Palestinians recommend calling off upcoming vote

Anna, I don't think Egypt wants Gaza, its population, or the problems that come with. Jordan has long ago ceded any claim to the West Bank and pushed the PLO out of Jordan back in the 70's.

Decurion - it's true, they did not. But times are changing. Maybe today Palestinians finally realize that they cannot manage themselves and they waste their lives and their children lives.

I don't believe that so called Palestinian state would ever work.

Give Gaza back to Mubarak and allow him to clear it from Hamas any way he sees useful (using Sharia Laws punishments f/e, - flogging, stoning, beheading, amputations, etc) and WB divide between Jordan and Israel.

Anna,

The very fact that this is such a logical conclusion underscores the REAL motive for "Palestinian self-determination".

This was, and remains an artificial creation of the arab world, designed to implant a permanent thorn in the side of Israel. The thorn infects the wound and kills the host.

NOT.

This is obviously proving to be an unsuccessful strategy. They do not have a better one, so they're going to stick with this one for the time being. Once the settlement issue dies down, there will be a new issue. You will recall the last 2 red herrings, "the 'apartheid' wall" and "right of return". The nuclear saber rattling will end within a year, one way or another.

All of these things are designed to wear down the Jewish State, and none have succeeded. Your idea is the best, and that is PRECISELY why it will not happen.

I hope I'm not too late for the Palestinian-hating party.

Isn't it obvious these people (Palestinians) cannot governs themselves?

It's kind of hard to do that

A. under occupatoin
B. with intense internal rivalry

But it doesn't mean we should abolish the idea of an independent Palestinian state

It is time to finish the entire nonsense with "independent" Palestinian state.

Better yet, create a binational state, you know, since Palestinians cannot "govern themselves."

Squidward,

There are ways to create a nation. There are "nation building" activities that these people could have engaged in for 42 years, and in earnest for the past 15 years. The creation of a school system, using perhaps the European model. An economic system to foster the growth of business and commerce. Infrastructure projects, such as roads, sewage, trash removal, and a durable electrical grid.

But no. All we have are some extremely wealthy people (or their widows), and a few million uneducated paupers who have been told that Israel is Satan.

Blame Israel all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the leadership of these people has let them down by stealing from them at best, and abusing them at worst.

I can't think of a worse violation of their human rights.

It's kind of hard to do that

A. under occupatoin
B. with intense internal rivalry

I agree with B. As for the rest - can you honestly compare conditions in which Palestinians have to create their state with ones under which Jews had to do the same?

Better yet, create a binational state, you know, since Palestinians cannot "govern themselves."

It's not going to work. Neither party wants it.

This whole article reeks with propaganda, and the fact that all 8 responses, beyond mine are all pro Zionist, pro Abbas positions, should clearly warn its readers here that the corporate media, AP included, continue with their pro Zionist slant, and lie through incomplete information, where what is left out is far more truthful then what was factually stated, though most of it was not.

To begin with, Abbas, a puppet, patsy, for American Empire and Zionist Israel, has no credibility. The West since day one, when Hamas was elected by Palestinians, tried to undermine its regimes through criminal conspiracies to overthrow it, where Israel, America, Egypt and Abbas were involved in its overthrow, but got caught red handed, before it could be carried out.

Thus when AP, corporate news states this piece of clever propaganda:

"The Palestinians have been divided between two governments since Hamas violently seized control of Gaza in 2007 from Abbas' Fatah movement. Abbas' Western-backed government controls only the West Bank. The Palestinians hope to establish an independent state in both territories, located on opposite sides of Israel, with east Jerusalem as their capital."

They left out that Hamas was on to their criminal, colonial, subjugated divide and rule policies, attempted overthrow, that plague most of the West and its colonialism, including Zionist Israel's own colonial state.

Abbas and the puppet Palestinian Authority used and manipulated by the U.S. and Zionist Israel, went even so far as ordering Abbas to reject the Goldstone report, where the world, and the international jurists, charged Zionism, Israel, for its war crimes, which most Palestinians supported, from both factions, only to find that Abbas refused to support such an investigation/trial/conclusions.

Abbas became so discredited with the corrupt Zionist, Western class and imperial colonial machinations, that he lost any control over his own Fatah faction. He realized this too late, and then did a U TURN, and then supported the Goldstone report. STill that did not prevent Zionist thugs, American thugs, Obama, Zionist whores, to continue to refuse to support Palestinian Hamas support, and now are using the corrupt election process, whose results were rejected by the West, American/Israeli/Western class elites, that was then used to collectively punish the Palestinian voters, by illegal closures, and illegal war crimes by Israel....AND THE SILENCE OF OBAMA.

