,23! This Government rips off the taxpayer 200 times more then everything you just brought to the table in your post! Government mis-management of Medicare, Medicaid, the pilfer of S.S. This damn government takes and takes" it's never enough! Your brainwashed by the punch' my friend if you think the private sector " FREE MARKET ECONOMY" is the problem and not government! Between the brainwashed obama-bot's, global warming lie backers, The Congress and Obama' i don't know who's the worst lier's?

                        • 3 votes
                        #4.12 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:37 PM EDT
                        garyray-501488

                        I said nothing about offshore jobs to the commi's, You know how many jobs were lost to Bill Clinton signing N.A.F.T.A. into law back in Nov,93.

                        I know you did not say anything against it, because you support communist countries ahead of America.

                        In your eyes the "private sector" can do no wrong...so, why not let them have access to commie cheap labor. The private sector bought Bill Clinton's signature. Its what you wanted.

                        The private sector bribes our government through lobbyists. How typical of a corporate hack to ignore it, and give the private sector a "pass".

                        Your deluded into thinking we have a "free market economy". Private sector lobbyists buy and bribe their way. It is a "bought" market.

                        Further more you are guilty of hypocrisy. Why would you whine about Bill Clinton signing NAFTA? Its a "free market" economy right? So we have "free trade" in a "free market". Why would you complain, you got what you wanted for your dear beloved private sector.

                        You just pretend to blame the government, your not serious. You love the government because it takes private sector bribes. Bribes you implicitly condone with your failure to hold the private sector accountable.

                        Your misplaced rage at the government is just an act. Maybe you own a company that miss-bills the government or Medicare or Medicaid. You love the government, its your feeding trough.

                        Taxpayers have had enough of being ripped off by private sector thieves.

                        • 1 vote
                        #4.13 - Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:27 AM EDT
                        Reply
                        USAF Vet-923294

                        I hope they get these numbers fixed. This sort of thing can lead to wasted tax dollars and fraud. Those are the last things we need.

                        • 6 votes
                        Reply#5 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:50 AM EDT
                        Asylum Keeper

                        I agree, The other last thing we need is for the Chicago machine politics to take root in our Central Government.

                        • 6 votes
                        #5.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:01 AM EDT
                        Buckeye Voter

                        Agreed. There's always waste, fraud and abuse when a lot of money is sloshing around. Doesn't matter if it's taxpayer money or corporate funds. That's not to say that the government doesn't have to be extra vigilant in protecting the interests of the public. That's their duty - to us.

                        • 7 votes
                        #5.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:02 AM EDT
                        vol fan in chatt, tn

                        the whole thing is a waste and a fraud. This is what happens when people lose their moral compass - government lies and people lie all in the name of greed. You can't just throw money at problems and expect them to get fixed. It only exacerbates it.

                        We spend how many billions of dollars for 25,000 jobs? Absolutely pathetic!

                        As James Madison said:

                        “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

                        We have certainly gotten far, far away from those principles of goodness and morality, which is why we are where we are today.

                        • 8 votes
                        #5.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:13 AM EDT
                        Give Me Break!

                        I don't think "we" the people have gotten away of the principles of goodness and morality as much as our elected leaders have. They sure don't care when it comes to whats best for the people and the country. Or working within the ideals of our founding fathers! Thats why "we" the people need to remind our government next election who they work for and throw them all out of office! Then work on the only thing i feel will bring real "CHANGE" in our government. Ending the career politician & special interest groups that breed nothing but corruption throughout our government!! The people don't demand that change in government' nothing will change!!!

                        • 2 votes
                        #5.4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:59 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        KS Brea, CA

                        I was hoping the stimulus would be an example of government executing successfully on a program. They have big plans for health care, but again, it is the execution of those plans which worried me

                        • 7 votes
                        Reply#6 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:02 AM EDT
                        vol fan in chatt, tn

                        If this is a forerunner of what they will do to healthcare, we are in trouble. Well, then again, we already know Medicare will be bankrupt in the next several years....and they want us to believe they can fix this??

                        • 8 votes
                        #6.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:15 AM EDT
                        rhondamom

                        That's the biggest question I have for those who want to give the government control of the healthcare industry! LOOK at Medicare!!! LOOK AT IT! It's BROKE! Why would you give the same people control over the rest of our healthcare??? If they had come in, fixed the Medicare problem (or at the very least stopped the fraud) I would be more willing to listen to them.

