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AP sources: House health bill totals $1.2 trillion

Mon Nov 2, 2009 6:27 PM EST
politics, us, health-care, barack-obama, overhaul
David Espo, AP Special Correspondent
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 5 photos
<p>House Speaker Nancy Pelosi of Calif. listens to House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer of Md. during a health care news conference on Capitol Hill in Washington, Thursday, Oct. 29, 2009. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)</p>

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi of Calif. listens to House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer of Md. during a health care news conference on Capitol Hill in Washington, Thursday, Oct. 29, 2009. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)

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WASHINGTON — The health care bill headed for a vote in the House this week costs $1.2 trillion or more over a decade, according to numerous Democratic officials and figures contained in an analysis by congressional budget experts, far higher than the $900 billion cited by President Barack Obama as a price tag for his reform plan.

While the Congressional Budget Office has put the cost of expanding coverage in the legislation at roughly $1 trillion, Democrats added billions more on higher spending for public health, a reinsurance program to hold down retiree health costs, payments for preventive services and more.

Many of the additions are designed to improve benefits or ease access to coverage in government programs. The officials who provided overall cost estimates did so on condition of anonymity, saying they were not authorized to discuss them.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has referred repeatedly to the bill's net cost of $894 billion over a decade for coverage.

Asked about the higher estimate, Pelosi spokesman Brendan Daly said the measure not only insures 36 million more Americans, it provides critical health insurance reform in a way that is fiscally sound.

"It will not add one dime to the deficit. In fact, the CBO said last week that it will reduce the deficit both in the first 10 years and in the second 10 years," Daly said.

Democrats have been intent on passing legislation this year to implement Obama's call for expanded coverage for millions, curbs on industry abuses and provisions to slow the rate of growth of health care costs nationally.

"Now, add it all up, and the plan I'm proposing will cost around $900 billion over 10 years," the president said in a nationally televised speech in early September.

Whatever the final cost of legislation, the calendar is working increasingly against the White House and Democrats. While a House vote is possible late this week, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., may not be able to begin debate on the issue until the week before Thanksgiving. Additionally, the Republican leader, Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, has hinted at efforts to extend the debate for weeks if not months, a timetable that could extend into 2010.

One casualty of the time crunch and threatened Republican delaying tactics may be formal House-Senate negotiations on a final compromise. An alternative is a less formal hurry-up final negotiation involving the White House and senior Democrats.

Pelosi and her lieutenants worked on last-minute changes in the measure to ease concerns among opponents of abortion and a contentious provision relating to illegal immigrants. Conservative Democrats have expressed concern about the cost of the bill, and an evening closed-door meeting gave the leadership its first chance to hear their response.

The bill includes an option for a government-run health plan.

The leadership can afford more than two dozen defections and still be assured of the votes to prevail on the bill, one of the most sweeping measures in recent years.

Republicans put the cost of the bill at nearly $1.3 trillion.

"Our goal is to make it as difficult as possible for" Democrats to pass it, House Republican leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, said at a news conference. "We believe it is the wrong prescription."

One day after announcing Republicans would have an alternative measure, Boehner offered few details. He said it would omit one of the central provisions in Democratic bills — a ban on the insurance industry's practice of denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing medical conditions. Instead, he said the Republicans would encourage creation of insurance pools for high-risk individuals and take other steps to ease their access to coverage.

Boehner also said Republicans would propose limits on medical malpractice lawsuits in what he said was an attempt to reduce the cost of coverage.

Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind., the third-ranking leader, said that Democrats looked at their bill as a way to advance universal coverage. In contrast, he said, Republicans "believe the real issue back home is cost" of insurance, and said their alternative would be designed to tackle it.

Democrats have made elimination of the industry's practice a linchpin of their drive to overhaul the health care system. The industry has said it would not fight the change, and an accompanying restriction on its ability to charge higher premiums for certain groups, as the legislation includes a requirement for individuals to purchase insurance. Lacking that, the industry says millions of relatively healthy individuals would refuse to pay for coverage until they became sick, and the cost of premiums would rise sharply for everyone else.

Republicans oppose any government requirements for individuals to purchase insurance or for businesses to provide coverage.

The Congressional Budget Office is seen by lawmakers as the arbiter of claims about the costs and effects of proposed legislation, and the agency has been under intense pressure in recent weeks to compete assessments on several bills circulating in House and Senate.

In a letter last week, the agency's director, Dr. Douglas Elmendorf, said the net cost of expanding coverage in the House measure was estimated at $894 billion over 10 years, a figure reflecting a gross total of $1 trillion in federal subsidies as well as other spending.

The letter contained no similar assessment for the balance of the legislation and it was not clear when or whether one would be forthcoming.

In a letter last week to Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., on the general subject of health care, Elmendorf cautioned that some provisions in legislation have elements that raise costs and elements that lower costs.

"Tabulating all of the aspects of the proposal that would, in isolation, increase federal outlays would be complicated and would require somewhat arbitrary judgments" about calculating overall costs, Elmendorf said.

© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (132)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2
Kathleen54

Horrors. All the fat-headed republican politicians have their knickers in a twist over health care expenditures. Too bad they weren't equally worried about this spending before they initiated a war in Iraq:

http://costofwar.com/

  • 12 votes
#1 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 6:49 PM EST
Lonnie-1003775

didn't the democrats vote for this "war" as well?

