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EMTs say they weren't asked to examine ill woman

Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:08 PM EST
us-news, us, odd-news, new-york, new-york-city, woman, mayor-michael-bloomberg, pregnant-woman, emts, brooklyn-district-attorney, two-emts
Deepti Hajela, Associated Press
Two EMTs who allegedly refused to help a dying woman are under investigation. AP correspondent Warren Levinson reports.
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 4 photos
<p>A patron wearing an "FDNY EMT" jacket enters the Au Bon Pain shop in the Brooklyn borough of New York, Tuesday Dec. 22, 2009. Two emergency medical technicians accused of refusing to help a dying pregnant woman are "inhuman" and shouldn't have taken those jobs if they weren't willing to get involved, the woman's mother said Tuesday. Eutisha Revee Rennix, 25, died at a hospital Dec. 9, shortly after collapsing in the Au Bon Pain outlet in Brooklyn where she worked. Her baby was too premature to survive.  (AP Photo/David Goldman)</p>

A patron wearing an "FDNY EMT" jacket enters the Au Bon Pain shop in the Brooklyn borough of New York, Tuesday Dec. 22, 2009. Two emergency medical technicians accused of refusing to help a dying pregnant woman are "inhuman" and shouldn't have taken those jobs if they weren't willing to get involved, the woman's mother said Tuesday. Eutisha Revee Rennix, 25, died at a hospital Dec. 9, shortly after collapsing in the Au Bon Pain outlet in Brooklyn where she worked. Her baby was too premature to survive. (AP Photo/David Goldman)

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NEW YORK — The emergency medical technicians accused of refusing to help a dying pregnant woman were never asked to examine her or told the extent of her condition, their lawyer said Thursday.

Attorney Douglas Rosenthal said his clients were only asked to summon an ambulance on Dec. 9 when they were taking a break in a Brooklyn eatery. He said Jason Green and Melisa Jackson never saw Eutisha Rennix, who was in the back of the Au Bon Pain store, and that other employees didn't seem overly concerned about her condition.

"There was no apparent panic," Rosenthal said in a statement.

Witnesses have said the EMTs told workers to call 911, then left when they were asked to help the 25-year-old pregnant woman. Rennix, who also was the mother of a 3-year-old boy, died at a hospital shortly afterward. The cause of death has not been determined. Her baby did not survive the premature birth.

Rosenthal said Jackson, a four-year veteran, was asked by an employee to summon an ambulance because the six-months-pregnant Rennix was showing asthmatic symptoms and was experiencing abdominal pain.

Rosenthal said Jackson radioed for an ambulance and she and Green, a six-year veteran, stayed until they knew help was coming.

"They were thanked by the employee for their response," he said.

Rosenthal said "protocol, training and regulations" also kept the two emergency workers from intervening further because they didn't have any equipment or medications and worked as dispatchers rather than in the field.

Green and Jackson have been suspended without pay. They are also under investigation by the Brooklyn district attorney's office and the state Department of Health, which oversees EMT training.

A union covering emergency workers has said that all dispatchers are required to be field-trained EMTs or paramedics in order to be more effective at their jobs, and are capable of getting involved in emergency situations. The New York Fire Department says all members take an oath to help others whenever emergency medical care is needed.

Cynthia Rennix said the story doesn't match what she was told by her daughter's coworker and supervisor.

"They were well aware of the seriousness of her being on the floor. They should have at least looked to see what was going on," she said Thursday. "That's no excuse for it."

Medical Examiner's Office spokeswoman Ellen Borakove said Rennix's body would be exhumed and an autopsy performed. The results will be released to authorities investigating the case.

___

Associated Press writer Samantha Gross contributed to this report.

© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (26)
Tim Boothby

Investigating? If they know who it is, why haven't arrests been made?

    Reply#1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:44 PM EST
    rtg-

    It sounds like there's more to this story. Perhaps the EMT's had been drinking and felt they couldn't provide adequate help, or would do more harm than good?

      Reply#2 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:07 PM EST
      Tim Boothby

      accused of refusing to help a pregnant woman who had collapsed in the coffee shop where they were taking a break.

      Hopefully they don't drink on their break ;)

        #2.1 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:26 PM EST
        DonnaSTL

        Whatever....if I was giving birth in a diner, I wouldn't care if they were drunk, smelled like 5 day old fish/french fry oil, and were smoking meth, I would need/take the help.

        SHE NEEDED HELP!!!! What a disaster in the one State that needed so much help on that nasty day with the planes. OMG!!!

