Newsvine
  • Welcome
  • Help
  • Report Bug
  • Conversation Tracker
  • Your Column
  • Replies
  • Friends
Type Comments Since You Last CheckedArticle Source Last Checked Stop Tracking All Clear Tracking All
Advertise | AdChoices
Log In | Register
Close the Login Panel
Existing users log in below. New users please register for a free account.

New Users:

Existing Users:

E-Mail:
Password:
Forgot Password?
Please enter the e-mail address or domain name you registered with:
E-Mail/Domain:
Back to Login
Log Out
  • Top News
  • Local News
  • World
  • U.S.
  • Sports
  • Politics
  • Tech
  • Entertainment
  • Science
  • Business
  • Health
  • Odd News
  • More
    • Arts
    • Education
    • Environment
    • Fashion
    • History
    • Home & Garden
    • Not News
    • Religion
    • Travel
What is Newsvine?

Updated continuously by citizens like you, Newsvine is an instant reflection of what the world is talking about at any given moment.

Get a Free Account
Help
Fun Stuff
  • Your Clippings
  • Leaderboard
  • E-Mail Alerts
  • Top of the Vine
  • Newsvine Live
  • Newsvine Archives
  • The Greenhouse
  • Recommended Articles
  • Wall of Vineness
Put a Seed Newsvine link on your own site

Jobless claims, goods orders signal modest rebound

Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:35 AM EST
business, politics, us, economy
Martin Crutsinger, AP Economics Writer
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 5 photos
<p>FILE - In this Nov. 4, 2009 file photo, Sonja Jackson, of Detroit, holds a Employment Guide standing in line while attending a job fair in Livonia, Mich. The number of newly laid off workers filing claims for unemployment benefits unexpectedly rose last week as the recovery of the nation's battered labor market proceeds in fits and starts.(AP Photo/Paul Sancya, File)</p>

FILE - In this Nov. 4, 2009 file photo, Sonja Jackson, of Detroit, holds a Employment Guide standing in line while attending a job fair in Livonia, Mich. The number of newly laid off workers filing claims for unemployment benefits unexpectedly rose last week as the recovery of the nation's battered labor market proceeds in fits and starts.(AP Photo/Paul Sancya, File)

Advertise | AdChoices

WASHINGTON — A fitful economic recovery is drawing strength from a stabilizing job market and signs that manufacturing will contribute to the rebound. The evidence signals a better-than-expected end to the year, though doubts remain about growth in 2010.

The latest signs of improvement came in two reports Thursday. The Labor Department said the number of newly laid-off workers filing claims for unemployment aid fell more than expected last week. The four-week average for claims, which smooths out fluctuations, fell for the 16th straight week, to its lowest point since September 2008, when the financial crisis hit with full force.

Further evidence of a gradually healing economy was a Commerce Department report that orders to U.S. factories for big-ticket durable goods rose in November. The overall increase was less than expected. But excluding the volatile transportation category, the gains were twice what economists had forecast.

Stocks rose after the positive reports, ending a holiday-shortened session at new highs for the year. The Dow Jones industrial average gained about 53 points, or 0.5 percent.

Economists saw the new data as further signs that the economy is strengthening as 2009 nears a close. Adding to the optimism was a wave of shoppers — some snowed in by last weekend's East Coast snowstorm — heading to the malls for last-minute purchases Thursday.

"We are seeing progress in a number of areas, from increases in consumer spending and business spending to growth in exports," said Brian Bethune, an economist at IHS Global Economics. "It all adds up to a recovery that is gaining some momentum."

Bethune said he's forecasting that the economy, as measured by the gross domestic product, will expand at an annual rate of around 4 percent in the current quarter. Helping fuel the gains, businesses are boosting orders to factories to restock their depleted shelves.

Bethune said growth would likely slow in 2010 to a rate of around 2.5 percent. But he said there will be enough momentum to remove the threat that the recovery from the nation's deepest recession in seven decades might falter. Other economists agreed that the rebound in factory orders reflected rising confidence by businesses.

Orders for durable goods edged up 0.2 percent last month, weaker than the 0.5 percent gain economists had expected. But excluding transportation, orders rose 2 percent over the October level, double what economists had forecast.

Demand for commercial aircraft plunged 32.6 percent. Total orders for transportation products sank 5.5 percent as demand for motor vehicles and parts edged down 0.2 percent, the weakest showing in five months.