  • 20 votes
#1.1 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 6:52 PM EST
ComSen

didn't the democrats vote for this "war" as well?

That's an inconvenient truth.

  • 16 votes
#1.2 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:04 PM EST
RLWellman

Yes you are right. GWB spent too much money. But, BHO is making GWB look like a rookie when it comes to spending. Don't worry though, it's okay now because it's a democrat that's doing the spending!

  • 21 votes
#1.3 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:35 PM EST
ingenjon

Doesnt matter, neither side has shown any sign of being able to solve this mess.

  • 9 votes
#1.4 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:43 PM EST
JoulesBeef

didn't the democrats vote for this "war" as well?

That's an inconvenient truth.

another inconvenient truth is the dissenting views that Bush withheld from congress.
it's easy to condemn the dems for voting for war in iraq if you leave off the crucial bit of data, that BUSH LIED TO GET US INTO WAR.. by both withholding info and outright lying,, like the 16 little words that the cia told bush not to put in his state of the union.

  • 9 votes
#1.5 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:21 PM EST
Eric AlbertDeleted
JoulesBeef

And just a reminder folks...
the bush tax cuts cost us over 1 trillion over ten years.
remember folks bush gave us medicare plan d.. with no funding.. pure 100% deficit creating.
he also gave us no child left behind and medicare advantage.. with zero funding.. 100% deficit inducing.
Also Bush and the oh so fiscally responsible GOPRs got rid of "pay as you go" or paygo.. where you must actually find a way to pay for @!$%# you pass.
This was removed in 2002.. after the dot com bust.. after the recession.. and that was the last year we saw a surplus.

Really the gop have been so wrong for this country we can ignore their opinions.. they have proven they would rather harm the country than see obama succeed.. this is easily proven when you look at them go against their spoken ideology and try to protect medicare from cuts simply to harm obama.. despite for the past 40 years they have been trying to cut medicare.

THE GOP: BULL@!$%# YOU CAN NEVER BELIEVE IN>

  • 8 votes
#1.7 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:28 PM EST
Brandon-801865

Wasn't that the amount of the tax cuts for the richest 2% under Shrub?

I think it was.

How inhuman to provide healthcare to 50 million Americans....the rich may lose some luxury or something.

  • 8 votes
#1.8 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:31 PM EST
JACK DEATH

Wasn't that the amount of the tax cuts for the richest 2% under Shrub?

Yes and now you know why the Republikans are stark raving mad.

  • 7 votes
#1.9 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:34 PM EST
swcityDeleted
netprophet

It's not a defense to say that Bush was incompetent, so now it's the Democrats' turn to get a free pass for being incompetent. This really looks like a 'take from the rich and give to the poor' Robin Hood job. I'm not convinced that this will do anything to curb the skyrocketing cost of healthcare.

  • 7 votes
#1.11 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:43 PM EST
netprophet

relevant anecdote: I had an ER visit two months ago...they charged $13,000...health insurance paid $3000 and I paid $1000...the hospital wrote off the other $9000 and probably made $4000 tax free for doing a few tests with impressive looking cylindrical devices...I'm waiting for the time when I go to Burger King and they charge $50 for a cheeseburger, but accept payment of $1.00 and write off the other $49...does this bill do anything to address this con job???...I'm betting not...

  • 4 votes
#1.12 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:48 PM EST
ingenjon

The Republicans like it the way it is, the Democrats want to make it possible for us all to pay the bills...uhhh...

  • 4 votes
#1.13 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:55 PM EST
CEMANESDeleted
F-22-937412

wait, i thought the goal was to lower the cost of this bill, so far all i've seen is it growing bigger and bigger.

(And by the way, do two wrongs make a right people)

  • 6 votes
#1.15 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:48 PM EST
Wildcard-781265

Kathleen54

Dumbama tells the public 900 billion and it turns into 1.2 Trillion and all you can think of is the war costs from Bush, give it a brake already.

This idiot president could have pulled the troops out of there, but all he has been able to do is make matters worse here at home with his “Let’s throw money away like candy” it's not a problem, he knows the printer.

He has messed up everything else, why should this be any different, anyone have a idea how many 0 are in 1.2 trillion?

I would like to tell him where he can put his health care plan! Can he even spell his name right each time he writes it?

We need a new government in Washington, these dirt bags are killing the working man with bills, and this “health care plan” is to make sure everyone has insurance, but they forgot to mention that the same people it is to help have to pay this 1.2 trillion dollars back in taxes plus your insurance.

No one will be able to afford the insurance because they will be broke paying taxes, then they will fine you 2.5 % of your income because you don’t have INSURANCE, Thanks Dumbama and congress, but next time please use Vaseline or KY.

  • 4 votes
#1.16 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:57 PM EST
Jackson F.

Obama is spending more than Bush ever spent.

However, it is still troubling that there is that much spending going on from either party. Do no politicians realize that throwing money at something is not the way to go?

  • 7 votes
#1.17 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:07 PM EST
380steve

Mr. Obama. YOU LIE! In case any of you Libs are requesting a source look no farther than this article from the left leaning AP. The health care bill headed for a vote in the House this week costs $1.2 trillion or more over a decade, according to numerous Democratic officials and figures contained in an analysis by congressional budget experts, far higher than the $900 billion cited by President Barack Obama as a price tag for his reform plan. Mr. Obama YOU LIE AGAIN!

