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Religious expression often frowned on at work

Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:04 PM EST
business, only-on-msnbc-com, careers, work, button, employee, religious, employers, depot, headscarf
msnbc.com News — By Eve Tahmincioglu
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— An employee at a ski resort in Keystone, Colo., was told by a supervisor not to play Christian music while on duty.

A doctor interviewing for a job at a medical group in the Dallas area was told she would not be allowed to wear her hijab, a traditional Muslim head scarf.

And Home Depot recently fired a worker in Okeechobee, Fla., for wearing a button on his orange apron that mentioned God.

Employers sometimes frown on outward displays of religion even as some employees demand their right to express themselves. The laws aren’t always clearly defined, but wearing your religion on your sleeve in a largely secular American workplace could hinder your career.

Religious bias charges filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission hit a record high of 3,273 in 2008, up from 1,709 a decade ago. Increased religious diversity in the labor force and more employees engaging in religious expression at work may be factors behind the increase, said EEOC spokesman David Grinberg.

Bias complaints of all kinds have risen in the recession, partly because so many millions of people have lost jobs.

Employers are required to provide “reasonable accommodation for the religious practices and beliefs of employees” under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. But the question is, what exactly is reasonable?

Religious clothing
“It depends on the nature of an employer’s business, the impact on their business” and whether religious expression creates an undue hardship on the company, said Leslie Silverman, a lawyer at Proskauer Rose in Washington and former vice chair of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. It also can be a problem if one person's religious expression is perceived as harassment of another employee.

Employers would have a hard time making a case against religious garb such as hijabs, yarmulkes or turbans because “it’s hard for an employer to suggest having an employee wear that is an undue hardship,” Silverman said.

An exception to that rule could be made for safety issues. For example, an employer might ban certain kinds of clothing or long beards that might get caught in machinery.

Balancing religious freedom in the workplace can be a “thorny” issue, agreed Eric Peterson of the Maryland Society for Human Resource Management State Council, who believes the goal should be to be as inclusive as possible.

But proselytizing, or trying to convert others to your faith, is a workplace no-no, he said.

Christian music at work
In the case of the ski resort, a supervisor at Vail Corp. ski resort operations forbade employee Lisa Marie Cornwell from discussing her Christian beliefs at work and from listening to Christian music during work hours, even though there were no such restrictions on other workers, according to an EEOC settlement.

The supervisor ridiculed her requests and created “a sexually hostile work environment.” After complaining to human resources, Cornwell was fired in retaliation, the EEOC concluded.

Vail agreed earlier this year to pay $80,000 to settle the case with the EEOC.

In the case of the medical group and the headscarf kerfuffle, the employer appeared to backtrack on its initial objections.

Dr. Hena Zaki of Plano, Texas, applied for a job at medical group CareNow and was told during the interview process that she would not be allowed to wear the headscarf at work as part of its “no hat” policy.

A pro-Muslim rights group, Council on American-Islamic Relations, advocating on behalf of Zaki, sent a letter to CareNow noting Zaki’s rights. “They didn’t understand the law,” said Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for CAIR.

CareNow officials did not return phone calls, but in a statement to local media following news reports of the hijab flap, CareNow officials said: "We apologize to Dr. Zaki for the misunderstanding. We will clarify our policy and will continue our ongoing sensitivity training."

Fired for wearing ‘God’ button
The brouhaha at Home Depot involved an employee who wore a button that said “One Nation Under God, Indivisible” on his orange apron and was fired because of it.

"I've worn it for well over a year, and I support my country and God," Trevor Keezer, the cashier who was terminated, told The Associated Press in October.

Keezer’s attorney Kara Skorupa told the AP she planned to sue, but she did not return phone calls.

Home Depot spokesman Ron DeFeo said in a statement that it was a dress-code issue.

“Badges, buttons and pins are a big part of our culture. We give away thousands of them a year to our associates to recognize great customer service, store accomplishments, company milestones or to commemorate our community affairs initiatives,” he said. “And we have a long-standing, well-communicated policy that states that only company-provided pins and badges can be worn by our associates.”

Taking a religious stand at work can be costly to your career.

“If you want to advance in most workplaces, it is really important to fit into what the culture is,” said Lynne Eisaguirre, former employment attorney and author of “We Need to Talk: Tough Conversations with your Boss.”

The trend lately is to create a more secular environment, she added, especially during the holiday season when many employers are opting for non-denominational parties and décor at work.

Having small religious symbols at your cubicle or around your neck probably won’t cross the line, but if you’re creating a shrine at your work station or covering yourself with religious messages, that may not be a good career move, Eisaguirre said. “Many times it's co-workers who can inadvertently create a hostile environment, especially for those who do not follow the dominant religion in their work group.” 

Corporations have a long way to go before diversity is truly accepted. When’s the last time you saw a CEO of a major corporation wearing a headscarf or sporting a God button?

When it comes to acceptance of all religions at work, “it’s better than it used to be,” Eisaguirre maintained, but “in most corporate cultures there’s a certain boundary on what you look like and act like.

“The reality is we all give up something in exchange for a paycheck,” she said.

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Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 ... 5
For-a-fairer-wage

You give up your rights when you are hired on to a private company.

  • 37 votes
#1 - Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:50 PM EST
Rev. Mark James-

Thank you!

  • 6 votes
#1.1 - Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:33 PM EST
Nate-14583

You don't give up your right. The employer is the one who pays the bills for the property, they are the one who pays your salary, if you don't like the conditions you can petition them to change or you can quit. No one is forcing you to work for anyone else. And no one can stop you from writing/talking about your experience to others.

  • 16 votes
#1.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:09 AM EST
solidox

Nate-14583

You don't give up your right.

True, because you don't have rights to religious or otherwise personal expression at work anyway.

Religion is a private concern. All private concerns stop when you punch in.

  • 31 votes
#1.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:36 AM EST
Gregorovich

Actually, you do not give up all your rights. For instance, did you know that you can secretly record a meeting with your boss and have it be admissable in court? This is something you can not do in almost any other case with private citizens without a warant. Also, most states still do not have hate laws (laws that govern what you think) so you have the right to think whatever you want. Right now I'm thinking that you're on the wrong side of this argument.

  • 5 votes
#1.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:41 AM EST
solidox

No, really. Actually you do give up your rights because if your conception of "free expression" angers your boss, he can fire you. Especially if you're in a "right to work" state. There is no right to "secretly record" your boss, either.

  • 11 votes
#1.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:48 AM EST
ragtop-618739

Greg- you are not correct in this as a general statement. Every state is different with regard to recording other people. In some states, called one-party states, you may be able to secretly record a conversation. In other states, so-called two party states, it is illegal; and can range from a misdemeanor to a felony to record a conversation without the other person's knowledge and consent. You need to be sure of your facts before you give leagl advice.

  • 10 votes
#1.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:51 AM EST
Gregorovich

ragtop, you are correct in that I didn't realize the recording I was speaking about was a state issue. In the state of Iowa (a right to work state) it is legal.

  • 7 votes
#1.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:57 AM EST
LonoKemp

Also, most states still do not have hate laws (laws that govern what you think) so you have the right to think whatever you want

At risk of going off topic: that's inaccurate. You can still think whatever you want. Hate laws only punish people more severely for committing a crime when race etc...is a motivating factor. So if you want to murder someone, but not fall under hate crimes legislation just don't scream "I hate white people" while murdering a white person in an attempt to terrorize their community.

  • 9 votes
#1.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:00 AM EST
Gregorovich

Mr. Kemp, hate crimes refer to intent. Intent is garnered from beliefs (what someone thinks.) If someone kills another person (white kills black) it is only a hate crime if the white person thinks that black people are bad. That's why it's called hate. Hate is something that someone thinks.

  • 3 votes
#1.9 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:04 AM EST
Manimal74

You give up your rights when you are hired on to a private company.

You don't need to play Christian music at work to convert people. All you have to do is be yourself. People that go around saying "Jesus this and Jesus that" all day have weak faith.

You can show God is in your life by never even mentioning Him at all, and listening to some rock at work. You'll be much more popular at work. And the more popular you are, the more people you will convert.

  • 15 votes
#1.10 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:09 AM EST
Monmichka

Where is this private company, Iran? You don't give up your rights when you enter the workplace. Having a job does not mean your constitutional rights cease to exist for eight hours.

  • 4 votes
#1.11 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:22 AM EST
yvonnemari

Mr. Kemp, hate crimes refer to intent. Intent is garnered from beliefs (what someone thinks.) If someone kills another person (white kills black) it is only a hate crime if the white person thinks that black people are bad. That's why it's called hate. Hate is something that someone thinks.

What Kemp was trying to explain is what could be used against you in court.

If you kill someone and say nothing about anything, no matter what tattoos you have on your body, what literature you have mailed to your house, or groups you belong to (though there does seem to be a line in the sand on this one), you are not likely to be charged with a hate crime.

The crime still has to be proven in court, and for now the easiest way to convict someone on a hate crime just happens to be their "excited utterances" during the comission of the crime.

Short of that, you can think what you want.

  • 1 vote
#1.12 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:23 AM EST
LonoKemp

Hate is something that someone thinks.

I agree. The role of courts and juries is to figure out intent. This is no more criminalizing of thought than having stiffer penalties for pre-meditated murder vs. negligent homicide. You might be right that they "govern what you think" to some extent, but your characterization of "you have the right to think whatever you want only because there aren't hate crime laws" was the portion I took issue with.

  • 3 votes
#1.13 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:28 AM EST
Smc31569

Monmichka....actually your constitutional rights only apply to GOVERNMENT situations....gov't property, institutions, employment, etc. A privately owned/run business can require or forbid you do do anything they want as long as it is clearly spelled out and applies to ALL employees.

In any event.... Religion has NO PLACE in the workplace. PERIOD.

  • 17 votes
#1.14 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:56 AM EST
Dave in NM

What's not being said is that the flip-side of this issue is even truer. Yes, if you wear a divisive and inaccurate "one nation UNDER GOD" button, you may, and should, be asked to remove it. But try wearing a button advocating reason over religion, and you will be subject to quicker and harsher action. Most of the bosses in the American workplace, including those enforcing rules against religious expression, are nonetheless Christian. Make overt displays supporting a secular society, and you will most likely find yourself fired over the next minor infraction. There is definitely far more prejudice against the irreligious than the religious in America.

  • 10 votes
#1.15 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:18 AM EST
Ray T

Not in this country you don't give up your rights if hired by a private company.

  • 3 votes
#1.16 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:34 AM EST
Dave in NM

Not in this country you don't give up your rights if hired by a private company.

True. You still have the absolute right to quit if you don't like the company's policy. It's just that Constitutional rights are irrelevant where a private employer is concerned. But you put it more succinctly.

  • 7 votes
#1.17 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:43 AM EST
Janeinthisworld

First, there is no legal right to espouse any of your opinions, religious or otherwise, while you are at your place of work. If you think there is, you need to study the law a little closer.

There are many people for whom their religion permeates every aspect of their lives. It is part of everything they do and everything they think. I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is being excessively confronted by their blatant expressions of religion on a regular basis. These expressions should be kept to a minimum in the workplace. If they have the right to express their religion in an obvious (and sometimes garish) way, don't I also have a right to be free from viewing their obvious statements of religiousness?