Strength in November came in areas such as orders for machinery, which rose 3.5 percent. Orders for primary metals such as steel grew 1.4 percent. And orders for computers and electronic products jumped 3.7 percent, the biggest gain since February.

Analysts noted that demand for non-defense capital goods excluding aircraft, considered a proxy for business equipment spending plans, posted a solid rise of 2.9 percent.

"Firms are starting to believe they can come out of their shells and start thinking about the future," said Joel Naroff, chief economist at Naroff Economic Advisors. "It looks like the business community has concluded this recovery is for real."

The number of new jobless claims fell to 452,000 last week on a seasonally adjusted basis. That was better than the decline to 470,000 that economists had expected. And the four-week average for claims, which smooths out fluctuations, fell to 465,250.

The decline in claims continued a trend that began last summer. The improvement is seen as a sign that jobs cuts are slowing and hiring could pick up early next year.

The government cautioned that seasonal employment from holidays and other variables in the calendar made last week a difficult one to seasonally adjust. The actual number of new claims exceeded the previous week's total. But the process of adjusting for seasonal variation reduced the number.

Economists monitor jobless claims as a gauge of the pace of layoffs. Analysts say initial claims need to fall to about 425,000 for several weeks to signal the economy is actually starting to add jobs.

The government said the number of people continuing to receive regular jobless benefits fell by 127,000 to 5.08 million for the week ending Dec. 12. That figure doesn't include millions of people who have used up the 26 weeks of benefits typically provided by states and are now receiving extended benefits for up to 73 more weeks.

The number of people receiving extended benefits jumped to 4.37 million for the week ending Dec. 5, an increase of 141,807 from the previous week. That surge illustrated that high unemployment persists despite fewer layoffs. It also reflects the fact that 38 states are now processing claims for the extension of benefits that Congress approved last month.

The jobless rate dipped in November to 10 percent, down from a 26-year high of 10.2 percent in October. Some analysts fear unemployment will resume rising in coming months and won't peak until hitting 10.5 percent next summer.

Still, the November jobless report showed that businesses slashed their payrolls by just 11,000 jobs on net in November, the smallest decrease since the recession began two years ago.

© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Back To Top | Front Page

Published to:

  • Martin Crutsinger's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: none
  • Regions: Washington DC
  • Public Discussion (55)
River-239955

The number of newly laid-off workers filing claims for unemployment benefits has fallen more than expected as the labor market makes a fitful recovery.

Just what makes them so sure the numbers of new job losses aren't falling because there are no jobs left to lose ? Fitful recovery my left foot.....

  • 4 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:13 AM EST
UNA_Lion

Another question: Are not some jobs seasonal? From reports I've seen, some businesses will hire extra folks for the holidays and then lay them off in January.

  • 4 votes
#1.1 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:38 AM EST
GOP Rules

Fitful - I really never knew that fitful meant the same thing as fictitious... Gosh, you really do learn something every day...

  • 2 votes
#1.2 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:49 AM EST
River-239955

Another question: Are not some jobs seasonal? From reports I've seen, some businesses will hire extra folks for the holidays and then lay them off in January.

It's critical to remember, also, that jobs related to finance are booming from January to April, meaning many seasonal employees will be back to work, for a few paychecks. They'll try to use those numbers to hype up their "recovery" as well. It won't be a recovery at all for us. It will only mean that those of us who haven't had a paycheck since April will have a few little dollars to try and dig our way out of the hole from this past year.

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:02 AM EST
Nicey-1026620

Another question: Are not some jobs seasonal? From reports I've seen, some businesses will hire extra folks for the holidays and then lay them off in January.

All the job reports I can think of are seasonally adjusted to account for that.

  • 2 votes
#1.4 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:21 AM EST
Eric AlbertDeleted
Britlassy

Exactly River, and the other warning bell... more like a death knell, was the phrase Gov report.

Geeze, there is an unbiased source.

There was an article that was a source of reference, that said, Obama stated all the funds for the creation of any new jobs were gone...

  • 3 votes
#1.6 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:46 PM EST
Reply
Demosthene

This unemployed person does not follow or believe these numbers, touted by economists as indication of "recovery." I'll believe recovery when I'm gainfully employed again.

  • 5 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:20 AM EST
chucky1169469

well you wont get one hanging out on the pc all day.

  • 4 votes
#2.1 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:54 AM EST
ObamaTheLoser2012

No recovery until Job Growth! Another 200,000 jobs losses for December will be reported by ADP before the Labor Department Report on January 8th?