  • 8 votes
#1.18 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:15 PM EST
Raymond Max

Crap Johnie.. a bunch of unsubstantiated drivel spewed by an undisclosed source. Certainly not a quantifier for the cost of a proposed bill that has not made it out of committee. Thank you A.P. . I shall print this fine piece and line my birds cage with it.

  • 2 votes
#1.19 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:25 PM EST
380steve

RayMax, a bunch of unsubstantiated drivel spewed by an undisclosed source. according to numerous Democratic officials and figures contained in an analysis by congressional budget experts. I guess I should have put the whole quote in bold lettering to help you see through all your crap johnnie................numerous, experts, plural. Why don't you line your bird cage with photos of Obama..........

  • 1 vote
#1.20 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:55 PM EST
vol fan in chatt, tn

Thank you A.P. . I shall print this fine piece and line my birds cage with it.

finally AP has had enough of fawning press coverage. It only took them 10 months, better late than never.

  • 2 votes
#1.21 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:56 PM EST
swcityDeleted
maggiemay-596099

Do you have any ideal how much this equipment cost? Or how much it cost to repair?

  • 1 vote
#1.23 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:41 AM EST
maggiemay-596099

Do you have any ideal how much this equipment cost? Or how much it cost to repair?

    #1.24 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:49 AM EST
    Rhep

    remember folks bush gave us medicare plan d..

    ...

    this is easily proven when you look at them go against their spoken ideology and try to protect medicare from cuts simply to harm obama.. despite for the past 40 years they have been trying to cut medicare.

    lol

    • 1 vote
    #1.25 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 2:05 AM EST
    Aunk (The Cultural Health Guy)

    Hetep and Respect folks

    :

    AP sources: House health bill totals $1.2 trillion

    AP sources: Bush Wars total bill 10 trillion over 10 years.
    P.S. shut down one war, pay for Health care reform, everyone in no one out.
    Elect no Republican for 100 years.
    The best Democrats are Republicans who get sick.

    • 2 votes
    #1.26 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 3:41 AM EST
    Pacific Northwest Blogger

    So the house bill costs less over ten years than the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan over over a two year period.

    Consider where tax payer dollars go and the outcome.

    Spend on the 21st century Vietnam in the middle east (my apologies to the vets for this comparison) or spend it here at home keeping people healthy, which means more time to work, more productivity and a stronger economy?

    • 5 votes
    #1.27 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:00 PM EST
    bert2341

    Are those the only options? How about spending no money on either?

    • 2 votes
    #1.28 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 5:24 PM EST
    CW Blanchett

    please at the rate Obama, Pelosi and the rest of the far left are spending - they're making it look like Bush was shopping at Walmart. what they have spent thus far, is much more than Bush-

    • 2 votes
    #1.29 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 5:54 PM EST
    CEMANESDeleted
    swcityDeleted
    bert2341

    To be fair, presidents can only spend what the idiots holding the purse strings allow them to. For those of you unfamiliar with how government works, that would be the legislative branch.

    • 1 vote
    #1.32 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 4:57 PM EST
    CEMANESDeleted
    Reply
    dfizDeleted
    Joe-392005

    I need help!!!!

    There is suppose to be 46 million uninsured. How can you say on one hand this bill will cover 96% of all Americans then on the other hand say you will fine any who will not get insurance? What about the 4% you don't cover? Who are they? How can you fine those you won't cover? Crazy assestments seems to me.

    • 8 votes
    Reply#3 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:20 PM EST
    Chuckthefink

    Joe! Its not about healthcare! Its about Power! Liberals never get the figures right! 80% of americans like the care they have! PERIOD!!!! Liberals HATE that fact!

    • 10 votes
    #3.1 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:36 PM EST
    Just_Another_SheepDeleted
    Wildcard-781265

    Just_Another_Sheep

    It’s not going to pay for its self, the taxpayer is going to pay for it, that’s the part no one seems to get, this will be tacked on to your taxes, they are not about to pay it out of Washington unless they plan to continue to print money.

    • 2 votes
    #3.3 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:03 PM EST
    sweaver209

    Wait a minute, my understand from what i read earlier today on MSNBC, this bill was only going to cover the 20% of the people, the ones who were unemployed. Everybody else was going to have to keep their own insurance as long as they could.

      #3.4 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:17 PM EST
      hole_in_the_wall

      Yes, you pay for your insurance and then for another persons insurance by increased taxes. It is the only fair way to do it. Wait a sec? what?

        #3.5 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 6:24 PM EST
        CEMANESDeleted
        Reply
        Eric AlbertDeleted
        TheFounder

        Right now, health care expenditures total $2,400 per year per family of four. Under this plan, in six years that will rise to $6,000 per family. How in God's name is that reducing health care costs?

        If Congress were really serious about reducing health care costs, they would be addressing tort reform and going after the $80-plus billion per year lost by Medicaid and Medicare to fraud, waste and abuse.

        It should be obvious by now that this was never about costs. It is about expanding the power and control of the state over every aspect of our lives. It is about wrecking the economy by overburdening it with ever-increasing demands for welfare entitlements in the hope of fomenting social dislocation and bringing about a new, socialist order. This, after all was an early, stated goal of ACORN, taken from Saul Alinsky's "Handbook for Radicals," the blueprint for community organizers since the mid-60s. Our neophyte president's only jobs outside elected office were as a trainer, and later as a legal counsel for ACORN.

