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Health insurers help GOP after dalliance with Dems

Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:14 PM EDT
business, politics, us, campaign, insurers, health-insurers, gop-congress
Jim Kuhnhenn, Associated Press
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 2 photos
<p>FILE - In this June 8, 2010 file photo, President Barack Obama listens as Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius speaks in Wheaton, Md. Health insurers flirted with Democrats, supported them with money and got what they wanted: a federal mandate that most Americans carry health care coverage. Now they're backing Republicans, hoping a GOP Congress will mean friendlier regulations. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon, File)</p>

FILE - In this June 8, 2010 file photo, President Barack Obama listens as Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius speaks in Wheaton, Md. Health insurers flirted with Democrats, supported them with money and got what they wanted: a federal mandate that most Americans carry health care coverage. Now they're backing Republicans, hoping a GOP Congress will mean friendlier regulations. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon, File)

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WASHINGTON — Health insurers flirted with Democrats, supported them with money and got what they wanted: a federal mandate that most Americans carry health care coverage. Now they're backing Republicans, hoping a GOP Congress will mean friendlier regulations.

They may get more than they're wishing for.

The so-called individual mandate has provoked tea party conservatives, who see it as an example of big government interference in personal decisions. Now Republican candidates are running on platforms that include repealing the broader health care law. And attorneys general from some 20 states — mainly Republicans — are challenging the mandate as unconstitutional.

"If you ended up repealing that one provision, the whole thing blows up," said Bill Hoagland, the top lobbyist for Cigna Corp. "It doesn't work. The cost would explode."

Still, Cigna, which early last year had been funneling money to Democrats from its political action committee, has shifted from a 50-50 split between the parties to around 70-30 in favor of Republican candidates.

Likewise, about $6 of $10 that Blue Cross Blue Shield Association's PAC doled out from February through June 2009 went to Democrats. By last month, the ratio had shifted — Democrats got only about 35 percent of the insurer's PAC money.

In all, from January through August of 2009, the health insurance industry donated $2.15 million to Democrats and $1.7 million to Republicans, according to monthly figures compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics. Since September of 2009, the industry has donated $2.4 million to Democrats and nearly $3.3 million to Republicans.

The GOP advantage has grown even as Republican candidates call for outright repeal of the health care law.

"This is really an incredible irony," said Robert Laszewski, a former insurance executive turned consultant. "The insurance industry could be fighting with its traditional ally, the Republicans, not to cripple the bill, not to put a bomb inside the thing."

Meanwhile, an Associated Press-GfK poll finds likely voters in the upcoming elections evenly split on whether the law should be scrapped or whether Congress should undertake even bigger changes in the way Americans get their health care. Thirty-seven percent said they want to repeal it. But 36 percent of those polled said they want to revise the law so it does more to change the health care system. Ten percent wanted modifications to narrow the scope of the overhaul. Only 15 percent said they would leave it as it is.

Though the insurers won the insurance mandate they wanted from President Barack Obama and the Democrats, they opposed the overall bill and now say they want to be sure the regulations they face aren't onerous. A Republican-controlled Congress might accomplish that by pressuring the Health and Human Services Department through its control of the department's budget or by subjecting regulators to congressional hearings.

A central worry for insurers is a planned requirement that companies spend a minimum 80 percent of premiums on medical care or rebate the difference to policy holders. They also want a say in defining what would be considered "excessive" premium increases that could expose an insurance company to sanctions.

"What they are looking for is someone who is going to be more sympathetic and supportive on the policy side," said Peter Harbage, a Democratic health policy consultant.

There's more to the shift in political support than a recognition that Republicans are within reach of regaining power. It's also personal.

Some industry officials say they were stung by the fierceness of Democratic efforts to paint them as corporate villains in the debate over the new health care law. Liberals blamed insurers for forcing Obama to back away from a plan for optional publicly financed insurance for people who could not afford traditional coverage.

Then Obama, seeking to rally support for his plan, went on the offensive. Without an overhaul, he wrote in August 2009, "insurance companies will continue to profit by discriminating against sick people."

From then on, political giving by the insurers flipped.

Democrats made it sound like insurance companies were "the scum of the earth," Hoagland said. "That kind of pricked me."

"We are not the ones totally responsible for all the failings of the health care system," he said. "It persuaded me that we were not getting a fair shake."

The attention to regulation is also playing out at the state level, where insurance regulators hold significant sway. Between 2005 and 2008, health insurance companies and health maintenance organizations contributed more than $32 million to state office holders, political parties and ballot measure committees, according to the National Institute on Money in State Politics. The top four insurers — WellPoint, UnitedHealth Group, Humana and Aetna — gave a quarter of that amount.

So far this year, based on available reports, those four firms have given $2.2 million to state candidates or parties, with Republicans getting more than half, Democrats about 40 percent and the rest to ballot initiatives, according to an institute analysis for The Associated Press.

The industry is keeping a wary eye on the law's requirement that states create exchanges where insurers will compete to sell policies to consumers beginning in 2014.

"If your premiums go up too quickly, then you're going to be excluded from the exchange," Harbage said. "Every state is going to be responsible for collecting that data, looking at that data, interpreting it and making some kind of recommendation to HHS."

At the national level, insurers are treading gingerly around the issue of health care repeal, putting them at odds with the Republican base on a fundamental question.

Starting in 2014 the law requires most people to have coverage through an employer or a government program or by buying it themselves. Those who refuse face a tax penalty from the IRS, unless they can show financial hardship.

Insurers argue that if they are going to be forced to issue policies to people in poor health — as the law requires in 2014 — then everybody has to get into the insurance pool. It's exactly the same case the administration is making in court against the state attorneys general.

James Gelfand, health care policy director of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, said he expects insurers to focus on arcane details of the complex law that make a difference to their bottom lines.

"The are going to have a different opinion on how to address health care than the tea party does, and it does hinge on the individual mandate," he said. "That's the biggest difference between the insurance companies and the other parts of the GOP constituency."

© 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (117)
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TennisMom2

The health insurance industry is putting grandma out to pasture, forcing people to choose between health and bankruptcy and kicking sick kids out of their policies. Yet they have millions of dollars to donate to political candidates in hopes they will wink and look the other way?

There is something seriously rotten happening in this country.

  • 22 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:42 PM EDT
luckydog

Amen.

