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Circumcise or not? Parents, you’re on your own

Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:23 AM EST
politics, health, kids-and-parenting, only-on-msnbc-com, parents, boys, brady, circumcision, erogenous, intactivists
msnbc.com News — Brian Alexander, msnbc.com - Only on msnbc.com

baby boy crying nursery Getty Images stock msnbc.com

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— Over just the past week, two reputable medical journals published articles on male circumcision and came to totally different conclusions, leaving parents of newborn boys with a stark realization they are on their own, without a consensus from the medical profession.

In the most recent issue of the Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine, Dr. Thomas Quinn of Johns Hopkins University and colleagues argue that the American Academy of Pediatrics ought to revise its circumcision policy which states that scientific evidence of potential medical benefits is “not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.” The essay’s authors want new guidelines to reflect recent and substantial evidence of circumcision’s health benefits.

Meanwhile, in the Annals of Family Medicine, Caryn Perera of the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons in Adelaide, Australia, and colleagues argue that “current evidence fails to recommend widespread neonatal circumcision.”

The two groups of authors came to their disparate conclusions after looking at the same set of evidence and making a judgment call — pretty much what new parents have been expected to do since routine male circumcision became a political issue more than 25 years ago.

As a result some parents find themselves wrestling with the decision. Posts on message boards visited by parents-to-be reflect the problem: “So much pressure from family friends to get it done, but my gut told me not to” wrote Kelly714 on the Café Mom Web site.

Collin Childers, a 25-year-old first-time father had his son Colton circumcised two days ago at Sharp Mary Birch Hospital for Women & Newborns in San Diego. Nobody gave him advice either way, he said, and Childers didn’t really do any research on the issue. He ultimately decided that since most men he knew, including his family members were all circumcised and since he’d heard that “it’s cleaner, it doesn’t allow bacteria to grow,” Colton would join the family tradition.

Family precedent is how many such decisions are made — like father, like son, said Dr. Jean Robertson, a pediatrician in Lancaster, Ohio.

“I would have to say that most infants whose fathers are circumcised end up getting circumcised,” she said. When parents are conflicted, she said, they don’t usually ask about health benefits, they ask about the pain of the surgery and most parents who get their newborn boys circumcised “desire it for the cosmetic effects.”

The lack of consensus leaves a wide opening for anti-circumcision campaigners. Just as actress-turned-autism-activist Jenny McCarthy’s scare mongering over childhood vaccines only makes the job of parents tougher, so-called “intactivists,” are trying to scare parents with wild hyperbole like equating circumcision to female genital mutilation — which is about like equating an appendectomy with an amputation.

In this age when parents agonize over pre-natal kindergarten enrollment, finding organic strained peas and which brand of $1,000-stroller will survive an impact with an Escalade, who needs foreskin angst? Especially when the issue isn’t really that complicated.

Circumcision has been around since before recorded history. Still, most American males were not circumcised routinely until the post-World War II era. Today about 80 percent of American males are circumcised, though rates vary by region.

As of 1999, the latest figures available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 81.4 percent of all baby boys in the Midwest were being circumcised, compared to 36.7 percent of baby boys in the West. On the East Coast, 65.4 percent of baby boys were circumcised.

The regional difference is at least partly explained by prevailing attitudes among ethnic groups, with Hispanic boys being much less likely to be circumcised.

Anti-circumcision movement
Starting in the late 1980s a no-circumcision movement began questioning the practice.

Anti-circumcision campaigners focus their objections on several issues. First, they accurately point out that the foreskin is rich in nerves and that cutting it away removes erogenous tissue.

Second, they argue that circumcision is usually medically unnecessary surgery and that it carries risks like bleeding or infection. Most men, they say, never have a problem with their foreskins and if parents are willing to hold a brief hygiene seminar — and the penis’s owner is willing to perform some simple routine maintenance — there is no reason why they should. Any possible benefits of circumcision are hypothetical at best, they say.

Finally, they argue that the decision doesn’t really belong to the parents — it belongs to the baby boy, and he’s in no position to conduct a risk/benefit analysis.

Those arguments are not necessarily wrong, just woefully incomplete.

Your newborn son’s sexual pleasure may not be much on your mind, but eventually it will be on his mind, so parents may fear that cutting away erogenous tissue might be a sin the young man will never forgive.

In an editorial accompanying the Pediatrics essay, Dr. Michael T. Brady of Ohio State University points out that studies on circumcision and sexual pleasure are all over the map, leaving parents once again without clear guidance on that point.

The possible complications cited by intactivists, Brady told me, are “exceedingly rare.” Circumcision does carry very small risks for bleeding and for infection, but, he said, these have been minimized. One big change in the last generation is that babies are now given pain medication before and sometimes after surgery. In the past, baby boys had to tough it out.

Medically necessary?
A more nuanced issue is whether circumcising newborns is “medically necessary” surgery. By the usual definitions it’s not. Circumcision does not cure anything and a foreskin isn’t a deformity. This is partly the basis for Perera’s objections.

She does, however, acknowledge the validity of new data on preventing sexually transmitted diseases, the same data that led Quinn and colleagues to lean the other way. These studies show that circumcision reduces the risks of HIV infection and other viral STDs like herpes and HPV, the human papilloma virus, some strains of which can cause penile and cervical cancer. There is some evidence that male circumcision reduces the risks of bacterial STDs, too.

Male circumcision also has other preventive benefits, too, such as reducing the risk of urinary tract infections, especially in boys younger than a year old.

Confusion arises because these are possible benefits, not a sure thing. As Brady told me, on one hand “your child may be one that is spared getting HIV,” but on the other hand, “he may never even have that risk” in the first place.

There are two other non-medical points that parents often consider, ones most doctors won’t mention because they aren’t politically correct considerations: convenience and looks. Circumcision can be more convenient for parents and for the boy. Second, with four out of five males in the U.S. circumcised, at some point after his first gym class you may have to take that non-circumcised chip off the old block to a museum to show him some Greek urns so he understands that he is perfectly normal.

Deciding to skip a circumcision can be a responsible choice. So can opting for one.

“It is important to give parents information,” Brady explained. “Then they can make the decision they think is in the best interest of the child and (doctors) should be supportive of that.”

So ignore the politics swirling around circumcision; they only obscure the issue. No parent needs what may be the first decision they make on behalf of their child to become a morality play.

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Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 ... 9
Nicky Tesla

Also, removing teeth early should cut down on dental hygiene issues later in life. And don't even get me started on those useless finger and toe nails...

  • 32 votes
#1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:40 AM EST
Peter Jacobs

Nature, in Her marvelous beauty and wisdom, created the foreskin. I am really comforted in knowing that we have doctors willing and able to improve on all Her failures. Arrogance at its best.

  • 35 votes
#1.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:55 AM EST
Arizona Travelers

Not trying to sound like a religious zealot ... but here is a very simple rule to follow: If God made it, and it isn't broken, LEAVE IT ALONE.

  • 28 votes
#1.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:05 AM EST
Amy-1026029

We did not circumcise my son when he was born 6 years ago. I didn't think that it needed to be done, and his pediatrician said that it wasn't needed. It seemed cruel. We've taught him to pull it down and clean real good underneath it. It was funny, b/c we didn't force it down, the doctor said that it would take a few years to come loose, and to let it on it's own, but anyway when he first figured out that it did, he played with himself all the time. He was mom look I've got another weenie lol.

  • 11 votes
#1.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:16 AM EST
TarrynMarrowDeleted
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

No more mutilations of babies!

  • 15 votes
#1.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:47 AM EST
Santino42

The lack of consensus leaves a wide opening for anti-circumcision campaigners. Just as actress-turned-autism-activist Jenny McCarthy’s scare mongering over childhood vaccines only makes the job of parents tougher, so-called “intactivists,” are trying to scare parents with wild hyperbole like equating circumcision to female genital mutilation — which is about like equating an appendectomy with an amputation.

You think the author of this article is pro-circumcision or what? There is no benefit to either female or male circumcision...the comparison is not a wild hyperbole.

And how is it "fear mongering", explaining to new parents that cosmetic surgery on your newborn infant is wrong.

I also love how this article fails to mention the global circumcision numbers.

The World Health Organisation estimates that as of 2006, 30% to 33% of males aged 15 or older (or approximately 665 million men or boys) are circumcised worldwide.

Link

So it's only an acceptable practice in the US? And we have the gall to criticize others old traditions...

  • 15 votes
#1.6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:52 AM EST
yvonnemari

Very nice article. It seems the author tried to stay unbiased. Very happy with that.

FWIW: DS was circ'd, our next DS will be circ'd, and I have no qualms with doing it. I was there, I saw the whole procedure. DS got meds before and after. Like millions before him, the procedure went well without a single complication. He even BF'd without issue.

You make the right decision for your family. We made the right one for ours.

  • 21 votes
#1.7 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:58 AM EST
boneclinkz

You make the right decision for your family. We made the right one for ours.

No you didn't. Just because you can rationalize it for the sake of your pride doesn't mean it was the right decision. Too many mothers and fathers do this, and it's stupid.

Come to terms with the fact that you ordered cosmetic surgery on a newborn for the sake of "tradition" or "aesthetics" or some other equally insipid reason. And you fully intend to do it again.

  • 15 votes
#1.8 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:01 AM EST
toponer

Leave it alone, that was the way it was supposed to be! that is the equivalent as female mutilation that is still being performed on young girls in Africa! that is just a barbaric thing to do, that's just my opinion. I am glad that my Mom did not put me through that hell when I was born. Can you imagine the first thing your parents do for you is cut your wee-wee off! LOL, no thanks Mom and Dad! I'm good, let me be!

  • 12 votes
#1.9 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:02 AM EST
Ritdog-908299

The level of ignorance here is unbelieveable. God didn't invent vaccinations either, so let's not get any of those ; better to be "natural" .

Let's see: reduced levels of HIV, STD's , infections, and cervical cancers for the boys partners later in life. A study was done some years ago by the American Urology Association, or something like that, and they found that ALL the 50,000 cases of penile cancer they studied, but for 3, were in uncircumcised males. Do we see a pattern here?

Flip the argument over : "Let's increase the levels of disease and infection by not circumcising; screw those kids". You'd be pilloried in the press and have the child welfare authorities taking your kids away.

Hey! DON'T wash your hands, let those germs grow! It's natural! Don't have your wisdom teeth pulled, it's natural! Pain let's your kid know he's alive!

I am so sick of people who have benefited from modern medicine, turning their backs on the advances of medicine when it comes to their kids. It's just evil...stupid and evil.

  • 34 votes
#1.10 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:04 AM EST
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

Let's see: reduced levels of HIV, STD's , infections, and cervical cancers for the boys partners later in life. A study was done some years ago by the American Urology Association, or something like that, and they found that ALL the 50,000 cases of penile cancer they studied, but for 3, were in uncircumcised males. Do we see a pattern here?

Can you post the link please.

  • 7 votes
#1.11 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:07 AM EST
yvonnemari

Santino, first the article was dead right about trying to compare female circ'ing to male. First female circ is NEVER done (unless surgically required in a hospital setting) with anesthesia, it removes FAR more of female sexual feeling than male circ'ing, and it involves an extremely high level of infection post procedure. The one thing you are absolutely correct on is that no one asks the practically adult female (as opposed to a 2 day old baby; hopefully I shouldn't have to explain the MAJOR difference in consent on that score) whether or not she wants it.

These two similarly named procedures have NOTHING in common and is more than disingenuous to even elude that they do.

Second, you are right about the CURRENT rate of circ'ing in Africa. That is exactly why the WHO endorsed routine circ'ing going forward. Obviously it will take some time to increase those numbers, but the studies are VERY clear that circ'ing inhibits the transmission of STDs.

This is NOT just an american thing. Yes we do do this procedure more than others but again, you are talking about a moment in time, and trying to base your whole case on that. As adoption of circ'ing becomes more prevalent you will see those numbers change.

Knock it off. All you did, was prove the author right (so-called “intactivists,” are trying to scare parents with wild hyperbole).

  • 10 votes
#1.12 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:08 AM EST
yvonnemari

You make the right decision for your family. We made the right one for ours.

No you didn't. Just because you can rationalize it for the sake of your pride doesn't mean it was the right decision. Too many mothers and fathers do this, and it's stupid.

Come to terms with the fact that you ordered cosmetic surgery on a newborn for the sake of "tradition" or "aesthetics" or some other equally insipid reason. And you fully intend to do it again.

I chose for a variety of reason, but hey if it pisses you off to believe this dribble then I feel pretty satisfied with that. Sounds like a good enough reason to add to the list of all the other reasons I chose.

My family, my decision, period. B-BYE.

  • 14 votes
#1.13 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:10 AM EST
toponer

Let's see: reduced levels of HIV, STD's , infections, and cervical cancers for the boys partners later in life. A study was done some years ago by the American Urology Association, or something like that, and they found that ALL the 50,000 cases of penile cancer they studied, but for 3, were in uncircumcised males. Do we see a pattern here?

Or not!

I am so sick of people who have benefited from modern medicine, turning their backs on the advances of medicine when it comes to their kids. It's just evil...stupid and evil.

Evil is mutilating a babies penis because of religious beliefs, that's evil! Teaching your child good hygiene and educating him properly is more humane than chopping his wee-wee off, don't you agree?

  • 14 votes
#1.14 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:15 AM EST
TL-770512

yvonnemari: what is a DS? and what is getting BF'd?? Very confused over here.