I once worked with a woman who made references to her god and her savior and her faith almost constantly. I tolerated it for a while, but then I just got sick of it. I didn't feel like I needed to be bombarded by her constant comments about her religion all the time. It felt like she was always trying to convert everyone. I finally politely told her that while I was happy she was so immersed in her faith I found it presumptuous and a little judgmental and asked her to please refrain. Of course she wanted to "talk about it" (really, just another opportunity for her to proselytize), I simply said I thought we'd talked enough about it and it was time for her to stop talking.

  • 13 votes
#1.18 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:21 PM EST
David Jewell

Mr. Kemp, hate crimes refer to intent. Intent is garnered from beliefs (what someone thinks.) If someone kills another person (white kills black) it is only a hate crime if the white person thinks that black people are bad. That's why it's called hate. Hate is something that someone thinks.

It is not a crime to hate. It is not a crime to THINK anything. It can be a crime to ACT on those thoughts. I may THINK I'd like to kill my mother-in-law, but I am guilty of no crime until I harm her.

  • 4 votes
#1.19 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:39 PM EST
bonos_rama

"Of course she wanted to "talk about it" (really, just another opportunity for her to proselytize), I simply said I thought we'd talked enough about it and it was time for her to stop talking."

Yes, and she probably felt victimized, as though you were "warring" on her faith. Oh brother.

  • 4 votes
#1.20 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:49 AM EST
Monmichka

SMC - I disagree. The bill of rights does not go null and void just because I am at work. I still have those rights. Does that mean that I hold worship service in my office? No. But walking in here doesn't transform me into an atheist either. They maybe can forbid people from holding a worship service or handing out pamphlets. That's fine with me, actually. However, NO ONE can strip me of my constitutional rights.

  • 3 votes
#1.21 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:13 AM EST
David Jewell

No one can strip your beliefs from your head, and no one is trying to, Monmichka. Just don't get them on anyone who doesn't want them!

    #1.22 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:47 AM EST
    Dave in NM

    Monmichka: You aren't reading what is written here. Constitutional rights are only the rights the government grants you. Unless you are publicly employed, your argument is mistaken. The Bill of Rights doesn't cease to exist when you work for a private employer; it is just irrelevant.

    • 5 votes
    #1.23 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:27 PM EST
    lk in la

    Constitutional rights and the Bill of Rights technically do not cease to exist anywhere anyone walks in the United States. But many times in American history these rights have been willfully violated, even by legal bodies. The reason why these rights do not seem to exist in modern times is because of social changes that do not necessarily support these rights and which some believe are one reason for the disintegration of American society that alot of people older than about 35 years old notice.

    • 3 votes
    #1.24 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:13 PM EST
    Janeinthisworld

    People, READ THE LAWS! It's not that you give up your rights, exactly, but when you are at work you are on private property and you are hired to perform a specific duty for your employer. Your employer gets to decide how to represent his/her company, and if the employer feels you do not appropriately represent his/her business, including advertising your personal opinions and beliefs, they are within THEIR rights to fire you. You do not go to work to make a statement about yourself, you do it to make money for your boss and to earn a salary. That's it.

    And the bill of rights applies primarily to protect us from GOVERNMENT abuse. The government cannot censor your political opinions. Your boss can, however, if you are doing it at work and in conflict with specific written policies which people know about before they take a job.

    • 6 votes
    #1.25 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:51 PM EST
    tactical45

    Janeinthisworld---Great comment.

      #1.26 - Sat Jan 2, 2010 12:31 PM EST
      Reply
      Tyler Durden-330839

      Matthew 6

      • 4 votes
      Reply#2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:22 AM EST
      Richard Schloss

      Interesting that you would cite a Bible passage while using a screen name taken from an imaginary character in a particularly violent film (Fight Club) -- kind of like God in the Bible, an imaginary character in a particularly violent piece of mythology.

      • 11 votes
      #2.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:54 AM EST
      CJ-1139386

      That's a typical Christian for you.... Silly people

      • 3 votes
      #2.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:37 PM EST
      JPJohnson

      Matthew 6 indeed:

      http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_teachings_of_jesus/on_forgiveness/lk06_37a.html

      even the bible says do it in private:

      http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_teachings_of_jesus/on_prayer/mt06_05.html

      • 4 votes
      #2.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:34 PM EST
      Reply
      Ron-994710

      The more "God" is kept out of things the better. This country -- and the Muslim countries -- are becoming theocracies that are being hobbled by the bigotry of those who think their way of thinking should apply to everyone. We need to stamp out God.

      • 30 votes
      #3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:22 AM EST
      MKC-TN

      The problem is not "God" itself... it's the intolerance people have for another person's belief. This includes those that don't believe in any type of higher power. Whatever one believes doesn't make them better or smarter... just something that makes them different. Unfortunately you have "I'm better than you because I do/ don't believe in 'this' God(s)" that are making it difficult. Stamping out God just simply forces what non-believers way of thinking onto everyone else.

      It's the attitude not the subject that makes the atmosphere hostile. When people can get over themselves and practice tolerance for each other... things will be less tense and more productive.

      • 16 votes
      #3.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:36 AM EST
      FatSean

      I am not a fan of religion as I feel that belief without evidence is damaging to our society.

      That said, my main issue with religious expression in the workplace is that there seems to be a double standard. Those who complain that they want the right to advertise their beliefs tend to get very offended and claim persecution when the a-religious advertise their beliefs. If I say "There is no god", folks get upset and claim I am persecuting them despite over 80% of Americans believing in gods. Nobody likes to be told that their beliefs are false, I totally understand. But don't they realize that common statements such as "God bless you!" are the same thing to those who don't believe in gods?

      It's best to keep the topic out of the workplace altogether if you ask me.

      • 29 votes
      #3.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:44 AM EST
      Jim-346431

      Religion = intolerance = ignorance = weakness = failure to survive!

      • 16 votes
      #3.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:13 AM EST
      MKC-TN

      Jim... wow, didn't know were weren't surviving as a species for thousands and thousands of years... thanks for letting me know that human species is extinct.

      If it isn't religion then it's race, nationality, sexual orientation, IQ, and even food preference that makes one feel superior ... there will always be something to make one intolerable to another.

      • 12 votes
      #3.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:18 AM EST
      Gregorovich

      Jim then why is it that the countries that have done the most for themselves were founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs and laws? You're argument just doesn't hold water. Mine....well it walks on it.

      • 8 votes
      #3.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:33 AM EST
      solidox

      Gregorovich

      Jim then why is it that the countries that have done the most for themselves were founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs and laws? You're argument just doesn't hold water. Mine....well it walks on it.

      Your argument is purely subjective and isn't really an argument at all.

      • 14 votes
      #3.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:37 AM EST
      Gregorovich

      So you go drag your wife to some African country and let me know how it is at the refugee camps. Or go drag her to the middle east where she can't speak or vote. Or go drag your family to China where you can't cross the country without permission (bribing officials). Good luck. Even the secularists' favorite, France, is cracking down on people from other places because they are making things worse.

      • 4 votes
      #3.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:50 AM EST
      jeff-813425

      Gregorovich america is mostly owned by china. china is athiest

      • 2 votes
      #3.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:13 AM EST
      Arizona Resident

      No, I don't think so....

        #3.9 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:18 AM EST
        Brad Melton

        Gregorovich

        Jim then why is it that the countries that have done the most for themselves were founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs and laws? You're argument just doesn't hold water. Mine....well it walks on it.

        Japan has done quite well for itself and is a long shot from being a Christian Country. China and India are on the rise. While I'll grant you, for better or worse, European hedgmony was the single most important influence on the world circa 1300-1900, if anything its ethical system based on Judeo-Christian morality did a lot of harm to a lot of people. Slavery and robbing undeveloped nations of their natural resources quickly come to mind. Of course, some churches used their ethics to support such activity.

        But back to the story. When you're at work, you're there to work. Anything else is subject to what the boss dictates.

        • 9 votes
        #3.10 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:21 AM EST
        Patrick-444702

        Merry Christmas, @!$%#.

        • 4 votes
        #3.11 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:30 AM EST
        Doctor Larry

        Great. Holding up Japan as a model society. Yeah - that WWII thing was just a dream, huh? Do you remember December 7th? Do you remember why it is marked as a day of rememberance?

        I liked this one:

        But back to the story. When you're at work, you're there to work. Anything else is subject to what the boss dictates.

        which was posted at 9:21 CST. Brad - are you at work? ;)

        • 4 votes
        #3.12 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:35 AM EST
        Brad Melton

        Doctor Larry

        Great. Holding up Japan as a model society. Yeah - that WWII thing was just a dream, huh? ....which was posted at 9:21 CST. Brad - are you at work? ;)

        I'm retired; from the Army. And the war ended 65 years ago.

        • 10 votes
        #3.13 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:45 AM EST
        romilio

        Gregorovich Success is not proportional to type of religion. The most Judeo Christian nations have been on top is around 300 years, the British and Spanish empires, others less than that, including the US, which has been on top since 1945, not even a century.

        You might think so because what you have seen through your life time, but other regional non Judeo Christian empires lasted longer on top, the Egyptians for thousands of years, the Assyrians, Persians and Roman for several hundreds and in Asia and the Americas, the Hindu, Chinese, Maya, Inca, etc, also lasted more than 300 years.

        • 11 votes
        #3.14 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:46 AM EST
        Dave in NM

        FatSean pretty much says it all. Christians complaining of persecution are engaging in the most transparent and cynical hypocrisy. Pretty much like everything else they do.

        • 7 votes
        #3.15 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:25 AM EST
        falconer33

        And Doctor Larry, if you look back into Japanese history ( I know, reading) you will see the speed that Japan developed into an industrial nation once they opened up to the West. It took approximatley 50 years while Europe took around 150. So, WWII excluded, they did pretty well for a non-judeo-christian country.

        • 1 vote
        #3.16 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:29 PM EST
        JPJohnson

        Religion has very little to do with a country's success. Natural resources, technology, and the education level of the populace are the biggest reason for a nation's development.

        All the technology around you was developed by someone who dedicated their time and effort to it. No angels came down from heaven and gave us anything. The Romans created a fairy tale and people still follow it without question. Sad.

        • 5 votes
        #3.17 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:35 PM EST
        bonos_rama

        Gregorovich, a very large percentage of countries that believe in Jesus are socialistic. I find that interesting; don't you? Look at all of Europe. And Canada. And the U.S., which, according to many, is actually now MARXIST.

        Jesus seems to attract socialism/communism...

        • 2 votes
        #3.18 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:54 AM EST
        sms29s66

        boons, that should not be a surprise to anyone. Jesus lived and preached a communal, socialistic message.

        • 2 votes
        #3.19 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:17 PM EST
        Mr G

        MKC_TN - Well said. The various topics you mention are merely outlets for one's frightened ego to reassure itself.

        "Small eyes" and flawed ego structure due to unhealthy conditioning are the real issues.

          #3.20 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:35 AM EST
          Reply
          CRaig Coletta

          I don't know if any of the people mentioned in the article define themselves as part of the christian right, so I direct this comment to the knee-jerk christian rightists who will, I'm sure jump on this story with a thunderous roar of ignorance and self righteousness-- this is the same thing that religious political rightists have been trying to do to gays and lesbians. "Just don't make a display of it" "Keep it at home" "We don't want to look at that"

          Doesn't feel very good, does it folks?

          • 34 votes
          #4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:43 AM EST
          Brad Melton

          Amen! : )

          • 12 votes
          #4.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:45 AM EST
          Jim-346431

          Ha-ha. Very good point!

