Iran condemns US mosque seizure

Hey Iran.......so now I guess you'll cry on Russia and China's shoulder until you get your way again........ooIoo = FU

Notice, the yahoos, knee jerk nationalists, like so many "Good Germans", who automatically side with their criminal government, as our criminal government morphs into a criminal oligarchy, Kleptocracy, imperial criminality, and is the source of real Terrorism, i.e. State Terrorism.

I cannot accept the wimpy liberal proposition, that seizing property based on false claims of terrorism, not proven, but sheer propaganda either, out of faith that our government and its fascist police, the very CIA thugs, FBI fascist thugs, who lie at every opportunity they get to smear newly created enemies, coming right out of George Orwell's 1984, where we create our corrupt enemies by financing, installing dictators, only to declare that "Oceana", once our friend is now our enemy.

Both American Empire and Zionist Israel as imperial thugs have a long history of seizing, murdering, kidnapping innocent people or torturing them, that now extends into the seizure of ships, completely illegal, or even whole countries' assets, as if one day, Israeli ships could be seized because they are being armed by American Nazis, or the other way around, American corporate banks are seized and their assets confiscated because in real history, they have stolen, trillions from people through their criminal activity, or seize their ships for arming an illegal war criminal state, Israel, or because itself, has a long history of being a proto fascist criminal Empire.

Think these fundamental conclusions are too extreme, not true.....A look at our history and our criminal alliances, thugs, and fascist foreign policies are not the source of most of the world's STATE TERRORIST POLICIES, where if we used the flimsy logic of our Police thugs, that themselves have a duplicitous history, who do not arrest War criminals, like Bush, Cheney, the biggest Terrorists, and DO NOT SEIZE THEIR ASSETS, but instead arrest protesters, for trying to arrest REAL CRIMINALS, one should take the duplicity, hypocrisy of our CIA/FBI fascist duplicity with more than a grain of salt, but as complete reasons to ignore, take seriously. Maybe these fascist thugs should see this video....of the criminal Terrorist policies of their own leaders, and start seizing their property first, before creating false enemies:

Afghanistan: All About The Pipeline (video)

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/47739

Yes, America supports Nazis, fascists, torture, police thugs, POLICE-regimes which boils innocent people America kidnaps, to outsource terrorism......AND WE HAVE OUR CRIMINAL ELITES PREACH TO THE WORLD ABOUT TERRORISM.....SICK AND DISGUSTING HYPOCRISY.

Notice, the yahoos, knee jerk nationalists, like so many "Good Germans", who automatically side with their criminal government, as our criminal government morphs into a criminal oligarchy, Kleptocracy, imperial criminality, and is the source of real Terrorism, i.e. State Terrorism.

I cannot accept the wimpy liberal proposition, either, that seizing property based on false claims of terrorism, not proven, but sheer propaganda either, out of faith, that our government should be taken at face value. The fascist police, the very CIA thugs, FBI police thugs, who lie at every opportunity they get to smear, create new enemies, coming right out of George Orwell's 1984, where we create our corrupt enemies by financing, installing dictators, only to declare that "Oceana", once our friend is now our enemy and the other way around.

Both American Empire and Zionist Israel as imperial thugs have a long history of seizing, murdering, kidnapping innocent people or torturing them, that now extends into the seizure of ships, seizing property, completely illegal, or even whole countries' assets, as if one day, Israeli ships could not be seized because they are being armed by American Nazis. Or it could be the other way around, American corporate banks are seized and their assets confiscated because in real history, they have stolen, trillions from people through their criminal activity, or seize their ships for arming an illegal war criminal state, Israel, or because itself, has a long history of being a proto fascist criminal Empire.

Think these fundamental conclusions are too extreme, not true.....A look at our history and our criminal alliances, thugs, and fascist foreign policies are the source of most of the world's STATE TERRORIST POLICIES, where we use the flimsy logic of our Police thugs, that themselves have a duplicitous history, who do not arrest War criminals, like Bush, Cheney, the biggest Terrorists, and DO NOT SEIZE THEIR ASSETS, but instead arrest protesters, for trying to arrest REAL CRIMINALS, one should take the duplicity, hypocrisy of our CIA/FBI fascist duplicity with more than a grain of salt, but as complete reasons to ignore, take seriously. Maybe these fascist thugs should see this video....of the criminal Terrorist policies of their own leaders, and start seizing their property first, before creating false enemies:

Afghanistan: All About The Pipeline (video)

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/47739

Yes, America supports Nazis, fascists, torture, police thugs, POLICE-regimes which boils innocent people America kidnaps, to outsource terrorism......AND WE HAVE OUR CRIMINAL ELITES PREACH TO THE WORLD ABOUT TERRORISM.....SICK AND DISGUSTING HYPOCRISY.