        I think her family should take that giant Christmas Tree at 30 Rock (after the holiday of course) and ensure they both take turns shoving the tree up their ya know on the top as the evil EMT's rather than stars.

          #2.2 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:42 AM EST
          rtg-

          I'm just guessing here, but I don't remember it saying they were on a break, I thought it said they were off-duty, and if they were off-duty, its possible they'd been drinking. I think its allowed to drink on their own time or we wouldn't have many EMTs, since everyone likes to believe they have free time to do what they want. That's just a theory, because I can't for the life of me figure out what other reason they could have for not assisting. What the article didn't say was if their help would have saved her or the baby. I'm not arguing that not helping was right, just trying to think of a possible reason for it.

            #2.3 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:14 PM EST
            lilian101

            More likely, the EMTs were drinking and having fun watching the woman die.

              #2.4 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:35 AM EST
              Reply
              Tony in Arizona

              I read a post from a soldier who is trained in emergency responder care but is prohibited by Army regulation from performing any such care to anyone outside the military. Not the same thing as what happened here to be sure. What I'd like to know are the union rules by which these EMTs abide as it relates to breaks and off duty performance/liability, although I do not condone their behavior.

                Reply#3 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:13 PM EST
                jamithy1

                can they be arrested for being heartless douche bags? I hope so... if not we will have to wait for Karma.... butr don't worry, she always shows up sooner or later

                • 2 votes
                Reply#4 - Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:18 PM EST
                HonestIndy

                It might sound cruel and unusual but it's has become the standard practice in the emergency services field because of the way the Good Samaritan laws have been written.

                Pretty much it goes like this -- if you are not a health care professional and you render aid to someone in an emergency you are for the most part shielded from any type of lawsuit, BUT if you are a health care professional (nurse, doctor, emt etc..) and you render aid to someone in an emergency you can be sued if something goes wrong.

                Now of course some of you will say that if they are on break they really aren't being paid so they would be shielded because of the law but you would be wrong. If you get rewarded for your efforts in rescuing someone you then have been "paid" to perform that work and in turn are now liable for any malpractice concerning the incident. So if you stopped and rescued someone from a burning car tonight and the next day their family gave you 10,000 dollars but 2 days later the guy died because of something you did, they could sue you for it because you "accepted" the money to accomplish the rescue. The quandry for the EMT's in this situation is that even though after the fact they might get paid or recognized for their efforts, their INSURANCE wouldn't have been effect for that incident because the insurance only covers you while you are actually "ON THE JOB". So if anything went wrong the EMTs would face a lawsuit and would have to pay for it out of pocket.

                Now of course most would think this whole thing is ludicris but it where this country has gone. Trail laywers run this country and live and die by lawsuits. And these lawsuits know no limits -- see reference of an 8 yr old being sued over a skiing incident.

                I don't blame the EMTs for the actions, as the reasons they took the action they did was to protect their family and their lively hood in a society were no good deed goes unpunished or unsued.

                  Reply#5 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:07 PM EST
                  MTLGuy

                  Correct me if I am wrong, but must not there be gross negligence in order to sue. And negligence in the case of a trained person. If anything they displayed negligence by leaving.

                    #5.1 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:32 PM EST
                    HonestIndy

                    Yes it has to be gross negligence under the good samaritan law but not under malpractice law which is what the EMTs would be subject too. So if anything went wrong even something minor the EMTs could be sued where a normal citizen would not be sued. Since they are not covered by insurance they would be paying out of pocket for it.

                    If anything they displayed negligence by leaving.

                    They complied 100% with the law which is to notify emergency services if you witness an emergency. There is no law to compel anyone to include off-duty emergency personnel to render aid to someone in need. It sounds cold hearted but thats the society we live in. Give thanks to all those who file lawsuits over everything...

                    Here are some fine examples why I will never stop to help anyone in needed except my family:

                    Friend attempts to pull a woman from a car after a wreck where witness saw fire under the hood. This good smaritan will be broke from the legal bills alone even if she wins the case, and now the court said she can be sued for helping out, since it wasn't medical help she provided. I guess its better to let them sit in the seat of a car that looks like it might catch on fire.

                    Doctor and Nurse sued for helping a dying man. Now they won the case - but they had to pay for all the legal fees to defend themselves --- all the way to the state supreme court... one hell of a legal bill.

                    Also, my mother-in-law who is a nurse has been told via several nurses organizations that stopping to help is a good thing but they should at all times aviod mentioning the fact they are a nurse and if possible do not reveal your name or other identifing information. The reason --- lawsuits. Also here is a blog from a nurses website where a nurse says the same thing (comment #12).