  • 2 votes
#2.2 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:54 AM EST
River-239955

well you wont get one hanging out on the pc all day.

I make marginally more money from my pc than I spend going out to look for additional work (which does not pay off in this day and time). It is possible to make money online.

  • 1 vote
#2.3 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:03 AM EST
Nicey-1026620

No recovery until Job Growth! Another 200,000 jobs losses for December will be reported by ADP before the Labor Department Report on January 8th?

ADP? Who is woefully inaccurate all the time.

Anyway...

200k? It hasn't been at that number for 3 months now, so you are basing this on speculation?

    #2.4 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:22 AM EST
    Nicey-1026620

    It is possible to make money online.

    Quick pitch me your infomercial...

    • 1 vote
    #2.5 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:23 AM EST
    chucky1169469

    I make marginally more money from my pc than I spend going out to look for additional work (which does not pay off in this day and time). It is possible to make money online.

    Well then you might wanna hook this dude up.

    Demosthene
    This unemployed person does not follow or believe these numbers, touted by economists as indication of "recovery." I'll believe recovery when I'm gainfully employed again.

    • 1 vote
    #2.6 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:04 AM EST
    ohiogal-479871

    well you wont get one hanging out on the pc all day.

    Or by running around like a chicken with its head cut off on Christmas eve when no one is hiring till after the break because the majority of HR is on vacation.

    • 4 votes
    #2.7 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:01 PM EST
    River-239955

    Well then you might wanna hook this dude up.

    I'm happy to share what I have learned with everyone, but out of respect for COH and Newsvine in general, I can't share links that are not requested. If you want to know more, please do send me an email or speak up otherwise and I will gladly forward you the information that I have already tested and am finding success with.

    (Please forgive me, newsvine, if I am in violation with this note.)

    :)

    • 1 vote
    #2.8 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:05 PM EST
    Behind My Screen

    River,

    McDonalds is hiring. So is Taco Bell. Heck... most fast food places are looking for people.

    • 3 votes
    #2.9 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:38 PM EST
    River-239955

    McDonald's and Taco Bell have my application, and for the record, I do have two jobs, one seasonal, one part time, already. It's just that the two of them together don't pay well enough to even get close to beating out poverty level.

    Thanks, though, for thinking of me. :)

    • 3 votes
    #2.10 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:41 PM EST
    Behind My Screen

    That says something about where corporate america is as far as wages. FDR said a person who works full time should be able to take care of himself and his family. Some how, over the last 80 years we lost that.

    • 4 votes
    #2.11 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:48 PM EST
    River-239955

    That says something about where corporate america is as far as wages.

    While I'm on my little bitty soapbox, I'll point out that I have well over 200 certification hours (not college accredited, but government-recognized) in my back pocket. Can score 100% in Intro to Accounting Principles, but can't get out of poverty to save my soul. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Very, very frustrating..........

    • 5 votes
    #2.12 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:57 PM EST
    Reply
    deeman

    Exclude this...exclude that...what a game of manipulating consumer sentiment. Shows you just how important consumer confidence is to the administration. They are so desperate that they continue to try to manipulate us even when it would hurt consumer saving for the benefit of gov't coffers and when we are starting to understand their game of deceit.

      Reply#3 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:49 AM EST
      deeman

      Cut your coat out of the cloth you have, government.

        Reply#4 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:51 AM EST
        ObamaTheLoser2012

        Seasonal positions are keeping claims low now, but wait for January when all the Seasonal Workers are laidoff?

        • 3 votes
        Reply#5 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:52 AM EST
        deeman

        Government, take care of your millions and the trillions will take care of themselves.

          Reply#6 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:53 AM EST
          ObamaTheLoser2012

          November's numbers of 11,000 job losses will be revised upward toward 100,000 and December's job losses will be over 150,000 job losses. January's job losses will be again over 200,000 and more over the coming years? NO RECOVERY!

          • 1 vote
          Reply#7 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:58 AM EST
          Nicey-1026620

          November's numbers of 11,000 job losses will be revised upward toward 100,000 and December's job losses will be over 150,000 job losses. January's job losses will be again over 200,000 and more over the coming years? NO RECOVERY!

          Weren't September, October both revised down? It doesn't seem to be the trend your proposing.

          Go back to your bomb shelter.