The second one is the corrected one, but for some reason posted twice....sorry... make sure you all watch the video....it smacks the corporate media, which includes AP, as the "fawning corporate media whores" who never question their government.

I keep forgetting Iran lets there people question them all the time. I wish we were as free as the Iranians. They get free speech, women are'nt cattle and property. Remember the peaceful protest and how the west lied and said people were attacked by the Govt? i wish we were as transparent as them... what a beacon of freedom and free will iran is. Maybe one day Eric we will be as enlightened as them..

MikeP71,

Dude I could not have said that better! He is well on his way to the vast realm of Enlightment!

Oh yeah, better watch out for them evangelical suicide bombers.

Evangelical Churches support the republican party and continued violence in the Mid East. Violence against those who support abortion, and gays. Shall I continue?

You show me where there are organized groups involved in those activities, and I'll gladly listen, and strongly condemn anyone advocating for it.

One of the best ways to hide from taxation is to declare yourself a church, a non-profit organization, or a NGO (Non Governamental Organization).

Hiding behind a church and non-profit organizations all the while funding terrorism is an excellent cover. I applaud the USA for their stance. However, the USA must be very carefull in case USA ONGs are active in Iran because this can turn out to be a tit for tat situation. I say we should seize everything associated with Iran on US soil.

Thank you Peter. Food for the thought. We of course know this in more traditional NGO's my late mother would never donate to the American Red Cross. She in her innocence thought they were more into raising more money for their organization then they were for helping those in need. She never felt they words matched their deeds.

Back to what you are saying Peter. What better way to promote rain forest destruction or ripping off people then start and NGO and call it friends of Nature. Then talk as if you are an expert. People think they are donating to a worthy cause.

I am for taking this mosque. I am also for putting pressure on those people and organization who turn the other way when terrorism in their eyes is patriotism or fits their narrow religious beliefs. This means Christian Jew,or Hindu.

Very well said, Bob. And may I remind Tango and others that all terrorism starts small and then spreads when people don't stomp it out right away. Letting anyone threaten and shoot someone providing a LEGAL service, looking the other way and calling it a "crime" rather than what it is - terrorism - is how you start down the slippery path to having them threaten the life of someone with a billboard ad they don't like (real occurence) and getting together as a group to ban gay marriage (as in CA) and birth control (as they are doing in FL).

It snowballs. Calling it terrorism is good b/c this early in the game we have the best chance of convincing others it is as such, and off nipping it in the bud, as we hopefully are with these Iranian holdings.

Bob- you mean like Algore??

You know, I'm pretty hard-core when it comes to terrorism. But, I can't condone seizure of ANY property, I don't care WHO it belongs to.... UNLESS those accused are convicted of whatever crimes they have been charged with.

What I mean is this: If US counterterrorism suspects that these mosques and/or this property is actively engaging in funding terrorism, then they need to PROVE THAT IN COURT before ANY siezure of property takes place.

This kind of crap takes place all across this country to lots of people, but you just don't hear a whole lot about it. A lot of these people are INNOCENT, yet have their property seized and bank accounts frozen on the mere suspicion of wrongdoing. Do you think any of these innocent people get compensated by the government for that? Hell no. It's "Ooops, my bad. You're off to go try and put your life back together. Buh-bye!"

NO. Let the government prove their case in court first, and THEN seize any property IF it is proven that it is/was involved in the funding of terrorism.

What I mean is this: If US counterterrorism suspects that these mosques and/or this property is actively engaging in funding terrorism, then they need to PROVE THAT IN COURT before ANY siezure of property takes place.

Um do you realize the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution right.

The seizure is for evidence.

Same thing if you suspect someone of being soliciting in kidding porn or a pedophile you then have to go and search their home and seize their property as evidence to prove in court.

So no they do not have the prove it in court before a seizure. That would go against the 4th Amendment.

Everything is perfectly within the rights and legality of the US. Iran condemning this is a flat out joke since we have the United States Constitution, which obviously they do not care about. US soil our rules. They can suck it up.

The seizure is for evidence.

You don't need to seize an ENTIRE property for evidence (property meaning buildings and/or land, and monetary assets). All you need is a handy little thing called a "search warrant", and you can rip that property apart to your heart's content.

As to your example, if you suspect a guy of peddling in child porn, the only property you need to seize is the evidence itself...like a computer, pictures, magazines, etc. You don't seize the entire house just to get to that evidence, do you? No. You don't.