  • 5 votes
#1.15 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:17 AM EST
Santino42

Santino, first the article was dead right about trying to compare female circ'ing to male.

It didn't...did you read the article?

Second, you are right about the CURRENT rate of circ'ing in Africa.

Don't have unprotected sex and you will lessen your chance of contracting an STD. Look at the number of circumcised men in Europe....c'mon are you serious?

As adoption of circ'ing becomes more prevalent you will see those numbers change.

It would seem you are in the minority here...nice try. Enjoy supporting genital mutilation for the sake of aesthetics.

  • 3 votes
#1.16 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:19 AM EST
Damu Dame

Ah America! Do what YOU want to do for your family and for those who dont like it....though...just because its not a rule or tradition in your home doesnt mean its wrong for someone else to believe its right. It just isnt a part of YOUR home.....

NEXT issue please!

  • 8 votes
#1.17 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:21 AM EST
Keyaira14

Actually technically it is a wide hyperbole. Why? Because circumcision would be akin to removing only the skin protecting the clitoris, while Female genital mutilation would be equal to either cutting the gland off entirely or mutilating it beyong recognition (by use of acid or other such wonderful things)

  • 12 votes
#1.18 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:22 AM EST
boneclinkz

I chose for a variety of reason, but hey if it pisses you off to believe this dribble then I feel pretty satisfied with that. Sounds like a good enough reason to add to the list of all the other reasons I chose.

Your reasons are all invalid. But don't let that slow you down, mom!

My family, my decision, period. B-BYE.

True, albeit unfortunate for them. :)

  • 7 votes
#1.19 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:24 AM EST
yvonnemari

yvonnemari: what is a DS? and what is getting BF'd?? Very confused over here.

DS = Darling or Dear Son

BF = breastfeeding

One of the so-called side effects of circ'ing that gets repeated is that circ'd babies don't latch as well for breastfeeding. It is a load of crap. There isn't a single, reputable, peer-reviewed study that has ever found that insinuation to be true.

HTH = hope that helps!

  • 6 votes
#1.20 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:25 AM EST
yvonnemari

I chose for a variety of reason, but hey if it pisses you off to believe this dribble then I feel pretty satisfied with that. Sounds like a good enough reason to add to the list of all the other reasons I chose.

Your reasons are all invalid. But don't let that slow you down, mom!

My family, my decision, period. B-BYE.

True, albeit unfortunate for them. :)

Since you have never actually asked what they (my reasons) are, I find it very hard to believe you have any factual basis to make that statement.

You are welcome to pray for my kids if you so desire. I won't stop you.

  • 7 votes
#1.21 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:28 AM EST
Big Al-369306

The circumcision penis looks normal8) non clipped looks like an ant eater & the ladies in my office told me to type that lol..

  • 17 votes
#1.22 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:29 AM EST
TL-770512

Never heard that about breastfeeding...

Yes, that helps!

  • 2 votes
#1.23 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:30 AM EST
yvonnemari

Actually technically it is a wide hyperbole. Why? Because circumcision would be akin to removing only the skin protecting the clitoris, while Female genital mutilation would be equal to either cutting the gland off entirely or mutilating it beyong recognition (by use of acid or other such wonderful things)

OMG...Thank you!!! Anatomy 101, people.

  • 3 votes
#1.24 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:30 AM EST
yvonnemari

Santino, first the article was dead right about trying to compare female circ'ing to male.

It didn't...did you read the article?

Umm...yeah I did, but apparently you didn't. Your own quote from that article that I referenced in my response is pretty clear about making that comparison and how it is bogus. I'm not too sure what you thought you were pointing out here.

It would seem you are in the minority here...nice try. Enjoy supporting genital mutilation for the sake of aesthetics.

Since I never said that, I am sure you are referring to someone else.

And quite honestly, those who do the research (and decide to circ) do not need this superficial reason to circ.

But hey, I will repeat what I have said from the start. It is your family and you get to decide. Far be it for me to tell anyone that aesthetics isn't a good enough reason. Doesn't cut it for me, but hey, it really is none of my business what other parents deem as appropriate for their kids (and let me state the obvious, that does not include abuse and no I do not [and neither does the law] consider circ'ing to be abuse, but you can certainly argue that point if you'd like; you'll be doing it alone however. I won't participate in such an endeavor).

  • 3 votes
#1.25 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:37 AM EST
alkimija

Circumcision is a form of genital mutilation. Unless there is an infection or other condition necessitating the removal of the foreskin, the procedure is "cosmetic surgery" and should be prohibited.

Children aren't the possessions of their parents. Parents do not own their children. Parents are the guardians of their children.

If circumcision is Ok, what about other cosmetic surgery? Would it be Ok to change the shape of your kid's nose or ears if you didn't like it? How about bleaching or dying their skin if you didn't like their skin colour? What if a parent were a huge fan of the Simpsons and wanted to remove one finger and toe from each hand and foot so that their kid would have only four fingers and toes just like the cartoon characters?

It sounds extreme, but those are all the same things as removing the foreskin merely because the parents wish it to be removed.

Furthermore, the argument that circumcision prevents/lowers the transmission of STDs is not valid for children, unless those advancing this argument is also arguing for sexual relations with children.

The removal of the foreskin (and the removal and/or alteration of any body part, unless there is a pressing medical necessity) should only be the choice of the individual when they become an adult.

Performing unnecessary surgeries - especially genital mutilation - upon a minor who cannot consent to any such surgical procedure should be considered to be a criminal act and should be punished severely under the law, imho.

  • 12 votes
#1.26 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:37 AM EST
robynlewisTX.

The foreskin was put there for a reason, people!

Ask any man, and I'm sure he'll tell you that wearing a condom is preferable to genital mutilation.

  • 6 votes
#1.27 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:07 PM EST
toponer

I couldn't agree more, you are 100% correct on all points! especially on the legality of this barbaric act!

  • 4 votes
#1.28 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:10 PM EST
Natalia-996117

I have been with a man that is uncircumsized and trust me -- one of the ugliest sights!!!!!

My husband is circumsized and his "johnson" is a far better thing to look at.

But, there is medical proof that uncircumsized men have the higher risk of infecting their female partners with the HPV, the leading cause of cervical cancer. Get the nic done early, so there is less pain to remember. Why do men always expect the women to take the precaution against disease? Why do teen girls, who are not yet sexually active may be forced to take the HPV vaccine and risk the severe complications from the vaccine, have to be the only ones to take the responsibility to prevent cervical cancer?

So, my actual question to all you men that want to keep your foreskin -- is your sexual vanity and sexual satisfaction worth more than the health and life of your partner?

For those quoting God giving them foreskin, so they should be allowed to keep it. Then God, and your religion, is once again punsihing women for having sex by giving them the higher risk of cervical cancer? Wow, what a compassionate God you believe in!!!

  • 15 votes
#1.29 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:12 PM EST
boneclinkz

So, my actual question to all you men that want to keep your foreskin -- is your sexual vanity and sexual satisfaction worth more than the health and life of your partner?

That was an impressive feat of logic.

  • 2 votes
#1.30 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:18 PM EST
Natalia-996117

Also, I know I called my husband's penis his "johnson" but really pee-pee and weenie?

As for the mother who is proud that her son told her he has another penis, yuck!!!!!! That is not cute, that is sad - a double penis. I hope her son grows up to be good-looking.

Men - it is a tiny bit of foreskin being cut off at birth, not the whole entire penis. Get a grip!! Knowing what I know now, I would never ever have sex with an uncircumsized man. My safety and health is more important than a man's needs -- and if the man doesn't feel the same way then I don't need that selfish immature man in my life.

  • 10 votes
#1.31 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:23 PM EST
Natalia-996117

Bones, many men claim they "feel more" with their foreskin and by not wearing a condom during sex. So there is nothing wrong with my logic!

  • 4 votes
#1.32 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:24 PM EST
cantakenomore

Blah blah blah...

For all the women out there...I'll tell you like I've been told by women regarding child birth. If you haven't experienced it, you can't know. Therefore, you're excused. Now, it happened to me and you know what? I can't remember a damn thing about it. I don't remember crying, bleeding, or anything else about it. I am not mentally scarred for life and do not suffer from penis envy. It's really not that big of a deal.

  • 17 votes
#1.33 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:25 PM EST
toponer

A woman's vagina doesn't win any beauty contest neither, and I as a man don't want to see any baby girls go through this kind of torture so my eyes can be pleasured as well ass my sexual needs, when they become a woman!

  • 8 votes
#1.34 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:26 PM EST
Natalia-996117

But, there is no medical evidence that the clitoris causes any types of cancer. The facts are that many more women, who have had uncircumsized sexual partners are at a higher risk of developing HPV.

And young pre-sexually active teenage girls are being forced to take the HPV vaccine, whose LONG-TERM risks have not been determined. The risks may not outweigh the benefits. So, if a simple painless surgical procedure, when done at birth, is a better answer, then what is the problem? Male vanity?

Once again, men telling women what to do with their bodies. I won't nip my foreskin to protect you against cervical cancer, but you can take an untested vaccince without fully knowing the long term effects and place your health at risk. Whatta guy!!!

  • 8 votes
#1.35 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:34 PM EST
KyEngineer

The problem I have is that these studies that showed a reduction in STDs were all done in Africa, IIRC. In Africa, there is a stigma that using a condom is bad. This is one of the leading contributors to the spread of STDs and HIV in Africa. This is not the case in the US or Europe where condom usage is the norm.

A true, scientific study must be repeatable and reproducible - meaning that a study performed by a different set of researchers in a different environment must come to the same conclusion - in order to be considered conclusive. It's been a strong point of dissension that this same study would NOT yield the same conclusions in an environment where there is already strong support for condom usage...for example in Europe or the US. Therefore, until this 'research' is reproducible elsewhere, there is no proof that circ'ing males has any medical benefit.

Personally, I find it abhorrent and it is only marginally different from genital mutilation. Cosmetic surgery on a non-consenting newborn should be banned altogether. If we still want to allow circ'ing then allow the boy grow up and decide for himself.

  • 6 votes
#1.36 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:38 PM EST
Natalia-996117

toper - remember the movie, Fried Green Tomatoes, and the Kathy Bates character was invited to a party to at her vagina and she tells her friend - why would any woman what to look at her own vagina. LOL

If you admit, the sexual organs are not really gorgeous things to gaze upon. But they were made to serve a purpose. Some many different purposes!!!! LOL

  • 4 votes
#1.37 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:39 PM EST
RV in GB#1

"She does, however, acknowledge the validity of new data on preventing sexually transmitted diseases, the same data that led Quinn and colleagues to lean the other way. These studies show that circumcision reduces the risks of HIV infection and other viral STDs like herpes and HPV, the human papilloma virus, some strains of which can cause penile and cervical cancer. There is some evidence that male circumcision reduces the risks of bacterial STDs, too." - And this was coming from someone AGAINST circumcision.

Sorry, but there are valid reasons to circumcise. Stop equating it to "genital mutilation" because it is not even close to the same thing.

Ultimately YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION. It is a PERSONAL CHOICE for parents.

  • 9 votes
#1.38 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:40 PM EST
toponer

So, if a simple painless surgical procedure, when done at birth, is a better answer, then what is the problem? Male vanity?

I think you might have some valid points, but painless is not one of them. Take a look at the baby picture on the top of the page, and tell me that he is not in terrible pain!

  • 3 votes
#1.39 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:44 PM EST
Natalia-996117

KE - so you live in a part of the US that does not have any STD, HIV, AIDS? Wow, where in the US do you live, so the rest of us can move there.

The problem with your logic, is that your partners would be totally honest and upfront with you about who and how many sex partners they have had. In the heat of the moment, do you actually stop and say "Wait, you don't have an STD or HIV?" or "I'm your first." And even if you are married, given the divorce rate in the US, you would completely trust your partner?

The fact remains is that cervical cancer is up in the US and this cancer is on the rise because women are having sex earlier and with multiple partners, many who are not circumsized.

  • 6 votes
#1.40 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:45 PM EST
Santino42

Sorry, but there are valid reasons to circumcise. Stop equating it to "genital mutilation" because it is not even close to the same thing.

Genital mutilation, cosmetic surgery...you take your pick.

If you don't wear a condom then who cares if you circumcised or not...your chances of catching an STD just skyrocketed.

So is everyone who condones genital mutilation/cosmetic surgery for infant boys also promoting unprotected sex? I would certainly hope not.

  • 3 votes
#1.41 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:51 PM EST
Natalia-996117

toper - the caption states the photo is a "stock photo" which could mean that the baby was also hungry or just wanted to be held. This photo was picked for effect -- because the reporter states his preference to be anti-circumcision.

  • 6 votes
#1.42 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:52 PM EST
1sloPR5

This article was interesting, since the tone was that of to each is own. Sadly people on the vine rather spew their ideas and anyone who disagrees with it is bad! Parents take full responsibility of the decision they make. As a cut male(actually a partial i have ample skin left) and my partner is uncut at first I was kinda P'd off at my parents for having me cut, but you know what...at the end of the day it works like every other guys penis out there. That is what people are missing...when your son is of age and he can get off and enjoy himself while doing so, great! Lets not make an issue out of something as trivial as cut V uncut there is enough of endless banter like this all over the web, it does get very redundant.