          • 4 votes
          #7.1 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:24 AM EST
          Reply
          rick-673281

          Fell to 452,000 hmm let me see sure sounds like a recovery to me almost another half a million new claims and this is a weekly number not monthly. Damn good news to me(sarc)

          • 1 vote
          Reply#8 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:03 AM EST
          Nicey-1026620

          Fell to 452,000 hmm let me see sure sounds like a recovery to me almost another half a million new claims and this is a weekly number not monthly. Damn good news to me(sarc)

          You're aware initial claims are usually between 300-350k even during an economic expansion.

          Because people *gasp* lose jobs, quit, get laid off, etc every day of every year.

          • 1 vote
          #8.1 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:25 AM EST
          USA 1-1003451

          Who's hiring 350K people this week Nicey????

          Since we are looking at 452,000 claims then we can say that we aren't in an expansion. The US is still swirling down the toilet.

          This is just a bogus headline out of DC. on the eve of the health care fiasco being passed to try to stroke the public to believe all is well when it isn't.

          • 1 vote
          #8.2 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:00 AM EST
          Nicey-1026620

          Who's hiring 350K people this week Nicey????

          What do initial unemployment claims have to do with the number of people hired every week?

          I was pointing out that:

          Damn good news to me(sarc)

          Is a misunderstanding of saying "half a million people filed initial unemployment claims" people always are filing unemployment claims.

          Since we are looking at 452,000 claims then we can say that we aren't in an expansion. The US is still swirling down the toilet.

          What is your definition for expansion?

          Expansion in employment? Economic activity?

          Looking at the nominal number of initial unemployment claims alone can't tell you anything about expansion.

          Looking at the number with perspective to whether it is increasing or decreasing can. Or whether it is peaking or bottoming.

          This is just a bogus headline out of DC. on the eve of the health care fiasco being passed to try to stroke the public to believe all is well when it isn't.

          Ah yes, the numbers they have always reported for decades are a conspiracy timed with healthcare.

          They always report initial unemployment claims every week. In fact, they do it every thursday if I'm not mistaken.

          • 1 vote
          #8.3 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:23 AM EST
          USA 1-1003451

          Nicey, I remember the Thanksgiving numbers and you was out cheer-leading. I DID NOT see you on the following weeks "more unemployed than expected threads." Remember, the ones I said would come. Do you show up only on the "upswing seeds" only to wave the pom poms?

          The economy is still in a mess. Tell the millions who are unemployed how great everything is. You're full of it.

          How does the government calculate expansion when we make less steel, cars, computers, TVs, clothing, fixtures, furniture, toys, etc in the US every year? There are less jobs out there every year. Customer service jobs are outsourced overseas so when your Chinese widget breaks to get someone in India on the phone.

          Through the first eight months of 2009 (January – August), U.S. goods and services exports totaled $996.2 billion, a 20.3 percent decline from the $1,250.5 billion exported through the same period of 2008. Source: ITA August 2009 report

          • 2 votes
          #8.4 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:12 PM EST
          USA 1-1003451

          With all the jobs leaving the US and no large number job recovery in the foreseeable future. The Millions currently unemployed and new job seekers graduating have a very bleak job future in store.

          • 1 vote
          #8.5 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:15 PM EST
          Nicey-1026620

          Nicey, I remember the Thanksgiving numbers and you was out cheer-leading. I DID NOT see you on the following weeks "more unemployed than expected threads." Remember, the ones I said would come. Do you show up only on the "upswing seeds" only to wave the pom poms?

          You mean you "were" out cheer leading...

          Ok.

          What else would you know about unemployment since the last report the 1st week in December? That's right. Nothing. Because nothing will be reported till the first week of January.

          I've never said the economy wasn't bad. That things are awesome.

          Through the first eight months of 2009 (January – August), U.S. goods and services exports totaled $996.2 billion, a 20.3 percent decline from the $1,250.5 billion exported through the same period of 2008. Source: ITA August 2009 report

          Objectively...No Sh** sherlock. The entire global economy contracted in 2009. Some countries in SE Asia saw 50%+ declines in exports.

          Again, I've never said things aren't bad.

          But it amazes me that people believe that 452,000 in initial claims is so terrible...when even in good expansions that number will be around 300,000-350,000, and it's certainly better than 676,000, which is what it was 9 months ago.

          • 1 vote
          #8.6 - Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:27 AM EST
          USA 1-1003451

          When the economy is good, people do switch jobs or get fired and find new jobs. Currently, people lose their jobs and can't find any job or are underemployed. The number of unemployed keeps rising.