          • 8 votes
          #4.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:14 AM EST
          Matt Stieber

          with a thunderous roar of ignorance and self righteousness-

          Wow, have you re-read your post??? It's a perfect example. The only difference between you and the pseudo-religious is a god.

          • 2 votes
          #4.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:32 AM EST
          CRaig Coletta

          Ignorance? No, my opinion is based on empirical data and consistent principles, unlike theirs.

          Self-righteousness? No, my actions are based on countering attempts to oppress...they're purely defensive.

          Try again, Matt

          • 6 votes
          #4.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:42 AM EST
          Matt Stieber

          Okay, I tried again. Same result. You sound as self-righteous as the fundamentalists.

          • 3 votes
          #4.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:47 AM EST
          Brad Melton

          Craig is about the farthest man from self righteous there is. And his view of the religious extremists is right on target.

          • 6 votes
          #4.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:23 AM EST
          Doctor Larry

          When Craig can only resort to name calling, he has already lost the battle.

          Merry Christmas.

          • 4 votes
          #4.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:31 AM EST
          Brad Melton

          If the shoe fits, don't complain about the cobbler who helps you slide it on your foot.

          • 4 votes
          #4.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:32 AM EST
          Matt Stieber

          Craig is about the farthest man from self righteous there is.

          Brad. How very nice of you to say that about Craig. It sounds almost.....Christlike!

          • 4 votes
          #4.9 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:52 AM EST
          Brad Melton

          Only in the mind of one who divides the world into two distinct parts: good and evil, then proceeds to destroy the evil. But let me repeat myself without deifying anyone; Craig isn't self-righteous. You wanna see self righteous the best example are Jebus Freaks and Bible thumpers. They do love to remind everyone how they have the only trunk line to Heaven and everyone else is going to Hell.

          • 4 votes
          #4.10 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:59 AM EST
          Richard-1515565

          "gays and lesbians. "Just don't make a display of it" "Keep it at home" "We don't want to look at that"

          I can live with this.

          • 3 votes
          #4.11 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:02 AM EST
          Brad Melton

          Richard-1515565

          "gays and lesbians. "Just don't make a display of it" "Keep it at home" "We don't want to look at that"

          I can live with this.

          Gays and lesbians aren't practicing an intolerant religious ideology and telling others they're going to Hell for not doing so as well.

          • 10 votes
          #4.12 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:07 AM EST
          Dave in NM

          "gays and lesbians. "Just don't make a display of it" "Keep it at home" "We don't want to look at that"
          I can live with this.

          How about "don't ask, don't tell" for all religious views everywhere? I can sure live with that.

          Gays, unlike the religious, are doing no harm.

          • 13 votes
          #4.13 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:27 AM EST
          Richard-1515565

          To do so would be to admit that to be a practicing homosexual is wrong would not further their cause.

            #4.14 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:27 AM EST
            Chuck Wavy Dean

            Unfortunately there ae many christian facists in this country who have zero consideration for other people's points of view. Overt religious expression has no place in the workplace unless you are working for a religious organization like a church or temple. It is best to keep the workplace a secular environment -- if the religiosos in this country want to express their religious views they can do so in their own place of worship and on their own time. They don't have to impose their religious views on the people they work with.

            • 6 votes
            #4.15 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:02 PM EST
            rusty-390403

            Did the employee share work space with other employees?

            The article says that other employees were not subject to similar restrictions on listening to the music of their choice in their work areas - that's where the employer ran aground in this situation.

            • 2 votes
            #4.16 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:13 PM EST
            RAC 0129

            The article says that other employees were not subject to similar restrictions on listening to the music of their choice in their work areas

            DId the other music results in complaints being filed?? If they didn't - then tough @!$%#. If they did and the employer didn't act consistently - then bad for the employer.

              #4.17 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:15 PM EST
              Reply
              ccfarris

              Religion is divisive. Religious activities, including clothing, buttons, signs, solicitation, music, etc. do not belong in the workplace where employees cannot protect themselves from such offensive behaviors.

              • 11 votes
              Reply#5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:50 AM EST
              Gregorovich

              Atheist says what?

              • 2 votes
              #5.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:31 AM EST
              Doctor Larry

              Protect yourself? Are you hurt by someone else wearing a button that says "God Bless America"? Does the phrase "Merry Christmas" leave a bruise on you? Are you so weak that you think everyone should conform to your belief or non-belief?

              Merry Christmas and God Bless America.

              • 7 votes
              #5.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:28 AM EST
              Fred Evil

              Yes, visible signs of ignorance or chosen stupidity makes it very hard to take someone seriously.

              If someone walked around with a button that said 'I love Frodo!' I'd give them the same wary eye I give Xtians.

              • 4 votes
              #5.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:53 AM EST
              Dave in NM

              Atheist says what?

              Problem is what?

              Are you hurt by someone else wearing a button that says "God Bless America"?

              Only if that person is in the course of public employment. Otherwise, I'm just disappointed by their wishful thinking. "One nation UNDER GOD," on the other hand, does cause damage, by misrepresenting history and creating an "us and them" mentality that attempts to disenfranchise non- and poly-theists.

              Are you so weak that you think everyone should conform to your belief or non-belief?

              No. Same question to you.

              • 4 votes
              #5.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:30 AM EST
              Hippo Potamus

              Merry Christmas and God Bless America.

              When discussion of religious expression in public come up, Christians often use traditions and non-harm as arguments for dispalying religious symbols.

              But what if the button said, "Allah bless America." What if your doctor walked into the room with a turban? What if the sales clerk had a Darwin fish on his lapel?

              • 4 votes
              #5.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:09 PM EST
              Richard Schloss

              Dr. Larry,

              On behalf of my Jewish and Moslem friends, let me wish you a Happy Hanukkah and a Blessed Ramadan. Oh, and a Happy Saturnalia on behalf of the pagans! Are you insulted now because I acknowledged OTHER religions and NOT Christianity? Well, that is precisely how non-Christians feel at this time of year. Try to have a little empathy.

              • 6 votes
              #5.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:11 PM EST
              Andrew-1162039

              I don't care if someone wears a button saying "God Bless America" but if Home Depot has a no non-approved buttons policy then you don't wear a non-approved button. If you're working at Home Depot you're representing the company to the customers, and so it's their right to institute a dress code. I have to wear business clothing to work, which means I can't wear my "Intelligent Design Makes My Monkey Sad" t-shirt. Does this infringe on my rights as an atheist? Nope.

              • 5 votes
              #5.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:25 PM EST
              TicTac-804370

              Andrew,

              Where can I find the "intelligent design makes my monkey sad" t-shirt? Me and my wife would love to get a hold of one!

              • 3 votes
              #5.8 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:36 PM EST
              Reply
              misterbeal

              Not too many years ago Americans took pride in their religious tolerance. Now we seem to take pride in having none.

              • 17 votes
              Reply#6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:51 AM EST
              Dave in NM

              Well said. Hate is the new love.

              • 4 votes
              #6.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:33 AM EST
              RJ C

              Very good point. The country was founded on freedom of religion; however, the fundamentalist movement in the country think that it is a christian country. The founders of this country were persecuted for their brand of christianity. The fundamentalists today want to do the same. It's their way or the highway. Very troubling.

              • 9 votes
              #6.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:35 PM EST
              Dave in NM

              The founders of this country were persecuted for their brand of christianity.

              And for their lack of Christianity, too. Many were deists, and none regarded this as a Christian nation. They would have been appalled and disgusted by the suggestion.

              • 7 votes
              #6.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:48 PM EST
              RJ C

              Dave, Thanks for clarifying. I was trying to keep it simple for some of our friends out there.

              • 3 votes
              #6.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:53 PM EST
              dAt crAzy bOk

              The fact that religious tolerance has gone down can probably be attributed to the fact that only a generation or two ago, Christians tried to put their stamp on EVERYTHING. The evangelical movement of the 50s, as well as the impact of WW2 and our desire to unify behind SOMETHING.

              Inevitably, once these events occured, those who aren't religious began to get the feeling that they were being marginalized due to christianity and its growing influence. But, look it up before the pre-evangelical era of the 1950s. Perhaps if religion hadn't become such a pervasive force, then those who aren't religious wouldn't feel the need to fight for their right to be non-religious.

              • 3 votes
              #6.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:38 PM EST
              Reply
              baby turtle

              The workplace is for work......Not for being the whole you and bringing out your sexual orientation or your religion or your political beliefs. It is for work. What you do after work,

              well....that's your thing

              • 16 votes
              Reply#7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:54 AM EST
              Gregorovich

              I still wish you a Merry Christmas!

              • 6 votes
              #7.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:31 AM EST
              baby turtle

              Thank you....I will celebrate it after work.... ;)

              • 7 votes
              #7.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:58 AM EST
              Reply
              plantsman

              I don't want to be pelted with religious expression at work -- that's what places of worship are for.

              To me, foisting one's belief's on other people while on the company dime is unprofessional and inappropriate.

              • 21 votes
              #8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:03 AM EST
              Gregorovich

              I still wish you a Merry Christmas!

              • 5 votes
              #8.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:30 AM EST
              Doctor Larry

              Pelted? Are you "pelted" by someone else wearing a button that says "God Bless America"? Does the phrase "Merry Christmas" leave a bruise on you? Are you so weak that you think everyone should conform to your belief or non-belief?

              Merry Christmas and God Bless America.

              • 5 votes
              #8.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:26 AM EST
              Brad Melton

              Doctor Larry

              Pelted? Are you "pelted" by someone else wearing a button that says "God Bless America"?

              It was written and stated company policy that no lapel pins were to be worn except those promoting the company. Promotion of anything other is a violation of company policy. Most employees sign on and agree to abide by companyi policy as a condition of their employment. They don't like the rules, let them move on and work elsewhere.

              • 10 votes
              #8.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:43 AM EST
              Breesus319

              Exactly! This is standard company policy for EVERYBODY! If a homosexual were wearing a "Gays are Great!" pin and wouldn't take it off, I imagine the exact same thing would happen. When you agree to work for a company, you agree to their rules. If you can't abide by the rules, find another job.

              • 5 votes
              #8.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:28 AM EST
              Dave in NM

              When you agree to work for a company, you agree to their rules. If you can't abide by the rules, find another job.

              Exactly. Same goes triple for pharmacists who readily cash their paychecks, but refuse to fill prescriptions their church tells them not to. They have absolute freedom ... to go find jobs they will actually perform.

              • 11 votes
              #8.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:35 AM EST
              Janeinthisworld

              I still wish you a Merry Christmas!

              Greg, you really shouldn't use this phrase out of spite. Is that what Jesus would do? Certainly not in the spirit of Christmas.

              Instead how about a little peace on earth and goodwill to (hu)man(s). I think we can all get behind that, and you don't even have to mention religion!

              • 4 votes
              #8.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:46 PM EST
              franklyorange

              Plantsman: I don't want to be pelted with religious expression at work -- that's what places of worship are for.

              To me, foisting one's belief's on other people while on the company dime is unprofessional and inappropriate.

              Let me assure you, I am not a christian fundamentalist. But I have one question: Are you being given christmas day off with pay? And better yet, are you taking it? If the answer is yes, do you see the cognitive dissonance that I am seeing in your statements?

              • 3 votes
              #8.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:31 PM EST
              Janeinthisworld

              Frankly Orange, not all businesses offer Christmas as a paid day off. The company I work for closes on Christmas but does not pay us for the holiday. It seems unfair that a non-Christian person should be forced to take a weekday off without pay for a holiday they don't celebrate. Many would go to work anyway.