  • 3 votes
#1.43 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:52 PM EST
Schroedingers Cat

alkimija..Precisely!! I cannot imagine going through life with that many bundles of sensitive nerve endings exposed constantly. It is difficult to bear it even for a few moments except during sexual activity. I realize that with time a young man who is mutilated in this fashion will develop an immunity to sensitivity which it would seem logical to me should ultimately decrease pleasure. I as my brothers were never circumcised and we have control over our sexual feelings but my cousin who was circumcised would masturbate as a young adult and even had strange sexual behavior towards his sister which I was appalled by and informed his parents of. There is no reason for circumcision not even for hygienic purposes! If a parent teaches a child properly then the problem is eliminated, I find the studies that show the increase of STD's among un mutilated males sketchy and incomplete at best. I am 51 and have been sexually active since I was 18 and have NEVER had this problem even in light of the fact that I never have used condoms. My wife would complain that I was not mutilated for some stupid reason, but in response I asked her what her favorite kind of car was.she replied a convertible..to which I further asked what make and model?...she replied Mustang Convertible...to which I replied by pointing at my naughty bits and stated Here ya' go honey! A stud Mustang Convertible!...But you are NOT painting it Green!!!

  • 3 votes
#1.44 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:59 PM EST
icstars-1

Natalia, there is no basis on the STD argument since condoms are readily available in the U.S. Everyone knows that if you don't use a condom, you risk an STD.

  • 5 votes
#1.45 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:02 PM EST
0ddity

We didn't circumcise my 8 month old son, for a couple reasons. First, the origin of the practice was as a covenant to god by the Jews. Any supposed medical benefits it imparts are just justifications to keep adding that $50 on to your hospital bill. The other reason, was when my son is old enough, and he can look at the issues for himself, he can decide either to get circumcised or not. We feel the same way about religion, it's something that shouldn't be forced onto kids when they're too young to understand, but when old enough and educated on all religions, instead of indoctrinated into just one, can make that choice themselves.

  • 5 votes
#1.46 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:03 PM EST
boneclinkz

But, there is no medical evidence that the clitoris causes any types of cancer. The facts are that many more women, who have had uncircumsized sexual partners are at a higher risk of developing HPV.

And young pre-sexually active teenage girls are being forced to take the HPV vaccine, whose LONG-TERM risks have not been determined. The risks may not outweigh the benefits. So, if a simple painless surgical procedure, when done at birth, is a better answer, then what is the problem? Male vanity?

Once again, men telling women what to do with their bodies. I won't nip my foreskin to protect you against cervical cancer, but you can take an untested vaccince without fully knowing the long term effects and place your health at risk. Whatta guy!!!

Your entire argument is based on a false dilemma. You act as if every man or woman is going to be forced into a choice to become circumcised or take the HPV vaccine. It's a transparent attempt at rationalization, as there are a multitude of people with healthy sexual practices who don't worry about HPV and never had to make either of those choices.

I have to admit though, the hilarious pseudo-feminist outrage in your posts is well done. Additionally, your nonchalant dismissal of the impact of an irreversible medical procedure contrasts well with your vehement championing of the potential dangers of a new vaccine.

  • 3 votes
#1.47 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:12 PM EST
RuthAnn-595820

Actually technically it is a wide hyperbole. Why? Because circumcision would be akin to removing only the skin protecting the clitoris, while Female genital mutilation would be equal to either cutting the gland off entirely or mutilating it beyong recognition (by use of acid or other such wonderful things)

OMG...Thank you!!! Anatomy 101, people.

LOL. I cannot imagine an Anat 101 class getting this specific:

Class: tomorrow we will discuss the covering of the clitoris and its

likeness to the foreskin

I'm trying to decide if that kind of minutia would get more students to sign up for the class or less!

(gotta save the subject for at least Anatomy 105)

  • 1 vote
#1.48 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:49 PM EST
Santino42

Your own quote from that article that I referenced in my response is pretty clear about making that comparison and how it is bogus.

Nope your response was not clear.

Santino, first the article was dead right about trying to compare female circ'ing to male.

The article stated that there should be no comparison between female genital mutilation and male circumcision.

are trying to scare parents with wild hyperbole like equating circumcision to female genital mutilation — which is about like equating an appendectomy with an amputation.

  • 2 votes
#1.49 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:12 PM EST
KyEngineer

Natalia, the point of my post was not to state that HPV, HIV or other STDs are not in the US. The point of my post was that the environment these studies were done in, were not similiar to the typical environment in the West. Have you ever been to Africa Natalia? My husband is from South Africa, and he has told me plenty about the African continent. Probably the number one reasons that STDs are so widespread in that continent is because men refuse to wear condoms. They consider condoms abhorrent and that any real man will not wear one (not to mention they aren't always readily available as they are here). How many of these men, circ'ed or not, would get/pass an STD just because of this fact alone?

There is obviously not the same culture here in the US regarding condoms. So, one could reasonably conclude, given widespread use of condoms here, it is condom usage that will drastically reduce the spread of STDs, not circ'ing men, and that any study reproduced here would not yield the same results.

And I don't know about some of you out there, but I never had unprotected sex with anyone but my husband. I don't care what my boyfriend told me. It was either he wore a condom or he didn't get laid. That is what I did to protect myself, and any man or woman who cares about themselves would have the same attitude.

  • 1 vote
#1.50 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:36 PM EST
Unknown0080

I have to wonder how many men who say a child does not need to be circumcised are themselves uncircumcised. As for the women, I wonder how many of their husbands are uncircumcised. All my sons were circumcised when they were babies, they only felt it for a few days. My husband is circumcised. Personally I find any uncircumcised penis revolting. I always have. I see it as cleanliness more than anything else, you know, clean cut, shaved, and whatnot. I cannot stand seeing skin just 'hanging' there. But I had the procedure done on my kids while they were babies just because they get over it quicker. Also, if one were to just look up statistics, more women prefer it their men to be cut. I have to wonder how this is news by the way....

  • 4 votes
#1.51 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:56 PM EST
Backhouse

Consider: Public outcry against female circumcision in Third World countries is accepted and loud.

Male or female, this is a dangerous, unnecessary and barbaric cultural practice. Not only this, a defenceless newly-born just out of the womb has sensibilities and vulnerability beyond words.

And even if buried in baby's early memory, the scar from this aggressive act is forever. It is not gone.
Let's close this cruel chapter in human history and move on.

  • 2 votes
#1.52 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:01 PM EST
ShowMeMan

Every time "Man Kind" think they know better we find out different. Aint broke don't fix it. STD are not more likely. The majority of the PLANET do not circumcise. I was, but neither of my boys are.

  • 2 votes
#1.53 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:25 PM EST
JLL-440136

But, there is no medical evidence that the clitoris causes any types of cancer.

Actually you're wrong about that. Cancer of the vulva exists, and is a form of skin cancer, just like penile cancer is:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/cri/content/cri_2_4_1x_what_is_vulvar_cancer_45.asp

Just like penile cancer, it is exceedingly rare, highly treatable, and no medical organization recommends circumcision as a measure to prevent it. Would you want an infant daughter's vulva cut to reduce the possibility of this cancer? If not, why would you want that for an infant son?

    #1.54 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:17 PM EST
    boneclinkz

    I have to wonder how many men who say a child does not need to be circumcised are themselves uncircumcised. As for the women, I wonder how many of their husbands are uncircumcised. All my sons were circumcised when they were babies, they only felt it for a few days. My husband is circumcised. Personally I find any uncircumcised penis revolting. I always have. I see it as cleanliness more than anything else, you know, clean cut, shaved, and whatnot. I cannot stand seeing skin just 'hanging' there. But I had the procedure done on my kids while they were babies just because they get over it quicker. Also, if one were to just look up statistics, more women prefer it their men to be cut. I have to wonder how this is news by the way....

    I'm circumcised, but I would never allow it to be done to any of my children. I have found there to be absolutely no good justification for it whatsoever. You and your husband made the wrong decision for your children, just like my parents did. People make mistakes and it's not a real big deal. It's just annoying when people won't admit they made a mistake and instead try and rationalize what they did with pathetic justifications.

    As for a woman's preference... Most men prefer women with large breasts. Are you totally okay with the notion that all women should get breast implants to appease the aesthetic tastes of men? Do you find that offensive?

    • 4 votes
    #1.55 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:30 PM EST
    RV in GB#1

    boneclinkz - "I'm circumcised, but I would never allow it to be done to any of my children. I have found there to be absolutely no good justification for it whatsoever. You and your husband made the wrong decision for your children, just like my parents did."

    You do not have the right to criticize someone for circumcising their children. If you chose not to have it done to your children, fine. Some people actually believe that the medical FACT that "circumcision reduces the risks of HIV infection and other viral STDs like herpes and HPV" is a GOOD reason to circumcise their children. This is NOT a "pathetic" justification.

    By the way, for everyone claiming that circumcision is irreversible, look up "foreskin restoration." It might not be a picnic, but it CAN BE REVERSED USING NON-SURGICAL METHODS.

    "Jim Bigelow, Ph.D., who has completed the restoration
    process, published The Joy of Uncircumcising in 1992. In
    it, he discusses surgical and an non-surgical techniques and
    an provides information and an an extensive list of related
    resources.

    In addition to networking organizations and books on
    the subject, there are now manufacturers designing
    and producing devices for the express purpose of helping men
    to restore their foreskins."

    • 3 votes
    #1.56 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:04 PM EST
    KyEngineer

    You do not have the right to criticize someone for circumcising their children. If you chose not to have it done to your children, fine. Some people actually believe that the medical FACT that "circumcision reduces the risks of HIV infection and other viral STDs like herpes and HPV" is a GOOD reason to circumcise their children. This is NOT a "pathetic" justification.

    Read my post above. Until the African study is repeated and reproduces the same results, it is not medical fact as yet. For all we know the reason why circ'ed men had less occurrences of STDs exposure was because African women wouldn't sleep with them (being circ'ed is not common at all in Africa). Until a new study, done in a society/culture where condom use is the norm like here in the US, there is still no medical proof that circ'ing newborns will reduce the spread of STDs.

    I, for one, question why this type of study was done in Africa? If the objective was to prove to people in the US (read up on who sponsored this particular study as well) that circ'ing boys was medically prudent, then why wasn't the same study performed here? I suspect it's because they know they won't get the same results in a society where people have more access to condoms and have better hygiene.

    • 1 vote
    #1.57 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:36 PM EST
    The Devil-1138528

    This mutilation should be stopped.

    • 2 votes
    #1.58 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:54 PM EST
    Meso-575799

    JLL,

    Just like penile cancer, it is exceedingly rare, highly treatable, and no medical organization recommends circumcision as a measure to prevent it.

    From the journal of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (2004):

    Results: Circumcision was associated with reduced risk for oncogenic, nononcogenic, and overall HPV. Regular condom use was associated with reduced risk for oncogenic and overall HPV.

    This study was done in Arizona.

    From the Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine (2010):

    Since 2005, however, 3 randomized trials have evaluated male circumcision for prevention of sexually transmitted infections. The trials found that circumcision decreases human immunodeficiency virus acquisition by 53% to 60%, herpes simplex virus type 2 acquisition by 28% to 34%, and human papillomavirus prevalence by 32% to 35% in men. Among female partners of circumcised men, bacterial vaginosis was reduced by 40%, and Trichomonas vaginalis infection was reduced by 48%. Genital ulcer disease was also reduced among males and their female partners.

    Everyone:

    Just go to PubMed.com, search for circumcision and read the articles for yourselves. Some of the full articles require subscription but many are freely available. If you really care, go to your local library, they often have these available for the public. Also, large universities (like U Washington) often have their libraries open to the public.

    • 3 votes
    #1.59 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:57 PM EST
    Ian Blokesworth

    yvonnemarie wrote "Far be it for me to tell anyone that aesthetics isn't a good enough reason. Doesn't cut it for me, but hey, it really is none of my business what other parents deem as appropriate for their kids"

    If I were to order the female equivalent circumcision - removal of clitoral hood - for my newborn daughter for the sake of reduction of clitoral smegma and because I like the way it looks, what would you think? Why is this procedure not covered under my insurance plan and not even available anywhere in the USA? I want it. It is my business.

    • 1 vote
    #1.60 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:29 PM EST
    Ian Blokesworth

    Natalia-996117

    And young pre-sexually active teenage girls are being forced to take the HPV vaccine, whose LONG-TERM risks have not been determined. The risks may not outweigh the benefits. "

    You assume that there are no risks in circumcision. Every year in the US, a handful male newborns die directly as a consequence of circumcision and another handful los their penis completely. That said, the only way to determine the long-term effectiveness of the HPV vaccine is to, well, wait a long time"

    "Once again, men telling women what to do with their bodies. I won't nip my foreskin"

    That reads more of women telling men what to do with their bodies. The US is the most circumcised nation in the Western world. Since the incidence of HPV and cervical cancer isn't markedly different from largely uncircumcised Canada, Japan, Australia, or the UK, circumcision isn't the answer to stopping the spread of HPV.

    • 3 votes
    #1.61 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:54 PM EST
    JLL-440136

    Meso-575799-

    I wasn't discussing HPV. The issue was whether or not the clitoris (and the rest of the external genetalia) of females could develop cancer, since Natalia stated they could not. Seemed strange to cut boys' genitals to prevent developing cancer, but not to cut girls' for the same reason.

    As for HPV, I'd be curious to know why the rates are practically the same for the UK, Canada, Australia, and the US despite the fact that the circumcision rate is so much higher in the US. Wouldn't the US have a lot less HPV and cancer is circumcision was so effective? There are considerable more effective and less invasive methods of preventing HPV. And since infants aren't regularly engaging in risking sexual behaviors, there's no urgency in getting them cut before they are old enough to have a say in it.