          You act like the citizens don't have a legitimate cause for concern. They do and should worry about their economic future.

          Have you stopped by this article yet?

          http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34601256/

          Here are a few snippets for you.

          The unemployed number 15.4 million. The jobless rate is 10 percent. More than 7 million jobs have vanished. People out of work at least six months number a record 5.9 million. And household income, adjusted for inflation, has shrunk in the past decade.

          That's mainly because the economy's recovery, sluggish by historical standards, isn't expected to regain its vigor over the next few years. As a result, companies will be in no rush to ramp up hiring.

          Some analysts think the jobless rate might have already peaked at 10.2 percent in October. But most economists predict the rate will peak at around 10.5 percent by the middle of next year.

          Looks like the majority of economists are forecasting the numbers to continue to get worse. This is what others and I have been saying. You just want to try to cut off anybody at the knees that disagrees with you.

            #8.7 - Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:14 AM EST
            jaker023

            When the economy is good, people do switch jobs or get fired and find new jobs. Currently, people lose their jobs and can't find any job or are underemployed. The number of unemployed keeps rising.

            agreed.

            However, I don't think that anyone here is really questionning that the unemployment rate will continue to rise. The main issue though, is that it is increasing at a SLOWER PACE.

            with that pace slowing, it will eventually (and hopefully sooner rather than later) turn towards a shrinking in the number of unemployed folks. but one cannot expect for the work force to shed 600,000 jobs one month, and then gain jobs the following month.

            it is a gradual process. unforuntately, Americans are so used to immediate gratification and have the attitude of "what have you done for me lately", thus fueling their level of impatientness....

              #8.8 - Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:55 AM EST
              USA 1-1003451

              How can anybody say were are on the road to recovery when more jobs are being lost than created? That's been the foundation of my comments. I know it is going to be a long and slow recovery after this continuing downward trend.

              Many unemployed may find that it will be YEARS before they find a job that can support them and their families. Businesses are waiting to see what new health care disaster bill, Cap and Tax bill, or an all out tax just to tax bill they will face in the coming future.

              People who are losing their car, house, or retirement will tend to be a bit more impatient than others. People selling off property to buy groceries after their unemployment benefits expire will also tend to be more impatient.

                #8.9 - Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:23 AM EST
                Nicey-1026620

                When the economy is good, people do switch jobs or get fired and find new jobs. Currently, people lose their jobs and can't find any job or are underemployed. The number of unemployed keeps rising.

                No. I actually am able to see that very well.

                The BLS reports are very revealing in this instance in particular because the U6 number along with numbers reported from outside the workforce (which represent the permenant job loss we are seeing) show exactly what is happening.

                I'm not debating that. Nor have I ever said that.

                Facts:

                • Job losses have peaked, months ago, not even debatable. (both net losses and initial reported)
                • The economy stopped contracting. Period.

                Those are the only things I've really said. I haven't jumped up and down for joy. Said look out, things are going to be great now! I don't act like they aren't facing dire times. I advocate researching the subject if they want to debate the report.

                And this isn't a media report. So it's not media bias we are looking at. It's not an article about unemployment, job loss, etc. It's a report, conducted year in and year out.

                The unemployed number 15.4 million. The jobless rate is 10 percent. More than 7 million jobs have vanished. People out of work at least six months number a record 5.9 million. And household income, adjusted for inflation, has shrunk in the past decade.

                It's actually a little worse than that. Because that doesn't account for people who permenantly left the workforce, discouraged, or marginally attached.

                The number on unemployment has now been divided into two categories. Those who recieve the normal 26 weeks (5.9 million is not a record [nor the correct current number]...this number was WAY higher just this year) and those on the extended 52 weeks and 78 weeks. In total, it certainly is a record.

                In fact, it's reported in the article just above that we are discussing.

                "The government said the number of people continuing to receive regular jobless benefits fell by 127,000 to 5.08 million for the week ending Dec. 12. That figure doesn't include millions of people who have used up the 26 weeks of benefits typically provided by states and are now receiving extended benefits for up to 73 more weeks.

                The number of people receiving extended benefits jumped to 4.37 million for the week ending Dec. 5, an increase of 141,807 from the previous week."

                So total now on unemployment benefits is 9.45 million, which is a record.

                As far as household income, I guess we will have to wait for the Census to upate that information.

                http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h06ar.html

                Which is adjusted for inflation. In real dollars, it was down slightly from 1999 to 2006 (last reported official one).