        Considering the radicals with whom Obama has populated the White House, can there be any doubt as to their intent?

        • 6 votes
        Reply#5 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:29 PM EST
        Repoman-1208817

        the current cost is 2400 annually? I did not know this. Basically it cost less for health care than a car, or a cell phone and cable combined, or groceries...

        So what I am reading is if people would put more value on their health than cell phones and cable we would have no need for government run health care.

        • 7 votes
        #5.1 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:19 PM EST
        swcityDeleted
        CEMANESDeleted
        sweaver209

        This is to cover the unemployed uninsured hispanics who fill the ER's with ever ill they can come up with. Our poor little community hospital has got no money hispanics coming out the doors having free babies, and flu shots, and all kinds of excuses for being there. Sit and talk to the addministrator, he's never seen anything like it in his 20 years at the job. He says It's all happened in the last two years.

        • 2 votes
        #5.4 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:25 PM EST
        common sense-457836

        That $2,400 figure is completely false and sweaver209 you are a blatant bigot. Keep it up, you're driving sensible minds out of the Republican party in droves.

        • 1 vote
        #5.5 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 2:12 PM EST
        CEMANESDeleted
        Reply
        TheFounder

        Right now, health care expenditures total $2,400 per year per family of four. Under this plan, in six years that will rise to $6,000 per family. How in God's name is that reducing health care costs?

        If Congress were really serious about reducing health care costs, they would be addressing tort reform and going after the $80-plus billion per year lost by Medicaid and Medicare to fraud, waste and abuse.

        It should be obvious by now that this was never about costs. It is about expanding the power and control of the state over every aspect of our lives. It is about wrecking the economy by overburdening it with ever-increasing demands for welfare entitlements in the hope of fomenting social dislocation and bringing about a new, socialist order. This, after all was an early, stated goal of ACORN, taken from Saul Alinsky's "Handbook for Radicals," the blueprint for community organizers since the mid-60s. Our neophyte president's only jobs outside elected office were as a trainer, and later as a legal counsel for ACORN.

        Considering the radicals with whom Obama has populated the White House, can there be any doubt as to their intent?

        • 3 votes
        Reply#6 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:31 PM EST
        TheFounder

        This is very weird. Every time I post a comment it posts twice. Sorry to any I've bored

          Reply#7 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:34 PM EST
          jinmeilpDeleted
          jeff-743600

          it dont really matter if your for or against it.its what our polititions want not the american people.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#9 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:25 PM EST
          jinmeilpDeleted
          UGG the hotDeleted
          malan

          For you math wizards out there:

          In one month, the cost of health care has only risen 25% to a cost of $1.2 Trillion so in ten years how much will it cost?

          • 4 votes
          Reply#12 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:42 PM EST
          Eric AlbertDeleted
          CEMANESDeleted
          Reply
          JPOK

          This is just another example of politicians putting politics ahead of the nation'swelfare. Palosi has no concern for the efficiency of the idiotic plan they're offering up. She, nor her family, will ever have to use it. If the Democrats proposal passes the smell test, why don't they all swear a pledge to use the government option health care plan and only that plan for themselves and their families?

          • 1 vote
          Reply#13 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:45 PM EST
          malan

          Because they support the two party system. The party for the politically connected and the party for the people who work for a living.

          • 2 votes
          #13.1 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:50 PM EST
          Eric AlbertDeleted
          malan

          Eric Albert,

          I intend to be one of the rich people who does not get stuck with the public plan. This will be the only way to choose the best doctors and health care.

          • 2 votes
          #13.3 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:58 AM EST
          CEMANESDeleted
          Reply
          jinmeilpDeleted
          Lonnie-1003775

          jouselsbeef. . . since I got ya here. I guess since ya hate bush so much. . what should be done with him having members of the bilderberg group that he had surrounded himself with ?

            Reply#15 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:59 PM EST
            Eric AlbertDeleted
            Reply
            John-1448023Deleted
            John-1448023Deleted
            Elvis-362920

            Now the the Democrats have power, they are not smart enough to control themselves. Everything that we were warned about their social spending thirst is true.

            I like the look on Nancy the multi-millionaires face. It reminds me of Alfred E. Newman's famous line. "what me worry?"

            More unbelievable change we can believe in.

            • 4 votes
            Reply#18 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:28 PM EST
            David Noah

            Is it any wonder why Pelosi wants this passed by the end of this week. Every two days the price tag goes up by 100 Billion dollars. Sounds like she has to get it passed before the true price tag comes out.

            • 3 votes
            Reply#19 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:56 PM EST
            American Fighter

            NANCY IS A BIT'CH!!!!!!!!!!

            • 2 votes
            Reply#20 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:03 PM EST
            Eric AlbertDeleted
            Reply
            Eric AlbertDeleted
            rebel-conf

            wow look at the pictue of pelosi i bet she put a povision in there fo her to get free plastic surgery on that mug. but the bigger picture is i shouldnt have to pay for all the lame welfare lazy fat overweight scum in this county .

            lord knows we have paid enough for the illegal scum in this country . and that will continue nobody can actually put an actual price tag on this junk .

            and obama thinks he,s funny as it wont go into effect till 2013 afte hes kicked to the curb and the next president will have to deal will this truck load of pure crap.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#22 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:33 PM EST
            vol fan in chatt, tn

            it wont go into effect till 2013 afte hes kicked to the curb and the next president will have to deal will this truck load of pure crap.

            the same thing he and his cronies complained Bush did to him..."I inherited this mess".