                    • 1 vote
                    #5.2 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:17 PM EST
                    MTLGuy

                    Wow just wow. In Quebec (my home) there is a law that states you must aid a person in need. I prefer our system where people are obliged to help and as long as you do try to help, you are absolved of all liability, except of course gross negligence.Which to me makes perfect sense.

                      #5.3 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:44 PM EST
                      YaddaYadda

                      HonestIndy, it's a little telling to me that the FDNY suspended the 2 EMTs without pay, though. If it were as simple as 2 off duty EMTs walking away, it would seem to me that they would have been suspended with pay, or put on some sort of desk duty. It seems that there's a little more to the story than we're hearing.

                        #5.4 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:27 PM EST
                        Reply
                        SilentShogun

                        HonestIndy..Im right there with you. I would not stop or identify myself as an EMT off duty...Yes I joined this career path to help people, but that includes my family and i will not put my livelyhood in jeopardy with all the sue happy people out there. Im sure you have heard the one about the guy getting sued for cracking ribs while performing CPR.

                        I think there might be more to this story. They were dispatchers (who might have EMT but most haven't touched a patient in years) eating breakfast on break??? I am not familiar with NY depts but i don't know any places where they have enough manning to let 2 dispatchers go on break to eat breakfast...I am wondering if they were either going on shift or coming off...who knows...

                        On the other hand...people see a firefighter/EMT and they have faith in you to help. They don't know about the inside political BS that goes on with protocols and such.....I can't imagine myself being in uniform and saying just call 911...i will follow this story...

                        To many people looking to get rich of people trying to help.... Its the new lottery.

                          Reply#6 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:38 PM EST
                          PiperGirl

                          Hmmmm, I guess the question is: are you obligated to help every person in need at all times just because you are trained to do so. Society certainly has an expectation that EMTs wil jump right in every time they see a person who could use medical assistance. I am not sure that expectation is reasonable.

                          I am not a medical professional. I am, however, in a field in which people always want to ask "just one little question." Sometimes I don't want to answer and I really don't appreciate having to the that knowledge expect at all times -- whether dining with friends or family, or taking my nephew to the fair.

                          EMTs and other medical professionals deserve down time and time off away from their very stressful responsibilities just as all others do. Had the EMTs not been present in the cafe, the girl and child would still have died. They didn't kill her, they just didn't save her.

                          Also, it is unclear to me that they would have been protected from legal action had they tried to assist and their care had been found wanting. Are they even covered by their union representatives when off-duty? And sorry, but the mother just sounds sue-happy.

                          We have no right to place expectations on other people who are going about their own business, especially expectations up to which most of us do not have to live. The EMTs were not present in that coffe shop for the purpose of saving lives, but rather, to not have to save lives at that particular moment in time.

                          I won't defend their decision to get up and leave, but I won't paint them as evil incarnate because of it, either. They were not on the job at the time, therefore, it wasn't necessarily their job to act then and there.

                          • 1 vote
                          Reply#7 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:56 PM EST
                          lilian101

                          It more reasonable to expect EMTs, the heroes that they are, to sit and eat their sandwiches will people die around them, as entertainment on their lunch hour.

                            #7.1 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:34 AM EST
                            PiperGirl

                            Who says that all EMTs are heroes? I'm sure that some have performed heroic acts. Others probably go home and beat their wives and kids.

                            Maybe the problem here is seeing people as something that you have no reason to believe they are, yet expecting them to act accordingly, nonetheless.

                            Also, there is little evidence that the EMTs found the woman's situation entertaining -- those who read the article know that they actually left the scene. We also know the woman didn't die in the EMT's presence -- she died in the hospital several hours later. Finally, the EMTs didn't seek out a situation where a woman took ill; they were already present, dining on their own time, when events transpired.

                            If you want to characterize the EMTs as evil, integrity would demand that you do so based on what they actually did or didn't do. When you have to deviate from the truth and resort to fiction in order to make your case, it really is quite difficult to protray yourself in any sort of morally superior light.

                            • 1 vote
                            #7.2 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:19 AM EST
                            Reply
                            HonestIndy

                            YaddaYadda wrote:

                            HonestIndy, it's a little telling to me that the FDNY suspended the 2 EMTs without pay, though.

                            Public Relations move Yadda. The dispatchers are in a union and the FD suspended pending investigation. Guess what.. investigation proves they were well within their rights and bam they are paid for their time off and go back to work. I have seen the same sort of move used where I work.