                        Sorry, I know that was off topic but it makes me CRAZY!

                        • 3 votes
                        #6.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:50 PM EDT
                        vol fan in chatt, tn

                        thank you rhondamom, exactly what people don't get! And why they don't get it, I dunno!

                        • 2 votes
                        #6.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:08 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        Dr Know

                        "Change we can believe in...."

                        • 10 votes
                        Reply#7 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:09 AM EDT
                        Raymond Max

                        Punny Dr. Know, Very punny..

                          #7.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:00 AM EDT
                          Reply
                          Dryver008

                          Just more misinformation and deception from this administration. We've become used to it by now. The real truth will be in next year's elections. We'll see how popular the democrats are when we find out how many seats they'll lose in the House and Senate.

                          • 6 votes
                          Reply#8 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:16 AM EDT
                          Buckeye Voter

                          Just more misinformation and deception from this administration.

                          Where do you get that? The misinformation is coming from the companies enjoying the public funds.

                          Kudos to the government for trying to keep close tabs on what we're getting for our cash.

                          Fie on those businesses who lie and steal from us all.

                          • 3 votes
                          #8.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:05 AM EDT
                          Dryver008

                          "Where do you get that?"

                          Buckeye do you really want to go there? Cuz I can go on for pages.

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:32 AM EDT
                          dontbh8n

                          Kudos for trying and failing? Sortta like the little league games where they no longer keep score, so little Johnny's feelings don't get hurt. Fie on a government that wastes taxpayers money on programs they can't even monitor and manage.

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:55 AM EDT
                          ATCS USN Ret

                          Kudos to the government for trying to keep close tabs on what we're getting for our cash.

                          How did you get that out of this article? From what I read, the government jumped on numbers that looked good without checking their authenticity, and took credit for being "successful". And they're going to report more number tomorrow. I wonder if they will delay reporting those until they have been verified or just report them and "hope" for the best.

                          • 3 votes
                          #8.4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:23 AM EDT
                          Tiredofit-946833

                          "From what I read, the government jumped on numbers that looked good without checking their authenticity, and took credit for being "successful"." So true and when FOX does that it is a bad thing ! LOL all this "pot calling kettle" stuff just makes me laugh till I cry!

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.5 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:47 AM EDT
                          800 lb. gorilla

                          it may be that the businesses are falsifying the numbers. shame on our government for trusting private industry. i have seen it doen locally with small business loans. they are supposed to create jobs, but they just play a numbers game.

                          • 3 votes
                          #8.6 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:58 AM EDT
                          Dryver008

                          Our govt highballed the numbers to give the illusion of a recovery and they got caught. Shame on you Mr. President.

                          • 2 votes
                          #8.7 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:25 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          VerbalHarpoon

                          Is anyone suprised the governments' figures are unreliable? Info coming from the same people who say things are improving is a liar. All you need to do is look at whats happening around your town. More homeless people in the streets does not mean un-employment went down,more people pilfering my recycling trash does not mean manufacturing is up. The government is like the weatherman sitting in an office without windows. They have no idea what is going on outside their room,but they have lots of educated people coming in to tell them things are getting better.

                          • 7 votes
                          Reply#9 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:23 AM EDT
                          Kshark

                          This is comical to say the least.

                          So now where exactly IS the money that was "used" to do whatever, but apparently never did????

                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#10 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:27 AM EDT
                          Asylum Keeper

                          The Acorn fell from the tree, The Money is sitting in a safe at DNC Headquarters awaiting to be deposited into a secret account in one of the few Swiss Banks that won't disclose the accountants name. Just check the safety deposit box next to the Nazi Criminals deposit box. This is purely speculation but don't put it past them.

                          • 3 votes
                          #10.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:59 AM EDT
                          Reply
                          Asylum Keeper

                          So where are the jobs for the new green revolution? Can you say China, India, Brazil? The Chicago Machine isn't so clean after all. Face it people, that is what we have currently, a nationalized version of the Chicago Machine Political games. 2012 lets put garbage back in it's place, back onto the shores of Lake Michigan where it belongs, then lets work on putting it into a Federal prison next.

                          • 5 votes
                          Reply#11 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:50 AM EDT
                          TruerWordsWereNeverSpoken

                          Pelosi's scam on the american public endorsed by Barry. And people wonder what the teabagger's were upset about. This administration is FUBAR.

                          • 6 votes
                          Reply#12 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:59 AM EDT
                          Ebeneezer Goode

                          I didn't wonder what the teabaggers were upset about. I figured it had something to do with them not taking their medication.