  • 9 votes
#1.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:48 PM EDT
Tom-VermillionOhio

TennisMom2, you've got that right. I'll be back later to comment further. I kinda figured when President Obama said in the early days of health care reform, "...we are going to work within the current system because it's already set up..." (paraphrased), that there were troubling days ahead. Things went 'south' for the President from that day forward. That said, I think he learned something, I know I did. Please rally behind and in front of the President. He is the first President that I have experienced in my lifetime(since Eisenhower) that is truely in support of us ordinary people. Please comment often and everywhere.

  • 11 votes
#1.2 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:19 PM EDT
devilsadvocates

They paid and got what they wanted and now abandon SOME of those they bought. And the (R)egressives want to tell us that big business and the insurance companie's TOOLS have the American people as a whole's INTERESTS at heart. Only as far as they can get OUR LAST dime!!!

  • 6 votes
#1.3 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:27 PM EDT
livid in america-2169490

They got their cookie and now they want their glass of milk. The fact that insurers have changed tactics to try and water down the bill now offers proof that the bill was sound and balanced at the time it was ratified. Their motives are proof that they read something in the bill that they didn't like and want removed to increase their profits. How much do you think your life is worth to an insurer? Too much, apparently.

  • 7 votes
#1.4 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:00 PM EDT
The Devil-1138528

Health insurers flirted with Democrats, supported them with money and got what they wanted: a federal mandate that most Americans carry health care coverage.

So its out that this infringement on individual freedom is yet another law enacted for a special interest by low life parasitic politicians. Any GOP member that I find taking any money from this industry will lose my vote!

  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:19 PM EDT
coach3_us

I'll tell you what's happening in this country, democrats are spineless sissy's afraid to stand up to this right wing nuts with just as much passion as them. Why? Because they're just as corrupt as Republicans are and if they say anything out of step they know they'll be outed just as equally.

  • 1 vote
#1.6 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:21 PM EDT
billy-witchdoctor-com

The health insurance industry is putting grandma out to pasture, forcing people to choose between health and bankruptcy

and if democrats are so much for Senior Citizens why arent they getting a cost of living increase?

  • 1 vote
#1.7 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:25 PM EDT
Old VC

Repeal HeathObombCare before it crashes the economy.

    #1.8 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:34 PM EDT
    Buckeye Voter

    ...and if democrats are so much for Senior Citizens why arent they getting a cost of living increase?

    To make up for it not going down last year.

    Latest CPI Report [pdf]

    At least the Democrats aren't ideologically opposed to Social Security, itself.

    • 5 votes
    #1.9 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:47 PM EDT
    Johnnyjumpup

    If she has no money it says grandma can claim finanacial hardship - but not be insured as she is now. How is it for people now? Can anyonw afford or even qualify for insurance today?????

    • 2 votes
    #1.10 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:36 PM EDT
    Zoolopolis

    Great plan. First make everyone buy your crap then make it as crappy and as expensive as possible.

    They're trying to turn us in serfs to their corporate fiefdom.

    Protect our freedom from Teanut Lords. Vote this Nov. Paid for by Free Men of America.

    • 5 votes
    #1.11 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:48 PM EDT
    Jim-789449

    Yah, it’s called “the politicians win, the people lose”, same old same old, we get shafted by our elected and those whose butts they kiss.

    • 1 vote
    #1.12 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:09 PM EDT
    luckydog

    Repeal HeathObombCare before it crashes the economy.

    Just so you know, SS is currently running a surplus.

    • 4 votes
    #1.13 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:14 PM EDT
    Reply
    DonkeyButt

    I sit here shaking my head every day on Health Care in America. It is an absolute joke. More ~dumbing down~ of the American People in general. Republicans are the ring leader teachers. First off, they (the Healthcare Industry including Insurance and pharmaceutical companies as part of Corporate America), use fear tactics of us getting sick, and the "if" we do, they take your home and everything we own to fill our hearts with fear. The Republican leaders are in bed with Coorporate America. I call it Bull, in the most extreme way. The US is the only country in the World to not have National Health Care. Yet, check out the statistics people!
    Healthcare is 75% of the problem with our economy! No one is retiring, and the competition with labor pay rates is rediculous. We workers have to make enough $$ to pay our health care insurance. What, from working for peanut wages these days? I can't afford to be a Republican any more.

    The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems:
    Rank Country

    1 France
    2 Italy
    3 San Marino
    4 Andorra
    5 Malta
    6 Singapore
    7 Spain
    8 Oman
    9 Austria
    10 Japan
    11 Norway
    12 Portugal
    13 Monaco
    14 Greece
    15 Iceland
    16 Luxembourg
    17 Netherlands
    18 United Kingdom
    19 Ireland
    20 Switzerland
    21 Belgium
    22 Colombia
    23 Sweden
    24 Cyprus
    25 Germany
    26 Saudi Arabia
    27 United Arab Emirates
    28 Israel
    29 Morocco
    30 Canada
    31 Finland
    32 Australia
    33 Chile
    34 Denmark
    35 Dominica
    36 Costa Rica
    37 United States of America

    • 13 votes
    Reply#2 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:03 PM EDT
    Tom-VermillionOhio

    Remember when Obama had the GOP meeting only regarding The Health Care Bill? Republican after Republican stated that the "...US has the best health care system in the world...". John McCain said something 'stupid' as well, and Obama said, "we're not on the campaign trail, John". I would like to review that video clip with transcripts. Need to look it up.

    • 10 votes
    #2.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:27 PM EDT
    Becks72

    To put the people that started two wars, cut taxes for the rich, want to eliminate Social Security increase military spending and refused to extend unemployment will be the true test of how much the voters have been dumbed down. Better get out and vote.

    • 10 votes
    #2.2 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:48 PM EDT
    TennisMom2

    We can condemn the tactics of the GOP with regard to scaring people away from a single-payer plan but unfortunately they are working.

    My daughter works with a guy whose parents are filing for bankruptcy because his dad had cancer. He, the co-worker, collects food stamps. Yet, he listens to Rush Limbaugh every day and votes Republican. "Democrats spend too much money" is his reason.

    I can think of no more eloquent way to express my thoughts except by asking WTF?!

    • 6 votes
    #2.3 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:07 PM EDT
    ADad-1477522

    Wow!!! We're *THAT* high??? Yay...

      #2.4 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:29 PM EDT
      Reply
      mgbirish

      Well this is sure shocking news..LOL Does this really surprise anyone? If you are lower or middle class, if you vote GOP, it will be your demise.

      • 17 votes
      Reply#3 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:13 PM EDT
      NHFishercat

      If you are lower or middle class, if you vote GOP, it will be your demise.