              And what other religious holidays other than Christian ones are even given a day off from work? No Jew I know takes 8 days of Channuka off, nor do they get a paid holiday for Rosh Hashanah. I don't think Ramadan is even given serious consideration as a holiday for most Muslims, at least not in the US. It seems if we are going to offer Federally recognized holidays then we should give days off for ALL the religions.

              • 3 votes
              #8.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:51 PM EST
              frostyone

              If you want holidays off for the other religions you cited them by all means do what was done to make Christmas a federal holiday. Contact your state rep and get them to petition for it. If enough people want congress to pass it they will and then the other holidays wil be made into federal holidays just like Christmas was.

              • 1 vote
              #8.9 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:23 PM EST
              Janeinthisworld

              In the interest of fairness, there shouldn't need to be any petition. If holiday status is granted to one religious holiday, it should be granted for all of them. One religious holiday is pretty much the same as another.

              • 3 votes
              #8.10 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:06 PM EST
              frostyone

              while that may be true Christmas wasn't a federal holiday until someone petitioned congress to make it one and got enough support for it to pass. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing the other holidays observed as federal holidays but they'll have to go through the process to make it a reality. If someone does decide to start the petition process they can count on me as a supporter.

              • 3 votes
              #8.11 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:32 PM EST
              Dave in NM

              Personally I wouldn't mind seeing the other holidays observed as federal holidays but they'll have to go through the process to make it a reality.

              Very funny. No one capable of finding their way to this page thinks that that will ever happen. It is glaringly obvious at 50 paces that advocating for the acknowledgment of any non-Christian holiday would be instant and permanent political suicide. Non-Christians (with the possible exception of Jews) have to hide their worldview in the public sphere far more than, say, homosexuals, due to the massive intolerance of a huge portion of the population. Obvious case in point: a shocking number of people acted as though, if President Obama were Muslim, that would be a valid reason to vote against him.

              I take your remark as having been intended in jest, but the joke is too sad to be funny.

              • 3 votes
              #8.12 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:42 PM EST
              frostyone

              nope it is intended in all sincerity and I do believe that a case can be made for inclusion of the other holidays without resulting in political suicide. All it takes is one person and determination

              • 1 vote
              #8.13 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:08 PM EST
              bonos_rama

              "Greg, you really shouldn't use this phrase out of spite. Is that what Jesus would do? Certainly not in the spirit of Christmas."

              Well said. Using Jesus to SPITE people means that Gregorovich is NOT christian. He can call himself one all he wants, but his Jesus wouldn't accept him as one.

              Irony is delicious, isn't it?

                #8.14 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:58 AM EST
                Dave in NM

                nope it is intended in all sincerity and I do believe that a case can be made for inclusion of the other holidays without resulting in political suicide. All it takes is one person and determination

                I am glad that is not true. Fortunately, it does not just take one person to enshrine a religious institution with the imprimatur of the government. It takes a lot of people, and they all have to vote publicly on the matter. While I would enjoy watching from the sidelines as Ramadan was granted federal-holiday status, I think it would be bad precedent, just as it was for the government to confer special status on a Christian holiday. Fortunately, it takes far more than one determined person to put the U.S. government's endorsement on a religious institution.

                • 2 votes
                #8.15 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:31 PM EST
                Reply
                Sharon-287953

                I had a shock when I moved to GA a few years back. I worked for a small company, great people..but.. the weekly morning business meeting was opened with prayer and closed with prayer. many times though out the meeting the members quoted from the bible and related the bible to profit making and working hard. While I really enjoyed working there I was glad to leave. I am not a christen, I am part Lakota and have decided on a spiritual belief. Listening to them relate profits and hard work to God and sin being those who were not working hard enough for the company frankly turned me off to their beliefs. While I really liked t hem, I dreaded the meetings and felt sorry for our Jewish CPA who was left out of everything. They let me in our of interest I think.. lol I just disagree that money is about faith, being honest and working hard, having compassion, and charity is about being a human being.

                • 9 votes
                Reply#9 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:03 AM EST
                Gregorovich

                So would you take away the prayer of the Christians? As long as you weren't required to pray, then...whatever...live and let live. You might have felt left out, but that feeling belongs to you. As long as they didn't treat you any different within the realms of your employment, then I say let the Christians pray.

                • 5 votes
                #9.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:27 AM EST
                KyEngineer

                I commend you for working for that company Sharon. I wouldn't have lasted more than a few weeks. I would have wound up laughing out loud, or saying some other nasty remark.

                I guess Gregorovich, you think it's okay to deliberately create an atmosphere that is divisive to employees that aren't Christians? This type of company should then make it clear that they will only hire Christians so that people who practice differently don't bother applying for employment there so as to ensure no one is left out.

                A workplace is secular, period.

                • 6 votes
                #9.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:38 AM EST
                Gregorovich

                It is only devisive if you are treated poorly. Why not let the Christians pray?

                • 5 votes
                #9.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:42 AM EST
                MKC-TN

                To me, if they advertise that they are a Christian company that will have Christian prayers every morning BEFORE they talk about hiring. Then you know what you are in for. I don't believe a company should have to change to suit someone who is hired after knowing the fact. If it's just a stepping stone, just like having to work with a jerk of a boss... learn to tolerate it without giving up a piece of yourself. I also think it's wrong for a company to expect full participation if they aren't upfront with this practice before hiring.

                I totally agree with you that a good work ethic that includes honesty and being a good character, having integrity, compassion, and charity are part of being the best human being you possibly can be... There are bad characters in every belief system (and atheism is a belief as well)

                • 1 vote
                #9.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:44 AM EST
                Breesus319

                The Christians are more than welcome to pray, but it shouldn't be done in a staff meeting where everybody is forced to attend. Have a prayer meeting before or after the staff meeting, but not during. Being explicitly excluded IS being treated poorly, Greg, but evidently you miss it.

                • 8 votes
                #9.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:29 AM EST
                jeff-813425

                GREG would you let satinists have rituals before and after your meetings? i think not. you cant say it's OK for christians to do it if you dont let every other religion (good or bad) do it also. its all or none. which would you choose?

                • 7 votes
                #9.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:41 AM EST
                Dave in NM

                It is only devisive [sic] if you are treated poorly.

                So you agree that this slimy and indefensible practice was divisive, then. Good. Nice to see you speaking reason for once.

                • 2 votes
                #9.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:40 AM EST
                Richard Schloss

                Greg seems to be another one of those Christians who think that, because they're in the majority, everyone else should have to put up with public displays of Christianity. And as for this "700 Club" mentality that "the Bible wants us to profit," whatever happened to that passage about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven?

                By the way, even though "atheist" is used as an insult in this country, I am proud to call myself "atheist," for it means that I have chosen reason over superstition.

                • 6 votes
                #9.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:04 PM EST
                franklyorange

                Sharon-287953 - christian fundamentalists...gotta love 'em.

                • 1 vote
                #9.9 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:34 PM EST
                Reply
                George-388802

                It's just another step away from being a free country. Who knows whats next people are so full of hate there is no stopping this landslide.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#10 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:05 AM EST
                drp-587087

                The Bible that was wrote so long a go, Told of these days. Man would turn there backs on God.And they are.

                • 1 vote
                #10.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:20 AM EST
                peterb77

                I think it's mostly because after 2,000 years, people are starting to think for themselves and not live by some book that was written "so long a go."

                • 2 votes
                #10.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:25 AM EST
                gordy327

                The Bible that was wrote so long a go,

                And replete with errors, agendas, omissions, and contradictions.

                it's mostly because after 2,000 years, people are starting to think for themselves and not live by some book that was written "so long a go."

                Unfortunately, not enough people are thinking for themselves. They still lie under the blanket of myth and superstition while having some "higher authority" tell them what to think.

                It's just another step away from being a free country

                Care to elaborate?

                • 2 votes
                #10.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:29 AM EST
                Reply
                afloatinasea

                So we should keep religion, sex and politics out of the work place. Great idea. The next women who is showing half her boobs or half her a$$, should be told to dress accordingly. The next cross dresser should be told to dress in the clothing his or her born sex reflects. The next tattoo on a person that describes a sexual act should cover that tattoo. The next openly gay person should be told to stop acting gay. The next employee that is getting involved in politics outside the job should be told to stop because some employees will know of his/her involvement. Anyone wearing a religious medal should be told not to wear it. If any person should mention God at work that person should be reprimanded.

                So folks this is what you would like? I believe Lenin and Stalin would totally agree with you.

                • 4 votes
                Reply#11 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:06 AM EST
                George-388802

                This is were we are heading. It's sad that people can't learn from the past and love one another no matter what they believe. It's sad that instead of evolving we are going backwards.

                • 4 votes
                #11.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:10 AM EST
                baby turtle

                afloatinasea.

                My work place already has these policies in place. You cannot wear revealing clothing, people must wear gender appropriate clothing, there are to be no visible tatoos, but of course you can be openly and flauntingly gay , and flood everyone around with your religious beliefs. Is that what we are striving for?

                • 2 votes
                #11.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:23 AM EST
                afloatinasea

                baby turtle

                The problem is that in striving to make everyone happy we all become unhappy. We have pushed the envelope so far that what was once the norm becomes the abnormal. Tolerance is great until being tolerant makes you the mat for wiping ones shoes. The major problem is that what was once considered private in ones life is now being discussed as a news event.

                • 6 votes
                #11.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:19 AM EST
                baby turtle

                I agree with you.... We have so many diversity groups at my workplace that they have systematically divided everyone up into catagories and created a much more divisive environment. We used to all just be co-workers...now we are all labled by some group.

                Tolerance is a touchy thing

                • 4 votes
                #11.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:28 AM EST
                Reply
                mt-512899

                There is no place for any religion, religious activity (special time off for organized prayers for example) or religious thought (open religious discussions in a public setting within the work place) in a private company that hires people of any religion. If you don't like that, then don't work there.

                Likewise, if the company is a known religious company & hires someone that's not religious, that person had better be able to deal with religious activities at work or look for another job.

                No one is saying there shouldn't be ANY religious activity in ANY work environment.

                But in an establishment that isn't religion based, having religious activity in that establishment is inappropiate and should be banned. A workplace is a place of WORK, not worship.

                For those who can't see that, you need educated.

                • 8 votes
                Reply#12 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:15 AM EST
                Gregorovich

                Atheist says what?

                • 1 vote
                #12.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:24 AM EST
                solidox

                Gregorovich

                Atheist says what?

                Is "atheist" a dirty word to you?

                • 7 votes
                #12.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:43 AM EST
                Gregorovich

                If you believe that you are so important that man is the center of his own universe, as atheists do, then yes...athiests are unclean, and I pray that they see the bigger picture.

                • 4 votes
                #12.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:53 AM EST
                CRaig Coletta

                So your rationale for an idiotic and delusional belief system, Gregorovich is a massive personal inferiority complex that you mistakenly believe all humans should feel because it makes you feel better about your own lack of confidence?

                Congratulations. You have summed up my arguments about why religion developed and why abandoning it is the duty of grown ups.

                Believing in religion after the development of the scientific method, rules of formal logic, and systems of critical analysis is like sleeping with a teddy bear in your 40s.

                • 6 votes
                #12.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:14 AM EST
                Breesus319

                So you can't object to religion in the workplace without being an atheist?