                          • 3 votes
                          #12.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:56 AM EDT
                          Reply
                          Bill Pitcher

                          Once again Small busineses lie as they play the federal government for more money and tax breaks.

                          They are defrauding the government as it tries to help them. IMHO these liars need to be sent to prison for defrauding the government of the United States

                          • 2 votes
                          Reply#13 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:04 AM EDT
                          vol fan in chatt, tn

                          and what about the government defrauding the people that have to pay for this crap sandwich?

                          • 8 votes
                          #13.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:17 AM EDT
                          Reply
                          Dryver008

                          Prime example of a typical Obama deception. Cash for clunkers. 52% of the C4C sales were foreign cars. That means that more than half of the stimulus that was meant to help our economy really went on to stimulate Japan's economy instead. Why did Obama allow foreignn cars to be a part of the program? Because the WTO told him to that's why. Less than half of the money spent out on C4C went to assist domestic auto makers. People who took part in the program are also in for a rude awakening on April 15'th once they find out they're responsible for paying taxes on the 4000 or so odd dollars. The Obama administration lauded the C4C program as an overwhelming success. And America fell for it hook line and sinker.

                          • 6 votes
                          #14 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:05 AM EDT
                          brianandrew

                          I'm not being argumentative. I just want to know the right numbers so please don't get mad at me like the last person I tried having a civil conversation with. :)

                          Do you have a link for those numbers. Also, I know a lot of cars are till manufactured and put together in America despite the fact they are foreign owned. (sometimes the transmissions and engines are created elsewhere but I think even Ford, GM and Chrysler do this for some models).

                          This is a good chart

                          Anyways, part of my point is that even though you are buying for example a Nissan Altima it is still giving jobs to the workers at the factories in Canton, Miss and Smyrna Tenn. Also, you have employees that take care of computers, machines, janitorial, executives, accounting, secretary, mail, etc jobs that are available for Americans by purchasing this car or others that are not American but will last you more than 10 years if you want. I'm just wondering if we should take that into account as well when we say it "stimulate(s) Japan's economy instead".

                          • 4 votes
                          #14.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:22 AM EDT
                          Dryver008

                          It's public domain info, but if you insist. I even avoided links from agenda driven sites.

                          http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/08/feds-release-final-cash-for-clunkers-numbers.html

                          I understand you concept of the assembly jobs being done here in America. That's positive in a way. However the profit dollars and the actual stimulus from the sale of foreign cars went back to the country of ownership. Meaning domestic auto manufacturers didn't benefit from the bulk of C4C dollars.

                          Of those 690,114 transactions that took place. 350,000+ of the sales were foreign cars. Since the bulk of the dealers inventories were already overstock from overproduction and lack of traditional sales, it stands to reason there will not be as many new cars being assembled after all. The domestic automakers only benefited from half of the sales, not getting much of a stimulus after all. Once the smoke clears, folks still aren't buying cars, and domestic production has caught up with demand, we're pretty much in the same boat as we were prior to the C4C program. Meaning more domestic auto bailouts.

                          My concern is this. If this program was meant to stimulate our American economy, then why is our president caving into the WTO and including foreing autos too? China snubs the WTO all the time with no consequences. Why shouldn't we too?

                          • 4 votes
                          #14.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:45 AM EDT
                          Dr Know

                          Recent research suggests that only about 125000 of the sales under "Clunkers" were those that would not have occurred anyway. The price per CREATED sale? $28,000 of taxpayer money for $14000 cars.

                          • 1 vote
                          #14.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:02 PM EDT
                          800 lb. gorilla

                          dr

                          that number seems a little low. i, personally, know many people who bought cars during that period. a good friend of mine just got his vehicle the other day. his trade-in was garbage, but it still drove. he would have kept it, rather than trade it in for what he would have gotten.

                            #14.4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:32 PM EDT
                            Dr Know

                            There is an article elsewhere on the vine that details the amount of REAL NEW sales generated. It is not polite to post links.

                              #14.5 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:37 PM EDT
                              Raymond Max

                              Dear Dr Know. your a thinker, how can the $28,000 figure by correct?. $2000-$4000 clunker credit per vehicle. Please quantify the balance.. I'll take my answer in an E.Mail.