      Why is that? Because of less ENTITLEMENT program spending that takes money away from me and my family when it was myself that actually worked for it? Yes I know, it's you "right" to have my money, I forgot the liberal mantra.

        #3.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:36 PM EDT
        devilsadvocates

        I have tried to educate my friends and family to the tactics o the GreedyObstructionistPanderers of Big Business and the Health Insurance industry but they are unwilling to see them for what they are, Sleesy Mofoers. Guess they have to learn the hard way. Not gonna feel real sorry. My niece is screwing an illegal and my brother just moved in with them after getting booted from his house. He is a lazy POS scamming unemployment.

        • 4 votes
        #3.2 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:41 PM EDT
        ThinksbeforejudgingDeleted
        MytJoe2134

        The Democrats are nowhere near innocent of receiving money from big businesses. If you read the article, you see that the companies shifted from the Dems to the GOP after they got what they wanted: The Mandate to force us all to buy insurance.

        Don't you realize that with the MANDATE, the insurance companies got what they wanted?! Now you need to buy insurance... who do you think from? And who do you think allowed them to do it?!

        Before you buy the hype that Democrats hate business, think about how corrupt the people on the other side are too:

        http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Obama-hires-top-Wall-Street-lobbyist-105434788.html

        http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/10/22/public-employees-union-spends-big-save-dems/

        http://bostonherald.com/news/politics/view.bg?articleid=1290601

        http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/After-news-of-Google-tax-dodges-Obama-raises-money-with-Google-execs-105513473.html

        • 1 vote
        #3.4 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:57 PM EDT
        TennisMom2

        Fish Cat:

        Why is that? Because of less ENTITLEMENT program spending that takes money away from me and my family

        Entitlement, schmitelment. Check out how many banks and corporations didn't pay any tax last year and probably won't this year either. Have a look at corporate and agriculture subsidies. Check out the loopholes for corporations to use while outsourcing jobs overseas. Take a quick gander at the military budget.

        Do you have any idea where your tax money goes? Please do an assessment and get back to us. I doubt you'll find the main culprit to be the mythical 'welfare queen' given to our lexicon by the exalted Ronald Reagan.

        • 8 votes
        #3.5 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:11 PM EDT
        MytJoe2134

        The problem is that the government thinks it's smarter than it is:

        "Check out how many banks and corporations didn't pay any tax last year and probably won't this year either." "Check out the loopholes for corporations to use while outsourcing jobs overseas."- Government gives them these loopholes. Businesses are going to use them, of course. Both sides of the aisle, not just the GOP are guilty of this. Part of it is to give incentive to have companies that employ people to operate in the US. When they close these loopholes and it makes it more profitable to operate in India, they move. It's not business's fault.

        "Have a look at corporate and agriculture subsidies." - The government provides the agriculture industry huge subsidies to over grow corn which is then used to create Corn Syrups (which then attribute to obesity, that the government decries... funny circle) and a smaller amount goes to create ethanol (though the EPA says a certain grass would produce more and cheaper ethanol).

        "Do you have any idea where your tax money goes?" - Our tax money goes into a giant pot from which all of the overinflated projects that Senators scoop up as their personal projects to back and when we get a $5 billion dollar estimate for 5 year, turns into a $15 billion juggernaut that takes 15 years. It goes to the subsidizing of education. It goes to housing and welfare. It goes into a Social Security system that is so mismanaged that when your tax money goes in, the Social Security checks that go out wipe out the account AND a debt to cover the difference is created. And it goes to Medicare and Medicaid.

        And yes it does go to many people who rightfully need the money to help them live, but there is also a lot of waste that goes to cheaters on the system. Those people, illegal and not who go into hospitals without coverage (who can afford it, I don't grudge anyone in need). All the Aunt Zetunia's out there who are drains on our system and never put a dime into it.

        Don't hate business. They play by the rules presented to them, despite how you feel about said rules. But it's the government who are supposed to protect us and make the rules. They are the failure. Are the rules nice? No. But businesses are there to be your friend.

          #3.6 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:40 PM EDT
          mgbirish

          We tried to make "Buy American" rules, We tried to pass a law to take tax incentives away from corporations who moved their production offshore, guess what the GOP filibustered the vote!

          • 4 votes
          #3.7 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:40 PM EDT
          4real?

          Please do an assessment and get back to us. I doubt you'll find the main culprit to be the mythical 'welfare queen' given to our lexicon by the exalted Ronald Reagan.

          Wish I could vote you up twice.

          The problem is you are going to spend money on the bottom teir one way or the other. You can spend it on ending poverty like improving schools, assistance to kids etc, or you can spend it on the problems poverty causes crime, disease etc. Either way society bears a burden for the lowest of its population.

          The sooner people figure out "entitlements" arent about philanthropy. Its about making sure there are more in the middle to bear the wieght of progressing society.

          • 6 votes
          #3.8 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:06 PM EDT
          TennisMom2

          MytJoe, #3.6

          But businesses are there to be your friend.

          I have this image of Joe Camel in my mind, selling cigarettes to teenagers. He was their 'friend' too.

            #3.9 - Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:10 PM EDT
            MytJoe2134

            That was a typo.. Meant to say that they "aren't your friend"...

            My point is that people keep getting on businesses for making money. They only make money because people give it to them. If you don't want a business to make money, don't give them money.

              #3.10 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:36 AM EDT
              MytJoe2134

              @ Mgbirish

              We tried "Buy American", a happy little campaign, but the truth is that we so heavily tax the businesses that we make it more profitable for them to make things overseas and ship them back here. How crazy is it that an American company would find it less costly to their bottom line to have items made in China/ India/ insert foreign country here and put on a ship and sent back to America?

              The Made in America label is nice, but our government never helped us in it. The only recourse that Government thinks about for making money is to tax the businesses that are here and when companies leave the country and the revenue lessens, they raise the taxes. The big money companies with just use loopholes or outright move to lighter taxed countries if and when you close those loopholes. Companies are about making money and to do that, you need to try to lighten your taxes. Do you fill out your tax return and leave things out to pay more to the government? Of course not.

              Why has Congress never (or at least rarely) thought that if they lessen taxes and bring more companies back here, that they would make more money instead of taking fewer companies and taxing them heavily?

                #3.11 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:45 AM EDT
                mgbirish

                Seems the problem is they get better tax breaks and incentives to offshore production, doesn't make any sense!