      #1.62 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:57 PM EST
      Meso-575799

      JLL,

      I think I must have included too much of your original quote. (I hate quoting half sentences.)

      and no medical organization recommends circumcision as a measure to prevent it.

      From the APAM article (full text requires subscription) from above:

      The AAP policy has a major impact on neonatal circumcision in the United States. This review evaluates the recent data that support revision of the AAP policy to fully reflect the evidence of long-term health benefits of male circumcision.

      Your question:

      Wouldn't the US have a lot less HPV and cancer is circumcision was so effective?

      1) Are the rates of circumcision evenly distributed throughout demographics?

      Rates of circumcision in the United States vary by ethnicity, ranging from 88% in white males, 73% in African American males, and 42% in Mexican American males.10 Circumcision is also highest among boys born to families of higher socioeconomic status, those with private insurance, and boys born in the Northeast or Midwest.

      2) Are rates of HPV infection in males evenly distributed?

      HPV prevalence varied on the basis of sampling, processing methods, and the anatomic site(s) or specimen(s) sampled. We included 15 publications reporting HPV seroprevalence. Rates of seropositivity depended on the population, HPV type, and methods used.

      3) Is there an HPV test for men?

      No.

      4) What is the specific strain of HPV in question? (Prevalence also varies by strain.)

      5) Let's not forget that we also need to control for level of sexual activity, age, screen efficacy and availability etc.

      the rates are practically the same for the UK, Canada, Australia, and the US

      As far as I know, the rates of HPV in general is something like 90% of the population. The question is not whether one has HPV, but will that particular strain of HPV develop into cancer.

      There are considerable more effective and less invasive methods of preventing HPV.

      Sure. But the vaccine is only approved for females.

      • 2 votes
      #1.63 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:13 PM EST
      Meso-575799

      Ian,

      Since the incidence of HPV and cervical cancer isn't markedly different from largely uncircumcised Canada, Japan, Australia, or the UK, circumcision isn't the answer to stopping the spread of HPV.

      Could you post your citations?

      For the record, most people will have HPV at some point in time in their lives. I mean, there are more than 100 types, but only 20 or so are considered 'high-risk'.

      Keep in mind that most HPV infections clear on their own without the individual being aware of initial infection. The problem is that sometimes, the HPV doesn't clear and instead develops into cancer.

      • 2 votes
      #1.64 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:19 PM EST
      JLL-440136

      Sure. But the vaccine is only approved for females.

      Actually, the HPV vaccine is approved for both males and females (at least it is in the US) as of the January 2010 update to the CDC recommendations:

      http://www.oncolink.org/resources/article.cfm?c=3&s=8&ss=23&Year=2010&Month=01&id=16619

      The question is not whether one has HPV, but will that particular strain of HPV develop into cancer.

      So are you saying that there are differences in cervical cancer rates in the US vs Canada, UK, etc etc? What are the numbers?



        #1.65 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:33 PM EST
        SWMG-1185398

        So we should all do it to our sons because it looks "normal"? ya know, I've known several people who have, like, a very small chin or pretty much no chin at all. Obviously a chin is normal, we should force everyone with abnormal body parts to go through unnecessary surgery so they can all look normal. While we're at it, lets put all the ugly people through plastic surgery procedures so they can all look the same as the "normal" people.

        This article was extremely biased. They might have tried to act unbiased but the author was very much pro circumcision.

        • 2 votes
        #1.66 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:56 PM EST
        Meso-575799

        JLL,

        Actually, the HPV vaccine is approved for both males and females

        Yey! Step in the right direction!

        So are you saying that there are differences in cervical cancer rates in the US vs Canada, UK, etc etc? What are the numbers?

        I skipped the explanation that cervical cancer is known to be caused by only a few types of HPV so the relationship overall HPV rate (which is hard to quantify due to the fact that most cases resolve on their own) isn't clear.

        BTW, my specialty is ovarian cancer so more detailed analysis I cannot give.

        At least for the USA I know that cervical cancer rates vary even by state and ethnicity.

        Source:

        USA (overall) - 5 in 100,000

        UK - 8.2 in 100,000

        Canada - 7.3 in 100,000.

        Recall that ethnicity plays a role. From above I stated that Mexican-Americans are among the least circumcised. The rate of cervical cancer among Latino women in the US is 16.8/100,000. (Of course, it's not like people only have sex within racial groups but you get the idea.)

        • 3 votes
        #1.67 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:10 PM EST
        dkaz

        Everything ON our bodies are there for a reason. Everything IN our bodies are there for a reason.

        Circumcision has it's pros and cons. But one thing is for sure.

        An uncircumcised penis sure is ugly. Enter at your own risk.

        • 3 votes
        #1.68 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:27 PM EST
        Ritdog-908299

        Reference post 1.10 from Zoilus- am still looking for the 50,000 info, but found this too:

        From the NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH
        :http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15825185

        "However, 3 factors that did not increase the risk for in situ cancer proved significant risk factors for invasive penile cancer: lack of circumcision during childhood, phimosis and cigarette smoking. The high percentage of HPV DNA-positive tumors in our study is consistent with a strong association between HPV infection and the development of penile cancer regardless of circumcision status. Circumcision in early childhood may help prevent penile cancer by eliminating phimosis, a significant risk factor for the disease.

        HPV DNA was detected in 79.8% of tumor specimens, and 69.1% of tumors were HPV16-positive. The proportion of HPV DNA-positive tumors did not vary by any risk factors evaluated.

        (c) 2005 Wiley-Liss, Inc."

        And this from the NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE:

        http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/346/15/1105

        "Results Penile HPV was detected in 166 of the 847 uncircumcised men (19.6 percent) and in 16 of the 292 circumcised men (5.5 percent). After adjustment for age at first intercourse, lifetime number of sexual partners, and other potential confounders, circumcised men were less likely than uncircumcised men to have HPV infection (odds ratio, 0.37; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.16 to 0.85). Monogamous women whose male partners had six or more sexual partners and were circumcised had a lower risk of cervical cancer than women whose partners were uncircumcised (adjusted odds ratio, 0.42; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.23 to 0.79). Results were similar in the subgroup of men in whom circumcision was confirmed by medical examination.

        Conclusions Male circumcision is associated with a reduced risk of penile HPV infection and, in the case of men with a history of multiple sexual partners, a reduced risk of cervical cancer in their current female partners."

        There is something called PHIMOSIS which circumcision helps prevent also, which is an indicator of penile cancer also......

        Smoking causes increrased rates of penile cancer too, though I didn't know THAT was possible! Must take good bladder control!! :)

        • 2 votes
        #1.69 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:34 PM EST
        Santino42

        Recall that ethnicity plays a role. From above I stated that Mexican-Americans are among the least circumcised.

        None of the males in my family line are or have been circumcised and there are no cases of cervical cance in the females....hmmmm....interesting.

        Ovarian cancer certainly isn't cervical cancer that's for sure.

          #1.70 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:49 PM EST
          boneclinkz

          You do not have the right to criticize someone for circumcising their children.

          Clearly we disagree. I reserve the right to criticize someone for making ANY poor decision.

            #1.71 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:18 PM EST
            JLL-440136

            The biggest problem with that NEJM article though is that most husband and wife pairs had different strains of HPV, so I'm not sure what you can draw from that in regard to transmission from an uncircumcised husband to wife. That, and the fact that they pooled data from countries with different medical access, ethnic groups, etc. Has anyone performed a case-controlled study looking at cervical cancer in the US?

            Br J Cancer. 2002 Mar 4;86(5):705-11.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11875730?dopt=Abstract

            Four-hundred-forty-five husbands of women with invasive cervical carcinoma, 165 of women with in situ cervical cancer, and 717 of control women (age range 19-82 years) were interviewed and a sample of exfoliated cells from the penis obtained in seven case-control studies conducted by the International Agency for Research on Cancer. The characteristics of human papillomavirus-positive and human papillomavirus-negative husbands were compared using odds ratios and 95% confidence intervals. Thirteen per cent of the husbands of control women, 18% of the husbands of women with invasive cervical carcinoma, and 21% of the husbands of in situ cervical carcinoma women were positive for penile human papillomavirus DNA. Human papillomavirus 16 was detected in 45 husbands, human papillomavirus 18, 31 or 33 in 19, and human papillomavirus 6/11 in 6, but the majority of human papillomavirus infection (158) was with other or unspecified human papillomavirus types. The same human papillomavirus type was seldom identified in both husband and wife. The strongest variation in penile human papillomavirus infection was by country, with percentages among the husbands of control women ranging between 3% in Spain and 39% in Brazil. Having had over 50 lifetime sexual partners, compared with only one, was associated with an odds ratio of 2.3. Copyright 2002 Cancer Research UK

              #1.72 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:53 PM EST
              aquatone

              If they cut off the whole penis, the risk of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases would drop to near zero. Why stop at just cutting off part of it? Cut off the whole thing. It's obviously much safer for your baby!

              Gimme a break. I'm fifty and am still intact, and I would have it no other way, trust me. I've never had any problems. If your baby grows up and wants to have it done, he can. But once it's gone, it's gone. I'm really glad that my parents made the decision to leave me whole. Guys who have this done to their sons don't themselves even know what they're missing. They can't even remember having one. They're basically clueless, but their egos are sure still intact. "My son should be just like me". I find that pathetic, and I'm glad my father considered ME more than HIMSELF - or any other factors - when making the decision 50 years ago.

              • 3 votes
              #1.73 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:55 AM EST
              alkimija

              You do not have the right to criticize someone for circumcising their children. If you chose not to have it done to your children, fine.

              Sure I do. It's called freedom of speech.

              However, circumcision is unnecessary surgery performed upon children who are unable to consent to the usually un-anesthetized procedure. That's called torture if you do it to an adult. It should be called torture to do it to a child.

              Nobody should have the "right" to torture another human being because of their superficial, cosmetic preferences, nor because of their religious peculiarities.

              • 2 votes
              #1.74 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:16 AM EST
              Fisherman144

              Nicky - Your sarcasm sounds very much like the ignorant posts about the 'non-benefits' of circumcision. There are some very important reasons to have this minor surgery done as early as possible; 1. Hygiene and the spread of disease should be enough reason - HPV, HIV, and many other bacterial strains are common when the foreskin is left intact. 2. The potential odor and sexual function may be important to some people. 3. The aesthetics and growth/size of the male genitals is most definitely effected when the foreskin is left on the penis (growth isn't restricted after circumcision). 4. Why would God order the removal of the foreskin to separate his people from others? The Old Testament has many rules in Deuteronomy that were written to prevent disease and possible death. If those reasons aren't enough, speak with your doctor.

              • 3 votes
              #1.75 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:34 AM EST
              Santino42

              1. Hygiene and the spread of disease should be enough reason - HPV, HIV, and many other bacterial strains are common when the foreskin is left intact.

              False...wear a condom...that is what stops the spread of disease.

              2. The potential odor and sexual function may be important to some people.

              Take a shower...odor problem solved.

              4. Why would God order the removal of the foreskin to separate his people from others?

              Because man interpreted his words incorrectly. Nice try...

              • 2 votes
              #1.76 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:00 PM EST
              American Lobo

              I was circumcised, but my wife didn't want our son to be because no male in her family is.

              I fully believe the studies that show circumcision can cut down on bacterial infections, and the spread of HIV and STD's.

              I don't remember any pain from being circumcised(no child or adult does) and have never had any problems resulting from circumcision.

              My penis has always been plenty sensitive(no sensitivity issues), even now at 40 years of age. I doubt my foreskin contained anything that would allow me to feel any more pleasure than I already do during sex.

              It's only in the minds of some people, when they equate it with mutilation.

              • 2 votes
              #1.77 - Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:00 AM EST
              Santino42

              Hey Lobo...it's too bad you "believe" false studies. You want to reduce the spread of STD's teach your son how to use a condom...problem solved.

                #1.78 - Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:40 PM EST
                Auteur 1536

                I think the decision should be left up to the kids when they're older, though the parents should try to, as well as teach their kids how to, clean under the foreskin.

                My cousin got circumcised when he was older, he chose to get circumcised. He had some minor complications but he is well and in one piece... 99.9% one piece.

                • 1 vote
                #1.79 - Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:52 AM EST
                Peter Jacobs

                God's Nature gave me a tool in order to guarantee the next generation and also to give me pleasure at will. I was also given a tool shed to safely store it in. My parents, in their wisdom, allowed me to keep both.

                They instructed me how not to be lazy and to clean the tool and the tool shed on a regular basis and how to practice safety while utilizing all of it. There was NEVER any reason to take any of it away from me and I am thank full for that. I have followed their steps and passed the same wisdom on to the next generation.

                The World is soon enough too cruel to our children. I see no reason why I should be the first one to be cruel to my sons in allowing this barbaric act to be practiced on them and still having to pay a henchman at the guillotine.

                • 4 votes
                #1.80 - Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:34 AM EST
                Reply
                hampster

                Why mutilate the kid???? People always want to screw around with nature and change things. Leave the penis alone! Stop the mutilation for no reason except aesthetics.

                • 17 votes
                Reply#2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:50 AM EST
                JustLove

                Exactly - what would we all say if it were socially acceptable to cut off a baby girl's labia? They are just useless flaps of skin/tissue anyway, right?

                Would it be right just because it was socially normal? I don't think so...

                • 4 votes
                #2.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:47 AM EST
                boneclinkz

                Would it be right just because it was socially normal? I don't think so...

                Sure, because as soon as you declare something "tradition" you have an army of @!$%#ing retards endorsing the practice.