                                #14.6 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:45 PM EDT
                                Dryver008

                                http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/28/autos/clunkers_analysis/index.htm

                                Here's the article from CNN Money that breaks it down. See non agenda driven link. This article says that each car cost tax payers $24,000.00. Pretty astronomical considering the average price of the cars were what 15-20,000.00.

                                • 2 votes
                                #14.7 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:54 PM EDT
                                Dr Know

                                They did NOT consider the cars that WOULD have sold without the Clunkers program. The reason FOR the Clunkers was to stimulate NEW sales that would NOT have occurred without Clunkers. They were able to determine the number of sales that were actually GENERATED not accelerated by the program. This is the number that was used to determine the cost per car.

                                  #14.8 - Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:59 AM EDT
                                  Dryver008

                                  I tell you I was just watching CNN. The Obama administration is claiming they saved or created 660,000 jobs in the 3rd quarter. What's so odd about that claim is that every month at the end of the month job growth has been reported as negative. Unemployment is still hovering at 9.7-9.8%. Has this administration stooped to cooking the books and all out lying at this point to try and make folks that they are on point?

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #14.9 - Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:24 PM EDT
                                  800 lb. gorilla

                                  dryver

                                  they are actually compiling the numbers from all of the public and private entities that have received stimulus money. the numbers come from the companies, and local, and state governments. the administration basically attempts to verify and count them.

                                    #14.10 - Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:34 PM EDT
                                    Dryver008

                                    Much like they counted the totals in the article. Seems like overstatement is Obama's strong suit. We finally found something that he's good at.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #14.11 - Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:49 PM EDT
                                    800 lb. gorilla

                                    hey, even if they have to double the number to reach one million, that still means that half of a million jobs were saved or created. i know of a few jobs created or saved by stimulus funds coming to local schools and the highway department. hopefully, there will be more coming, and hopefully companies and local municipalities will not lie or cheat the system to get funds or extra funds. if they do, then may the administration catch them in the act of falsifying their records to get governement funding.

                                    how optimistic of me?!?

                                      #14.12 - Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:16 PM EDT
                                      Dr Know

                                      The examples were where the jobs reported were 4 times the actual number except for the ones that got raises that "saved" the jobs. The vast majority of the jobs will be created to expand the government.

                                        #14.13 - Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:39 AM EST
                                        800 lb. gorilla

                                        dr

                                        The vast majority of the jobs will be created to expand the government.

                                        i am not sure about that. where i live, all of the stimulus funds have gone into local schools and local government. while local government is, indeed, the government, i have a feeling that you meant the federal government. so, hopefully, jobs were created and saved at the local level.

                                          #14.14 - Thu Nov 5, 2009 9:35 AM EST
                                          Dr Know

                                          When the Feds give money to local governments there are always large strings attached... They are NEVER completely independent from that moment on.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #14.15 - Thu Nov 5, 2009 8:15 PM EST
                                          Reply
                                          screamingeagle_bct

                                          Don't worry folks...I know this is somehow Bush's fault...I just...can't...quite...fugure out how???!!!! Please somebody tell...Please tell me how I can blame Bush for this!!!!

                                          • 7 votes
                                          Reply#15 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:05 AM EDT
                                          VerbalHarpoon

                                          Perhaps this is the Bush administration thats still in effect? It makes everything alot easier when blame is placed on people who are no longer there. That way the current owners of a fiasco can get out of taking responsibility.

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #15.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:03 AM EDT
                                          Give Me Break!

                                          I'm sure Obama' will be coming out with that info on how its bush's fault in the coming days to deflect something away from him!

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #15.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:09 PM EDT
                                          Quid est Veritas

                                          your wrong

                                            #15.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:12 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            Kristy Sinsara

                                            BLAH BLAH BLAH when are we going to stop acting like we're shocked by the lies that are starting to come out of the woodworks? Really? The stimulus package didn't really help us? Thanks for the enlightenment. I thought we were all better off than we apparently are. Whew...thank god you let the cat out of the bag.

                                            JESUS. Get some common sense people. This administration is trying. But when we're at the bottom of the ninth and we're in the career building game of our life and whether or not we win or lose would affect MILLIONS...was it really a good idea to throw in the rookie?

                                            Probably not.

                                            Wow. Shocker.

                                            Kristy Sinsara

                                            The Consumer Advocacy Group

                                            • 4 votes
                                            Reply#16 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:23 AM EDT
                                            Kristy Sinsara

                                            Dear Kristy Sinsara, your comment you just made was the only thing that's ever made sense of this whole fiasco.

                                            Thanks Kristy.