                • 1 vote
                #3.12 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:11 AM EDT
                MytJoe2134

                Part of the economic issue is that China purposely undervalues their own currency to undercut the world market. The "Powers that Be" have been trying to get them to make their money worth what it should be so the playing field can be leveled. Unfortunately, our government has mortgaged our future so much to China, that we're in a stalemate... China can't crush us economically by calling our debt or it would mean the ruin of their entire economy as well and we can't push China or they will bring us both down.

                Outsourcing to India is already slowing as their economy is coming around. You'll find that there aren't so many companies going this route anymore.

                http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/After-news-of-Google-tax-dodges-Obama-raises-money-with-Google-execs-105513473.html

                http://www.bostonherald.com/news/politics/view.bg?articleid=1288443

                It, of course, doesn't help when our government is so entrenched with business that they no longer perform their duty in the checks and balances.

                  #3.13 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:54 AM EDT
                  Reply
                  knight-403465

                  "They (insurance companies) are going to have a different opinion on how to address health care than the tea party does, and it does hinge on the individual mandate," he said. "That's the biggest difference between the insurance companies and the other parts of the GOP constituency."

                  Insurance companies want mandated coverage and then other concessions too, if the Republicans take over Congress.

                  • 10 votes
                  #4 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:32 PM EDT
                  TennisMom2

                  Knight, that's why we need to get rid of insurance companies altogether.

                  • 7 votes
                  #4.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:12 PM EDT
                  knight-403465

                  I agree - Single Payer would cut the costs the most.

                  Why was it never even scored by the CBO??? Because if Americans saw how much it would save the conservatives would be sunk.

                  • 6 votes
                  #4.2 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:52 PM EDT
                  Pacific Northwest Blogger

                  Why was it never even scored by the CBO??? Because if Americans saw how much it would save the conservatives would be sunk.

                  Answer

                  Single-payer health care bill introduced in US Senate
                  By Anjanette Riley
                  Arizona Capital Times
                  March 30, 2009

                  Senate members are considering a bill that would replace the country's existing employer-based health care model with a single-payer form similar to the models used in Europe.

                  Sen. Bernie Sanders, Democrat from Vermont and sponsor of the American Health Security Act of 2009, announced his intentions to file the bill earlier this month during the president's health care reform summit. It was filed March 25.

                  The system would guarantee health care coverage to every citizen. Benefits would include funding for primary care, mental health care and dental. Benefit packages would be managed on the state-level, similar to the operation of Medicaid.

                  The measure would also create a National Health Service Corps to combat the nation's physician shortage by training an additional 24,000 health professionals.

                  The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the measure would save the country $400 billion annually by reducing the number of uninsured and removing the administrative costs of other government-sponsored health care programs already on the books.

                  • 7 votes
                  #4.3 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:09 PM EDT
                  Pacific Northwest Blogger

                  Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday withdrew his single-payer healthcare amendment after Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) initiated a procedural maneuver to shipwreck the measure.


                  "The day will come, although I recognize it’s not today, when the U.S. Congress will have to vote to stand up to … all those who profit every single year off of human sickness,” Sanders said. "That day will come."

                  Source

                  • 7 votes
                  #4.4 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:15 PM EDT
                  TennisMom2

                  PacNorBlog:

                  But... But... Has Sarah Palin seen this?! What about her Death Panels? She'll be so disappointed. She will refudiate a single-payer plan unless there are Death Panels.

                  /sarc

                  • 4 votes
                  #4.5 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:03 PM EDT
                  MytJoe2134

                  What Sanders wanted to say was that the time will come when the government squeezes out the Insurance Companies and take over complete control of taxpayers money that comes in.

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.6 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:31 PM EDT
                  knight-403465

                  MyJoe

                  We would be raped less by the Government than we are being raped now by the Insurance Companies. There is too much money involved to let for profit giant corporations do whatever they want.

                  • 5 votes
                  #4.7 - Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:50 AM EDT
                  TennisMom2

                  Myt, if the government took in the same money as Big Insurance does, they'd have a lot more to spend on actual health care for people. They could drop the enormous overhead it costs our society to have these insurance companies interfering in our health care.

                  • 3 votes
                  #4.8 - Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:12 PM EDT
                  DonkeyButt

                  And to think that only 3 to 4 Months a year at the price of war in the Mid-East would fully finance National Health Care. We can find 4 times more money to blow the crap out of a foreign problem, or the dreaded ~Muslims~, than take care of our own people, and mind our own damn business. And for that matter, what has Israel really ever done for the US? We are risking our lives, spending our tax money, and living like second class citizens. By helping Israel, we are putting our own nation at risk. Is the Mid-East really worth it, and to think of trying to "Capitalize" the remaining Mid-East Governments to match that of the USA's. What a joke in trying to save their butts. The USA is only 200+ years old, so I doubt they will listen. And, if the screw up, Israel will bomb their asses just like the USA bombs their asses. Bin laden himself said a quote "I WILL BREAK THE USA FINANCIALLY". Looks like his plan is working, and the Republican plans are cadering to him very well. We need to get out of that war and leave those people alone. If they won't sell us some oil, Canada has a whole bunch of it. That's a joke too, cause the Mid_East has nothing but oil to contribute to the rest of the world. What, does anyone think they won't sell it, war or no war - it's all they got. And, who ownes Iraq's oil supplies these days? Mobile Exxon maybe? How much did they pay for that oil as the prices of our own gasoline go up.

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.9 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:26 PM EDT
                  MytJoe2134

                  Knight: The Corporations can't do whatever they want. The government is supposed to protect us from them by creating rules and laws. That is what should have happened with this HC bill, but they didn't do that, though they had the super majority in congress to do it. I'm disappointed in the government. They are letting the healthcare industry write their ticket instead of being their check to the balance. What's the point of oversight commitees when they are corrupted by lobbyists? And you think the gov't won't be corrupted? Instead of payouts being sifted through the insurance companies, you'd have money going straight to the gov't!

                  TennisMom- You don't think the government takes in an much money as the insurance companies?! Our gov't takes in Trillions of dollars a year in taxes in order to split it as they see fit. When we're all giving our tax money to the governement and Healthcare gets it's share of the pie, do you think it will be a big slice or a small slice every year? And when a politician feels like there's something that needs to be funded a little more, where do you think that money is going to come from? They already drained the Social Security system by having access to those monies that were supposed to be held in trust to us, but now I may not have that money for my retirement because they never fixed it. The worst thing anyone could have said is "Let's pass it and fix it later..." When benefits are handed out, politicians are loathe to change them and risk losing a voting block. See how Welfare Reform and Social Security Reform are mentioned almost in passing by many politicians because the fear of God is put into the constituents in the area by the opponent who says that the other guy wants to eradicate the way of life people are accustomed to.