Look, I don't have a problem with this investigation in any way, shape or form. Understand that. What I have a problem with is a seizure of buildings, bank accounts, and land. If the government can prove in a court of law, through the use of search warrants on those properties and land, that those properties were used for sponsoring terrorism, go ahead. Seize away. But to take it prior to that is wrong, in my opinion.

Never mind you don't get it.

*getting too tired to explain things to people who won't go and do the research themselves.*

Kshark, I get it just fine. I just DON'T AGREE with you.

YaddaYadda--

That is because you do not get it. So you will disagree anyway.

You do not get it plain and simple.

Kshark, if you want to talk Constitutional amendments regarding the taking of property, please see the 5TH. The government still has to go through the court system and PROVE their case before they can take a property even if they are doing it under the guise of a police power (there are, however, limiting circumstances when property can be taken this way without going through the courts) rather than eminent domain. The JD already has a case filed regarding these properties. They're just not content with the wait, so they're asking the government to allow them to seize the property outright.

Actually, seizures can occur of any property used in a criminal enterprise. The property must not be dispensed with, but a bailment is established until such time as the impending court case can be resolved.

doctorsteph--

Thank you.

-------------------------------------

YaddaYadda--

I guess you have never heard of organized crime.

doctorsteph, thanks. Kshark, yes, thank you I have heard of organized crime and RICO. My concern here is not the seizure of the property itself. It is the seizure of the property without due process.

YaddaYadda---

All right I'll explain this in a different way.

Please read over this. Fraud Trial Excerpt.

And then we have Asset Forfeiture

which is what this case is about.

You may not grasp what happened, which is why I provided the links for you, but this is all legal. You may hate it which is all right, but this is permissible, as property can be seized without any due process or trial.

This is what I am trying to tell you, of thus Looking at the 4th Amendment, then looking at the Forfeiture Laws

If there is suspicion of illegal activity operating out of these buildings, and locations, and dirty money being used for funding say terrorist activity then yes all of the properties can be seized as all of it would be criminal activity.

Kshark- but they cannot seize it and do with it whatever they want with it- they have to hold it safe until the accused has due process- which I know you know. What I don't get is why there is not a greater outrage that there may have been MAJOR terrorist activity going on under our noses. There is outrage at the seizure- but not at the terrorists using our own laws and constitution for their own murderous ends??

doctorsteph--

Ah yeah though I never said anything about once seized they can do as they please.

I am merely pointing out that their are allowed to seize the property without dealing with any court or trial in order to do so.

What I don't get is why there is not a greater outrage that there may have been MAJOR terrorist activity going on under our noses. There is outrage at the seizure- but not at the terrorists using our own laws and constitution for their own murderous ends??

Because a lot of Americans are in deep denial that it is happening on US soil. They do NOT want to believe that this has come to the US. They probably don't even believe they are terrorists, just misunderstood people trying to make a peaceful living. *shrug*

mega shrug!!

Tis a disaster in the making.

Aye, mega shrug.

Kshark, thanks much for the links. I think what I'm doing here is, perhaps, talking about two issues. The first being the seizure of these assets, which I really don't have a problem with. I mean, there still has to be some probable cause shown and if it's there, it's there.

The other issue somewhat ties in, but only in the case of how forfeiture laws have been used against US citizens without common sense. Here's one example of about..a gazillion:

Reining In Forfeiture: Common Sense Reform In The War On Drugs

That's where I was going with my previous posts, but that's really something addressed separately and not on this thread.

No worries mate, I think we got things sorted. *grins*

I'd say yeah the war on drugs is vastly different than terrorism, but the forfeiture concept isn't entirely off.

Now with probable cause there are some cases where it is not needed. Some cases from 1984 the Supreme Court granted the illegal seizure of evidence is admissible.

So there are instances when a search warrant is not needed. Rare exceptions, but still exist.

LOL .......like the first suicide wingnuts weren't Christians and Jews.

Check with your couch on that one.

Extremism is extremism. Coming from Muslims, Jews, Hindu or evangelical Christians. Up to now it is the US fundamentalist Christians who are the prime suspects in violence at abortion clinics gays, even protesting at GI's funerals of those killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

cynically ---- they they are also trying to shut down science.

BobJones

Hindus, Jews, Evangelical Christians or fundamentalist Christians don't have a history of blowing up buildings with planes, using suicide bombers, or continuously threatening our way of life.

Muslims do all that and they instill fear in everyone's heart when they start acting up. Just take a look at what they're doing in the UK. Creating havoc and ruining that country. As a New Yorker, I'm always worried about some Muslim terrorist thinking it would be a good idea to blow up a couple of buildings with thousands of people in them. I don't worry about any other group of people doing something as heinous as that. I'm sure you do understand what I'm saying...