                                              Reply#17 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:24 AM EDT
                                              Thomas Floyd

                                              Is anybody really surprised at this? Anyone with any common sense knew it wouldn't work to begin with. Bill C had things squared away, Bush screwed it all up and set the spiral in motion, and Obama is finishing it off. Face it folks, we're done. This is just one more piece of evidence that it's over. Only God can help us now, and I don' think he will.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#18 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:50 AM EDT
                                              Chuck101

                                              Thomas,

                                              For the sake of my newborn child and my family, I pray that you are wrong. Remember God, swayed his wrath on Sodom and Quality because of the prayer of one righteous man.

                                              We can turn this all around, I know it. We just have to start with isolating containing the evil king.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #18.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:00 AM EDT
                                              Thomas Floyd

                                              Umm Excuse me, but God destroyed both of those cities because Lot couldn't find one decent person. These are the times of the end Chuck. I don't mean that we are done as a people, but as a country, yes. The U.S. will never be the same.

                                                #18.2 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 7:44 AM EST
                                                Reply
                                                TheSkeptic-1418965Deleted
                                                spiffie

                                                A child care center in Florida said it saved 129 jobs with the help of stimulus money. Instead, it gave pay raises to its existing employees.

                                                Isn't "saving jobs" and retaining "existing employees" essentially the same thing? If the center didn't lay anyone off that they otherwise might have and retained employees who might have otherwise left, how is that misstating anything? Sounds like a reach, at least for this example.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                Reply#20 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:10 AM EDT
                                                dontbh8n

                                                Giving out raises does not equate to saving existing jobs, which is a b-s and unmeasurable metric anyway, thrown in by the govt to cover their behinds if the whole stimulus plan failed.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #20.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:48 AM EDT
                                                TheSkeptic-1418965Deleted
                                                Reply
                                                hww

                                                I am thinking that hope and change really ment You only have HOPE that when I am through with you that you will have some change LEFT.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                Reply#21 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:16 AM EDT
                                                spiffie

                                                Har har har. Never heard that one before. (Just in case: that's sarcasm, son.)

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #21.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:19 AM EDT
                                                Give Me Break!

                                                Don't listen to him' he's just bitter everythings not going as planned. Also' worrying about the Obama' and Liberals, sinking ship thats starting to spring leaks"

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #21.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:13 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                E_Ruff

                                                30,000, 20,000 or 50,000 jobs, what's the difference. I wouldn't be bragging about these numbers, I'd be embarrassed by them. Obbie spent approx. 26.2 million per job created. I'd hardly try to claim that as a success.

                                                For that same amount, 3 million small businesses could have recieved 260,000 dollars each. That would have created 10 million jobs. But the "stimulus" never was about job creation.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                Reply#22 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:32 AM EDT
                                                thinkingaboutit-475441

                                                "Let them eat cake" is their mantra. The more things change, the more things stay the same.

                                                  #22.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:59 AM EDT
                                                  OBAMA-FAN

                                                  E_ruff,

                                                  For that same amount, 3 million small businesses could have recieved 260,000 dollars each. That would have created 10 million jobs. But the "stimulus" never was about job creation.

                                                  On what planet would this be true? Anyone with a small business and the sense god gave an ant would know that $260K in a failing economy doesn't mean you go out and hire new personnel! You keep it in reserve to weather the economic storm! You don't increase your overhead! Your assessment is the equivalent of thinking that giving tax breaks stimulates the economy! Neither would work!

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #22.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:00 AM EDT
                                                  E_Ruff

                                                  Our company, which employs 14 people has weathered the recession quite well and with a 100,000 dollar investment would have been able to employ at least 4 more people.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #22.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:16 AM EDT
                                                  thinkingaboutit-475441

                                                  duplicate posting deleted by author

                                                    #22.4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:19 AM EDT
                                                    thinkingaboutit-475441

                                                    Think you're a little hard on E Ruff. It would depend on what business you have. I see a lot of fast food places doing good business. Auto repair eventually does well in a declining economy because people can't afford to buy newer cars. Guns and bullets seem to be hot business. Well, you get it.

                                                      #22.5 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:20 AM EDT
                                                      OBAMA-FAN

                                                      Our company, which employs 14 people has weathered the recession quite well and with a 100,000 dollar investment would have been able to employ at least 4 more people.