                • 5 votes
                #12.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:17 AM EST
                Longhorn78759

                athiests are unclean, and I pray that they see the bigger picture.

                But, but, I showered this week, I promise!

                So you can't object to religion in the workplace without being an atheist?

                Exactly... You can be religious but not want it shoved in your face 24/7, or a different religion than those practicing at work. Not every issue is black and white people.

                • 3 votes
                #12.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:19 AM EST
                Brad Melton

                Gregorovich

                If you believe that you are so important that man is the center of his own universe, as atheists do, then yes...athiests are unclean, and I pray that they see the bigger picture.

                As opposed to the Bogeyman?

                • 2 votes
                #12.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:25 AM EST
                Monmichka

                LOL, I "need educated"? Are you sure?

                  #12.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:39 AM EST
                  bonos_rama

                  I'm proud to be an atheist, because it means I'm not like you, Gregorovich. Hey, next time you get sick and are dying, don't go to a hospital with all those science-believing doctors. Pray to your god and see if he helps you.

                    #12.9 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:01 AM EST
                    LordFluffy

                    Hey, next time you get sick and are dying, don't go to a hospital with all those science-believing doctors. Pray to your god and see if he helps you.

                    See, this is the attitude of Atheism that I don't understand. I know a number of people who are Christian and/or religious in another faith and have no issue with science. You don't have to believe that medicine doesn't work to believe in a god.

                    I believe in a god but I understand soft atheism. Hard atheism is unprovable (you can't prove a negative) but I don't tell people they're dumb for believing it, I just ask why they do over other metaphysical positions.

                    When people put the argument in terms of you must be an ignorant theist or a wise and enlightened atheist, of course it's going to be an argument. The failure of both sides of the issue is the failure of trying to see the world through the other's eyes. It's the failure of thinking to back your own point, you've got to put someone else down.

                    Why is no one getting that?

                    • 2 votes
                    #12.10 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:09 AM EST
                    Reply
                    TOR-744926

                    The guy at Home Depot wore a button that had a quote from the Pledge of Allegiance for Goodness Sake! Blame the writer of the Pledge of Allegiance for penning the words, "One Nation Under God, Indivisible!"

                    • 4 votes
                    Reply#13 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:17 AM EST
                    RaisedByWolves

                    It's the "under God" portion that is a problem for many of us. I remember going home from 1st grade with a Pledge of Allegiance that said "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" and coming back to 2nd grade with the intrusion of "under God", thanks to Senatory McCarthy and his kooks. It caused a Jewish/Catholic girl to start thinking: Which God? Many years of study, I decided that my "god" was actually the goddess, who gets short shrift now. But would I bring that up at work? Never. My own business.

                    • 13 votes
                    #13.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:27 AM EST
                    Vlad in TN

                    "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," April 5, 2004].

                    • 11 votes
                    #13.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:30 AM EST
                    CRaig Coletta

                    Well put Vlad. Let's add that it was a purely political move intended to further distinguish the US from the 'godless commies." Remember folks, religious intrusion into the political sphere ain't new.

                    • 9 votes
                    #13.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:44 AM EST
                    Monmichka

                    Well, I grew up in the '80s where the "under God" phrase was said, along with the Texas pledge and then My Country, tis of Thee every single morning. And then all of a sudden, we stopped. When we asked our teacher what was going on, she said that some groups didn't agree with the "under God" part since they didn't believe in God. So I asked her if we couldn't take that part out of the pledge and those of us that do believe in God say it to ourselves and those who don't won't have to. I didn't care about that part, I just missed saying the pledge and thought it was silly to stop it altogether.

                    • 1 vote
                    #13.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:48 AM EST
                    Smc31569

                    The author of the Pledge NEVER mentioned 'god' and the pledge was written as a SALES SLOGAN for selling flags to public schools. It was HIJACKED and PERVERTED by the Christian REICH later on unbeknownst to the author who had been dead half a century by then. McCarthyism and communist paranoia can be attributed to this abomination.

                    Get your facts straight before you speak of that of which you know nothing about..

                    • 11 votes
                    #13.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:19 AM EST
                    TVtooner

                    The writer of the Pledge of Allegiance was Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister whose original words NEVER said anything about God or the United States. Those references were later added by fear-laced politicians meddling where they don't belong.

                    The original words are: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands - one nation indivisible - with liberty and justice for all". (Francis Bellamy, 1892)

                    One nation INDIVISIBLE...put this phrase in context, coming only 27 years after the Civil War. Preservation of the Union had been maintained and worth emphasizing (at least at the time.)

                    I know of what I write.
                    North Carolina Representative to the National Bellamy Award Ceremonies, October 1970, at Lead, South Dakota.

                    • 6 votes
                    #13.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:30 AM EST
                    TOR-744926

                    "God bless America, Land that I love, stand beside her and guide her..."

                    On the money of the US: "In God We Trust"

                    Now, if you want to get down to exactly which god is being referred to, that's a different matter entirely!

                    • 1 vote
                    #13.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:59 PM EST
                    Janeinthisworld

                    Now, if you want to get down to exactly which god is being referred to, that's a different matter entirely!

                    And therein lies the problem and the controversy. Which is why it shouldn't be in there to begin with.

                    • 3 votes
                    #13.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:59 PM EST
                    bonos_rama

                    Can you imagine taking someone else's work and changing it, to add anything, let alone "one nation under god"? The nerve.

                    Would people like it if non-christians just started rewriting the bible?

                    • 4 votes
                    #13.9 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:07 AM EST
                    Smc31569

                    " Would people like it if non-christians just started rewriting the bible? "

                    Ooooh... I LIKE that idea ! First we could start be renaming it 'GRIM FAIRYTALES'. Actually that's not even a stretch, I mean, after all it IS a work of pure fiction. If we had to rewrite it and omit all of the myths, folktales, allegories and metaphors we might be left with ONE PARAGRAPH of a possible half-truth somewhere in there.

                    • 4 votes
                    #13.10 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:30 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Gregorovich

                    This is all because companies are afraid of ticking off the atheists that try and take away self expression. The deplorable acts of atheists have in mind to curb our freedom of speech and expression and change this world into a dark and dismal place where people only worship the government who holds themselves like a false God over everyone. They worship the environment, only to the extent that the masses must (they (the atheists themselves) do not have to take responsibility for their actions).

                    I have been asked not to say Merry Christmas over the phone in case someone from John Deere is on the other end. These atheists have apparently gotten to John Deere. If they can get to them, they can get to anyone. Even all of you!!!!

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#14 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:23 AM EST
                    solidox

                    That's pretty hilarious. I guess I missed the "Infiltrate John Deere" memo.

                    • 11 votes
                    #14.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:44 AM EST
                    Gregorovich

                    Well I got it....loud and clear.

                    • 1 vote
                    #14.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:53 AM EST
                    ragtop-618739

                    Greg-I am a born-again Christian. But when I talk with someone on teh phone, or in person, or elsewhere, I say happy holidays or merry christmas or whatever is approrpiate, out of RESPECT for the other person. I don't try to make every conversation I have an invitation to convert the other person to the brand of religion I follow. When a young lady on my staff went on a mission trip to Africa, I called her to my office and closed the door and prayed with her for her safety and success on teh mission field. I didn't call all the staff in and say now we'll all pray together for XXX. Unfortunately, most Christians have a lot to learn about how to evangelize teh world--you don't do it with a club and a book, you do it with love and respect and caring.

                    • 16 votes
                    #14.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:05 AM EST
                    Brad Melton

                    Gregorovich

                    This is all because companies are afraid of ticking off the atheists that try and take away self expression

                    Religious extremists have been doing it for hundreds of years.

                    • 9 votes
                    #14.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:26 AM EST
                    Monmichka

                    AAAAAHHH!!! Hand me my rifle, son! I gotta ride through town and warn the kinfolk! The atheists are coming! The atheists are coming!

                    • 7 votes
                    #14.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:51 AM EST
                    hometowngirl-510510

                    gregorovich you are crazy, its not atheists that care about 'merry christmas', i am not a christian or god believer but i love saying merry christmas and i dont mind who says it to me - its the other religions that get offended by it not atheists, we cant say at my work because we might offend the muslims and the jews.

                    • 3 votes
                    #14.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:01 AM EST
                    Smc31569

                    LOL...I've never read anything so ASININE in my life. Wow Greg...you are a prime candidate for the looney bin. What you fail to realize is that you people don't just "express" yourselves ...you deliberately and consciously SHOVE your crap in everyone's faces and down everyone's throats.

                    This is NOT a christian country, it's a SECULAR one which is comprised of people who practice THOUSANDS of different beliefs or NO belief at all and YOU have no "special" rights to inject your dogma into a secular society when the rest of us find it OFFENSIVE to what we believe or do not believe.

                    Years ago people were tolerant because the majority of people kept their religious beliefs to themselves... at HOME and in CHURCH, where it belongs. NOT in the workplace. I can't EVER recall someone pushing this crap in my face until the last 20 yrs with this asinine Evangelical movement ( a scourge on society run by a mass group of intolerant bigots and hypocrites who feel it's their DUTY to harrass non-christians ).

                    I have nothing against ANY other religious group. I don't see Hindus, Jews, Wiccans, Bahai's, New Agers, Universalists or even Muslims out demanding everyone cowtow to their faiths/beliefs or asking for special priviledges or demanding say in secular, public matters.

                    Christians bring the hate on themselves and deservedly so. So YES it pisses me off to see blatant and flagrant expressions of YOUR religion in the public place. It is OFFENSIVE.

                    Oh and Greg....have your physician up those meds you should be taking to deal with your psychosis.

                    • 13 votes
                    #14.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:34 AM EST
                    myopinion-13

                    Do you even realize that not everyone who isn't Christian is an atheist? Your posts indicate otherwise. When you insist that the only reason people dislike Christianity being foisted upon them is because they are atheists, you show your ignorance and intolerance. Yes, atheists don't like Christianity being pushed upon them ... neither do Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, and frankly, most Christians I know don't think their religion belongs in the public sphere as well, because they understand that their way is not the only way, that there are many paths to living a moral, contributing life.

                    • 3 votes
                    #14.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:27 PM EST
                    RaisedByWolves

                    Hometowngirl: Every Jew I know says Merry Christmas right back when I say it to them. I think you are absolutely wrong on this one. The followers of Islam as well. You just need to live in a city that is very diverse, then you get to celebrate every holiday that comes around. Much more fun that way! And, Happy Solstice!

                    • 2 votes
                    #14.9 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:53 PM EST
                    TOR-744926

                    That's because Dec 25th is not actually birthday of Christ as described in Bible. All the symbols associated with Dec 25th are pagan symbols. Old Nick, nickname for the devil; first recorded in 17th century, of German and Scandinavian origins. The Nimrod tree named after Nimrod, known in Egypt as Osiris. The tree was used by the Druids as a symbol of fertility (Evergreen). Nimrod married his mother, Semiramis, and was founder of first world empire at Babel, later known as Babylon.

                    After Nimrod's death (c. 2167 BC), Semiramis promoted the belief that he was a god. She claimed that she saw a full-grown evergreen tree spring out of the roots of a dead tree stump, symbolizing the springing forth of new life for Nimrod. On the anniversary of his birth, she said, Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts under it. His birthday fell on the winter solstice at the end of December.

                    • 3 votes
                    #14.10 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:48 PM EST
                    CJ-1139386

                    Organized religion will eventually destroy mankind.