Peach i am currently in the Middle East, it is always on my mind. You should not have to worry about extreme Jihadist in our country(USA), but you do. i.e. Fort Hood, TX. another TERRORIST attack on our soil. It is what it is. Iran sponsors a lot of terrorist activities and should be held accountable at every occasion. F*&# Iran, and they want nuclear weapons. Hello, someone pick up the darn phone send some F-22's with bunker busters and set the Iranian nuclear program back about 50 years. End of story!

You pro settler crowd in the Mideast do not get it.. By promoting the status quo in the mid east creates terrorism.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/jewish-settler-arrested-over-terrorism-20091102-htdk.html

smellitcoming--

Oh I can probably guarantee it, it is already happening. LOL

"Hindus, Jews, Evangelical Christians or fundamentalist Christians don't have a history of blowing up buildings with planes, using suicide bombers, or continuously threatening our way of life."

Really? What about the Murrah building? McVeigh was raised with Christian values. And like I said in my post above, they may not be doing that YET, but it could start at any time. Muslims had to start somewhere, too. When an atheist is threatened with murder for putting up a billboard, this country is in trouble. When groups of fundamentalists get together to try to illegalize birth control, we are in trouble. terrorism can take many forms....bombings, shootings (like Fort Hood or last years military base mass shooting by John Russell) to trying to institute a taliban-like law here in the U.S., as with gay marriage, birth control, etc.

What about the Murrah building? McVeigh was raised with Christian values.

But the difference is that McVeigh didn't blow up the Murrah building in the name of Yahweh. McVeigh may have been raised a Christian, but he certainly was not acting like one when he blew up the building. BIG distinction.

Really? What about the Murrah building? McVeigh was raised with Christian values.

Uh McVeigh himself said he was not really religious. So nope cannot use him He was Anti-Government, he was not a christian terrorist, not even close.

Exactly what I was thinking...McVeigh acted as a deranged individual. Nothing to do with his religion. No country backing him up. Only a bunch of more deranged individuals agreed with him. Muslim terrorists are backed by foreign governments and entire countries. That's a totally different situation.

McVeigh himself said he was not really religious

It is not the saying it is the action. Israel keeps saying they want peace but every now and then they turn around and do something to disrupt the possibility of long term peace.

Peach-1322200
BobJones

Hindus, Jews, Evangelical Christians or fundamentalist Christians don't have a history of blowing up buildings with planes, using suicide bombers, or continuously threatening our way of life.

Ignorance is just a book away.

Really? What about the Murrah building? McVeigh was raised with Christian values.
Uh McVeigh himself said he was not really religious. So nope cannot use him He was Anti-Government, he was not a christian terrorist, not even close.

Sand please

moshawn--

Wrong, considering the fact that people are claiming he was a Christian terrorist when absolutely nothing he did was related to religion.

Israel keeps saying they want peace but every now and then they turn around and do something to disrupt the possibility of long term peace.

Well that is flat out positively HILARIOUS since what was the age old Islamic phrase, Islam is the religion of PEACE. LOL

Islam is a religion that is for sure, it is MISSING the peace part.

As I told you before it is a 2 way street. If you fail to see if that way, you are part of the problem.

Funny how the people you say are "only interested" in living simply by the Bible are the biggest terrorists when it comes to trying to force others to live their way. Why does someone who PRETENDS (yes, pretends) to be a bible believer get to dictate how I live? They don't - that's the answer. Christians might enjoy living by Taliban-like rules, but many Americans don't, and that is our right.

As for "godless", the most godless people on earth are those who believe in god. think about it.

boons_orama-131388--

So you have met every single Christian, especially those that follow the bible, around the world? Damn that is impressive. So what did they all say?

As for "godless", the most godless people on earth are those who believe in god. think about it.

Yeah I thought about it, it makes no sense.

The reason they are turned up side down is the Greek and Hebrew dont say what the church claims it says.

Bob Jones

All one has to do is watch the video that Krishna has posted on Newsvine about what's happening in the UK with Muslims. That scares the heck out of me and anyone with half a brain.

You refuse to accept the fact that Muslim terrorists scare people not in an abstract manner but in a very concrete way. No one group has the right to threaten the existence of any other group and scare them into submission. Their ultimate goal is to destroy western civilization and establish a world dominated by Islam. I'm not making this up...all one has to do is to listen to the rants spewed by various Muslim terrorist groups.