            • 1 vote
            #22.1 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:05 AM EST
            billy-witchdoctor-com

            any President who wants to claim they inherited this mess hasnt been paying attention or is just that inept that they should not be President. As President(a servant of the people) maybe it would best serve the country to plan to inherit a mess, and create a plan to deal with the mess.

              #22.2 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 3:10 AM EST
              Kathleen54

              Like that nasty balanced budget and surplus that GWB inherited from Clinton. It's good for us that he planned for that 'mess'.

              • 1 vote
              #22.3 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 5:23 PM EST
              swcityDeleted
              Reply
              YouLie-1337884Deleted
              Hope-882663

              My understanding is that Pelosi wanted to regulate health care costs in lieu of creating tax revenues from medical supply producers. To me, all that congress should be doing right now is regulating health care costs. How can it be beneficial to create government backed insurance for sky high prices? To me, people who fight against regulating health care prices are in favor of more bureauocracy and the potential for "pork".

              If they go ahead with this, do they know what the market is/will be? Will a person get coverage until they get an $8.00 an hour job or until they get their first raise? Will those eligible for tax rebates be able to afford the insurance up front and still afford their rent?

              How much better is unreliable health care than no health care? Will people be "approved" and "ineligilbe" from month to month?

              Why not just mandate that all payments to doctors has to be the same whether it's Medicaid, Medicare, Private, or Government backed insurance? That way, doctors won't have to overservice or "overbill" trying to help the less fortunate.

              Trying to set and manage a million parameters is going to cost a lot in bureauocracy.

              And collecting the money before the program can get put into action is a bad idea. How are they going to account for what they do with the money?

              And, why can't they talk about how cutting benefits for retirees will be beneficial? How will targeting seniors to get preventative care be beneficial to seniors who are already probably at a higher need for care due to the number of years they have lived?

              Would it be reform to tell people that are dying now that they are insured for Preventative Care? It almost sounds like paying for insurance that only pays if you're not sick or don't get sick.

              • 2 votes
              Reply#24 - Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:45 PM EST
              rachel-1448206

              Another example of wreckless spending.... i whole heartedly agree with you, Hope, why can't we just reform our current system. It may not be perfect, but we already KNOW it's weaknesses. NOBODY wants to go to VA hospitals because they are so horribly run. Why would we want more of that? Fix what we have FIRST. A non-politician could fix health care, welfare, etc and only use the money currently being WASTED to do so! I will NEVER vote for an incumbant again. In fact, I wish only TAX PAYERS were allowed to vote. It's OUR money after all; we should have full say how it is spent. How about a bill that states 'a person not contributing to the tax system in a given year has NO voting privilege'. Would solve alot.

              • 2 votes
              #24.1 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 1:01 AM EST
              vol fan in chatt, tn

              How about a bill that states 'a person not contributing to the tax system in a given year has NO voting privilege'. Would solve alot.

              I like that idea, that was sort of how it used to be, back in the day.

              • 2 votes
              #24.2 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 1:37 AM EST
              Reply
              saranyafa

              I don't think so

              http://www.rajagiriworld.com/beforeyouhavea-massage.html

                Reply#25 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 1:25 AM EST
                Mark-390433

                To President Obama and Speaker Pelosi:

                I implore you to redistribute half (only half) of your personal wealth to help fund health-care reform. Since you're both multimillionaires, you certainly can afford to lead by example. Perhaps George Soros, your cabinet members, Oprah, Shawn Penn and the rest of Hollywood will follow.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#26 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 2:02 AM EST
                greg-709692

                The health care bill headed for a vote in the House this week costs $1.2 trillion or more over a decade, according to numerous Democratic officials and figures contained in an analysis by congressional budget experts, far higher than the $900 billion cited by President Barack Obama as a price tag for his reform plan.

                Now President Obama should, maybe, possibly figure out Pelosi and Reid. Damn what the President says he wants "No increase in the defecit", Pelosi and Reid could care less. Hello Mr. President, "See what happens when you let others do the work you promised you'd do"!

                Makes them all Stupid!

                • 2 votes
                Reply#27 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 8:08 AM EST
                1Philosopher

                Self-centered and sefish people who fear the loss of their hoarded monies in the name of others less fortunate, will find ways and means to argue on any platform of "change". This is the essence of Conservatism--to conserve money wherever and however, no matter who dies, is killed or maimed in the name of "greed".

                I am not surprised nor astonished that we have so many people in this disgusting land of greed, who would quite literally be capable of looking a sick man or woman in the face, as they moan in canerous agony, for the lack of money they might have for pain killers of medicine. The A-Typical American today, my supposed Brothers and Sisters (yeah--right) have simply lost its collective abilities to fathom other's pain and suffrage--err, until it hits home, that is. We have lost our value of "life"--for some Hypocrits, who would kill an Abortion Doctor, but wouldn't feed a hungry adult............................@!$%# You. How's that?

                I am so sickened by our society today, that I could vomit. We have become little greedy Misers and Imps running around the world preaching a false gospel and fake image of ourselves.......................................we are Murderers, Thugs, Thieves and Scoundrels who'd sell our own Mothers for a buck called "Wall Street" and not give a @!$%#, as we watch children being raped and murdered.