                  DonkeyButt - Actually, Obama has spent more money in 2 years in office than the entire cost of the wars over 10 years.

                  http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/10/national-debt-obama.html

                  As for the oil, we need the middle east to keep it open to keep the cost down. Remember, in the late 70s-Early 80s when the middle east held up the oil, it drove the US into basically a freeze. That wasn't just gas for cars. That included the huge money in petrolium products and plastics. The oil industry isn't going away anytime soon. And we'll be done with them as soon as the oil is gone. Then they'll get mad and attempt to push out and then they'll spend all their money and have to find a way to be productive with their money, rather than building designer islands like in Dubai!! Also, we're more than happy to have them use up their oil before we start to really tap ours... It'll be worth more money when we're the last people to sell it!

                  And we protect Israel because no one else will. The Israelis were a valuable ally against the Ottomans during World War 1 and were promised land after the conflict, but were stiffed by the French and English who split up the territiory as they saw fit. They continued to help after World War 2 and fought openly to gain the land they felt was theres. People shame them, but they fought to gain their land. And many times, they have fought off enemies single handedly to keep their territory.

                  Bin Laden would like to break us financially, we'll see...

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.10 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:52 PM EDT
                  mgbirish

                  Tom Coburn (R-Okla.)

                  I don't care if he is a M.D. or whatever, this guy is a nut case, he needs mental therapy!

                  He is getting big bucks from somebody to act stupid and be a one person filibuster, what a piece of work!!!

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.11 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:13 PM EDT
                  DonkeyButt

                  MyTJoe - I think it is time to move on. Find alternative fuel sources. Some day, I guess Oil will be gone for everyone and everywhere. I not a geologist. Oil will always be an issue, but this country should have been smart enough years ago to figure it out. Bombing their asses does not breed negotiations to get cheao oil either. I still say oil, and the oil industry is a large part of the ~Corporate America~ machine. It is just an extension of the cool aid. So, why is diesel more expensive than gasoline now? They used to say it took more to refine regular gasoline, thus diesel was cheaper. Lies, lies, amd more lies. Oh, it was also very convienient for them to get free Iraq oil after bombing the place, but yet our gasoline went to almost $5 a Gallon. This was so they could lower the gas to $2.75 a gallon and make us feel good about it. It is the same game the Medical industry uses. They charge way over the actual charge to your insurance, and then you pay a co-pay, and some it they supposidly eat it on. All lies and BS.

                  As far as Obama spending money on the war. Don't even go there, after the original Bush and Bush Jr.'s / Chaney's war machine teams got done with this country. Obama got handed an absolute mess that any 4 year term will not repair. What about all that bail-out money that Bush initiated for non other than the mortage companies? Bush had crumpled the economy to where there was no alternatives to saving a glimmer of hope financially for this country, and possibly the entire World, as it was put to us public people. Where in the hell did all that banking industry money go to? And you blame it on to Obama. It started way way way before Obama, with Reganomics.

                  We protect Israel to protect our interrests in the Middle East. And, to promote Capitalism in the Middle East. Plus, Israelis are damn good for Wall Street. And, as a plus, maybe keep the oil flowing cheap to ~Coporate America~ through the act of showing military power. Basically the brute force concept, instead of an intelligent diplomatic approach with the other Mid-East countries. I don't give a crap for Bin-Ladin either, but I can see why he is pissed. Remember the victims of the World Trade Center all got how much $$?? I think a Million a piece for their contribution and service to the country. (Most were Isralie working at the WTC) I have not a problem with that payment, especially to the fire fighters and the like. It was horrible for those people. But ask yourself, how much did Bush pay to the service men who have given their life for this country? I think not a million dollars. And, they suffered just as much.

                    #4.12 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:55 PM EDT
                    MytJoe2134

                    You can keep going back further and further to blame other people for what the current administrations do... You can blame Jimmy Carter to the economic crap fest that Reagan took over.

                    Reagan offered in a huge period of economic boom, due mostly to the production that he boosted (thank you to the Soviets for offering COMPETITION, which benefits everyone... ).

                    Bush 1 was a lame duck and beat up Saddam and did some other beneficial and very ecological things I can't think of right now. He was actually the most ecological president since Teddy Roosevelt.

                    Clinton saw the Stock Market reach over 10,000 for the first time in history, but presided over the tech boom and finally the bust. When he left, the market was dipping below 10,000.

                    Bush 2 started an unpopular war after rallying the country during it's darkest hour probably since the war of 1812. Remember also that just before the 9-11 attacks that the market was diving from Clinton's last days, during this time the real estate boom was just happening, and like the tech boom, everyone was happy while their houses boomed in equity due to false inflation brought on by Fannie and Freddie, presided over by Barney Frank among others.

                    Frank went so far as to say there was no boom while it was happening. The smarter people on Wall Street knew better and realized they didn't want to be left holding all these sub-prime mortgages so they sold them on the market. When the boom came to earth, Wall Street was blamed. They were just doing what they needed to survive... Like I always say: Washington always thinks they are smarter than they are. When Gov't try to bully certain sectors, all they do is find the loopholes.

                    Alternative fuel sources are currently being developed, but what many, including the president, don't realize is that it's not ready yet. The Windmills are highly ineffective and way more expensive than people realize. Not to mention that you need to take up incredible amounts of land to put up enough windmills to mitigate the lack of efficiency. Try the idea of putting a wind farm in the cape cod sound. How is this going to affect the wildlife, including migrating whales. Or the idea of sitting a machine in salt water?! I wonder what lubricates those gears in there... hmmm? The technology is being worked on, but it's coming. Nothing is as good to use right now as gas. Ethanol is almost there, but it burns too hot in higher blends to be kept in regular gas tanks (E15 was recently OK'd in cars built after 2007), so you'd be asking the entire auto industry to redo their new cars to take these and higher blends. That's a lot of money and if the auto industry wasn't bailed out, they could have started from ground zero to build newer efficient autos. Also the EPA is upset with the producers as the US gov't subsidizes the corn makers to over produce corn to make this ethanol (as well as high fructose corn syrup which makes us fatter...), but they state that if they make the ethanol from Sward Grass (sp) it is more efficient and has less impact. You'd just belooking at the corn industry becoming the new oil industry...