                                                      And that's fine, but in case you didn't hear there are a lot more companies that didn't weather the storm too well. The fact is, when people receive that $1,200 stim check in the mail they pay bills and put the rest in the bank! You can't rely on people who see a huge downturn in the economy to spend money! The same holds true with business! Unless you are a small company with large reserves, and can take the chance of expanded, you are a small business that rather be safe than sorry!

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      #22.6 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:30 AM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      OBAMA-FAN

                                                      recipients of the money provided incorrect job counts.

                                                      and

                                                      There's no evidence the White House sought to inflate job numbers in the report

                                                      So remind me again how this became and "Obama Lie!"???

                                                      • 3 votes
                                                      Reply#23 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:55 AM EDT
                                                      TheSkeptic-1418965Deleted
                                                      OBAMA-FAN

                                                      The Skep,

                                                      I get the impression if Obama told you the moon really WAS made of green cheese, you'd believe that fairy tale also.

                                                      And you'd be as wrong, ignorant and void of fact as the rest of your comment!

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      #23.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:25 AM EDT
                                                      Tiredofit-946833

                                                      Now now lets not jump all over poor O, You do know his wife is doing all she can to create jobs.......

                                                      Wow!!!

                                                      Here's a Change...

                                                      So nice to see the new administration living up to all their promises to clean up Washington .......

                                                      WOW--HERE'S A CHANGE

                                                      Subject: First Lady Requires More Than 20 Attendants.

                                                      No, Michele Obama does not get paid to serve as the First Lady and she doesn't perform any official duties. But this hasn't deterred her from hiring an unprecedented number of staffers to cater to her every whim and to satisfy her every request in the midst of the Great Recession. Just think Mary Lincoln was taken to task for purchasing China for the White House during the Civil War. And Mamie Eisenhower had to shell out the salary for her personal secretary.

                                                      How things have changed! If you're one of the tens of millions of Americans facing certain destitution, earning less than subsistence wages stocking the shelves at Wal-Mart or serving up McDonald cheeseburgers, prepare to scream and then come to realize that the benefit package for these servants of Miz Michelle are the same as members of the national security and defense departments and the bill for these assorted lackeys is paid by John Q. Public:

                                                      1. $172,2000 - Sher, Susan (Chief Of Staff)

                                                      2. $140,000 - Frye, Jocelyn C. (Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of Policy And Projects For The First Lady)

                                                      3. $113,000 - Rogers, Desiree G. (Special Assistant to the President and White House Social Secretary)

                                                      4. $102,000 - Johnston, Camille Y. (Special Assistant to the President and Director of Communications for the First Lady)

                                                      5. Winter, Melissa E. (Special Assistant to the President and Deputy Chief Of Staff to the First Lady)

                                                      6. $90,000 - Medina , David S. (Deputy Chief Of Staff to the First Lady)

                                                      7. $84,000 - Lelyveld, Catherine M. (Director and Press Secretary to the First Lady)

                                                      8. $75,000 - Starkey, Frances M. (Director of Scheduling and Advance for the First Lady)

                                                      9. $70,000 - Sanders, Trooper (Deputy Director of Policy and Projects for the First Lady)

                                                      10. $65,000 - Burnough, Erinn J. (Deputy Director and Deputy Social Secretary)

                                                      11. Reinstein, Joseph B. (Deputy Director and Deputy Social Secretary)

                                                      12. $62,000 - Goodman, Jennifer R. (Deputy Director of Scheduling and Events Coordinator For The First Lady)

                                                      13. $60,000 - Fitts, Alan O. (Deputy Director of Advance and Trip Director for the First Lady)

                                                      14. Lewis, Dana M. (Special Assistant and Personal Aide to the First Lady)

                                                      15. $52,500 - Mustaphi, Semonti M. (Associate Director and Deputy Press Secretary To The First Lady)

                                                      16. $50,000 - Jarvis, Kristen E. (Special Assistant for Scheduling and Traveling Aide To The First Lady)

                                                      17. $45,000 - Lechtenberg, Tyler A. (Associate Director of Correspondence For The First Lady)

                                                      18. Tubman, Samantha (Deputy Associate Director, Social Office)

                                                      19. $40,000 - Boswell, Joseph J. (Executive Assistant to the Chief Of Staff to the First Lady)

                                                      20. $36,000 - Armbruster, Sally M. (Staff Assistant to the Social Secretary)

                                                      21. Bookey, Natalie (Staff Assistant)

                                                      22. Jackson, Deilia A. (Deputy Associate Director of Correspondence for the First Lady)
                                                      There has never been anyone in the White House at any time that has created such an army of staffers whose sole duties are the facilitation of the First Lady's social life. One wonders why she needs so much help, at taxpayer expense.