                If you look up "median household income" under PPP (which is Purchase Power Parity, the representation of purchasing power for your money) you will get 50,233 for 2007. Which would be an increase in real dollars over the peak in 1999.

                Thru this recession, surprisingly, pay (per hour as reported) has gone up. Against inflation? Well, there's been little to even negative inflation since December 2007. But again, till that data is collected, just speculation by me or you.

                That's mainly because the economy's recovery, sluggish by historical standards, isn't expected to regain its vigor over the next few years. As a result, companies will be in no rush to ramp up hiring.

                I think it will be sluggish. And unemployment probably will remain high.

                Some analysts think the jobless rate might have already peaked at 10.2 percent in October. But most economists predict the rate will peak at around 10.5 percent by the middle of next year.

                Again, I never disagreed with that. But you don't seem to understand the unemployment rate is not any indicator of contraction or expansion in any economy.

                The rate could be 50% and that alone would not tell you whether the economy is contracting or expanding.

                What marks (usually) the beginning of contraction is job loss. Which December 2007 was the exact month in which job losses started on a net basis. What marks (usually) the end of contraction is the peak of initial reported claims.

                I'm not cheering or booing the economy. I'm advocating that before people just start harking about "it's this administration" "the media is lying to us" "things are only getting worse" etc that we look a little further and get some correct perspective.

                They were talking about "unprecedented job losses" when we lost 600,000 in one month...?? That's not unprecedented at all. We lost that amount of jobs in the 1982-1983 recession in single months and the job force was significantly smaller.

                Records are relative. We have a much larger economy today than in the past. Just keeping perspective.

                That being said, this recession is debt led. Which makes it entirely different than anything we have faced since the depression. And it presents a unique situation because of that.

                • 1 vote
                #8.10 - Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:59 AM EST
                Nicey-1026620

                How can anybody say were are on the road to recovery when more jobs are being lost than created? That's been the foundation of my comments. I know it is going to be a long and slow recovery after this continuing downward trend.

                Because the road to recovery is a long road that has many mile markers.

                The unemployment rate has always risen after the economy stops contracting and is in fact growing. After every recession that's true.

                But let's just look a few years back. The economy stopped contracting in Q4 2001. Unemployment didn't peak till June 2003. But looking at some other stats from that month reveals...

                http://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/empsit_07032003.pdf

                The Labor Force grew by 611,000 people, of which employment increased 251,000, unemployment increased 360,000, a net job loss of 30,000 workers was recorded.

                I don't know anyone who would say we were not experiencing some form of "being on the road to recovery" in 2003, even some people would have said 2002.

                Many unemployed may find that it will be YEARS before they find a job that can support them and their families. Businesses are waiting to see what new health care disaster bill, Cap and Tax bill, or an all out tax just to tax bill they will face in the coming future.

                I agree with that. But many businesses are also sitting on a ton of cash. And they are not simply going to leave it in the bank forever. They will put it to work to generate profits.

                People who are losing their car, house, or retirement will tend to be a bit more impatient than others. People selling off property to buy groceries after their unemployment benefits expire will also tend to be more impatient.

                Certainly so.

                And as long as we maintain the system we have this will continue to happen. We have a system of haves and have nots. And the haves maintain position by imposing terms on the have nots. Not only that, but the way money is made leads to natural creation of money losers.

                All the money in existence exists at interest. So everyone on earth owes more money than they have. But the only way to pay off is to make more money (at interest again).

                • 1 vote
                #8.11 - Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:13 PM EST
                Reply
                deeman

                Congress, you can't run your lives right; how do you expect to run mine? I mean you guys are a bunch of lobby driven lawyers with short-sighted blinders on and with a blatant track record of screwing the economy and protecting special interests.

                I blame the fall of the auto, shipping, and airline industries on you guys. I blame the wastefulness of our tax system on you guys. I blame the lack of tort reform on you guys. I blame any entitlements that squelch work ethic and responsibility on you guys. I blame...well, the day isn't long enough, my friend. I'll give the other bloggers a chance to speak.

                And if you get tired, Congress, of our tag-teaming, step out of the ring. It's rumble time. Just ask McCain.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#9 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:14 AM EST
                Shawn [a.k.a. "Shadow"]

                The Labor Department said the number of new jobless claims fell to a 452,000 last week, down 28,000 from the previous week, on a seasonally adjusted basis. That's a better performance than the decline to 470,000 that economists had expected.