                    • 4 votes
                    #14.11 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:12 PM EST
                    Mr G

                    Gregorovich - I'm atheist. I came to that conclusion after decades of education and contemplation.

                    Your comments in post #14 reveal your misunderstanding of what atheism is and the basis of the policies at your workplace. Of course you have the right to your religious beliefs but I urge you to educate yourself on things outside your realm before commenting on them. I suggest this because knowledge is power. Good luck to you and I sincerely hope you have a wonderful Christmas.

                      #14.12 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:05 PM EST
                      Reply
                      CloudyOneDeleted
                      Kareem in my Coffee

                      Christian Music???? I personally would rather listen to fingernails on a blackboard.

                      Keep it in the church and we'll all get along.

                      • 11 votes
                      #16 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:31 AM EST
                      Gregorovich

                      We are one in the Spirit we are one in the Lord. We are one in the Spirit we are one in the Lord. And we pray that our unity may one day be restored. And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love, yes they'll know we are Christians by our love.

                      • 2 votes
                      #16.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:44 AM EST
                      Kareem in my Coffee

                      lol

                      • 7 votes
                      #16.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:46 AM EST
                      solidox

                      *puke*

                      • 6 votes
                      #16.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:46 AM EST
                      Devil's Son

                      If I have to listen to your Christian music don't be offended when I listen to Ozzy, Black Sabbath, etc at work.

                      • 9 votes
                      #16.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:59 AM EST
                      Arizona Resident

                      why don't you go and drown your comments into your "coffee".....

                      • 2 votes
                      #16.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:24 AM EST
                      Brad Melton

                      Gregorovich

                      We are one in the Spirit we are one in the Lord. We are one in the Spirit we are one in the Lord. And we pray that our unity may one day be restored. And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love, yes they'll know we are Christians by our love.

                      If it's love they express toward those with whom they disagree, they can keep it, can it and practice it outside the work place.

                      • 4 votes
                      #16.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:26 AM EST
                      Richard-1515565

                      If I have to listen to your Christian music don't be offended when I listen to Ozzy, Black Sabbath, etc at work.

                      Mix it up! with that there should be no compaints. However it the subject is brought up in dispute, turn all music off.

                      • 2 votes
                      #16.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:27 AM EST
                      DontTrustCorporateMedia

                      most non-religious people celebrate Christmas in their own secular way, with presents and watching Rudolph the Red Nosed Raindeer. Not all xmas songs are religious.

                      • 1 vote
                      #16.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:31 AM EST
                      jeff-813425

                      GREG in this forum you are not known for your love actually you have no love but hate. reread what you spout and tell me where is your love? all i see is your self rightous arragance.

                      you think we should all put up with your prayers but you condem those who do not pray.

                      • 7 votes
                      #16.9 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:49 AM EST
                      Monmichka

                      Why do I have to keep it in church? Can I keep it in my headphones?

                      • 2 votes
                      #16.10 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:53 AM EST
                      hometowngirl-510510

                      yep you can keep it in your headphones as long as i cant hear it, and i'll keep my rock music in my headphones so you cant hear it, all fair.

                      • 5 votes
                      #16.11 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:03 AM EST
                      gordy327

                      We are one in the Spirit we are one in the Lord. We are one in the Spirit we are one in the Lord.

                      That is just your personal belief. But that doesn't make it true or even applicable to anyone else. I think we are all one in spirit with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who blesses us with his noodly appendage. Is your "belief" any more relevant or true than mine?

                      And we pray that our unity may one day be restored.

                      I'd say religion is the cause of our divisiveness.

                      by our love, yes they'll know we are Christians by our love.

                      Are these the same Christians who look down at me like a second class citizen for being an atheist? Or the chrisitans who think i'm "unclean" for my lack of beliefs? Maybe it's the one who condemn me or others to Hell for not believing like they do?

                      why don't you go and drown your comments into your "coffee".....

                      More of that christian 'love?'

                      Why do I have to keep it in church? Can I keep it in my headphones?

                      Well, belief in God is all in people's heads anyway.

                      • 6 votes
                      #16.12 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:39 AM EST
                      Kareem in my Coffee

                      WOW.....Arizona Resident isn't too pleased with free speech either unless it is her/she who is speaking.

                      • 1 vote
                      #16.13 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:02 PM EST
                      Chuck Wavy Dean

                      Gordy;

                      Loved your replys! Right on target.

                      I have a very hard time respecting the followers of christianity, which is rooted in nothing more than folklore and fantasy.

                      Christians are also the biggest hypocrits on earth. The preach love and understanding except that they hate gays and everyone else who doesn't believe like they do will go to this nasty place (that doesn't exist except in the imagination of christians) called hell.

                      I have been Agnostic for many years and am proud of it. Christianity is nothing more than a fairy tale, on par with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

                      • 5 votes
                      #16.14 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:14 PM EST
                      gordy327

                      Loved your replys! Right on target.

                      Thank you. :)

                      Christianity is nothing more than a fairy tale, on par with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

                      Religion in general is based on fairy tales. But I like the Santa fairy tale. :)

                      • 5 votes
                      #16.15 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:39 PM EST
                      Enma3

                      I had a co-worker who complained about my playing non-Christian and non-Country music at work. At the time, I was playing Charlotte Church singing "Pie Jesu" and "Panus Angelicus." She was too stupid to know they were religious songs. She just assumed because I was not a religious person.....

                      • 6 votes
                      #16.16 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:24 PM EST
                      Janeinthisworld

                      So, purposely showing disrespect to people who do not hold the same religious views as you is love? That's what I'm getting from your posts, greg. Looks like that's what a lot of us are getting from your posts. Do us a favor, don't share the love, 'kay?

                      • 2 votes
                      #16.17 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:03 PM EST
                      Fred Evil

                      Don't worry folks. One of these days, Greg will realize he is his own worst enemy. Spreading the hatred and distrust of anything not purely Xtian, at least in his own perverted view of it.

                      Greg is a prime example of why Xtianity is becoming marginalized, and doing so at the hands of its own followers. When you are incapable of respecting others, no one will respect you.

                      • 1 vote
                      #16.18 - Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:23 PM EST
                      Reply
                      Erica-1523558

                      It just makes me sad that people can be openly anything else but religious. The people in my work place have told me that they respect me and my faith and the fact that i don't flaunt it around. But sexual jokes, orientation, drugs and alcohol are talked about frequently and at times very offensively to me. It just doesn't seem fair. I only engage in faith conversations when i'm asked. But people know what i believe and I'm not forcing it down everyone's throat. I do think there is a level of professionalism that must be adhered to but why should i have to hear about someones hangover or drug overdose or sexual acts in detail. And to those here who thinks faith is the problem in the world, I feel bad for you because obviously your deceived to think that the evil in the world come from faiths that for the most part promote peace and offer better lives to those who choose (not are made) to follow them.

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#17 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:36 AM EST
                      solidox

                      You can be as religious as you like. You cannot however be openly deliberately annoying.

                      • 7 votes
                      #17.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:42 AM EST
                      Longhorn78759

                      evil in the world come from faiths that for the most part promote peace and offer better lives to those who choose (not are made) to follow them.

                      They promote peace if you believe exactly the same as them. Otherwise not so much.

                      • 2 votes
                      #17.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:23 AM EST
                      Richard-1515565

                      They are the same liberal bigots that teach the same hate they accuse people of the christian faith of.

                      They refuse to admit that all christians are not bible thumpers, they choose to lump them all together.

                      • 3 votes
                      #17.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:33 AM EST
                      verno

                      Richard, just like you like to lump all liberals together. Do you see the trend here??

                      • 6 votes
                      #17.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:03 AM EST
                      Richard-1515565

                      It is a bit of a vicious cycle.

                        #17.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:30 AM EST
                        Reply
                        solidox

                        Is it really so bad to insist people keep their religion in their places of worship and homes?

                        "But religion is such a major part of my life! I must be allowed to express that fact at work!" Who cares? Sex might be a big part of your life too but it's not as if you can express that either.

                        Just keep your private life PRIVATE and do your damned job.

                        • 14 votes
                        Reply#18 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:39 AM EST
                        Gregorovich

                        I still wish you a Merry Christmas!

                        • 2 votes
                        #18.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:46 AM EST
                        solidox

                        Gregorovich

                        I still wish you a Merry Christmas!

                        No, you don't.

                        • 6 votes
                        #18.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:47 AM EST
                        Gregorovich

                        I just did and I still do.

                        • 1 vote
                        #18.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:54 AM EST
                        baby turtle

                        gregorovich.....just because you keep typing it doesn't make it true

                        • 9 votes
                        #18.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:04 AM EST
                        Breesus319

                        Not to mention the sentiment is COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS to a non-Christian. Since you are obviously Christian, then a Merry Christmas to you! But please stop generally wishing people a Merry Christmas. It doesn't help your argument or make your point, it's just annoying!

                        • 8 votes
                        #18.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:21 AM EST
                        Brad Melton

                        Gregorovich

                        I still wish you a Merry Christmas!

                        You wish others were forced to believe just like you. It's part and parcel with religious extremist dogma.

                        • 6 votes
                        #18.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:27 AM EST
                        Richard-1515565

                        Now that's a solid response.

                        • 3 votes
                        #18.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:35 AM EST
                        solidox

                        Gregorovich

                        I just did and I still do.

                        No, you didn't. You're just trying to be annoying. You're a faux-christian at best and a failtroll at worst.

                        • 9 votes
                        #18.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:50 AM EST
                        Gregorovich

                        Ox, you may choose to believe whatever you want, we are given free will and you may exercise it. However, I still wish you a Merry Christmas. I hope your Christmas day is filled with love and wonder. I hope you feel Gods love, even if you don't believe in it. You can call me names (I had to look up failtroll) but that doesn't change my wish for you to have a merry Christmas.

                        • 2 votes
                        #18.9 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:33 AM EST
                        Janeinthisworld

                        Problem is Greg, no one thinks you are being sincere. You're being provocative and spiteful. You say you're not, but your responses just show otherwise.

                        • 2 votes
                        #18.10 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:58 PM EST
                        David Jewell

                        Why would you wish a thing for someone that they do not wish for themselves? Is that your version of 'kind'? Is that your version of 'giving'? Is that really your version of the Christmas spirit?

                        No means no! Stop.

                        • 2 votes
                        #18.11 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:23 PM EST
                        Reply
                        Frank Bus

                        WHEN U want to PLEASE GOD, do U want to give up this DIVINE right and miss ETERNITY?. Missing and earthly opportunity is one thing, missing God's destiny for your heaven bound life, is quite another....all the sides of this vital issue, have not been heard from yet....

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#19 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:55 AM EST
                        Longhorn78759

                        yawn

                        • 8 votes
                        #19.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:24 AM EST
                        Smc31569

                        A straightjacket and a butterfly net for this one.

                        • 3 votes
                        #19.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:44 AM EST
                        JPJohnson

                        Yea....

                        Spending eternity with Christians like yourself. I'll pass. That doesn't sound like heaven to me.

                        • 5 votes
                        #19.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:52 PM EST
                        andilltellyaanotherthing

                        That was awesome Frank. It took a few seconds to compose myself after reading your post but here goes...

                        Please reply as often as you can with your beautiful quotes so that everyone can be enlightened by them.

                        Speak often, Frank so that everyone can see the intelligence of the believers.