                            Example - Union member pisses off someone from another company department or customer -- company says we have taken care of the issue and suspends the union worker for several days, then makes it well known to the offending customer --- in turn customer is really happy and company retains their business. The union worker then files a grievance, the union and company sit down for mediation, both sides sign a confidentiality statement and bam the union worker is back at work the next day with a check to cover the hours they were suspended for. Since there is a confidentiality statement the company nor the union can public admit or deny if the employee received money for being off. Perfect Public relations move that both the company and the unions love to make use of.... and yes the unions love to use this move too, on the flip side I have seen unions make an informal backroom request to get someone "laid off" or "suspended" and then reinstated and the union then agrees to pay for the time off of the employee.

                              Reply#8 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:58 PM EST
                              MTLGuy

                              Whether they made a good decision or not is debatable, but one thing that is certain to me is that there is something fundamentally wrong when people override their compassion out of fear of reprisal. The ability to empathise is one of the biggest gifts man has been endowed with. Any judge who has awarded a settlement against a good Samaritan, should read this story and reflect.

                              • 1 vote
                              Reply#9 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:05 PM EST
                              HonestIndy

                              Wow just wow. In Quebec (my home) there is a law that states you must aid a person in need.

                              The law of the land in the USA (in most states I know for sure) is that you are required to notify the police if you witness a crime or an emergency situation. That is all you are required to do by law. To require certain individuals to do otherwise on their OWN time while they are not under contract or paid time to do so would be unconstitutional. I mention contract because lots of police officers are on salary and are required to respond to and take action against certain crimes regardless if they are "on-duty" or "off-duty" and if they are within the jurisdictional boundaries of their department and are capable of taking action (ie.. not drunk etc..)

                                Reply#10 - Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:09 PM EST
                                lilian101

                                Gee when did law enforcement become a mandatory duty? Cops may with utter impunity sit and watch gang rapes, murder, et cetera without fear of even civil liability. Its discretionary whether law enforcement may chose to enforce the law.

                                  #10.1 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:32 AM EST
                                  Reply
                                  lilian101

                                  Sounds like a shocking aberration doesn't it? Well, compare it with your own personal experience attempting to relate a racially motivated assault by a minority against a White to a disinterested cop who insists that you 'calm down' or to the 911 operator who refuses to sens assistance. We have developed a culture where these 'public service heroes' are a special group who consider everyone else to be 'civilians' That means that they are military because they are not civilians-so they must be paramilitary forces subconsciously subduing and holding in check, an occupied nation.

                                  And why would they help someone on their break who was not one of their own?

                                    Reply#11 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:29 AM EST
                                    YaddaYadda

                                    lilian, i've read your posts and this last one leads me to ask a question. is your assumption that these EMTs either walked away or watched this woman die because you or someone you know had an experience similar to this? i'm asking because i truly want to know.

                                      #11.1 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:22 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      Tiger messed it up for all of us

                                      As dispatchers, Green, a 6-year veteran, and Jackson, a 4-year veteran, are fully trained EMTs.

                                      obviously they never had to attend any classes or possess any common sense. I hope some sort of criminal charges are brought against these 2 losers.

                                        Reply#12 - Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:16 PM EST
                                        YaddaYadda

                                        There are 2 different stories going around here. First one, these are dispatchers on break (dispatchers are fully trained as EMTs, however) and did not have any drugs or equipment with them. They were asked to call for an ambulance which they did. They were not advised of any serious problem with the person and so felt no immediate need to go to her aid because an ambulance was on the way. Even if they had, they could have only rendered minimal assistance as, again, they had no drugs or equipment with them. The 2nd story is pretty much the same as the first, except they were asked to examine the woman in distress and did not. Witnesses are telling authorities both sides of the story.

                                          #12.1 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:52 PM EST
                                          Reply
                                          HonestIndy

                                          Criminal charges for what? Doing the same thing everyone else in the diner was doing? The called 911 which is apparently more then anyone else in the diner did. I guess from now on we should expect everyone to stop what they are doing and offer assistance to any situation they see that is in the job field... mechanics should stop by every broken down car, plumbers stop by every leaky faucet and by god a chef needs to stop by my mother house --- and all of it should be free !!!

                                          There will be no criminal charges, as they did nothing legally wrong. Since we only have part of the picture there is no reason to even assume that the woman at the time was in severe distress or presented herself in dire need of immediate medical attention. She could have just fainted, asked for her asthma medication and over the next few hours died from some other type of complications. Should EMTs now put their life on hold at every minor incidentthey witness? From the expectations the general public seems to have on EMTs I am glad I never choose to be one.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          Reply#13 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:48 AM EST
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