                                                      Note: This does not include makeup artist Ingrid Grimes-Miles, 49, and "First Hairstylist" Johnny Wright, 31, both of whom travelled aboard Air Force One to Europe


                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #23.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:30 AM EDT
                                                      800 lb. gorilla

                                                      No, Michele Obama does not get paid to serve as the First Lady and she doesn't perform any official duties. But this hasn't deterred her from hiring an unprecedented number of staffers to cater to her every whim and to satisfy her every request in the midst of the Great Recession.

                                                      this has already been debunked. while she does have a bunch of staffers, it is actually one less than the former first lady and does not come close to the staff of ladybird johnson, or first lady kennedy. could it be less in these troubled times? sure.

                                                      • 5 votes
                                                      #23.4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:55 AM EDT
                                                      Tiredofit-946833

                                                      Description: Forwarded email
                                                      Circulating since: July 2009
                                                      Status: Partly true

                                                      Analysis: True enough, if you count the White House Social Secretary and her various deputies, First Lady Michelle Obama has a paid staff of at least 22 people, according to the 2009 Annual Report to Congress on White House Staff.

                                                      the debunked part was the reported numbers of staffers form previous first ladies which you will note I left off !

                                                        #23.5 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
                                                        800 lb. gorilla

                                                        right, but it is not without precedence. that is the talking point which i refute.

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #23.6 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:59 AM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        Braveheart50

                                                        Classic Democrat number crunching scam. During a Clinton census drive in the 80's, they hired tens of thousands of temporary employees, but, counted them as full time jobs, thus making slick willy look good, at least till we figured it out. Classic. For someone who was sent to us by God to bring Hope and Change, this president is certainly..."a run of the mill" political hack, not to mention corrupt beyond "usual standards". Thanks ACORN.

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        Reply#24 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:58 AM EDT
                                                        OBAMA-FAN

                                                        The "80's"??? Clinton wasn't president in the 80's. Get your decade straight! And while your at it, supply some facts to back up your claims!

                                                        • 3 votes
                                                        #24.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:06 AM EDT
                                                        Braveheart50

                                                        my bad....damn computer. The point remains.

                                                          #24.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:08 AM EDT
                                                          OBAMA-FAN

                                                          As does my point. Without something to validate your claim your comment is (for lac of a better word) worthless.

                                                          • 2 votes
                                                          #24.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:18 AM EDT
                                                          TheSkeptic-1418965Deleted
                                                          OBAMA-FAN

                                                          The Ske,

                                                          Typical Democrat ploy, right, Obama Fan? He misstated the decade (hitting an 8 INSTEAD OF A 9), Clinton being in office from 1994 to 2000. So you try to twist things around to suit your little private agenda.

                                                          What agenda? My agenda to have comments substantiated with facts? LOL

                                                          He didn't win on his own track record. He only won because of running against McCain and Palin.

                                                          So you're saying that Obama won because the Republican party could not produce a viable candidate? LOL Yeah and that will change in 2012 since your party imploded like a cherry bomb in a toilet! In order for the republican party to win the next presidential election Obama would have to fail miserably, and that is not going to happen! He has 3 plus years left in his term which translates in to a lot of time to keep hammering nails in the GOP coffin! Good luck with Bobby Jindal in 2012!! LOL

                                                          • 2 votes
                                                          #24.5 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:46 AM EDT
                                                          Reply
                                                          The Republic of Stupidity

                                                          And I trust you were all this upset when the Bush Admin was busy falsifying all sorts of data, including intelligence, lying its way into two wars they couldn't finish, and running up endless deficits the entire time bush was in office...

                                                          ***crickets...***

                                                          ***more crickets...***

                                                          Didn't think so... hypocrite much?

                                                            Reply#25 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:11 AM EDT
                                                            Braveheart50

                                                            I challenge you to provide evidence, sources and proof that this occoured. I will wait for your sources.....NOT Daily Koz crap.

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #25.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:15 AM EDT
                                                            The Republic of Stupidity

                                                            You're kidding, right?

                                                            Been in a coma the last 10 years?

                                                              #25.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:15 AM EDT
                                                              Braveheart50

                                                              Still waiting for your source. Perhaps an adjudicated court case, cheerp, cheerp, cheerp.