                        YOU are the spokesman for Jesus here and he loves your comments too. :)

                          #19.4 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:08 PM EST
                          David Jewell

                          (Why do I hear the Twilight Zone music suddenly?)

                            #19.5 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:25 PM EST
                            gordy327

                            Why do I hear the Twilight Zone music suddenly?)

                            I'm hearing the Joker laugh!

                              #19.6 - Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:47 AM EST
                              Fred Evil

                              "all the sides of this vital issue, have not been heard from yet...."

                              At least THIS part of your statement is true.We've heard from Xtians for the last 1300 years, while the atheists and agnostics have been suppressed, vilified and murdered by Xtian hands.

                              You're right, not all sides have been heard from yet. And here come the voices of the oppressed!!

                                #19.7 - Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:54 PM EST
                                Reply
                                Redburn

                                As child who grew up in a family that did not celebrate Chistmas the most difficult time I had in the first grade was when the teacher required everyone to stand up and talk about the gifts they recieved for Christmas. I was the only non-christian in the class. Religion should play no part in school or work.

                                • 15 votes
                                Reply#20 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:57 AM EST
                                Devil's Son

                                Amen!! and Hallelujah!!

                                • 4 votes
                                #20.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:01 AM EST
                                Doctor Larry

                                How hard is it to remember and understand that Christmas is a religious holiday? Don't want to celebrate it? Go to work. Just don't try to take away my right to celebrate the birth of Jesus.

                                • 4 votes
                                #20.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:18 AM EST
                                Breesus319

                                Larry, who exactly is trying to take away your right to celebrate Christmas? Or am I mis-reading your post?

                                • 5 votes
                                #20.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:22 AM EST
                                Redburn

                                As a child I was humiliated at school because I did not celebrate your Chistian holiday - celebrate all you want at home and at your church but keep it out of our schools and businesses. I am now proud to call myself a non-christian. Tell me how our crass commercialisation of the birth of Christ celebates his life.

                                • 8 votes
                                #20.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:25 AM EST
                                Brad Melton

                                Doctor Larry

                                How hard is it to remember and understand that Christmas is a religious holiday? Don't want to celebrate it? Go to work. Just don't try to take away my right to celebrate the birth of Jesus.

                                Celebrate it to your heart's desire. I do; but I don't try and insist everyone else does. By the way folks

                                Happy Passover

                                Blessed Kwanza

                                Namaste!

                                Blessed Be!

                                Happy Solstice, and last but not least:

                                Merry Christmas!

                                • 8 votes
                                #20.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:38 AM EST
                                Richard-1515565

                                Tell me how our crass commercialisation of the birth of Christ celebates his life.

                                Good Point!

                                • 5 votes
                                #20.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:39 AM EST
                                Brad Melton

                                Richard-1515565

                                Tell me how our crass commercialisation of the birth of Christ celebates his life.

                                Good Point!

                                Churches have made plenty of money off of it through the centuries. They build buildings and charge admission for spirituality. That's called big business.

                                • 5 votes
                                #20.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:40 AM EST
                                Doctor Larry

                                Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

                                Plenty try to push the first part of Amendment I and ignore the second. Both parts are important.

                                And it is not a Christian movement that commercializes Christmas - far from it.

                                • 2 votes
                                #20.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:42 AM EST
                                Redburn

                                "And it is not a Christian movement that commercializes Christmas - far from it."

                                But any who object to it are quickly accused of being anti-chistian by the Christians.

                                For example Rush Limbaugh's supposed "war on Chistmas"

                                • 2 votes
                                #20.9 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:05 AM EST
                                Smc31569

                                Exactly...it's a RELIGIOUS holiday and should be celebrated AT HOME or IN CHURCH....NOT in a SECULAR society. I should not have to listen to religious music on the mainstream radio or see religious icons and symbolotry splattered all over EVERYTHING... stores, schools, public transit or public ANYTHING for that matter. That is unless you are going to allow all Muslims to play Muslim music and Celebrate and decorate all over for Ramadan, let the Jews do the same for Hannukah, let the pagans do the same for Winter Solstice, let the African-Americans do the same for Kwansaa and so on and so forth.

                                ALL OR NOTHING. I am SICK TO DEATH of being bombarded by Christian dogma and symbolism in PUBLIC PLACES when I clearly do not believe or celebrate such and neither do MILLIONS and MILLIONS of others. Being as he christians HIJACKED the original winter festival of Saturnalia ( the Winter Solstice ) and the month of December is special for celebration by many other religions and non religious it should be a secular, non-denominational holiday to be enjoyed and celebrated by EVERYONE either without any religious dogma attached ... ie Winter Holidays or give EVERYONE equal opportunity and exposure.

                                • 3 votes
                                #20.10 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:52 AM EST
                                KyEngineer

                                Just don't try to take away my right to celebrate the birth of Jesus.

                                Hey Doctor Larry, you need to do some more homework on your religion. Jesus was not actually born on Dec. 25th. His birthdate is actually unknown. However, the interesting bit is, Dec 25th closes resembles the time of year that pagans would celebrate the winter solstice or Midwinter. Christianity simply absorbed this celebration and dubbed it "Christ's Mass" so they would win over the pagans and make it easier to convert them. This happens throughout all religions over the centuries. They absorb various traditions to more easily incorporate new converts/cultures - it helped keep the peace with local populations if they still got to have their traditional celebrations.

                                I really wish more Christians (and other religions as well) would research more into the history of their religion instead of taking everything they are taught today at face value. Religion and history have been rewritten to suit political agendas since recordable history began (the winners write history folks, not the losers).

                                • 4 votes
                                #20.11 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:15 PM EST
                                RaisedByWolves

                                And, don't forget Saturnalia, the Roman winter event that lasted a number of days agreed upon in order to correct the calendar. Parties, gift giving, wishing people joy... Hmmm, heard that somewhere before. Face it, Christians took over where the Romans left off: a people who celebrated a certain god or goddess were given the same celebration with a name change to reflect Jupiter or Juno or whomever. And that is how Christians learned their first tricks on inculcation. So, why go with the new model? Why not just hearken back to the originals, it's still a party.

                                • 3 votes
                                #20.12 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:18 PM EST
                                lk in la

                                President Ulysees Grant declared Christmas to be a federal holiday by the late 1800s. It is the only federal holiday in America that is a religious holiday, but that means that no one should worry about it being taken away.

                                • 1 vote
                                #20.13 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:35 PM EST
                                Reply
                                Prismofillusion

                                I've never commented here, but this feels necessary.

                                This isn't a black or white situation. It's not either (environment completely sterile of religion) or (crosses hung up at each employee's desk that play bible sound clips). There's a happy medium. If a worker wants to wear a cross or a shirt with something about God on it, feel free. The line should be drawn at "what another employee can sense at his/her own desk." If an employee (one who doesn't care for religion, for example) can see or hear anything religious while at his/her own desk, then there's an issue. Otherwise, all bets are off. And it should be obvious that trying to push your religion on a fellow coworker is off-limits.

                                • 4 votes
                                Reply#21 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:57 AM EST
                                Gregorovich

                                If an environmentalist can hang a sign at his desk that says "please recycle" or some liberal can put up a sign that says "smoking kills" or someone who is gay can decorate their cubicle with rainbows (something I support by the way) then why can't I hang a cross at my desk.

                                • 2 votes
                                #21.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:02 AM EST
                                Prismofillusion

                                ...I said you should be able to. Just keep it to your desk/clothing. This is coming from a non-believer.

                                • 1 vote
                                #21.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:05 AM EST
                                Longhorn78759

                                If an environmentalist can hang a sign at his desk that says "please recycle"

                                That's an ridiculously bad comparison.

                                • 7 votes
                                #21.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:25 AM EST
                                Brad Melton

                                Gregorovich

                                If an environmentalist can hang a sign at his desk that says "please recycle" or some liberal can put up a sign that says "smoking kills" or someone who is gay can decorate their cubicle with rainbows (something I support by the way) then why can't I hang a cross at my desk.

                                Hang it anywhere you want; just don't expect the rest of us to hang it or listen to the intolerant sermon that usually accompanies its being hung.

                                • 1 vote
                                #21.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:29 AM EST
                                Smc31569

                                "Smoking Kills" and "Please Recycle" are examples of things that benefit the community and the environment and makes things better for EVERYONE, regardless of race, creed, nationality, belief, etc. It works towards the common good.

                                Religion does exactly the opposite, always has, always will.

                                • 6 votes
                                #21.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:58 AM EST
                                Chuck Wavy Dean

                                Gregorvich;

                                I absolutely cannot believe how ridiculous and inane your posts are. Comparing something that is a health issue like smoking (which, BTW is againist the law in almost all workplaces and other indoor facilities) and recycling to overt expressions of religion?

                                And you expect people to take you seriously?

                                Basically, you have shown yourself to be a joke and actually a pretty funny one at that.

                                • 5 votes
                                #21.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:33 PM EST
                                Gregorovich

                                Really Chuck it's obvious you don't attend church because you don't recognise preaching when you see it (the signs). (All tongue and cheek of course)

                                • 1 vote
                                #21.7 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:58 AM EST
                                David Jewell

                                If that's preaching I clearly am not missing a thing on Sunday mornings at home!

                                  #21.8 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:28 PM EST
                                  Reply
                                  Gary-1386253

                                  Religion/no religion = one more excuse to tell me what to think, say and do or don't. Its all about who is the biggest bully in the neighborhood. Some atheists are the biggest bullies, so religion is not tolerated. In other areas, religionists are the biggest bullies, and god is shoved down everyone's throat. I intensely hate bullies, no matter which side of the issue is being used. The bullies on both sides are wrong, not because of belief, but because of their attempts to control ME!

                                  • 13 votes
                                  Reply#22 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:01 AM EST
                                  Matt Stieber

                                  Congratulations Gary. Probably the most intelligent post on this page!

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #22.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:06 AM EST
                                  AK-370432

                                  The key is tolerance -- the ability to respect the beliefs of others even when they are not our own.

                                  If only we were all capable of contentedly practicing our own faith (or lack thereof) without pushing our own stance upon others. How very different the world would be.

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #22.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:51 AM EST
                                  Reply
                                  Doctor Larry

                                  The laws aren’t always clearly defined, but wearing your religion on your sleeve in a largely secular American workplace could hinder your career.

                                  It's not the workplace that is secular, it's the ACLU and federal government weenies that are. We are not only protected against a state religion, we are protected against the state preventing our exercise of religion.

                                  • 3 votes
                                  Reply#23 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:10 AM EST
                                  gordy327

                                  We are not only protected against a state religion, we are protected against the state preventing our exercise of religion.

                                  But a private employer has the authority to prohibit your religious "expression."

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #23.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:44 AM EST
                                  Reply
                                  Joan-437914

                                  The result of pushing religion at work will eventually come to the point where that "obvious" person is not hired. Better to avoid the issue altogether rather than deal with potential lawsuits later. So if you do wear a religious head scarf to an interview, you might not get hired because the company doesn't want to hassle with potential religious issues and possible later lawsuits. Worship at home. Work at work.

                                    Reply#24 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:15 AM EST
                                    Doctor Larry

                                    Wearing a button that says "God Bless America" or a sweater that says "Merry Christmas" should not invoke a lawsuit - but the ACLU and others don't want freedom OF religion, they want freedom FROM religion.

                                    Avoiding the issue is how Hitler took over much of Europe.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #24.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:21 AM EST
                                    Pat-#@!&!#@

                                    Worship at home. Work at work.