To understand the rot of this propaganda piece, we must compare an alternative news piece to see what was left out.....I offer this article to show how devious AP, and the corporate media are, in their colonial, imperial, warmongering, cheerleading against Palestinians for the War criminal states of America and Israel:

How the Lobby Made Mincemeat of the Obama Administration America's Dismal Future

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts11122009.html

excerpt:

"It did not take the Israel Lobby long to make mincemeat out of the Obama administration’s “no new settlements” position. Israeli prime minister Netanyahu is bragging about Israel’s latest victory over the US government as Israel continues to build illegal settlements on occupied Palestinian land.

In May President Obama read the Israelis the riot act, telling the Israeli government that he was serious about ending the Israeli conflict with the Palestinians and that a lasting peace agreement required the Israeli government to abandon all construction of new settlements in the occupied West Bank.

On November 10 Obama’s White House chief of staff, Rahm Israel Emanuel, surrendered for his boss at the annual conference of the United Jewish Communities. The ongoing Israeli settlements, he said, should not be a “distraction” to a peace agreement.

Allegedly, the US is a superpower and Israel is a client state whose very existence depends entirely on US military and economic aid and diplomatic protection. Yet, in the real world it works the other way. Israel is the superpower and the US is its client state.

This true fact is proved to us at least once every week and sometimes two or three times in one week. A few days ago the US House of Representatives voted 344 to 36 in favor of disavowing the UN report by the distinguished Jewish judge Richard Goldstone that found that Israel had committed war crimes in its attack on the civilian population in the Gaza Ghetto. The Israel Lobby demanded that the House repudiate the fact-filled report, and the servile House did as its master ordered.

US Rep. Dennis Kucinich spoke to his colleagues for 2 minutes in an effort to make them see that their vote against the Goldstone report would be a great embarrassment to the US government and demean the House in the eyes of the world. But none of that matters when Israel gives its servants an order. The US House of Representatives preferred to demean itself and to embarrass the US Government rather than to cross the Israel Lobby.

Retribution quickly fell upon Kucinich for his 2 minute speech. On November 9, Kucinich was forced to withdraw as the keynote speaker for the Palm Beach County (Florida) Democratic Party’s annual fundraising dinner. The Israel Lobby gave the order--dump Kucinich or there’s no money and no one is coming to the dinner. County Commissioner Burt Aaronson called Kucinich “an absolute horror.”

Kucinich is the rare Democrat who stands up for his party’s principles, the working class, and tried to get health care for those Americans the corporations have thrown out on the street. But helping Americans doesn’t count. Israel uber alles."

SHALL WE SAY SIEG HEIL TO THESE CORPORATE FASCISTS, PROTO FASCISTS IN CONGRESS, BOTH FOR AMERICAN EMPIRE AND ZIONIST ISRAEL, AND OBAMA AN IMPERIAL WHORE, CORPORATE WHORE FOR WALL STREET AND EMPIRE, WHO BETRAYS THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM, MANY OF THEM PROGRESSIVE JEWS WHO OPPOSE CORPORATISM, FASCISM, ZIONISM AND THE ISRAELI AIPAC THUGS.

I see that Squidward, has come to the rescue of Palestinians, and the Zionist, Abbas lies. Thanks Squidward

beyond mine are all pro Zionist, pro Abbas positions

Eric - slow down! You are preaching to congregation! I agree with you - Abbas is also worthless piece of crap. But this is the best they have to offer.

So why are Zionists, manipulating and corrupting Abbas???? and the policies which you support??? Just because he made a U TURN, and was not sufficiently servile to Israel and America, does not mean that we share the same ideological position. He, Abbas, is "worthless crap" because we have created these corrupt puppets, as we did with Saddam, Noriega, the Shah and yes Osama Bin laden....all results of class forces and Empire.

Eric,

You are entitled to your opinions. There are things that you say that I must admit I even agree with. The part of your rants that I find most useless is where you stop.

Right at the present.

So, we've got this bag of lemons. Eventually, there will be lemonade. Corruption is here, corruption is there... it has always been there, time immemorial.

This is a 2 party problem. Hamas and Fatah (remember the seed?). How will they work this out?

So why are Zionists, manipulating and corrupting Abbas????

This is just too funny. Who among Zionists manipulate and corrupt Abbas? Do you have any names, dates, amounts - any facts to support your millennium old claim about Zionist (read Jewish) conspiracy?

He, Abbas, is "worthless crap" because we have created

Maybe you did. I know I did not.

can you honestly compare conditions in which Palestinians have to create their state with ones under which Jews had to do the same?

Favorable treatment from the British, a strong military, European educated, no repercussions for terrorist activities.....