                                                              The choosen one......45% and falling. It's OK libs, we tried to tell you so.

                                                              • 3 votes
                                                              #25.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:17 AM EDT
                                                              vol fan in chatt, tn

                                                              come on, there, inquiring minds want to know?

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #25.4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:22 AM EDT
                                                              800 lb. gorilla

                                                              braveheart

                                                              so you still believe that there were weapons of mass destruction? you may be the last holdout.

                                                                #25.5 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:23 AM EDT
                                                                Braveheart50

                                                                I don't recall saying anything about that in my post. However,Gore both Clintons and the vast majority of the US Senate all did. But, that is another conversation.

                                                                I'm waiting for proof that GW "falsified" information. Real proof, sources, etc.

                                                                Ain't gonna happen.

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                #25.6 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:24 AM EDT
                                                                800 lb. gorilla

                                                                braveheart

                                                                the letter and witness that the cia used as evidence were fabricated. it may not have been done by bush himself, but his administration did conduct a war based on flase information. you said that the bush adminiastration did not falsify information. they are at least as culpable as the proof that you show for this job count thing. i suggest that the war is a much bigger coup than the job count numbers.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #25.7 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:01 AM EDT
                                                                vol fan in chatt, tn

                                                                your right, braveheart, ain't gonna happen. This is what some do: drop a bomb and then run and hide. It just another hit and run....with ZERO supporting fact. Get used to it!

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #25.8 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:12 PM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                Rob-510663

                                                                Does this really surprise anyone? I mean come on the government has been doing this for years going all the way back to the 70's. Why is everyone so upset. Remember two things, One follow the money and you will find the truth, and Two you get what you vote for. That is why if you really look at things there are no differences between "D" and "R" just the special interest and the power grabs.

                                                                This administration isn't any more transparent than any other ones and do not take responsibilty for anything wow sounds like the last administration.

                                                                And guess what the taxpayers are still paying the bills always have and always will.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                Reply#26 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:23 AM EDT
                                                                Braveheart50

                                                                Rob wrote: "This administration isn't any more transparent than any other ones and do not take responsibilty for anything wow sounds like the last administration"

                                                                The problem and supreme hypocrisy is that, this administration went out of there way to say....WE WILL BE THE MOST TRANSPARENT ADMIN...EVER, BLAH, BLAH.

                                                                This sets Obama and Pelosi aside as the biggest lying hypocrites in history with respect to openness.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #26.1 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:33 AM EDT
                                                                Rob-510663

                                                                Well I am not sure of that one, I may have been around longer than you but I have heard transparency since Carter after the Nixon debacles, and there is really no change no difference. To me the hypocrisy is the fact that the same people continue to get re-elected. As I stated you get what you vote for. Real change means we get rid of these people but my guess is in 2010 most will be re-elected because it is ingrained in many that you vote for what is after their name ("D" or "R") not what they stand for.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #26.2 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:39 AM EDT
                                                                Braveheart50

                                                                I agree with you Rob. My point was that Nancy Pelosi and the President both bragged (during the last pres campaign), that in fact, this would be the most transparent administration ever. Wrong. They turn off cameras, close doors, deny the Republicans access to meetings, and most importantly of all.....DO NOT PUBLISH legislation for 72 hours prior to voting on it, as promised.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #26.3 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:45 AM EDT
                                                                Rob-510663

                                                                I agree with you. I am just a small business man that has spent the last 25 years taking a company from nothing to 25 million. It just pisses me off to see this type of stuff happening. We the people have the ability to change it but we never do.

                                                                  #26.4 - Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
                                                                  VerbalHarpoon

                                                                  Its time lawmakers stop being political and start acting patriotic. What happened to the town hall meeting where you cozy up with a politican around a nice warm fire? I do notice they avoid going out in public on Halloween,but look closely,alot of costumes are real people after getting beat up by lawmakers. Goblins,vampires,witches,zombies..those are just average American people looking for work or trying to support their families. You'll notice lawmakers are very quick with passing the public option,but watch them run when it comes to public opinion. If I had the talent to cut and paste a picture of Pelosi next to Charles Manson,you could see only two differences. One ordered their followers to murder innocent people,the other has a swastika on their forehead.

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #26.5 - Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:42 AM EDT
                                                                  800 lb. gorilla

                                                                  vh

                                                                  pelosi=manson? that is a bit of a stretch.

                                                                    #26.6 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:23 AM EST
                                                                    Reply
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