                Is there something wrong with us--you damned right there is.............................it's called "Values" and we have NONE! We pay our Sports and Entertainment Demi-Gods all our money so we don't have to be bored which requires us to use our own imagination instead of Hollywood's and we starve our Poor or jail them in the name of what......................money, ownership, control, greed, accomplishment or achievement?

                Since the day of the Fiddling Nero, we have accomplished NOTHING except our own follies and braggedociousness--we spend billions to put a man on the moon for what? For @!$%#ing what? What did all that money go to prove, to better us as a society or to cure mankind of anything but bragging rights and stupidity.........................our priorities were in line, when people die of Cancer and other diseases which don't require traveling millions of miles to find in space? We spend so much @!$%#ing money on technological toys, because we are a bunch of children in adult suits, and we like neat little bells and whistles and lights that blink on and off..............................ewwwww..........................boyyyyy! And yet, we don't have the common sense enough to stop "texting" whilst we drive?

                Does anyone get it yet? Health Care is not about money or things or what program in Washington has to get canceled to pay for it.............................it's about people, God's children and we as a Nation of pretty sick and twisted people whose lost all semblence of a Value System. It's about us, as a Nation of people who either get it, and get back to seeking God, or....................................we sink to the depths of Hell under the spells of a value less mob of organized criminals who would kill each other for a chance at a gold watch.

                This, Health Care Reform is about investing in people.......................it's about us you @!$%#ing Nimrods! It's about investing in our Old, Poor and Sick. It's about a society who gets it--that life, is not cheap and it not for sale or for lease....................... it is unique and good. This society of greed and Impishness where the Rich are so disconnected with reality or God, just sickens me to pray for their demise--where they are demoted to the streets where disease, disenfranchisement and despair are alive and well, in their country--what does that say about our Rich Few, if their country is in tatters? It sais it all to the world communities--that we and our Capitalism are weak, fickle and entirely at the whims of the Richest Few who have no Honours, Dignity nor Pride in God or Country.

                This reformation of Insurance is really, the reformation of America--can we get it right? Can we invest in each other as opposed to being Isles of selfishness and contempt for others less fortunate? We, are only judged by others around the world, for that which is our weakest denominator--our Poor.

                I highly suggest we talk about a return to a Moral Society where life isn't just important when it's ours, but when it's our neighbor's.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#28 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:38 AM EST
                swcityDeleted
                Reply
                Luminator

                Yeah, they're outta their friggin minds if they think that health bill is going to pass...

                1.2 TRILLION dollars? There is no way in heck they will be able to raise that money to pay for the program without raising taxes. If you think there is a way, please explain it to me, and make sure to use "real" math and not "washington" math as Obama did during his joint session of Congress speech regarding health care. (I actually got the "washington" math quote from factcheck.org, so that's a pretty legitimate summary I would think).

                Thoughts?

                • 3 votes
                Reply#29 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:39 AM EST
                Eric + Cheney

                You're probably right; the sad thing is, that if this bill is such a priority, why can't we prioritize spending to show that it is one? Why can't we let go of program or aid funding for X,Y,Z, to pay for A,B,C?

                • 2 votes
                #29.1 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 11:45 AM EST
                JayB

                Eric+Cheney....My guess is that they have 100's & 100's of XYZ's and ABC's stuffed into the 2000 page monstrosity that no one knows the contents of! All Pelosi ,Reid, Obama & all the other cronies care about is making sure "friends" get a piece of the 'pie'!!

                • 1 vote
                #29.2 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 7:08 PM EST
                Reply
                Bighorn

                $1.2 Trill - just an opening ante. By 2014 it should be close to $5 Trill based on the past historic performance of similar massive government spending on Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Katrina, U.S. Postal service, NASA, Iraq and Afgan wars, ect.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#30 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:46 AM EST
                Eric + Cheney

                Really $1.2T? LOL!!! My confidence grows daily. Kill the bill; it's over.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#31 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 11:24 AM EST
                1Philosopher

                A robust "Public Option" is a must, to restore "reality" to a Health Care System as a whole, completely gone awry.

                1. Public Option: Create a Public Non-Profit Corportation with reasonable salaried Key Personnel and Operating Budgets based upon realistic "Risk Assessments" by which projecting a reasonable Industry Growth Rate of 12% Gross and 4-5% Net Profitability Per-Annum, would be reasonable.

                [A] If the Insurance Industry can't compete--it will ONLY be because they failed to stop paying their CEOs and CFOs like Kings and failed to quit writing off their perks as "Business Expenses" which creates the brunt of their "Overhead"--they argue that they cannot compete with a Non-Profit that won't have their kind of "Overhead" which is code for, "They can't attract quality Murderers in Armani, without paying the perks and spoils of Evil".