                • 3 votes
                #2.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:03 AM EST
                addiem

                Cut off labia?? Someone doesn't have a clue regarding anatomy.

                You want your "covered wagon"? Go for it. After a documentary showing a hut full of crying little girls in god-forsaken muslim-leaning Africa somewhere, I was sorry to have 1) circumcised my son, and 2) get my daughter's ears pierced. Must be a bunch of nanny state Repubs here today, trying to get into people's bedrooms - however, male circumcision is NOT the severe situation of the female, get real.

                • 1 vote
                #2.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:40 PM EST
                cadwizardx

                First, they accurately point out that the foreskin is rich in nerves and that cutting it away removes erogenous tissue.

                I for one am extremely disapointed to hear this little tid-bit (no pun intended). But then again, they already call me a minute man, I'd hate to be known as the mili-second man.

                • 2 votes
                #2.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:40 PM EST
                Jackno

                Addiem, you need to get out from under the cultural propaganda. FGM is bad, but most is labia and clitoral hood cutting. Most of it is done in a hospital setting (BTW, much african male circ is done in the bush and hundreds of boys die each year). Women from Female circumcision cultures say female circumcision is cleaner and want their daughters snipped (does that sound at all familiar?). It is a fact that such FGM (which is most of it) cuts less pleasure giving nerves and takes away less capacity for pleasure than male circumcision (MGM) practiced here in the US. Of couse MGM and FGM are different as men and women are, and just because the male foreskin parts cut off include more nerves than the clitoris is not the point. FGM and MGM involve taking erogeous tissue off the body of another human. That is the point.

                Male and female circ are pushed for the same reasons -- hygiene and looks. Looks is not ra reasonable basis, particularly changing the body of another for your ideas of looks. The Hygiene basis is BS. Circ pushers occasionally do studies and try to say there is a health advantage. A Tanzania study said the FGM (labia and clitoral hood cutting) lowered HIV risk to the cut women. This was also claimed for MGM. I think these are both bogus and rely on other factors to change the risk (secual pratices and number of partners and condom use) from about 3.2% risk to 1.8% risk. The theory is that moist places and/or the type of tissue raises HIV risk. In reality STD and HIV sttudies in 1st world countries do not show this risk change with male circumcision so it is doubtful there is a risk change for female circumcision. With male circumcision it was found that it raises the risk of HIV to the partners of the circumcised men -- this could also be true of female circumcision.

                A fact that is certain is that all of these genital cutting practices remove capicity for pleasure of the circumcised. For men the loss is drastic with thousands of fine touch nerve endings cut off. For females the loss is a bit less severe for the most common FGM (labia and clitoral hood removal) and is sexually devastating for the extreme form.

                Let the human have the chance to experience their natural body. PLEASE Stop all circumcsion of minors.

                • 3 votes
                #2.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:24 PM EST
                Jackno

                cadwizardx ha ha... however, cut men have more premature ejaculation problems than natural men. The scar (now the most sensitive part of a cut penis) can send wrong signals to make one do it too soon. Of course many cut men have ED issues at a much younger age (they have lost the mechanisim to help gain and maintain an erection). Cut men use most of the VIAGRA. Natural provides more pleasure without triggering orgasm and allows for more timing control of orgasm. The pleasure is from fine touch and stretch sensors that are missing from the cut. SORRY.

                • 2 votes
                #2.6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:26 PM EST
                Fisherman144

                Jackno- Where the hell do you get your facts? They are mostly wrong. It would be very helpful to list some URL Sites to back-up your assertions. [fore-instance; erectile dysfunction has to do with blood flow, not sensitivity.]

                • 2 votes
                #2.7 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:41 AM EST
                Jackno

                Fisherman, Look into ED more. Blood flow is one issue. I did not say sensitivity, but that can contribute to ED issues. Circumcision harms the mechanism that helps gain and maintain an erection. It results in immeadiate dysfunction, but some would say not significant. Over time, several things combine including loss of sensation to bring on ED for cut men at a younger age. There is a direct correlation between VIAGRA and circumcision. Also, there are many men that suffer sexual probles (including ED) because of circumcision. Many men try to restore and very little attention is paid to this. What is the fact you dispute?

                  #2.8 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:55 AM EST
                  newmommy-1560133

                  Jackno, thank you. Not many people discuss how much circumcision decreases sexual satisfaction. Fisherman- you said it yourself ED has to do with blood flow.... which type of penis do you think will have problems with blood flow; one that has had a large part cut off or one that has never been cut?

                  Also, there are many forms of female circumcision and some like cutting off a small part of the clitoris as an infant is practiced just as male circumcision is practiced done routine as a baby. Over 90% of females in Egypt are circumcised in this way. Both decrease feeling and both carry similar risks. The only difference is that no skin has to be torn from the clitoris on a female. When a male is circumcised frequently the foreskin has not completely detached and it is first TORN away from the penis and then cut off. Which procedure sounds more cruel now? I've watched both being performed and the female circumcision looked much less cruel. I did not circumcise my daughter and I would not have if she was a boy either.

                  As far as the debate on reducing STD's...even a non circumcised male has lower risks of contracting STD's than a female. Contracting STD's and other infections is higher in males with foreskin because it is not just skin, it is a mucous membrane which aids in lubrication (maybe KY fuels the arguments to circumcise, once upon a time there wasnt fake lube to use). Circumcising reduces transmission in Africa where use of condoms is very low, no studies have tested and found the same thing in the US where condoms are used frequently. Teach boys safe sex like girls are taught and maybe we wont need to cut up their penises!

                  My husband is very upset he was circumcised and feels victimized. I'm upset as well because circumcision has been shown to decrease sexual satisfaction of both partners. Not that our sex life is bad but we always wonder what it could be.

                    #2.9 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:36 PM EST
                    Hugh7

                    @cadwizardx

                    First, they accurately point out that the foreskin is rich in nerves and that cutting it away removes erogenous tissue.

                    I for one am extremely disapointed to hear this little tid-bit (no pun intended). But then again, they already call me a minute man, I'd hate to be known as the mili-second man.

                    More nerves don't make you faster, they're specialised, like those of the fingertip, to give better quality sensation (someone called in "a symphony of sensation" ) and hence more control. Cutting off the foreskin is like ripping out your accelerator pedal and leaving only an on-off switch. You can still get there, but the ride, sorry, I mean the journey, isn't nearly so enjoyable.

                      #2.10 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:47 PM EST
                      American Lobo

                      I'm circumcised, and I have no sexual dysfunctions or decreased sexual satisfaction and never have. I'm almost 40 and I still feel my libido is closer to that of an 18 year old than a 40 year old.

                      I've always been able to maintain erections, even 20 or 30 minutes after ejaculating. Sex is always pleasurable for me(having a wife who is very sexy and attractive doesn't hurt either).

                      Your argument about "cut men", holds no water.

                      • 2 votes
                      #2.11 - Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:11 AM EST
                      newmommy-1560133

                      Were you circumcised as a baby? If so you wouldnt know if you have decreased sexual satisfaction. The only way to determine that is a study comparing couples with a circumcised male to couples with a non circumcised male, you cant say those studies dont hold water just because you personally dont know of any impact on yourself. I'm happy with my sex life as well but my husband and I still wonder. Also, just because it didnt cause problems for you doesnt mean that it doesnt cause problems for others. Circumcised men are more likely to have a curve to their penis or a smaller penis because they no longer have enough skin to have a full straight erection. Wouldnt you feel bad if you caused that for your son? BTW, I'm glad you dont have problems and have a satisfying sex life, I just would like that for everyone, and I think having part of a person's genitals cut off should be that person's choice. Nobody will ever be able to convince me that cutting off foreskin is more painful for an adult male just because he is an adult. nothing else is considered more painful for an adult than for a baby.

                        #2.12 - Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:19 PM EST
                        Reply
                        Greg-281912

                        I'm not so sure it makes any difference in the long-term. I am single and have no kids and never will, but if I did have sons, then they would not be circumcized because I think it's sort of cruel and not a necessity.

                        • 9 votes
                        Reply#3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:52 AM EST
                        ImPeazPod

                        I don't have kids and don't plan on it but, IF I had a son I'd leave as he came to the world. I don't view it as cruel, no more cruel than a birth (trauma related). I don't deem it to be a necessity, I think moms should know how to clean a penis and take care of one, that reduces risks of UTI's and if you teach your child how to clean themselves you lower the risks of other things. Teach them to use freaking condoms...oh how that reduced the risk of STD's and HIV. Blaming an uncircumcised penis for higher rates of contracting an STD...don't blame the lack of protection.

                        Leave the penis as it is!!! =)

                        • 7 votes
                        #3.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:57 AM EST
                        usfreestar

                        Only the mentally ill, the ignorant, the religious insane - or a combination here of - cut in newborn baby boys' penises.

                        That's all there is to say about it.

                        • 3 votes
                        #3.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:55 AM EST
                        Natalia-996117

                        Yeah, right - teach your sons to use a condom. And a 15/16 year old in the back seat, going hot and heavy is going to remember to use a condom because he is not circumsized. And the girl, for the first time is going to look at a penis and know is is uncircumsized or circumsized. Really!!!!!

                        What is the teenage pregnancy rate in the US? Anyone, anyone ...... Bueller, Bueller?????

                        • 4 votes
                        #3.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:28 PM EST
                        toponer

                        Natalia-996117

                        I have been with a man that is uncircumsized and trust me -- one of the ugliest sights!!!!!

                        But that did not stop you, right! LOL, Ugly or not! it still gets the job done, so why mess with nature for pure vanity!

                        • 8 votes
                        #3.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:36 PM EST
                        Santino42

                        And a 15/16 year old in the back seat, going hot and heavy is going to remember to use a condom because he is not circumsized.

                        Wow...so I take it you've had a lot of unprotected sex....nice.

                        • 2 votes
                        #3.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:54 PM EST
                        Natalia-996117

                        But at the time, I did not know the man was uncircumcised! I was dumb and naive! I thought to myself, after viewing his penis, "How am I going to enjoy the sex now? What an ugly thing." I vowed to never have uncircumcised sex again.

                        Sex is better when the man is circumcised (as is my husband) because there is less pressure and worry for myself about cervical cancer down the road.

                        • 2 votes
                        #3.6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:56 PM EST
                        Natalia-996117

                        S - no, I'm just saying that alot of teens have unprotected sex. I gravitated to a Lifetime movie scenario. Mea culpa!!!!

                        • 1 vote
                        #3.7 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:58 PM EST
                        icstars-1

                        Natalia, I do think you are protesting too much to be taken seriously.

                        You allegedly recount thinking, "How am I going to enjoy the sex now? What an ugly thing." That is silly and immature, like your assessment of "yuck" above. You are really going to claim that you didn't enjoy sex with your partner simply because you SAW his penis first? No, I don't believe it at all.

                        • 6 votes
                        #3.8 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:10 PM EST
                        addiem

                        Pretty easy to see who is stuck with a "covered wagon" from some of these posts.

                        • 1 vote
                        #3.9 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:42 PM EST
                        usfreestar

                        How am I going to enjoy the sex now? What an ugly thing." I vowed to never have uncircumcised sex again.

                        How utterly immature and ignorant a comment. It's like uttering women's labia makes them ugly and therefore I can't "ever have sex again" if they're not circumcised=removed. A good talk with a psychiatrist is surely needed in this particular case!

                        • 4 votes
                        #3.10 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:48 PM EST
                        Greg-281912

                        Seems to me that in order to make an informed decision on whether sex is better with an uncircumcized penis versus a circumcised one, wouldn't you need a large sample of, say, at least 10,000 partners, 5,000 of each?

                        Natalia's declaration that sex is better with an uncircumcized man tells me a lot....but only about Natalia.

                        Anyway, I think circumcision is a very bad thing. Nature takes care of itself, and we all know you don't mess with Mother Nature.

                        • 2 votes
                        #3.11 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:24 PM EST
                        Santino42

                        I gravitated to a Lifetime movie scenario.

                        Figures...

                        Pretty easy to see who is stuck with a "covered wagon" from some of these posts.

                        Pretty easy to see who's ignorant from that post. Way to support cosmetic surgery on infants...nice.

                          #3.12 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:45 PM EST
                          Reply
                          primal-1557197

                          Clearly one of the most barbaric acts intentionally undertaken by modern man. Parents wake up, we cannot improve on natures design for the human. The next time you get an urge to "cut something off of someone", turn the knife on yourself, in 25 years your sons will thank you for it.

                            Reply#4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:58 AM EST
                            ImpeachObama-1512090

                            This article cuts right to the point!

                            • 7 votes
                            Reply#5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:00 AM EST
                            MKII

                            Perhaps the traditions of the doctors has some impact on their recommendations ?

                            • 6 votes
                            Reply#6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:01 AM EST
                            Santino42

                            Perhaps the traditions of the doctors has some impact on their recommendations ?

                            Or the pocketbooks of the docs and the hospitals...

                            • 5 votes
                            #6.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:53 AM EST
                            yvonnemari

                            PUHLEEZ...hospitals/doctors make next to nothing from insurance companies on this procedure.

                            In FACT, most companies STOPPED paying for it separately years ago and said that the cost of circ'ing was INCLUDED in the cost of the baby's delivery.

                            And the VAST majority of people in this country do NOT pay out of pocket (cash) for the delivery of babies.

                            Trust me, you not of what you speak.

                            • 3 votes
                            #6.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:16 AM EST
                            Santino42

                            PUHLEEZ...hospitals/doctors make next to nothing from insurance companies on this procedure.