                    Electic cars are almost there as well, but just think of what happens when the battery is done... Did you also know that there is an incredible amount of pollution that goes into the creation of those batteries?

                    I don't think Israel helps anyone do anything in the Middle East. The only think they all agree with in unison there is that they all hate Israel and want to see it destroyed. None of those countries even acknowlege Israel as a country, except Egypt. It's purely hypocritical, but many of those countries keep the money flowing because they realize that money makes the world go round. They've been able to do alot with that money. I've seen pictures of Kuwait pre-Iraq invasion where people were walking around with bails of money. Bin Laden's dad was a wealthy construction guy (and friend to Bush Sr's dad, I believe...) who basically kicked out Osama, who grew up in a European money-styled life and fell out of favor with it. He was more than happy when the US was giving weapons to the Mujahadeen to fight the Soviets.

                    I'm not sure of the lawsuits for the 9-11 victims. The large class action I'm aware of is the one that will pay out a lot of money to those who qualify due to decreased health and rising bills. Of course they had to decide if they wanted to go on this class action or wait for the gov't to pass the 9-11 Rescuers Bill... they couldn't do both. I could only say that people may have crammed the courts with suits against Al-Queda and Bin Laden, but any rewards would have to be paid out from frozen or secured assets tied back to the group or Bin Laden. Otherwise, the rewards are largely just figureheads. I also don't know anything about the majority of those being rewarded being Israeli...

                    Soldiers do get a smaller amount of pay back from the government for their service. The only think I could think of there is that:

                    a. Soldiers (should know they) may die.

                    b. There's a lot of them and to pay them all for their service what they deserve would bancrupt the government.

                    When you add in the chance that they may be moved around all over the world at the drop of a hat, they basically live around anything that could kill them at any moment. It's crazy, but the sudden deaths caused by the WTC collapses is a blip when compared to the amount of soldiers that die every year, including during peacetime... it's just a larger cross section.

                    The irony is that there are only slightly more GIs that have been killed in the Middle East than there were people who perished in the WTCs. It says alot about the way we wage war compared to what happened in Vietnam, the next most recent major war. If anything, this would make more of a case to why not pay more to those who lose their lives in service to our countries...

                    WTC: 2,752

                    Vietnam: 58,267 (total armed forces KIA and missing)

                    Iraq: 4,404 (as of May)

                    Afghanistan: 1,025

                      #4.13 - Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:28 PM EDT
                      DonkeyButt

                      I have to give you credit MytJoe. You stated astounding facts. The conversion of these facts amounts to ups and downs over much time no doubt. On one hand, it all makes sense. On the other hand, it makes no sense. In all of it, where is there any mention of the Middle Class worker? Wars, Middle East, Stock Markets, and Soldiers. Those are all Republican issues for the most part, and the results of flounders of Presidents and Congress for years. But, for the regular old Middle Class tradesman and laborer - their days are done with the breaking of the Unions, and the addition of cheap Chinese labor. So, are you saying that if Corporate America grows even larger, then they will create new employment in the USA? I think not. If they were so concerned about the Middle Class they would start making their move now to abandon over seas outsourcing. They would endorse NHC to be able to give Middle Class more buying power, instead of paying rediculous priced Health Care Insurance policies for their families. I believe it was a Republican Abraham Lincoln who had a war over slavery. Hiring Chinese child labor to make more profit is no different. You see, in your reply, I see the accuracy and the fundamental truths. But, none of it means a thing to the average worker, who amount to 80% of the population. If the Republican machine and Corporate America wanted to help, it sounds like they could have already. They simply don't care about the Middle Class. Not everyone in America can own their own business. Not everyone in America receives an inheritance. A lot of people have to work by the sweat of their brow to get anything in life, and the Republicans are NOT the only people who do this. I will admit, the Republican's have better hair cuts though on TV though. At this genure, they remind me of a Leopard in a Kittens fur. I used to be a Republican myself for years. I didn't want to be one who supported all the social services for those who don't or won't work. I drank the coolaide. Then I thought about all of it, and how this country has ended up and decided that I can't afford to be a Republican any longer. They are for the Rich, and could care less about the less fortunate. Yet, I am a very fortunate person - now speaking for those that are not.

                        #4.14 - Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:39 PM EDT
                        MytJoe2134

                        Ironically, one of my favorite saying is: I wish I were rich enough to be a liberal! If you think about many of the policies that are more liberal, they work great for those people on the top of the food chain. Those who run governments never complain about Socialist style governments!

                        Firstly, the middle class has been dying off since Reagan finished his terms in office. Since that time flip-flopping of parties for both Presidents and Congress both ways have led to this. Each Presidents' policies since that time have been rather crap... rather than work on some sort of sustainability, we've taken to grabbing at whims and then damning the world when they don't work out. Such as the Tech Boom and the Real Estate Boom. The people who are always mortgaged against are the middle class of the US. Things like NAFTA and the under valuing of Chinese Currency have put the pressure on the middle class as now we need to compete with labor in other countries.

                        There's little proof to me of breaking unions in this country... One of the things that led to the Auto Bailouts was the fact that the companies couldn't get the Unions to budge on their contracts to create solubility of their business. Ford's employees agreed to work it out, and as a result they have come through the crisis without using bailout money. It's not always the business that can be unreasonable, and I find that few unions really do anything anymore for their employees except try to get them the highest value contract they can without havnig to budge on the city or state government's requests (Read up on MA's fight with the firefighters to just get drug testing after 2 firefighters died on the job and had high levels of drugs in their systems...). I'm not a big supporter of unions, as they are the same racket that has been around since the 1800s and have never adapted to the times and as they are a simple voting block (basically grease the palms of the union head and the rest generally follow their union...) Somehow the Democrats have been locked in as the stringent supporters of unions through the years, so almost no matter what, Unions will support them.

                        I am saying that we do need more companies in the US, corporations or smaller. Companies hire people... without companies, people don't work. If people don't work, money is not made and it isn't spent again in the economy. It's cyclical... people earn money, people spend money... supply and demand. You can't mix the "Republican machine" and "Corporate America" anymore. There are many more corporations, many very large and the largest, who are now far more left leaning. I read an article the other day which spoke to the coastal based companies tend to be more liberal and their CEOs tend to have graduated schools on the coasts (Read Massachusetts and California schools)... Companies such as Google and Microsoft are two examples...