                                    exactly!

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #24.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:26 AM EST
                                    DontTrustCorporateMedia

                                    Doctor Larry - the ACLU defends all freedoms, including the freedom of expression. They also defend freedom of and from religion. The ACLU is concerned with harrassment and recruiting people on the job to certain faiths, religions, political organizations, etc.

                                    avoiding religious issues had nothing to do with how Hitler was able to take over Europe. He was a sick mad man intent on taking over the world, period.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #24.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:26 AM EST
                                    Arizona Resident

                                    But if during my lunch time (MY time), I should have the right to pray, or read my Bible.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #24.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:45 AM EST
                                    Doctor Larry

                                    Right. The ACLU has no bias. Right.

                                    And I did NOT say "avoiding religious issues" with respect to Hitler. I said the more generic "Avoiding the issue". Much or Europe ignored the 800-lb gorilla and avoided the issues it posed until it was too late. I suppose I should have been more clear.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #24.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:46 AM EST
                                    RAC 0129

                                    The ACLU has no bias

                                    Actually it does. It is called a bias of defending the civil liberties of ALL Americans - lefties, righties, moderates, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists, Communists .... The list is quite extensive. Ask Rush Limpballs ....

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #24.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:18 PM EST
                                    mtpromises

                                    But if during my lunch time (MY time), I should have the right to pray, or read my Bible.

                                    just curious, but, Arizona resident, who packs your lunch? (wondering why the need to pray during lunch time)

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #24.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:17 PM EST
                                    Tired of the Same-671697

                                    All Larry has to do as look at the cases the ACLU has defended to know his view of them is invalid.

                                    But it's much easier to generalize them, based largely on the ramblings of right-wing talking heads, than to actually take the time and examine their public record.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #24.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:42 PM EST
                                    Fred Evil

                                    "Arizona Resident

                                    But if during my lunch time (MY time), I should have the right to pray, or read my Bible."

                                    And during YOUR lunch hour, where don't you have that right? That hour is yours, to do as you please. You can go to the bathroom and masturbate, or you can pray. Kind of the same thing really....

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #24.9 - Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:02 PM EST
                                    Reply
                                    DontTrustCorporateMedia

                                    people get away with religious harrassment in small business all the time. I used to work at a small engineering company where my boss told a couple people they would be better workers if they devoted their lives to Jesus.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    Reply#25 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:23 AM EST
                                    AJC-383569

                                    Personally I think that employee being fired for wearing a button "In God We Trust, One Nation under God" is a disgrace. It's funny, that's on our money and coins. Shall we ban them from being used at Home Depot, etc?

                                    This nation better wise up and remember that Our Forefathers based the Declaration of Independence "All Men are created equal, and bestowed certain Unalienable Rights", Our Constitution and Bill of Rights based upon their convictions and belief in God.

                                    If we keep turining our backs on God, he may turn his back on us. America's Blessings and Freedom are more dependent on God's Covering, than any military weapons we possess.

                                    Let's remember it's "Christmas", and not just Happy Holidays.

                                    May "God Bless America", and shame on you Home Depot.

                                    • 4 votes
                                    Reply#26 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:27 AM EST
                                    Brad Melton

                                    AJC-383569

                                    Personally I think that employee being fired for wearing a button "In God We Trust, One Nation under God" is a disgrace.

                                    Company policy. It was well delineated and in writing. If he didn't like the policy, he shouldn't have hired on. Hiring on and then complaining is a lost cause, foolish and shows where his loyalties are.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #26.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:30 AM EST
                                    gordy327

                                    I think that employee being fired for wearing a button "In God We Trust, One Nation under God" is a disgrace.

                                    He violated company policy in addition to refusing an offered acceptable pin or ignoring a given warning. So the fault of his termination is effectively his.

                                    It's funny, that's on our money and coins.

                                    Yes, it is. Especially since it's unconstitutional!

                                    This nation better wise up and remember that Our Forefathers based the Declaration of Independence "All Men are created equal, and bestowed certain Unalienable Rights"

                                    The Declaration of Independence does not establish the laws of the land or our system of government. Besides, the Founding Fathers certainly did not want religious ideology pushed on the general citizenry.

                                    , Our Constitution and Bill of Rights based upon their convictions and belief in God.

                                    Oh really? Can you point out which parts of the Constitution or the Bill of rights is based on God (or even the bible)? There is no mention of God in the constitution. That's a rather large oversight by the Founding Fathers if they intended to base the constitution on their beliefs in God, don't you think? The Constitution is a secular document based more on English common law than on God or the bible. Prove otherwise!

                                    If we keep turining our backs on God, he may turn his back on us.

                                    So? Since God doesn't exist, that's a moot point anyway.

                                    America's Blessings and Freedom are more dependent on God's Covering, than any military weapons we possess

                                    I don't think God built America from the ground up just for us. It has more to do with the hard work and perseverence of the American citizens and immigrants who came here to help build America. God has nothing to do with it.

                                    Let's remember it's "Christmas", and not just Happy Holidays.

                                    Which was originally a Pagan festival celebrating winter solstice. Merry X-mas!

                                    May "God Bless America",

                                    Whatever!

                                    and shame on you Home Depot.

                                    More like good for you Home Depot!

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #26.2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:15 AM EST
                                    rick-428133

                                    Our country is based on religious freedom for all its' citizens...that does not mean you have the right to throw your religious beliefs in everyones face when ever you want...we all want freedom from others' religious beliefs...we also want the right to practice our own religious beliefs...if your religion is so important to you work for your religious organization...do not bug other people at work with your religious opinions...in all countries where religion controls the government its' people are repressed...the USA is not a Christian nation...it is a nation of many religions whose rights are protected under the constitution...even the right to not believe...

                                    we don't want to hear your religious beliefs at work...express them at your place of worship...and don't push your beliefs on any of us...no matter what they are...I do want freedom from your religion...

                                      #26.3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:39 AM EST
                                      AJC-383569

                                      gordy327,

                                      You have asked many questions, that would take a long time to answer in detail. I will just say a few things.

                                      1) Our Forefathers did believe in God, and the statement "All me are created equal, and bestowed certain unalienable rights by the CREATOR" proves that.

                                      2) The Constitution and it's sense of justice is based upon God's Principles right out of the Book of "Leviticus" in the Old Testament.

                                      3) God does exist.

                                      4) Although we do celebrate the Birth of Christ on Dec. 25th, which was originally the Pagan Festival of the Winter Celsius, and most biblical scholars don't think it was the real date of Christ's Birth, it still is a day set aside to honor him. So Merry Christmas.

                                      4) If you study American History carfefully you will see God's Hand on this nation working through men and women. Let me remind you that it's no coincidence that the Allies win WWII. The Nazis for example were evil, etc. and practiced paganism. They murdered 12million in the concentration camps, and were responsible for the deaths of 50 million lives.

                                      God will tolerate evil for a season, but ultimately Good will triumph over evil.

                                      5) Lastly, why ail the hostility? I am not yelling at you or trying to convert you, although I know God exists. Open your eyes and you will see his handy work, Even Einstein believed in God because of the Order in the Universe and what shows design.

                                      Have yourself a Merry Christmas. And may you find the answers that it's quite obvious you seek.

                                      • 3 votes
                                      #26.4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:50 AM EST
                                      Breesus319

                                      "I am not yelling at you or trying to convert you, although I know God exists. Open your eyes and you will see his handy work"

                                      I love how you claim you aren't trying to convert him and then, in the next sentence, without a HINT of irony, try and convert him. Priceless.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #26.5 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:01 PM EST
                                      AJC-383569

                                      :)

                                        #26.6 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:03 PM EST
                                        gordy327

                                        1) Our Forefathers did believe in God, and the statement "All me are created equal, and bestowed certain unalienable rights by the CREATOR" proves that.

                                        Their beliefs are well known, but irrelevant. They did not intend their beliefs to be the beliefs or religion of this nation by default. Nor are their beliefs made into law. Their intentions were to establish a secular nation where everyone has the right to believe what they wish.

                                        2) The Constitution and it's sense of justice is based upon God's Principles right out of the Book of "Leviticus" in the Old Testament.

                                        The Constitution is based on English common law and especially the Magna Carta.

                                        3) God does exist

                                        Prove it!

                                        it still is a day set aside to honor him.

                                        It's more like the date absconded by the church to fascilitate the assimilation of the Pagan culture into christianity. You may honor Him on that day, but the reason for doing it is based on dubiousness.

                                        So Merry Christmas.

                                        Happy Holidays!

                                        4) If you study American History carfefully you will see God's Hand on this nation working through men and women.

                                        I know American history and its people may have belifs in God, but that doesn't make God the architect of the country, or even factual. It's still your own personal belief. You're basically crediting God with individuals hard work. I'd say that's credit where credit isn't due. It also sound similar to christian revisionist history as well.

                                        Let me remind you that it's no coincidence that the Allies win WWII.

                                        The Allies won WWII becuase the allied nations had greater manpower, more industry (especially the US), greater resources, and overall better military strategy. Where was God? Oh yeah, He sat back and just watched for 6 years while those millions were being slaughtered. Yeah, that's some God you got there!

                                        5) Lastly, why ail the hostility?

                                        I'm not being hostile. I'm pointing out all the true facts and flaws in your argument. Do you consider anyone who disagrees with you hostile?

                                        although I know God exists.

                                        You only "believe" He does. But you haven't proved it, much less any involvement in this country on His part.

                                        . Open your eyes and you will see his handy work

                                        Again, that is just what you want to believe.

                                        Even Einstein believed in God because of the Order in the Universe and what shows design.

                                        "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive."--Albert Einstein

                                        "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. Thjat is somewhat new kind of religion." --Albert Einstein.

                                        "I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. Tis is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."--Albert Einstein

                                        Shall I continue?

                                        Have yourself a Merry Christmas.

                                        And a happy holidays to you.

                                        And may you find the answers that it's quite obvious you seek.

                                        Science provides the logical or factual answers.

                                        I love how you claim you aren't trying to convert him and then, in the next sentence, without a HINT of irony, try and convert him. Priceless.

                                        As well as deceptive and dishonest!

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #26.7 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:16 PM EST
                                        peterb77

                                        Actually, you don't know that God exists. You believe on faith. There is no evidence that God exists, and if you believe that there is evidence, by all means please present it to the rest of us.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #26.8 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:20 PM EST
                                        gordy327

                                        There is no evidence that God exists

                                        I can even provide evidence that shows a higher probability of God's nonexistence.

                                        and if you believe that there is evidence, by all means please present it to the rest of us.

                                        You'll probably get "evidence" like 'you exist, don't you', or 'look at nature (or creation)', or some nonsense like that.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #26.9 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:25 PM EST
                                        JPJohnson

                                        God only shows himself to Jewish Nomads, and he usually doesn't appear before a large number of people...unless he's about to kill them.

                                        http://www.thebricktestament.com/king_saul/50070_israelites_killed_by_god/1s06_19b.html

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #26.10 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:02 PM EST
                                        Smc31569

                                        No...it's Christmas SPECIFIALLY on Dec 25th...Every other day of December is HAPPY HOLIDAYS. YOUR is not the only religion that celebrates during the month of December so what makes YOU think everyone should cater to YOUR religion ?

                                        Oh...and FYI...the majority of the Founding Fathers were Deists, Agnostics and Humanists. They did not believe in YOUR god.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #26.11 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:21 AM EST
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