                            Please let everyone know how much the hospitals are paid out per procedure? You obviously have a link to support this...

                            The money maker for hospitals is surgery...always has been and always will be.

                              #6.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:22 AM EST
                              philip munroe

                              Trust me, you not of what you speak.

                              okay, how many of these doctors are cut themselves or have done so many procedures on defenseless infants altready that turning against it is no longer something they can contemplate without experiencing some major remorse??? we put labels on people and call them professional thinking the fact that they are paid and not breaking the law exonerates them from what they do but there is always a personal element to actions such as this.

                                #6.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:05 PM EST
                                Natalia-996117

                                yvonnemarie - absolutely correct!!!! That is why the number of uncircumcised males in the US rose since the 1970s and continues to grow.

                                • 3 votes
                                #6.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:00 PM EST
                                boneclinkz

                                yvonnemarie - absolutely correct!!!! That is why the number of uncircumcised males in the US rose since the 1970s and continues to grow.

                                Making progress...

                                • 1 vote
                                #6.6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:14 PM EST
                                yvonnemari

                                Please let everyone know how much the hospitals are paid out per procedure? You obviously have a link to support this...

                                It varies both by insurance company and by the plan you either buy individually or through your employer. Roughly, most uncomplicated vaginal deliveries are paid in the $1800-2500 and c-sections are 50% to twice that. That is just the doctor's reimbursement. Hospitals add on an additional $2500-$10000 depending on any complications, number of additional days beyond the first 24hours length of stay, and whether you had epidural, anesthesia, telemetry, etc.

                                All deliveries are paid by a Global Fee which includes prenatal care, post natal care, the circ, and the delivery. Global Fee means one flat fee. There is no breakdown by procedure (unless you change OBs/Midwives part way through a PG). You are welcome to contact your own insurance company to verify this. Ask just about any woman who has had a baby. They get to know this issue intimately since OBs often ask for payment up front (which is illegal BTW in many cases, but I digress) and they end up having to sort through all of this madness.

                                It is very well known in the health industry. It has been like that,consistently, for well over 30 years.

                                Really, you don't know what you are talking about.

                                • 1 vote
                                #6.7 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:25 PM EST
                                yvonnemari

                                yvonnemarie - absolutely correct!!!! That is why the number of uncircumcised males in the US rose since the 1970s and continues to grow.

                                I never said I had a problem with that. Just because I circ doesn't mean I think every one should.

                                The one good thing about this change in the way payment for circs are made is that it made hospitals and doctors who INSISTED on this procedure being performed less and less common. Once hospitals did not get paid separately for this procedure, "policy" changed and now many more people have a choice. I see that as a win-win for everyone. You should ALWAYS have the choice to make the decision that works best for YOUR family.

                                What you want is for me to make your choice. You don't want me to make the choice that is right for me.

                                Don't twist my words or their meaning. You and I are not on the same side of this issue. I am all for everyone making the decision that right for them. I have multiple posts on here saying EXACTLY that.

                                You OTOH want everyone to listen to you and do as you do. THAT is neither choice nor freedom.

                                • 2 votes
                                #6.8 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:31 PM EST
                                Santino42

                                Really, you don't know what you are talking about.

                                And you still don't know how much the hospital's profits are...nice.

                                I am all for everyone making the decision that right for them. I have multiple posts on here saying EXACTLY that.

                                Great...well with that attitude I will choose to give my daughters a nose job and breast implants when they are born...why not...according to you it's my choice right.

                                  #6.9 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:39 PM EST
                                  Reply
                                  mickeymouse-1446349

                                  My son was born 1985, they advised against circumcision so he was not. next 5 years many of his Dr. visits were for urinary tract infection and we had him practice good hygene.

                                  so he got circumcised at 5 yrs { painful for both of us } but no more urinary tract infection.

                                  also he saw the Dr. ALOT for throat issues. took out his tonsils no more problems.

                                  • 16 votes
                                  Reply#7 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:07 AM EST
                                  Nathan Pannell

                                  Sounds like you went to a lot of ignorant doctors because urinary tract infections are not that big of a deal.

                                  • 4 votes
                                  #7.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:34 AM EST
                                  JLL-440136

                                  I had UTI's as a teen, and not one doctor suggested lopping off bits and pieces of my anatomy as a cure-all. They just gave me antibiotics, and the problem went away. Why exactly would one treat UTI's surgically for boys and with antibiotics for girls?

                                  • 7 votes
                                  #7.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:45 AM EST
                                  KyleN

                                  Some people are prone to infection for various reasons, considering both the tonsil and UTI problems it sounds like he is one of those people. So in that case, which is fairly rare, it would be a reasonable choice. But for others to remove foreskin as a prophylactic measure in case their son is in the 1% with those problems is extreme.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #7.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:04 AM EST
                                  Ritdog-908299

                                  Hey Nate -

                                  ".....urinary tract infections are not that big of a deal."

                                  You obviously have never had a girlfriend. If you know any, ask a woman what a yeast infection is like. Then maybe you'll have a clue as to what you are talking about.

                                  • 10 votes
                                  #7.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:07 AM EST
                                  philip munroe

                                  mickey it's hardly a surprise that the doctors finally got around to cutting your kid it's a wonder that it took them 5 years to get their knives into him. unfortunately for him foreskins unlike tonsils don't come back

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #7.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:07 PM EST
                                  Natalia-996117

                                  JLL - if you take anti-biotics too much, for every infection - you run the risk of them not working. Then you are placed on different types of anti-biotics. Eventually you will run the risk of no anti-biotic working on even a minor infection.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #7.6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:08 PM EST
                                  JLL-440136

                                  I'm well aware of how antibiotic resistance works. By the way, people don't develop resistance to antibiotics though, the bacteria develop resistance. But that still doesn't explain why the solution to UTIs in boys is surgery and the solution in girls is antibiotics. And it in no way addressed the fact that so many here are talking about circumcising before any UTI even occurs! Are there any other perfectly healthy parts of the body that we're willing to cut off because there might be an infection later? Tonsils? Appendix? Toes? The AAP has calculated that something like 200 circumcisions need to be performed to prevent one UTI. And really, if we're worried about antibiotic resistance, we should be chopping things off of girls' genitals to prevent UTIs - since they are considerably more likely to have UTIs than uncircumcised boys? It is simply an absurd argument. And even more absurd when you condiser that circumcision carries a rate of post-op bleeding and infection that is even higher than the rate of UTIs in uncircumcised boys to begin with!

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #7.7 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:56 PM EST
                                  Reply
                                  jand-730251

                                  I have never understood this discussion. I'm wearing the foreskin back permanently since I was 19 (45 years ago now), works just as well when it comes to the hygene effect.

                                  Why do I never (!) hear anyone recommend something as simple as this??

                                    Reply#8 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:07 AM EST
                                    Amy-1026029

                                    I didn't know you could do that.

                                      #8.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:17 AM EST
                                      bonos_rama

                                      How does it STAY back??

                                        #8.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:27 AM EST
                                        boneclinkz

                                        Crazy glue.

                                        • 7 votes
                                        #8.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:40 AM EST
                                        Natalia-996117

                                        Penis ring????? Ouch!!!!

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #8.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:09 PM EST
                                        aquatone

                                        You sound more like you had a poor circumcision than none at all. Like maybe they only took off half of it? It happens. Just sayin'.

                                          #8.5 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:14 AM EST
                                          Reply
                                          amalthra

                                          This is also posted under politics? This is really a medical-parenting-kids topic I think. I know it does concern (another word for Richards maybe?) but hey, really now. :)

                                          • 2 votes
                                          Reply#9 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:09 AM EST
                                          Patrick-1416317

                                          Ridiculous. Removing a part of a child's body without any input from them is just ridiculous.

                                          There are so many risks associated with removing the foreskin, including infection or death. Why would anyone want to subject their newborn to that risk, for 'cosmetic' purposes. People are delusional, and/or sick

                                          • 9 votes
                                          Reply#10 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:14 AM EST
                                          Notanidiotlikeolegunny

                                          Sure there are risks, if you use a rusty blunt razor blade. But any decent doctor with an autoclave and some antibiotic can do a circumcision without "the risk of infection or death." You are just being alarmist (and ridiculous).

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #10.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:46 AM EST
                                          ashepp3

                                          Sure there are risks, if you use a rusty blunt razor blade. But any decent doctor with an autoclave and some antibiotic can do a circumcision without "the risk of infection or death." You are just being alarmist (and ridiculous).

                                          And you seem to be in denial about the fact that circumcision is mutilation (to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts).

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #10.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:57 AM EST
                                          JLL-440136

                                          Just because bleeding and infection are treated, doesn't mean they did not occur. The risk is still there. Actually, the Canadian Paediatric Society has a nice table (with references) outlining the typical rates of circumcision complications here:

                                          http://www.cps.ca/caringforkids/pregnancy&babies/Circumcision.htm

                                          20-30 out of 1000 circumcised have uncontrolled bleeding or infection

                                          2-3 out of 1000 will have more serious bleeding or too much tissue removed

                                          2 out of 1000 will be hospitalized for a UTI

                                          10 out of 1000 will have to have their circumcision redone later

                                          Compare that with the rates of the problems neonatal circumcision is supposed to prevent:

                                          7 in 1000 uncircumcised babies will be hospitalized for UTI

                                          10 in 1000 will get circumcised later

                                          So circumcision is replacing an incredibly low risks of problems with a slightly higher risk of problems. What is the point? Sounds like a purely consmetic decision to me - and one the boy should be able to make for himself.

                                          • 4 votes
                                          #10.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:04 AM EST
                                          JimmyDaGeek

                                          "There are so many risks associated with removing the foreskin, including infection or death."

                                          Really?? So why do you drive a car, or walk down the street? The odds are greater that you will get killed doing that. If you are that worried about infection, hire a Jewish circumciser. They are trained and equipped to do one thing well.

                                            #10.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:19 AM EST
                                            coalbear_1

                                            Wonder at my surprise that other boys had heads on their dicks during gym class. Now I understand why my parents never allowed me to play with boys or stay overnight. The damn "Doctor" cut the head of my penis OFF. How would you like to live 47 years without sex and sit down to pee. Hows that for wanting to look like dad or women that think it's so much better looking.

                                            IT IS MUTILATION

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #10.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:07 PM EST
                                            Hugh7

                                            JimmyDaGeek

                                            "There are so many risks associated with removing the foreskin, including infection or death."

                                            Really?? So why do you drive a car, or walk down the street? The odds are greater that you will get killed doing that.

                                            But you HAVE to walk down the street. Nobody HAS to cut part off someone else's penis. And some people choose not to use cars.

                                            If you are that worried about infection, hire a Jewish circumciser. They are trained and equipped to do one thing well.

                                            Infection and death can strike Jewish babies too.

                                            And those are only the worst risks. There is no official amount of skin to remove, it comes down to the doctor's/mohel's preference, and what does he know about how much skin the baby is going to want or need when he grows up? Many other things can go wrong - and like writing on a balloon, any mistake gets enlarged when it reaches full size.

                                              #10.6 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:57 PM EST
                                              Reply
                                              Hillary & Feingold Fan

                                              Thank goodness my dad left the decision to me and didn't let them mutilate me.  I can only think of advantages to having my foreskin intact, including a little extra fun in the shower daily.

                                              • 8 votes
                                              Reply#11 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:15 AM EST
                                              Amy-1026029

                                              My 6 year old too. LOL

                                                #11.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:01 AM EST
                                                Reply
                                                weRdoomed

                                                It is comforting to see so many people with a realistic, humane view of circumcision.

                                                I disagree with the article that there is a big difference between female and male circumcision. The only difference is that one is accepted and one is not.

                                                In most cases, it is just male ego - the father is circumcised and afraid to not have his son done as well because it might suggest something is wrong with him.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                Reply#12 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:24 AM EST
                                                bonos_rama

                                                Actually, there IS a different between female and male circumcision, b/c what they are calling female circumcision is more akin to cutting the entire penis off.

                                                • 6 votes
                                                #12.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:27 AM EST
                                                Santino42

                                                Actually, there IS a different between female and male circumcision, b/c what they are calling female circumcision is more akin to cutting the entire penis off.

                                                True...but they are both unnecessary procedures.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #12.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:56 AM EST
                                                weRdoomed

                                                Many female circumcisions involve only cutting the tip of the clitoris off. The also claim it is for hygiene (in addition to other religious beliefs) not unlike the male counterpart.

                                                I just support people really looking into the procedure and not letting their own ego affect their decision. For example, I'm relieved that my husband is uncut because if he was cut and we had a son, I wouldn't want my husband to think I thought something was wrong with him just because I didn't want our son to have the same procedure.

                                                It is probably an uncomfortable discussion to have, but important none the less.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #12.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:27 AM EST
                                                Greg-281912

                                                I think most men who are circumsized (and probably most parents) are absolutely terrified of having to have a conversation with their son about why the son looks different than the Dad or other men/boys.

                                                And isn't that sad? Parents are willing to mutilate their son for their own convenience, no more and no less. It has nothing to do with hygiene or health, but that parents can't even say the word "penis" in front of a child!

                                                And parents wonder why their teenagers get pregnant/get others pregnant!

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #12.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:31 PM EST
                                                Reply
                                                Rixar13

                                                — pretty much what new parents have been expected to do since routine male circumcision became a political issue more than 25 years ago.

                                                I fell into something that I had no choice in. No urinary tract infections though. Evolution didn't solve this one....?