                Read the above paragraph a few times until it sinks in why this is published as "good news"...

                So let's say I'm an economist and I say next week a million people will file new jobless claims, then the news would read, "New jobless claims fell 50% on estimates this week".

                It's all in the wording.

                If they wanted a negative report, they could have titled it, "Close to ANOTHER half million American citizens out of work just before Christmas" but that would have been too dismal.

                The power of wording is absolutely amazing...

                • 2 votes
                Reply#10 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:40 AM EST
                Nicey-1026620

                Read the above paragraph a few times until it sinks in why this is published as "good news"...

                So let's say I'm an economist and I say next week a million people will file new jobless claims, then the news would read, "New jobless claims fell 50% on estimates this week".

                It's all in the wording.

                If they wanted a negative report, they could have titled it, "Close to ANOTHER half million American citizens out of work just before Christmas" but that would have been too dismal.

                The power of wording is absolutely amazing...

                It has nothing to do with any of that.

                When initial unemployment claims were rising significantly...it was reported that they were rising.

                People like you amaze me. You act like they haven't been reporting initial unemployment claims for years and years. You always think some conspiracy is going on...It's data.

                Why don't you bother reading it?

                http://www.briefing.com/Investor/Public/Calendars/EconomicReleases/claims.htm

                What's being reported is the number is decreasing which is good. What other interpretation could there be?

                Initial unemployment claims go up a lot...it's bad. They go down...it's good.

                The MA has dropped for 16 straight weeks...what else would you call it but a trend that's better than when everyone under the sun was getting fired.

                Look at the data. During the 90s, even at the height of economic expansion, the lowest the number got was around 275,000 initial claims. Consider our economy and workforce are larger, and during the 2000s expansion, the lowest number was around 325,000 on average.

                • 2 votes
                #10.1 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:32 AM EST
                jaker023

                Nicey is right, everything is relative, and you have to look at it from a trending/historical perspective. right now, folks are looking for any type of leading indicator that the economy is turning around - unemployment decreasing is one of them.

                however, the main issue here is that the still unemployed folks will continue to not believe it until they actually get a job.

                makes me feel bad for having 2 different job offers at once a few months ago while still being employed, even turning down a gov't job.

                • 1 vote
                #10.2 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:34 PM EST
                Reply
                jiggs-502598

                It seems to me that everyone in the chain, from those reporting statistics for the government to those reporting jobs saved because of stimulus funds are manipulating the numbers to their own benefit. This is not something that should be unexpected because they all want approval. The government wants to be seen as successful in their job saving efforts, and businesses want to be seen that way too. The only people who cannot put on a pseudo appearance of success are the unemployed, who, putting up with some smart mouth saying that they make no effort to get one of those imaginary stimulus jobs, and who are labeled as lazy by those who receive stimulus funds and deceitfully report their employment statistics. Yes, there is no way to put on a happy smile when you are on the outs, the best that can manage is a cynical grin, if that. So, save all the "get off your butt" comments, they fall on deaf and exhausted ears usually.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#11 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:31 AM EST
                Nicey-1026620

                stimulus funds are manipulating the numbers to their own benefit.

                Jesus Fing Christ...

                Why even comment on economics if you are incapable of just looking at stuff and objectively interpreting the information?

                You think the "initial unemployment claims" report just started when this administration came to power?

                http://www.briefing.com/Investor/Public/Calendars/EconomicReleases/claims.htm

                They've reported this number for decades. Let me guess...see that huge spike on the end. I bet they were lying then too for their benefit.

                "Yeah guys, let's report 675,000 people filed claims. That will have an awesome benefit to us." March 2009.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#12 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:36 AM EST
                jbird

                There is no one left to layoff, and those goods orders were due to the holiday season. Therefore this headline is false hope. We will slip back to lower numbers after the new year.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#13 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:54 AM EST
                Nicey-1026620

                There is no one left to layoff, and those goods orders were due to the holiday season. Therefore this headline is false hope. We will slip back to lower numbers after the new year.

                ...So last season, when those orders were in the pits it was because of??

                It is true. That mass layoffs have stopped and that has greatly reduced initial unemployment claims. But if demand was still contracting...those layoffs would not have stopped.

                You can absolutely fire everyone in a business. It's called bankruptcy. Unemployment in the depression didn't just stop rising when there was "no one" left to fire.