I can't think of a worse violation of their human rights.

Home demolitions, stealing water, illegal settlements, apartheid, terrorizing the civilian populace....take your pick.

apartheid

A policy of the white South Africans forcibly separating themselves from the black South Africans WITHIN SOUTH AFRICA. It was the black insistence that South Africa was ONE country, and that there should not be TWO sets of circumstances for its citizens. And they were right.

The Palestinians want their own separate country. Israel would like not to be terrorized from the north, west AND east, so they built a defensive barrier. Predictably, the suicide bombing stopped. The Palestinians want their own country. We gave them boundary lines. You're welcome. You don't like the barrier lines? Come, sit down to a negotiation without preconditions.

Black South Africa is South Africa. It was wrong to build a "barrier" in that SINGLE COUNTRY. Black and white now live as one country.

Israel IS keeping out Palestinians. It's their country, and they don't need to allow themselves to be vulnerable to terrorism from ANOTHER, SEPARATE territory.

Learn the difference.

All the preferential treatment of the Israeli settlers by the IDF (even when settlers attack the IDF) and all horrid treatment of the Palestinians by the IDF and no apartheid???

Sorry, I'm not buying your lame argument.

Favorable treatment from the British, a strong military, European educated, no repercussions for terrorist activities.....

You are joking, right? Favorable treatment from British - when? When British restricted Jewish immigration to please Arabs?

European educated - some, true. But how many weren't? And for 60+ years and with all these oil money pouring into PA - how many Arabs could get European education?

Instead, money went directly to Mr. Arafat bank account and, of course, to fund terrorist activities.

Jewish terrorist activities were only until Jews got their state - whatever was given to them - without complaining fair or not. And then they stopped.

Palestinian terrorist activities are non-stop and have no positive goal, except to make life in Israel unbearable.

How many times Palestinians had a chance to create their own state? They fail every time.

Simple - where there is a will, there is a way.

Obviously, Palestinians (or whoever is using them as pawns in their dirty games) are not interested in creating their own state.

ahh, yeah - strong military. Do you call this army of people many of whom were just freed from German concentration camps?

When British restricted Jewish immigration to please Arabs?

That was the only thing the British ever did to trouble the Zionists. Otherwise, the Zionists had their way.

European educated - some, true. But how many weren't?

Not many.

Jewish terrorist activities were only until Jews got their state

Except for Israel's state terrorism.

How many times Palestinians had a chance to create their own state? They fail every time.

Never. When they get their rights under international law, I'll say they had a chance.

Obviously, Palestinians (or whoever is using them as pawns in their dirty games) are not interested in creating their own state.

Nope, it's more obvious that the Israeli government is actively stopping the Palestinians from having a state.

ahh, yeah - strong military.

Ahhhh, yeah. Israeli historians exposed the myth that the Israeli forces were weak. If you want to deny the truth, that's your business.

All the preferential treatment of the Israeli settlers by the IDF

That's not apartheid.

That, Squidward, is a risk that the Palestinians of Judea & Samaria took when they sent their children into Israel with explosives wrapped around them. People remember these things. Admittedly, it's less than professional.

You excused the behavior of suicide bombers.

I can excuse the relatives of people blown up in pizzerias and at weddings, who are probably in the military.

BTW, I'd like the cycle to stop. It would be nice if Abbas went to the bargaining table and stopped whining about preconditions that Israel will never agree to.

That's not apartheid.

It is. The occupiers are treating Jews better than non-Jews.

You excused the behavior of suicide bombers.

There is no excuse for the killing of innocent civilians. I don't excuse them. They are morally repugnant. It doesn't give the IDF the right to treat Palestinians like the bottoms of their shoes.

preconditions that Israel will never agree to.

Stopping settlement construction is easy. We know Israel doesn't want to negotiate, or else they'd stop the construction of settlements. But appeasing religious settlers is more important than peace.

We know Israel doesn't want to negotiate,

Does Israel have anyone to negotiate to? who is there to represent Palestinians? Who is there to take a charge for the entire population?

Ahhhh, yeah. Israeli historians exposed the myth that the Israeli forces were weak

There are soo many historians nowadays - you can find "proofs" for any "theory".

But simple logic would tell you - most people in Israeli army in 1948 were new immigrants, many of whom were just released from concentration camps. So, if this is "strong military" according to you - what can one add to it? At least that military of 6 attacking Arabs armies were not less strong.

That was the only thing the British ever did to trouble the Zionists. Otherwise, the Zionists had their way.

This is THE WAY Zionists wanted - remember? Zionists wanted Jews , all of them to gather in Israel and British denied it. And in doing so, they were so cruel as to send back to Germany ships with Jewish refugees.