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#13 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:24 AM EST
                                                Notanidiotlikeolegunny

                                                Never had a urinary tract infection and I am uncut. So two anecdotal pieces of "evidence"??

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #13.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:48 AM EST
                                                Rixar13

                                                I agree with you, just saying that I had no choice and no memory of the event. smile

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #13.2 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:35 AM EST
                                                Reply
                                                sieg6529

                                                I think that the decision should be the child's not the parents. Let him grow up and decide for himself.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                Reply#14 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:26 AM EST
                                                Plugger

                                                Good thought. How many uncircumcised men older than 15 would choose to be circumcised?

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #14.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:18 PM EST
                                                Reply
                                                Nathan Pannell

                                                This article is a step in the right direction however it is still biased toward circumcision here are the problems I see

                                                1. The author compares intactavist to Jenny McCarthy which isn't comparable as Jenny made unprovable claims about vaccines Intactavist however have hundreds of research articles which indicate circumcision is harmful.
                                                2. Implies that all forms of female circumcision are the most brutal type however the reality is that the most brutal is the least common with the most common being the amputation or cutting of the clitoral hood(prepuce) which is equivalent to the amputation of the male foreskin (prepuce).
                                                3. The author also implies that circumcisions cannot be brutal, in one part of the world I think southern Yemen if a man wants to get married he has to get circumcised however to do so he must have not only the foreskin removed but all the skin on his penis and if he flinches they will kill him on the spot. In some parts of Africa they circumcise boys and forced them to eat their own foreskins, and/or stay in make shift homes away from any kind of medical care or substantial source of nutrition.
                                                4. Saying that 80% of American men are circumcised is a blatant lie the rate of circumcision has fallen steadily due to few infants and children being circumcised. Also the current rate for the number of children being circumcised is about 50-60% which means their is a good chance the child will be in the minority if he is circumcised not the majority.
                                                5. The author assumes that because doctors have pain killers they will use them and they assume the pain killers eliminate all pain further more they neglected to mention the baby has to endure great pain after the surgery because the raw wound comes in contact with urine, their diapers, etc.
                                                6. The author brings up the research that says that foreskin reduces the risk of HIV, HPV, and other STDs yet they didn't bring up the fact that other research indicates that being circumcised increases the risk of contracting HIV, HPV and other STDs along with an increased risk of spreading HIV to other people.
                                                7. The author also talks about UTIs as if they are these terrible things that will ruin your life however the author forgot to mention that it would take around 100 circumcisions to prevent one UTI and while painful they can easily be treated with antibiotics.
                                                8. The author encourages the idea boys might get hurt mentally in the locker room seeing they are not circumcised while their peers are, this don't happen because guys don't look at each other's penises and many schools no longer require students to shower.
                                                9. The author indicates that because parents want it done for cosmetic reasons that it is a justifiable reason to do so, however that is not a valid reason to put any child's health and life at risk.
                                                • 12 votes
                                                Reply#15 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:30 AM EST
                                                Notanidiotlikeolegunny

                                                References please. Otherwise it is your unsubstantiated opinion.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #15.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:50 AM EST
                                                Jackno

                                                Look for New Zealand study (2nd large one) where STDS not different for cut and natural men. All US studies show no difference in HPV between cut and natural. In the US cut and natural men have same rate of getting HIV. The fact is all of theis crap about STDs that same circumcision is lower is unsubstantiated opinion.

                                                  #15.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:32 PM EST
                                                  Reply
                                                  blackdooR

                                                  Sexual Satisfaction at it's Greatest!!!

                                                  Leave it alone. In his mind He will thank you later.

                                                  • 8 votes
                                                  Reply#16 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:30 AM EST
                                                  Newswatcher-391493

                                                      Cosmetic purposes?  Whoa...Patrick, read up on it a little--20 years ago my friend developed an infection under his foreskin.  Wouldn't respond to antibiotics, finally had to have a circumcision at the ripe old age of 23.  Six months later, he could almost walk upright.  Point is, there are good reasons on both sides.

                                                  • 8 votes
                                                  Reply#17 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:31 AM EST
                                                  bonos_rama

                                                  I know someone's whose appendix burst when she was 45. Painful as hell and put her in the hospital and out of commission for a couple of weeks.

                                                  Should we remove appendices at birth, too, on the odd chance that a person's might burst?

                                                  • 12 votes
                                                  #17.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:49 AM EST
                                                  Notanidiotlikeolegunny

                                                  Try washing.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #17.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:51 AM EST
                                                  American Lobo

                                                  actually, I've known a few people who've had doctors take out their appendix, while they had them opened up for other procedures on the operating table. Maybe the docotrs felt it was like killing 2 birds, before the appendix had a chance to act up and require more surgery.

                                                  I'm circumcised and I've never missed my foreskin.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #17.3 - Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:27 AM EST
                                                  Reply
                                                  pauli-539616

                                                  Girls like it clean, you know that's true.

                                                  • 4 votes
                                                  Reply#18 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:31 AM EST
                                                  Nathan Pannell

                                                  The penis is as dirty as the vagina and the vagina produces much more smegma.

                                                  • 4 votes
                                                  #18.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:40 AM EST
                                                  Josh-304951

                                                  Talk about the proverbial pot calling the kettle black!

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #18.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:41 AM EST
                                                  ceb111481

                                                  And it's not hard to keep it clean with foreksin, plain and simple.

                                                  I'm a girl and I happen to prefer intact men, so what do you say to that??? It FEELS amazing, it's so much better than a cut man. Foreskin is god's gift to women, and any women who have not had sex with an intact man have no idea what they are missing. Oh well, their loss.

                                                  • 13 votes
                                                  #18.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:45 AM EST
                                                  ashepp3

                                                  Right, let's mutilate babies because girls "like it clean".

                                                  That's just wrong, and I can tell you that many women are not that superficial or ignorant.

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #18.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:48 AM EST
                                                  Santino42

                                                  That's just wrong, and I can tell you that many women are not that superficial or ignorant.

                                                  There are times where I still think I'm the only intact guy in my age group (almost 30) besides the males in my family and had to hear and deal with girls like pauli my whole early sexual life. How superficial and ignorant indeed.

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #18.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:03 AM EST
                                                  weRdoomed

                                                  As a woman, I disagree that women prefer cut men (they probaby SAY they do because many men are cut and their feelings would be hurt).

                                                  I have been with two men, one cut, one not (my husband now). The cut guy was an amazing lover, but with my husband...it's amazing, and well...a smooth ride which only adds to it.

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #18.6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:31 AM EST
                                                  RuthAnn-595820

                                                  This discussion has gone down a very strange road.

                                                  I know that I've been happily married for a long time now, but I dated a lot before I got married and how the guy treated me and what we had in common were the things I looked for in a guy --- how his penis looked never even entered my mind!

                                                  I still ended up happy with what I got - maybe that's why I'm still married. Just a thought ladies

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #18.7 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:05 PM EST
                                                  addiem

                                                  Ah, Santino, finally the truth comes out. Yep, the old "I like my covered wagon get over it". Well, whatever.

                                                  More truth - the "brown guys" are FAR more likely to have a covered wagon than the "white guys".

                                                    #18.8 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:19 PM EST
                                                    Santino42

                                                    More truth - the "brown guys" are FAR more likely to have a covered wagon than the "white guys".

                                                    Wow...that sounded borderline racist.

                                                    FYI...my family comes from Sicily which would be considered white. Also have you checked the European circumcision rates lately...you might want to do that.

                                                    • 4 votes
                                                    #18.9 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:22 PM EST
                                                    addiem

                                                    A hundred years ago in this country, they, the Italians, the Slavs - were considered "colored". But that was then. You can say racist, but actually, in this country of immigrants, where in 50 years America will be some shade of brown - "brown guys" are less likely to be circumcized. My own extended family is testament to that, we Scot-Germans, those of an older age, are almost always circumcised. Are mores changing? Yes, life goes on - and personally, I care not one way or the other, except that to me the "covered wagon" looks odd.

                                                      #18.10 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:37 PM EST
                                                      aquatone

                                                      How does a woman who has been with two men come to the conclusion that the first one was an "amazing lover"?

                                                      Where is Dr. House when you need him...?

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #18.11 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:23 AM EST
                                                      Santino42

                                                      and personally, I care not one way or the other, except that to me the "covered wagon" looks odd

                                                      Great...so you support cosmetic surgery on infants.

                                                        #18.12 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:06 PM EST
                                                        weRdoomed

                                                        aquatone - Any guy who can actually make a woman cum -- and not just convince her to fake it -- is amazing in my book.

                                                        Do you have to eat more than one bowl of ice cream to know it is delicious?

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #18.13 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:09 PM EST
                                                        Reply
                                                        blackdooR

                                                        ..oh, and while you're at it, could you pierce my newborn's ears, tattoo a upc code on the back of his head and install the GPS computer chip location device in his arse?

                                                        Does he really need that pinky toe too?

                                                        • 9 votes
                                                        Reply#19 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:36 AM EST
                                                        bnfbeazerDeleted
                                                        SeattleBobb

                                                        I am not a religious person at all, but I support cleaning it up. Be honest now people, all the ladies I know prefer a penis over a saggy skinned ant eater.

                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        Reply#21 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:37 AM EST
                                                        boneclinkz

                                                        I've heard a lot of women say that, but in all honesty if a woman has a problem with the equipment in its natural state that shallow bitch can hit the @!$%#ing road.

                                                        Unfortunately my parents had me circumcised, so I'll never get to unleash that sort of righteous indignation.

                                                        • 6 votes
                                                        #21.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:45 AM EST
                                                        TD-1557357

                                                        "Cleaning it up" implies that the intact penis is less clean than a cut one, which is a myth (especially where we have warm running water).

                                                        The ladies you know are in the minority. Over 80% of the world's males are intact, and they don't seem to have a problem getting laid. I'm in the Seattle area too, and the majority of women I know vocally prefer intact. Washington State, BTW, has among the lowest infant circ rates in the nation, at under 30%.

                                                        Besides, why the heck should a female cosmetic preference have anything to do with cutting a baby's penis?? Should we start giving girls breast implants at birth? Be honest now people, all the guys I know prefer a pair of huge knockers over a pancake chest.

                                                        /sarcasm

                                                        • 11 votes
                                                        #21.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:47 AM EST
                                                        ashepp3

                                                        As a female I can tell you that not all women are that superficial or ignorant. I'm sorry that the women you know are.

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #21.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:50 AM EST
                                                        bnfbeazerDeleted
                                                        Santino42

                                                        I am not a religious person at all, but I support cleaning it up. Be honest now people, all the ladies I know prefer a penis over a saggy skinned ant eater.

                                                        When your penis is erect you couldn't tell the difference if you tried.

                                                        • 5 votes
                                                        #21.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:07 AM EST
                                                        weRdoomed

                                                        As a woman, I'll tell you what the truth is: women prefer the feel of an uncut penis, but if a girl is with a cut guy - they will tell them they prefer it cut.

                                                        DUH! Obviously, we don't want to insult the guy we are with...especially about something he cannot change!! But behind closed doors, we admit to each other that it feels a lot better with an uncut guy.

                                                        • 6 votes
                                                        #21.6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:38 AM EST
                                                        RuthAnn-595820

                                                        I am not a religious person at all, but I support cleaning it up. Be honest now people, all the ladies I know prefer a penis over a saggy skinned ant eater.

                                                        When your penis is erect you couldn't tell the difference if you tried.

                                                        Well, that might be a fun line up!

                                                          #21.7 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:10 PM EST
                                                          addiem

                                                          weR - eeew! Quit kiddin' yourself.

                                                            #21.8 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:26 PM EST
                                                            Freedom Writer-801740

                                                            WErdoomed as a woman i disagree with you. I prefer a cut penis and have experienced an uncut one on enough occasions that i will now say no thank you rather than be with somone who isnt circumsized. Its a personal preference, but the majority of ladies I know actually prefer the circumsized one.

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #21.9 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:09 PM EST
                                                            weRdoomed

                                                            Freedom Writer-801740 - fair enough. The women I know feel differently for the most part. Of course, it's possible it is a hygiene issue. Cut or uncut -- you need to shower, boys!

                                                            But this is so far from the point -- no parts of your body should be cut off unless you personally decide they get cut off (save for medical emergencies). End of story.

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #21.10 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:02 PM EST
                                                            tyler

                                                            bnfbeazer

                                                            'Sup expanded-foster. Still not happening. Banned, rereg multiple accounter, most recently dfizzzzzz.

                                                            ...

                                                            a saggy skinned ant eater.

                                                            Unfair categorization. Not all foreskins are the equivalent of baggy jeans *points at lap*. I remember seeing a chart of different levels of foreskin at some point. There are like 16.

                                                            • 5 votes
                                                            #21.11 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:36 PM EST
                                                            Smc31569

                                                            Well Bobb, the women you've been with obviously haven't had the opportunity or experience to participate in L'amour Natural. Speaking from experience, it's 100% more preferable, more pleasurable and more fun... for BOTH partners. I'm only sorry that I grew up in the US and not in Europe because I had no idea what I was MISSING until I started dating European men. Luckily my son realizes the ADVANTAGE he has over his buddies as I left him au natural at birth. The only reason why American women attach a "stigma" to uncircumcised penises is because they've been indoctrinated with misinformation. Believe me... if uncircumcised was the "norm" here like it is everywhere else.. you'd NEVER hear a complaint. Just a lot of extra loud ohhhhhing and ahhhhhing ;)

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #21.12 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:43 PM EST
                                                            Reply
                                                            Not against skin

                                                            I am Swedish and neither I nor any other European I know have been circumcized. Circumcision seems to be a US thing and has probably been introduced in order to make the "sinful" art of masturbation more difficult.