                [B] The Big 7, needs to stop issuing Stock Options and Rights/Warrants as part of their "Executive Package" as it only dillutes the Public Float and is in my opinion a form of Insider Trading--albeit we don't call it that, but what would you call it if Treasury Stock is issued to an Executive who dumps it on the Open Market, as part of his/her compensation, without Shareholder's approval or pre-knowledge--filing SEC paperwork as is mandated is a joke--it fails to preempt the dillution factor for those who actually have to file their intentions to sell. It gives the Executive an unfair "inside" knowledge of the company for which he knows more than the average Investor or Shareholder. Additionally, Wall Street induced "Risk" is driving much of the Insurers to charging huge Premiums Increases--Arbitrage Trading in risky Commodities and Index Options positions, are often huge losses for which stocks and bonds are sold off to off-set them--this creates a see-saw affect on Wall Street and is the brunt of much Insider Trading and Collusion amongst Traders and Insurance Products such as Mutual Funds and Annuities fluctuations. "Too Big to Fail" is right--without risking Wall Street's collapse as Insurers all collude with each other off the floors of Wall Street and conspire to move huge blocks of securities for thier own benefit--a form of theft and pyramid induced intentional fraud. Legislation must address what securities the Insurance Companies may invest their Customer's monies so that they like Banks, remain solvent and capitalized to meet current and future assessments. This is the brunt of "Overhead" masked as perks. Arbitrage and High Risk gambling with Insurance Product Investor's money is egregious and creates volitile markets as well as volitile Insurance Coverage.

                [C] As the Public buys into the Non-Profit (which still operates like a profit-based company) it will forcibly re-adjust the Leadership in which the rules of competition would shift in all other companies--many at first would try to fight back by making thier insurance products available for only the Rich or Privileged. But reality would soon ebb back into their operations, as people who are "Rich" didn't get that way by being frugal with their money--they will abandon them and go for the Public Insurance Option as well. That will leave all those Blow Hards today, scrambling to compete at reasonable and realistic Profit Margins.

                2. Abort State Regulators: State Regulators should be shifted to the State's Attorney's Offices--period. Under Consumer Protections and Criminal Statutes, Insurance Company practices should be fully scrutinized by Criminal Indictments and hard core ethics committees which mimics even the Lawyers who try such cases and function under their State's "Ethics Courts". Unfortunately that does not or rarely every happens and is a form of suspended Habeas Corpus.

                [A] If the denial of Insurance Coverage directly attributes to a person's death or further sufferages, then our Civil Courts and Criminal Courts must be fully utilized under the 1st Amendment's "Rights of Redress", where Habeas is not suspended in the name of Contract Law--Contract Law cannot be "fair and reasonable" under the assumption that "Insurance" has Legal Duplicitous Intentions to deny coverage--it is an Oxymoron and Moot for the word "Insurance" and "Legal" to appear in the same Contract as using Legal Disclaimers and Terms and Conditions, to "un-insure" or deny insurance to the customer, simply makes the "Terms and Conditions" moot. It is no longer "Insurance" but rather, "Hope" that is being sold--the hope that one does not get sick and have to hope he or she will be insured. In other words, the language of Law, in terms of Contract Law, are not being properly adjudicated under the very essence of "Intent". The question is not being asked properly by either Judge or Lawyer........................"What is the intention of Insurance and why would people purchase it?" It is clear, that the intention of Insurance is to absorb "tragedy" while the purchasers intention is to never having to endure a tragedy--the customer pays the Insurer to avert tragedy (the ills of illness are not just confind to the body) if it occurs. Therefore, where was the Law and State Regulators, when Policies and Contracts were being written with such Legal Duplicity? If a Lawyer writes "Terms and Conditions" in which the Insurer anticipates canceling its obligations with a customer at the very time of "tragedy", is that not "Pre-assumed Fraud"? The very "Terms and Conditions" in my opinion, are the very "admission" that an Insurer intends to deny or fail in some other way, in the future, to perform its "Contractual Obligations" if and or when tragedy occurs. The contract, is therefore, "moot" by the very writ of Legal duplicity, which is not Law but rather, "fraud" and abusive misuse of contractual Law whereby "Fair and Reasonable" should clearly support my argument for reformations of wording--is is fair and reasonable for Legalese to kill people in its curator's abusive misuse of its intentions, such as is the case in the sales of Tragedy Aversion? This is NOT "Tort Reform"..................it is recognizing that State Legislative Bodies, have no "vested" interest in anything that is "Fair and Reasonable" as it has failed to prosecute Insurers under the very Criminal Statutes that are dedicated to the people, by the people and for the people, under the simplicity of "intent" which is the Jus Prudentia of Law inofitself--to protect society from its own abusive Lawyers who sling Legalese in the name of "Hypocrisy" has gone un-abridged predominenetly by States and State Legislators who seek Official Trusts by the very donations from Insurance and Banking Institutions who pay for abusive Legalese in violation of Law's true intent--to protect and defend our "Bill Of Rights" outside the confinds of Civil Law which is too costly for the Commoner to access freely--those costs enables such Banking and Insurance Scoundrels dressed in robes of hypocrisy, to make a mockery and moot of our Laws and Legal System. Legalese (writ) should never be so abusive and murderous, that Constitutional Law too, fails to project "Rights of Redress" for its shift from Criminal to Civil Courts, prevents criminal conduct from being adjudicated in Criminal proceedings. Unfortunately for the "Sick" who need Insurance to help them overcome "Tragedies", those who are in need are denied and then typically die before their case makes it to Supreme Justices who merely cite "Precedence" from Appeals Courts anyway. Thus, only those rich enough to have the option of paying for their Health Care with cash, are typically also those who have the money to exercise "Legal Restitution" all the way to "Redress" if need be. We therefore, have in fact re-created Socratesian Law and made it "for sale" to the wealthiest as opposed to honoring the "intent" of The Rule of Law under our 14th Amendment's "Equal Rights" status, because Constitutional Law is useless and worthless in its intentions to protect the Citizen from other Citizens and therefore, money is trumps Law, as a tool for which Citizens have protection from each other. And that, is NOT a very good argument to make in a society that preaches "Equal Rights".................err for those with money that is, should be the caveat upon which E Pluribus Unum is amended upon our coins.