Never. When they get their rights under international law, I'll say they had a chance.

They had their chance equally with Jews in 1948 and many more other chances, including when Arafat walked out with 95% of their demands satisfied. Of course, according to Palestinians, their "rights" are never satisfied - because in every agreement Israel would still be there and it's not what Palestinians want. They want ("integral" Hamas, f/e) "from the river to the sea" Palestine.

Nope, it's more obvious that the Israeli government is actively stopping the Palestinians from having a state

And 22 Arabs states + many other Muslim and non-Muslim states are actively stopping Jews from having a state - so what?

Who wants to do it - do it, who does not - find excuses.

It is. The occupiers are treating Jews better than non-Jews.

So Squidward,

The definition of treating one group better than the other is "apartheid"?

When Turks abuse Kurds, that's apartheid?

When Hezbollah isolates the Christians in Lebanon, that's apartheid?

When the Saudis discriminate against EVERYONE, that's apartheid?

Or is that just a "special" buzzword we now like to use for Israel?

At least that military of 6 attacking Arabs armies were not less strong.

Actually, the Zionist forces were still stronger. The Arab countries committed some troops, not whole armies. Read about it. Read Pappe, Morris, or Schlaim.

Does Israel have anyone to negotiate to?

If Israel stopped settlement construction, they'll at least have Abbas to talk to.

This is THE WAY Zionists wanted - remember?

A lot of British complacency to Zionist attacks on Arabs and the Zionists strengthening their military capabilities.

including when Arafat walked out with 95% of their demands satisfied.

95% That's a joke. Try again.

And 22 Arabs states + many other Muslim and non-Muslim states are actively stopping Jews from having a state - so what?

They're not actively stopping Jews from having a state. They're not attacking Israel. They're not doing anything to Israel. Propaganda again.

The definition of treating one group better than the other is "apartheid"?

Here's the definition of apartheid: any system or practice that separates people according to race, caste, etc.

Is that not what's happening in the West Bank? Jewish and non-Jewish roads, Arabs not allowed to build, Jews allowed to build, Jews can throw firebombs at the army, non-Jews can't??

Jews can throw firebombs at the army, non-Jews can't??

This is something that BOTH sides do, whether or not you say they can, and whether or not there is retribution or prosecution.

What we DO know now is that Palestinians can rain terror on Sderot, and if Israel retaliates, that's "human rights violations".

They're not actively stopping Jews from having a state. They're not attacking Israel. They're not doing anything to Israel.

They are not attacking Israel? Like right now? Well, they did it many times before and they will do it as soon as they get a chance - at least this is what they promise.

Just couple days before Israeli Navy ceased ship destined to Lebanon with Iranian weapon.

So, they constantly do something. and I don't think I should remind you what happens in 1948 after Israel declared independence and many times after that.

What we DO know now is that Palestinians can rain terror on Sderot, and if Israel retaliates, that's "human rights violations".

And what we do know that Israel can come into Gaza and kill 900+ civilians and feel good about itself.

And 22 Arabs states + many other Muslim and non-Muslim states are actively stopping Jews from having a state - so what?

So you can prove that 22 Arab states are actively stopping Jews from having a state?

Sometimes you should review your posts before you post them.

Or they vote for somebody with at least a bare minimum of integrity and it will be the pretext Israel is waiting desperately for, to again bomb the crap out of the Palestinians.

So, what is your definition of integrity? Do you consider Hamas as someone with a shred of integrity?

Yeah, I got you - Hamas indeed has some integrity - they don't pretend to aim for peace and all such nonsense. They openly say it - their purpose is to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews.

Great choice for Palestinians!

Do you consider Hamas as someone with a shred of integrity?

I don't consider Hamas a person. I consider them as an extreme political group that can become more moderate if they're talked to or get voted out if the Palestinians are presented with a non-corrupt moderate.

Sqidward,

That would be wonderful, only there won't be any elections in Gaza in January.

And probably well beyond that.

Anna.

Not only to you pose a question that is slightly skewed (as Squidward points out) but then you go and answer it yourself.

Obviously no, no, you haven't got me. But with your preconceived mind, somewhat I'm not surprised. And I don't even believe that you are interested in "getting it".

Considering that Hamas basically stole the previous "election" by maiming and killing Fatah candidates and supporters, I think your statement in #4.2 to be a non-starter. They have already shown their unwillingness to talk without ridiculous preconditions, and have publicly stated on more than one occasion that their aim is to utterly destroy the state of Israel.