Again, I direct you to watch the video posted by Krishna about Muslims in the UK. These are not terrorists...they're supposedly the peaceful Muslims advocating the violent overthrow of the british govt, throwing out the Queen of England, and making Islam the dominant religion in that country whether the british want it or not. We can't allow what's happening there to happen in our country and it won't. Obama seems to have gotten the message about the dangers that they pose to this country and its citizens. Seizing the mosques and buildings owned by the mosques is a first step in preventing the spread of these frightening beliefs.

I am not an enemy of good sense Peach.

"You refuse to accept the fact that Muslim terrorists scare people not in an abstract manner but in a very concrete way. No one group has the right to threaten the existence of any other group and scare them into submission. Their ultimate goal is to destroy western civilization and establish a world dominated by Islam."

I agree. But do you refuse to accept that christians have lately been organizing to try to force others to submit to THEIR will? Christians, like Muslims, would love nothing more than an earth dominated by Christianity, which is why they forced conversions at SWORDPOINT centuries ago. I'm not a fan of ANY religion on this earth, because they ALL think they are superior and have the right to dictate what the rest of us believe and how we live. right now Muslims are doing the majority of violence, but violence is creeping into other religions as well. In Israel, the populace is being terrorized by groups of ultra-orthodox who threaten to kill people, pour acid on women, beat people (even soldiers!), set fire to stores, stone cars, people and police, and so on, for not being modest enough, or "halakhic" enough (which means following religious rule). Israelites have turned a blind eye for so long that it has gotten to the point where the police will not even venture into certain neighborhoods out of fear.

I refuse to allow that to happen here in the U.S. with ANY religion. When I see people banding together to ban birth control, as they are in Florida, my hackles are raised and I'm ready for a fight. because THIS is how it starts.

boons- the spreading of gospel does not come with a threat if you do not submit- so your simile falls quite short.

boons_orama-131388--

So..........what Christians were killed for converting OUT of Christianity? Can ya name any Christian suicide bombers?

LOL I love when people always blame religion.

Just ya know something to realize, as long as HUMANS exist, violence exists. Religion or not, doesn't for one second matter, HUMANS are just violent. LOL

All I can say is Amen, Kshark!

smellitcoming--

Well it is sad but true.

Sure you can try and remove religion from the equation, but Humans are just violent creatures. No peace comes when religion is gone, no cease to violence happens when religion is gone. Humans in general are just rude, evil, mean, violent creatures. Always will be. We are Jekyll and Hyde. So at the turn of the token humans can also be kind, generous, compassionate etc etc etc.

The majority of the criminals in the world are not committing crimes in the name of religion.

Anyway, back to Iran's whinging, which is funny.

It is what it is, sad but true!

Bob Jones

peach is just the secretary - the bosses are elsewhere he/she represents. See how he/she just provides the references for others without any personal thoughts of self rationality and debate.

It amazes me how naive some of the people that post here are! We have a verified, established, well known sponsor of terrorism, IRAN. And people are willing to look the other way, or say we can negotiate with the rats. Odumbo is perceived as a week leader by this rouge government. They are spot on sorry to say. The way to negotiate with radicals like Iran is from a point of shear strength. We have the big stick, but we need for Iran to realize that we are deadly serious when it come time to use it! Does Odumbo have the will to use it? They laugh at him! These Mosque's will end up suing the Government, a liberal court will side with them, God forbid.

Just pull out all of our troops and let Israel and India do what they have been wanting to do for years...Iran condemns our seizure...did they say anything about their seizure of 40 of our citizens in the 70s or the three they have right now???

I wonder what happened?

Chris you quote ancient text over and over in several threads- is that all you got?? I think many people have countered with current events for which you have no answer.

There are ancient texts to draw from while many use the same texts or translated versions where there is nothing there, yet they see and read things that's aren't there and then act on it.

Its like you reading the bible and saying, I don't see where its says to kill an abortion doctor, yet Schroder reads it and kills the doctor, in Christ's name?

Arabs are the same, there is nothing in their texts either, yet they read what they want out of it.

So if you toss the baby out with the bath water, start with the Christians and work your way down.

Until you an apply what you pretend others are to your self, you are just prejudice and ignorant.

Sorry, but I would be as hard on any murderer- Christian or otherwise. Islam is not a religion of hate or murder, but the radicals say it is. My friends say not to confuse the radical islamist politic with the islamic faith. Maybe those who are justifying this man's criminal actions with his "religious beliefs" should re examine why they are quick to villefy christian extremists and protect muslim/radical islamists. That was where we started. There is no excuse for killing in God's name, no matter how you pray to that God.

It sucks when people are affraid to do anything for the fear of being called a hate monger, bigot,..... Someone screwed the pooch in this case BAD!