                If GDP is as strong as they are predicting for Q4, I wouldn't be surprised if it was less in Q1 2010. But I'm doubting Q1 will show contraction of any kind.

                • 1 vote
                #13.1 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:05 PM EST
                Reply
                PresObamaforeveramen

                Mr. President and Commander in Chief Obama,

                You have America on the correct path. In short order your objective is being met. Main Street America is better served with your outstanding leadership. Merry Christmas Mr. President. To you and yours ( 1st Lady Michelle) and both your young beautiful daughters; have the best of Christmas's.

                  Reply#14 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:10 PM EST
                  Britlassy

                  Mr. President and Commander in Chief Obama,

                  You have America on the correct path. In short order your objective is being met. Main Street America is better served with your outstanding leadership. Merry Christmas Mr. President. To you and yours ( 1st Lady Michelle) and both your young beautiful daughters; have the best of Christmas's.

                  *Choked when I read this*

                  Isn't a single word of truth.... how befitting in comparison.

                  • 2 votes
                  #14.1 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:11 PM EST
                  Reply
                  Kiwi 1

                  To all American workers out of a job, I sincerely hope things improve for you after Christmas. I realize how tepid my sympathy must appear, but I sit here about to have Christmas dinner with my family and am thinking of my American allies struggling to make ends meet. I can only offer you this advice from my past struggles: Back yourself. Many of you will feel cornered and wonder how to get out of this bind. It may be that time to bite the bullet and start out on your own. You may have to risk it and buy some gear and just give it a go regardless of the consequences. If your a welder/steel fabricator and are out of work, try cold calling on various engineering companies as a one man contractor. You might be surprised. You will probably be as scared of failure as you've ever been. I was. That was 4 years ago. I've never looked back. I should have done it 10 years ago. If you are an accountant and are out of work, advertise as a small business accountant in the local paper. My sister did 6 years ago and she is doing very well for herself indeed. Please don't think this Kiwi is lecturing us. I am not. To me, America is the mightiest empire the world has ever known; the new Rome. You didn't get there by a fluke.

                  You've got nothing to lose.

                    Reply#15 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:46 PM EST
                    River-239955

                    Very good advice, Kiwi. Taking the initiative for ourselves is the only way to move out of this. If we wait for the powers that be, we will be waiting forever. Time to step up and show them the way out the door.

                    • 1 vote
                    #15.1 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:50 PM EST
                    Behind My Screen

                    That is how to get back to a proper middle class. Companies screw over employees on benefits and salary... but if you work in the market and provide a contracting service to companies, they will pay you a fair market price for you skills.

                    • 3 votes
                    #15.2 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:47 PM EST
                    Britlassy

                    Thank you Kiwi...

                    I had a good friend that I lost track of in NZ,.. he came to Minnesota over Christmas.... and was in for a shock, when we had REAL winter, snow and ice...LOL!!!
                    I have a special tendre' for the NZers...

                    The best of the Holidays to you and yours.....( how hot is it there now?)

                    • 2 votes
                    #15.3 - Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:14 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Kiwi 1

                    25 degrees C and sunny Britlassy. Merry Christmas everyone.

                      Reply#16 - Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:34 AM EST
                      Bighorn

                      Another smoke screen AP article sponsored blathering by the state owned media.

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#17 - Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:04 AM EST
                      Kiwi 1

                      Hey, I'll give you another tip everyone. There's gonna be another share market crash this coming year and its gonna cause all sorts of heartache so do your best to prepare for this and be very, very careful with your money.

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#18 - Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:28 AM EST
                      Leave a Comment:
                      You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
                      You're in XHTML Mode. If you prefer, you can use Easy Mode instead.
                      (XHTML tags allowed - a,b,blockquote,br,code,dd,dl,dt,del,em,h2,h3,h4,i,ins,li,ol,p,pre,q,strong,ul)
                      Newsvine Privacy Statement
                      As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
                      FUN STUFF:
                      • Leaderboard |
                      • E-Mail Alerts |
                      • Top of the Vine |
                      • Newsvine Live |
                      • Newsvine Archives |
                      • The Greenhouse
                      COMPANY STUFF:
                      • Code of Honor |
                      • Company Info |
                      • Contact Us |
                      • Jobs |
                      • User Agreement |
                      • Privacy Policy |
                      • About our ads
                      LEGAL STUFF:
                      • © 2005-2012 Newsvine, Inc. |
                      • Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
                      • Newsvine is a property of msnbc.com