They will not negotiate in good faith, they cannot win by force of arms, leaving either total surrender (not freakin' likely) or their current course: attack Israel from among the noncombatant residents inviting reprisals which fall upon those same noncombatant residents as a way to make Israel look bad. That the MSM buys into this self-perpetuated victimhood is beyond stupid. Talk of Israel commiting genocide is equally stupid. In the Gaza Strip, the current birth ratio is 5 live births per woman of childbearing age. This far outstrips the death-by-military-action figures paraded about and in conjunction with the non-combat death rate indicates that their population is growing. This seems to indicate that the "Palestinians" are not victims of the Israelis, but victims of their own ideology; breeding, raising, and educating the next generation to hate.

Obviously no, no, you haven't got me. B

Obviously, yes, yes, I got you.

You also mentioned that election of a person or a group with some integrity would give Israel basis to attack. And from your previous posts I know that this perverted explanation you give to conflict between Israel and Gaza.

To translate from you to plain English - Palestinians elected Hamas (one group with some integrity, who would not sell out to "evil racist Zionists") that's why they got bitten by Israel.

Did I get you right?

Considering that Hamas basically stole the previous "election"

They were elected fair and square, try again.

They will not negotiate in good faith

Ha! And Israel will negotiate in good faith??

This seems to indicate that the "Palestinians" are not victims of the Israelis

Not of the Israelis, but the army, airforce, navy, and government of Israel. The fact that you deny that Israel has wronged the Palestinians says a lot about you.

Whatever blows your horn, Anna.

BTW, just read the other day that one of your friends and co-activists (Yaakov Teitel) ended up in trouble in Israel.

Another one down on the path. No surprise our resident Kahanists are slightly off the hook lately.

BTW, just read the other day that one of your friends and co-activists

How do you know he is my friend? You assume?

One of your friends just been indicated on 13 counts of murder in Fort Hood.

And US government just moved to cease the asset of some more of your friends.

Although Teitel didn't get in any trouble until he started killing Jewish people. When he killed Arab people, he was let off the hook.

Although Teitel didn't get in any trouble until he started killing Jewish people

BS. He got in trouble for killing two Arabs, not Jews. He was attempting to kill some Jews, but did not actually do it.

Assume?

Not really.

a) Teitel was, at least during a certain period, a known member of Kahane Chai.

b) JDL's connection to Kahane Chai is out of question.

c) You are a JDL activist and other JDL activists are on your friendlist.

ergo: Teitel and you are co-activists.

But I give you this - I "assume" that you are friends also, and not only share the same criminal intent and agenda.

You are a JDL activist and other JDL activists are on your friendlist.

No, I am not. But probably after participating on this site and communicating with someone like you, it might come to my mind to join.

But I give you this - I "assume" that you are friends also, and not only share the same criminal intent and agenda.

Sounds pretty much as personal attack.

Hey Westenfelder,

That's a rather sweeping generalization.

The fact that you're German doesn't make you a Nazi, does it?

Does it?

Does it?

Hhhhhmmm...

Does it?

...Deafening silence...

Jalmeno - of course I could ask you to elaborate how what I say is a sweeping generalisation given that on Newsvine alone one can check it with ease.

But we can leave it at that.

And "that" means that you just took the first opportunity to voice some remarks of lavish racism. Which affects the standpoints you defend, of course.

Another element in the usual pattern on Newsvine, being that Israel gung-ho's are also the most racist posters on Newsvine in general terms. (and Anna's reply to you makes my point well)

Meanwhile, I can lean back and watch your self-mutilation with amusement. With friends like you.....poor Israel.

Usual pattern on Newsvine, indeed.

I believe it was you who began the "compartmentalizing" campaign with this post. Israel needs me like the Palestinians need you. We are merely viewers of the play.

And you, sir, stand on the wrong side of history - past, present and future.

You are watching the world enable the Palestinians more than a kids' track club handing out 9th place ribbons. The world is telling this group how wonderful, how entitled, how ESSENTIAL they are to the stability of the world. At the same time, you are watching the world villify Israel. You, along with the world, seem to believe that this concerted effort to discredit her will result in an improvement in the stability of the region. Punish, punish, punish. Sometimes right, most of the time wrong. Just like any other country. But singled out. Why? We know why. And our knowledge deepens our resolve.

Want statehood for the Palestinians? Tell them to try something they've never tried before.

Got the guts?

Sometimes right, most of the time wrong.

You got that backwards but I think you knew that already.

BS. He got in trouble for killing two Arabs, not Jews. He was attempting to kill some Jews, but did not actually do it.

My point is he killed the Arabs in 1997. In 2000, he got questioned and let go. An Arab killer, no biggie. Then he attempted to kill Jews. That's when he got arrested for real.