                        http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_16403578

                        The trick to bringing the businesses back, who cares what they're making or doing (within legal limits!) is to incentivise their return. Instead of punishing those who work overseas, give them a real break (not the finding loopholes stuff, but a legit cut to the taxes)... You need to show them that we want everything here. You are correct, not everyone can start their own business. But jobs are never created by poor people. With an expansion of business in the US, we will have more jobs. Corporate or otherwise, we just need people who will hire people.

                        Proof that neither side sued very well for "the People" was shown through the NHC debate as instead of adding all that fluff, they could have just opened the interstate commerce, only the Congress can approve this. In Massachusetts, we used to have a monopoly on our auto insurance, with the state setting the rates to be charged. For years, we were trying to get more providers in here. Do you know how aggrivating it was to see all these ads and lower rates in Rhode Island, but we couldn't get the Gecko here?! They eventually relented here and now our rates are lower (though they still only allowed a couple of more companies here... so not that low!) What wasn't reported very well, was that there were a few other plans and ideas being floated around. Rep Ryan (R-WI) actually hammered Obama and the rest of the Congressional representatives when they had their round table discussion, which was meant to just be a token meeting to show the "bi-partisan-ness" of the bill. Ryan's plan was CBO certified (and able to be read in far shorter time than the passed bill) and his bill was certified to lower the deficit and turn a profit and lower costs and cover more people. But because the wrong people would have been credited (i.e. - Republicans) we were given the inferior bill.

                        Not everyone in the US receives an inheritance, but Bush's tax cut to the inheritance tax was allowed to run out by Obama. George Steinbrenners kids got a tax break on that (the IRS even asked them to send them some of the money...), but my mother in law missed out because she died in the wrong year... Also, our Sen John Kerry, former Presidential hopeful, made all his money the old fashioned way, he married a Heinz. Sen. Ted Kennedy, lived off the Kennedy trust from his father. These are a pair of our liberal lions from Massachusetts. They never had to lift a finger in their lives, but found themselves making the most noise in favor of taxing and spending other people's money.

                        The Bush tax cuts that the Democrats want you to believe were only for the rich, actually lowered the tax rates for all spectrums of the taxpayers in the US. Now, the Dems are trying to manipulate one without the other. (All said, I would rather a flat tax than the convoluted system in place now...)

                        There's nothing wrong with leading a fortunate life. There are those who would try to make you feel like you were wrong for being such.

                        I realize that you read me as being a Republican, but I am actually Undeclared. I find that many people claim they're Independant, but really they're just Democrat-lite. I am more conservative, I'd like to conserve more of what I make and what's mine!! There's no cool-aid here... I would ask that you look more closely at what's out there. Ignore the nice haircuts on both sides (and conversley the bad hair days!!) and look for the guy who spends $12 on a Regular cut!!

                          #4.15 - Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:25 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          magnoliaave

                          If you vote for anyone other than Republican, it will be your demise. The Democrats have sent us on a star studded trip to the Moon!

                          • 2 votes
                          Reply#5 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:33 PM EDT
                          LizLiz

                          If you vote for anyone other than Republican, it will be your demise.

                          Please explain how.

                          • 5 votes
                          #5.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:35 PM EDT
                          ThinksbeforejudgingDeleted
                          knight-403465

                          Thinks

                          don't forget the bailout of the TBTF banks!

                            #5.3 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:54 PM EDT
                            LizLiz

                            sending more jobs overseas

                            Both parties.

                            getting us involved in more wars of choice

                            Both parties and provided by republicans.

                            lying to us about intelligence data to start those wars...

                            Republicans.

                            Need I keep on going, LizLiz?

                            Yes.

                              #5.4 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:33 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              Kingofbeer

                              Corporations and special interest groups should not be able to bribe our Congress in the form of campaign contributions! So sick of this crap!

                              ONLY individual citizens should be able to make campaign contributions with the current cap. This is out of hand!

                              Not to mention the secret contributions the Republicans receive from foreign interests.

                              BROKEN!

                              • 12 votes
                              Reply#6 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:34 PM EDT
                              NHFishercat

                              Not to mention the secret contributions the Republicans receive from foreign interests.

                              Right... right... I'm sure no Dems to that... *Rolls Eyes*

                              • 1 vote
                              #6.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:38 PM EDT
                              ThinksbeforejudgingDeleted
                              Reply
                              oneforall

                              That's another fine mess you've gotten us into, President Obama. First, you require that we all buy insurance from private vendors and then the Republicans come along and remove all of the protections, leaving us with nothing but a mandate and really really expensive insurance premiums. Nice work on getting that mandate passed. Gee, I can't believe the insurance companies went along with it, not. Not cool, not cool at all.

                                Reply#7 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:41 PM EDT
                                Fifth Horseman

                                Rich people, corporations, and other governments have no problem of pouring money into Congress. If you run for office you need money to support you. Many causes in the USA have been backed by foreign governments that seek to influence how the country is run. It is not just buying the President of the USA, but a lot of people below him. Starting and controlling a grass root operation can be done for a few thousands. Putting money up for a few dozens spread around the country is a drop in the bucket when you consider the wealth to be made. If I was a producer of a product that I want to sell to the fools in the USA and I was not produceing that in the USA, but in my country of XYZ

                                  Reply#8 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:42 PM EDT
                                  WalterPaul

                                  Ok, where are HC companies getting so much excess money that they can contribute X-large sums to state office holders, political parties and ballot measure committees. Tell me.

                                  • 5 votes
                                  Reply#9 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:48 PM EDT
                                  jabbausaf

                                  Profit from ripping us off.

                                  • 4 votes
                                  #9.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:58 PM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  Question It

                                  A central worry for insurers is a planned requirement that companies spend a minimum 80 percent of premiums on medical care or rebate the difference to policy holders. They also want a say in defining what would be considered "excessive" premium increases that could expose an insurance company to sanctions.

                                  Does anyone know what is the minimum percentage of the premium insurance companies must spend on health care is right now? I don't remember this information ever being talked about while this health care bill was being passed. I have felt that this Admin has done a very poor job on educating us the voters on what we can expect from this bill. If it truly is a good thing why aren't they speaking about how it's a win for everyone? BTW there is no sarcasm intended with these questions.

                                    Reply#10 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:53 PM EDT
                                    ThinksbeforejudgingDeleted
                                    oneforall

                                    A central worry for insurers is a planned requirement that companies spend a minimum 80 percent of premiums on medical care or rebate the difference to policy holders. They also want a say in defining what would be considered "excessive" premium increases that could expose an insurance company to sanctions.