                                                            • 12 votes
                                                            Reply#22 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:41 AM EST
                                                            AMphoto

                                                            Hahah, as an American...you are probably right.

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #22.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:45 AM EST
                                                            Nathan Pannell

                                                            That is why Americans originally circumcised boys and girls, because everyone believed that masturbation was a deadly behavior that caused blindness, insanity, asthma, etc. and the doctors advocated circumcision as a cure because they knew it would make sex less pleasurable.

                                                            • 4 votes
                                                            #22.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:47 AM EST
                                                            TL-770512

                                                            That is why Americans originally circumcised boys and girls

                                                            WTH are you on about? I have never heard of female circumcision in the USA. I'm also not aware of a prevalence of female circumcision in other Americans (North, Central or South Americans).

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #22.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:46 AM EST
                                                            JLL-440136

                                                            Female circumcision was practiced here in the US until the early 1970's, though obviously it didn't become as common as male circumcision. Back in the beginning of the 1900's it was promoted for the same reason male circumcision was - to prevent masturbation and mental illness:

                                                            http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/

                                                            • 3 votes
                                                            #22.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:59 AM EST
                                                            addiem

                                                            Ok Nathan, fess up, what country are you from, 'cause it sure isn't America. Ugh.

                                                              #22.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:27 PM EST
                                                              Ian Blokesworth

                                                              addiem, Nathan is right about the anti-masturbation movement in the US of the late 1800's/early 1900's.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #22.6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:22 PM EST
                                                              American Lobo

                                                              You can believe what you want.

                                                              As a circumcised male, I can tell you that sex and masturbation have always been VERY pleasurable for me.

                                                              Those of you who are anti circumcision, are just making up stories to justify staying uncut.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #22.7 - Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:36 AM EST
                                                              Reply
                                                              TD-1557357

                                                              Circumcision removes what will, if left alone, become 15 square inches of tissue vital to normal penile function. This tissue contains ~20,000 fine-touch nerve receptors (more than twice as many as the clitoris), several feet of blood vessels, anti-viral Langerhans cells (which express Langerin, a hormone which captures and breaks down HIV and other STDs), the Ridged Band of muscle and often the frenulum (the "male G-spot"). It negatively impacts breastfeeding and effectively re-wires the developing infant brain, increasing pain response later in life.

                                                              It truncates (shortens) the penis, changing function from a rolling-bearing during sex to a dry piston, negatively impacting the female. It can cause a host of problems, both immediately (hemorrhage, shock, MRSA, buried penis, loss of penis, sepsis, death) and later in life (chordee, suture tunnels, pitted glans, hypertrophic scarring, premature and delayed ejaculation, keratinization, impotence).

                                                              These are among the known harms of infant circumcision. Even if the recent studies weren't deeply flawed (and they are), if we truly weigh the known risks, there is no net benefit to doing it at birth.

                                                              What is the problem with allowing the owner of the penis to grow and mature, to develop naturally, and make his own decision about his own body upon adulthood? Surgery at that time has fewer complications, superior pain management, and a superior cosmetic result.

                                                              • 14 votes
                                                              Reply#23 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:41 AM EST
                                                              coalbear_1

                                                              Now how many adult men would actually cut 15 square inches of pleasure off their penis? Maybe a few into pain and humiliation. Besides the doctor would be out 500 bucks and the hospital $4000. Google " foreskin for sell". Labs buy them to grow skin. Where do you think skin for burn victims comes from? Cosmetic manufactures use them to make Opra's face cream. Foreskin revenues are close to one billion dollars a year.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #23.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:27 PM EST
                                                              landspirit

                                                              Excellent post. I consider circumcision motivated like formula feeding was. I had to battle many to breast feed my first child as it was just coming back. I was told formula was 'better' for my child and that I was 'hurting' him by nursing. I ignored them saying that millions of years of evolution produced milk that ensured to the best possible, survival, normal growth and health of a human or we would not have survived as a species. Turns out I was right.

                                                              Millions of years of evolution produced the unaltered penis. There was a reason: it enhanced health, survival and productivity (Productivity likely by making it so much more pleasurable). So it makes no sense to cut it off. Sometimes the science of understanding comes after because it is clouded by human arrogance and the unwillingness to see ourselves as evolved animals.

                                                              • 5 votes
                                                              #23.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:34 PM EST
                                                              Nonenone

                                                              Great response-Nice mix of facts and a conclusion that no right minded person would deny...I have not been penially mutilated (I made that term up) and have two children no infections ever and have slept with a fair few women in my 30 years...Leaving it alone didnt harm me one bit...Just my persoanl feelings.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #23.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:39 PM EST
                                                              Smc31569

                                                              A man was standing in an elevator admiring another guy's new wallet as he took it out of his coat to hand out a business card. " Excuse me" he said..." That's a real handsome wallet you have there, quite unique in fact. I've never seen that kind of leather before. What is it ?" "Oh thank you" the gentleman replied. It's made out of genuine foreskin and check this out, you'll be amazed ... " The man then started slowly rubbing the wallet with his fingers... back and forth, back and forth methodically, "ok... now just watch what happens" he said. Then all of a sudden the wallet turned into a briefcase ! "

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #23.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:56 PM EST
                                                              aquatone

                                                              Mine turns into a bucket seat. Ladies only, though.

                                                                #23.5 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:35 AM EST
                                                                Reply
                                                                AMphoto

                                                                There is NO reason to be circumcised any more. My fiance is uncircumcised, as with every other male in his family and not one of them has had a problem with it. Society has ingrained in people that its clean to be circumcised, however it's completely unnecessary. To each their own, but I would NEVER mutilate my own child like that.

                                                                • 7 votes
                                                                Reply#24 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:42 AM EST
                                                                TD-1557357

                                                                "To each their own..."

                                                                Precisely. Leave the decision to the owner of the body part.

                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                #24.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:51 AM EST
                                                                Reply
                                                                Fred-45144444

                                                                Leave it up to the Mom. If her preference is a bald penis fine, if she likes a hoody great. It's the women who desire the damn thing anyway. Well, mostly women.

                                                                  Reply#25 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:49 AM EST
                                                                  JLL-440136

                                                                  Huh? Why should it be the mom's preference - she isn't going to be having sex with her son.... at least I'd hope not.

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  #25.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:52 AM EST
                                                                  Fred-45144444

                                                                  Because it's her kid. It's like my car. I have a hot rod Mustang and I have fuzzy dice hanging from the mirror. My wife hates them but it's my car. Likewise, the kid came out of her so let her have the penis of her choice.

                                                                  Hey, this the 1st time I've been pro-choice. Go figure.

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #25.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:57 AM EST
                                                                  boneclinkz

                                                                  Because it's her kid. It's like my car. I have a hot rod Mustang and I have fuzzy dice hanging from the mirror. My wife hates them but it's my car. Likewise, the kid came out of her so let her have the penis of her choice.

                                                                  Hey, this the 1st time I've been pro-choice. Go figure.

                                                                  This is a terrible opinion. How would you feel about a mother scrawling full-body tattoos all over her infant?

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  #25.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:07 AM EST
                                                                  tom474e

                                                                  Anyone considering circumcision for their infant should not do it. The foreskin is rich in nerves and is an important part in lovemaking. If someone wants to be circumcised let them make the decision when there adults and can weigh the pros and cons for themselves. There have been studies that show circumcision is detrimental to love making and the proper functioning of the penis.

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #25.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:11 AM EST
                                                                  JLL-440136

                                                                  Actually, your analogy should be that it is her kid just like your car belongs to your mother, not you, and she got to make the final call on what you'll be driving for the rest of your life back when you were an infant. I'm not sure I'd want my mom picking out my car for me. Pro-choice would be letting someone make their own choices about their own body.

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #25.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:12 AM EST
                                                                  KyleN

                                                                  It might not work as well if your car 'grew up' and complained about the fuzzy dice. There is another sentient being involved in this choice yet only some people think it's ok to wait and ask them for whatever reason.

                                                                  In this I'm pro-choice. The man in question should choose when he is a man.

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #25.6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:12 AM EST
                                                                  Hugh7

                                                                  @KyleN

                                                                  It might not work as well if your car 'grew up' and complained about the fuzzy dice. There is another sentient being involved in this choice yet only some people think it's ok to wait and ask them for whatever reason.

                                                                  In this I'm pro-choice. The man in question should choose when he is a man.

                                                                  Right. I compare being circumcised with buying a new car and finding that between the factory and my garage someone's taken the hubcaps, wipers, antenna and mirrors. Not essential, but nice to have and MINE, nobody else's. Circumcision is theft. If his foreskin isn't his property, what is? It's certainly property when they sell it.

                                                                    #25.7 - Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:02 PM EST
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    vanwood

                                                                    I'd like to weigh in on this meaty(pun intended) conversation. I am a 51 year old male. Little "vanwood" was surgically enhanced when I was just a wee(pun again) lad. Over the years I have had nothing but good compliments concerning little vanwood's aesthetics. I have seen the opposite male counterparts while watching porn and I have to say that the "slinky" skin condition just looks horrible. If I was a woman, I wouldn't want that thing anywhere near me, let alone invade certain orifices. I say, snip it off and give your tiny motorcycle rider a helmet that he can be proud of.

                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                    Reply#26 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:55 AM EST
                                                                    TD-1557357

                                                                    That's all very well and good, if it is what the owner of the penis chooses, not what the parent chooses for him.

                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                    #26.1 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:00 AM EST
                                                                    boneclinkz

                                                                    I'd like to weigh in on this meaty(pun intended) conversation. I am a 51 year old male. Little "vanwood" was surgically enhanced when I was just a wee(pun again) lad. Over the years I have had nothing but good compliments concerning little vanwood's aesthetics. I have seen the opposite male counterparts while watching porn and I have to say that the "slinky" skin condition just looks horrible. If I was a woman, I wouldn't want that thing anywhere near me, let alone invade certain orifices. I say, snip it off and give your tiny motorcycle rider a helmet that he can be proud of.

                                                                    I don't even understand how people can make this argument without immediately realizing how fundamentally pathetic it is.

                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                    #26.2 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:09 AM EST
                                                                    vanwood

                                                                    But isn't that the role of parents? Verbal communication from a day old infant is not very expressive. I thank mom and pop for exercising good judgment in this case. This argument over what the "helmet/non-helmet" child wants as an option is like debating time travel. Any adult male who is still in the un-cut state can decide his fate. Those already enhanced can either go through life hating his parents or thanking them.

                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                    #26.3 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:12 AM EST
                                                                    boneclinkz

                                                                    Verbal communication from a day old infant is not very expressive.

                                                                    This argument over what the "helmet/non-helmet" child wants as an option is like debating time travel.

                                                                    It's an elective procedure that can be performed at any time. There is nothing time-sensitive about it so this argument holds no water.

                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                    #26.4 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:28 AM EST
                                                                    AMphoto

                                                                    once again! it all comes down to aesthetics. I do not understand how people will cut off an INFANTS body part because it will look better. Why don't we just shove breast implants in baby girls because chances are it will look better? Screw baby teeth! just slap some pearly white veneers in there because it will look better! Just like any other kind of cosmetic surgery, this decision should be left to the individual when they can MAKE that decision.

                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                    #26.5 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:47 AM EST
                                                                    philip munroe

                                                                    circumcision doesn't "give" anything vanwood, it only takes away. coming to terms with that is not easy for those cut in infancy, probably not even possible

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #26.6 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:14 PM EST
                                                                    Nonenone

                                                                    Hey Vanwood-I have had women telling me they hated a "cut" penis and how silly they look and that they have seen messed up ones with flaps of skin still left etc...You might find that you are actually looked at as being the one with the strange looking penis!

                                                                    Not to mention the loss of sensitivity and increased ED!

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #26.7 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:49 PM EST
                                                                    Florida_kes

                                                                    have seen the opposite male counterparts while watching porn and I have to say that the "slinky" skin condition just looks horrible.

                                                                    It looks "horrible" because that's what you're conditioned to see. On the other hand, go someplace else where the men haven't been mutilated there in the first place and guess who's going to look "horrible" then?

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #26.8 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:00 PM EST
                                                                    Ian Blokesworth

                                                                    vanwood wrote "I have seen the opposite male counterparts while watching porn and I have to say that the "slinky" skin condition just looks horrible. If I was a woman, I wouldn't want that thing anywhere near me, let alone invade certain orifices."

                                                                    I've seen some large female labia minora, which are the female form of the same skin that would be the scrotal sack on a male. Some are so big that they look like a small scrotum filled with testicles. They sure aren't pretty, but I don't complain out loud. I'm sure that if I grew up with women that had their labia minora or clitoral hood trimmed, I would also learn to prefer that look. But such a request would be unjust.

                                                                    If you were a woman, you wouldn't really think about it. Of Western countries, only American women have this fixation. And it will fall out of fashion quickly as the current circumcision rate in the USA is already below 50%.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #26.9 - Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:46 PM EST
                                                                    Robert-1463172

                                                                    Gee, love the twisted logic--a diminished penis is now "surgically enhanced"?

                                                                    I have seen that a lot of circumcisers and circumcised men try to redefine things to justify their condition, but this is the funniest yet!

                                                                      #26.10 - Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:41 AM EST
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