                [B] Thus, Insurance is merely a Fraudulent Practice of deception which sells "hope" as opposed to "Tragedy Aversion", for those who cannot afford Legal Redress or paying for Health Care with cash. As is the case with State Legislative Bodies who have neither the budget nor time for "Redress", it is much cheaper and easier to fall back on "Contractual Hypocrisy" (Terms and Conditions) than to file Criminal Indictments and challenge those who finance Democracy through duplicitous Appeals Courts where "Legal Precedence" is adjudicated to create "Starre Decisis" and the fallacy of Justice is cited by our Supreme Court who is made up of what..............................Lawyers.

                [C] The Oligarchy therefore, one can say, murders the Innocent in the name of billable hours and abusive misuse of Law, for profit--whereby "Terms and Conditions" are admissions of "Intent To Aid and Abet" in the creation of Moot Contracts via purposeful convuluted legalese dedicated to hypocrisy and anti-redress or purposeful usefulness in terms of "Fair and Reasonable" Law and Contract Stipulations.

                [E] To fix the Health Care Industry would suffice to simply fire Law and remove the Lawyer from the equation.......................a return to "Arbitration" whereby a Board of our Peers, may decide Contract Disputes as opposed to Legislators and Lawyers with conflicted interests, is "Tort Reform" in my mind.

                Just some thoughts..........................as "Life" is what matters in this argument for re-defining America and what our "Moral Imperatives" might look like in the near and far off future--Law fails to protect her weakest who need her most.....................the Poor, Sick and Disenfranchised. We are after all, judged by our weakest not our richest or most famous or most beautiful. For, one need only visit Washington D.C, to see how ugly the beauty of our Framer's intentions, have been askewed by those who seek to serve only their Selves.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#32 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:12 PM EST
                Vault313

                Wow. Excellent post, but don't count on too many actually reading it. It requires effort! ;P I agree whole-heartedly. They say you can judge a country by how they treat their worst off. In that case, we fail. Miserably. Im afraid this country has failed and the big, grand experiment of democracy and capitalism was allowed to be over-taken and over-run by greed and selfishness. Unless something changes, and fast, this country is doomed. Every empire see's it's end, perhaps America is facing hers.

                • 1 vote
                #32.1 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:29 PM EST
                2scentsworth

                Philosopher and Vault, what the lawmakers are trying to do with this 'health care bill' something should be handled on the STATE level, not the Federal level!

                This is not reform, because nothing is really being fixed, only new problems and issues being created on a grander, national level.

                If they don't fix what is already broken, all they're doing is sealing in the existing problems (fraud, illegal immigration draining the system, etc.) into any new programs. Like waxing a floor without sweeping it first.

                This bill should not be passed as a law, but should be passed to the states for enactment!

                • 2 votes
                #32.2 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 1:00 PM EST
                swcityDeleted
                Rhep

                I'm don't care enough to look it up, but what is the salary difference between the average insurance company CEO and another from a different industry?

                Gotta remember, a CEO is there to run the business and make money for it and himself, if someone else will pay him better why not go there? This will leave you with people who are willing to work for less money - this usually means the less talented portion of the pool.

                  #32.4 - Wed Nov 4, 2009 1:06 AM EST
                  Reply
                  2scentsworth

                  http://www.house.gov/

                  http://www.senate.gov/

                  Make your voices heard! :)

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#33 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 1:01 PM EST
                  NHFishercat

                  AP sources: House health bill totals $1.2 trillion

                  Good, then I guess Obama WON'T be supporting this bill.

                    Reply#34 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 3:52 PM EST
                    JACK DEATH

                    Good, then I guess Obama WON'T be supporting this bill.

                    This will be NO problem when the Buch tax cuts roll back next year.

                    • 1 vote
                    #34.1 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 4:01 PM EST
                    NHFishercat

                    This will be NO problem when the Buch tax cuts roll back next year

                    If the Dems have enough votes next year. Maybe one of the reasons they need it to be voted on this year, but then Obama said he wouldn't sign anything over 900 billion. So there may be some problems after all.

                    • 3 votes
                    #34.2 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 4:22 PM EST
                    JACK DEATH

                    Obama said he wouldn't sign anything over 900 billion

                    NO he said he would not sign it if it added to the deficient.

                    • 1 vote
                    #34.3 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 4:33 PM EST
                    NHFishercat

                    You are correct. He did cite that the bill should be $900 as a price tag. This is $300 billion over that and growing.

                    • 4 votes
                    #34.4 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 4:38 PM EST
                    NHFishercat

                    NO he said he would not sign it if it added to the deficient.

                    Which based on everything the federal government runs will happen.

                    • 2 votes
                    #34.5 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 4:51 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Jason Burnham

                    and what did I see when I opened the Press Enterprise today... For 1.2 Trillion Dollars the Healthcare Bill will cover just 6 million people. Looks like Congress is back to buying 1 million dollar toilets again.

                    • 3 votes
                    Reply#35 - Tue Nov 3, 2009 4:42 PM EST
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