                                    They also want a say in defining what is medical care by including such things as all administrative costs, salaries and bonuses. Basically they want to insure that they make 20% profit off of all premiums. As long as they insure everyone, and as long as they can define their own terms, they will always win. Republicans almost always do exactly what the insurance companies want.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #10.2 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:13 PM EDT
                                    Reply
                                    jabbausaf

                                    The Democrats should have never dealt with these scum-sucking vampires.

                                    Thanks to the love affair with the health insurance companies, we have a mandate but no public option. We are required to purchase private for-profit health care. And they paint it like it's a bad thing.

                                    If the Republicans get into office, look for a revision of the health care bill that keeps the mandate but gets rid of any regulation or control on private health care to actually provide what you pay for.

                                    • 4 votes
                                    Reply#11 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:57 PM EDT
                                    ThinksbeforejudgingDeleted
                                    LizLiz

                                    He should have learned from Hillary Clinton's mistake in the 90's. There is no reasoning with conservatives who put profit before people.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #11.2 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:35 PM EDT
                                    mgbirish

                                    If the Republicans get into office, look for a revision of the health care bill that keeps the mandate but gets rid of any regulation or control on private health care to actually provide what you pay for.

                                    De-regulate ='s GOP's middle name, and all but the rich get screwed, thanks Reagan!! Wait it will trickle down.

                                      #11.3 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:24 PM EDT
                                      DonkeyButt

                                      Agree to all, exactly. I was talking to a co-worker today who is 72 yrs old. She is still working to keep her health insurance. Still has to pay a hefty premium of $400 a Month out of her pay, with a ton of Co-Pays. I wish the term "Co-Pay" was up someone's South end that invented it, instead of it becoming reality. The company in this case also pays 2/3rds of the premium. So, $1200 a Month to the blood sucking insurance company for premiums every Month for one person. The answer is NOT privatized insurance. It is National Health Care. I honestly believe most of our economical hard ships would be solved had it passed, dropping all forms of health insurance. Think of the Baby Boomers now who can't retire and let the younger work force in to work because of it. Think of the Republican's reverened "small business", who can't afford to offer their employees any health care insurance to speak of. Think how much farther our wages would go in buying power if we did away with it. How can anyone with a lick of sense stick up for needing "Health Insurance". I mean, "Health", and "Insurance" are always in the same sentence. It is crazy - we do not need health insurance at all. Republicans are worried that it will somehow ~change~ their Coverage. Drop insurance and turn it over to regulated National Health Care system, and no one will have to worry about it. That is what the rest of the World does, and we are only #37 in best health care World Wide. Health Insurance companies can eat my shorts! And the Hospitals too for that matter. Let them be the ones to lobby to get paid by the government. If we would all drop our health insurance, they would beg for National Health Care I bet. The lady above said the final bill for her husbands knee replacement was $48,000. If you have insurance, they charge the most as you all know.

                                        #11.4 - Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:52 PM EDT
                                        Reply
                                        Joe Mont

                                        "We have to pass it to find out what's in it". That says it all. Damn Fools.

                                          Reply#12 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:02 PM EDT
                                          jumpshotjarrod

                                          "We have to pass it to find out what's in it".

                                          No, that doesn't say it all. If you look at the words before and after that exert from Pelosi, it's rather obvious that Pelosi was simply saying that there's no way to no how legislation is going to play out in real time. That's common sense.

                                          For example, I doubt that President Bush expected the Iraq War to play out the way it did after the measure was passed to go to war (At least, I hope he didn't). That decision could have been debated until everyone was blue in the face.... that still doesn't give a guarantee as to how the decision was going to play out. Congress would need a time machine for that....

                                          Pelosi made rather simple statement - that HCR could be debated for years, but that no one would have any idea about how it would play out in real time until it was actually legislation.

                                          This article has NOTHING to do with that. The article is discussing how we could potentially be abandoning key components of the plan in mid flight.... and specifically how health insurers are hoping for this and doing everything they can to ensure it. Because if they succeed, then they may have gotten both a mandate for more clustomers AND the freedom to screw those custmoers at will.

                                          • 5 votes
                                          #12.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:26 PM EDT
                                          Joe Mont

                                          spin spin spin. 2000+pages and not a clue how it might work when implemented? Ridiculous or wishful thinking?

                                            #12.2 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:51 PM EDT
                                            Question It

                                            that's a Fancy Nancy quote, right?

                                              #12.3 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:57 PM EDT
                                              jumpshotjarrod

                                              spin spin spin. 2000+pages and not a clue how it might work when implemented? Ridiculous or wishful thinking?

                                              Nice loaded question.

                                              Certainly, people can make predictions and projections... but again, there's simply no way to know for sure until it actually happens. Think about the legislative failures throughout history - do you think the prohibition Congress thought that their bill would work out in a such a way? How about the Congress of 2001? Do you think they planned for their policies to turn surpluses into massive deficits?

                                              • 4 votes
                                              #12.4 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:06 PM EDT
                                              MytJoe2134

                                              No one has ever put out a bill so big that it couldn't be understood or be explained by those lawmakers who put it out.

                                              Of course they're going to send out all the happy little bits of the plan, but it will be felt in the wallets of the taxpayers... note that only 48% of Americans actually pay taxes now. That's unsustainable.

                                                #12.5 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:34 PM EDT
                                                LizLiz

                                                note that only 48% of Americans actually pay taxes now.

                                                Cut that tired, lame, bull. !00% of Americans pay taxes even illegal aliens. Buy cigarettes? Taxes. Buy a car? Taxes. Buy gas? Taxes. Buy a house? Taxes. Purchase jeans? Taxes. Get a paycheck? Taxes. Rent a movie? Taxes.

                                                No one has ever put out a bill so big that it couldn't be understood or be explained by those lawmakers who put it out.

                                                Learn how to read and comprehend. How did we become so lazy that we complain and expect the government to tell us bedtime stories with our bills and laws. You want to know whats in it? It's all on-line. Knock yourself out.

                                                Health security for ALL!!!

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #12.6 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:40 PM EDT
                                                MytJoe2134

                                                We couldn't read it before it was passed because our "transparent" (Obama's word) government decided it could accomplish more behind closed doors and not put the bill on the internet as promised. The bill they put online was released it 2 days before the vote was made. If you read anything before, it was most likely an unfinished product. They knew they were putting out garbage.

                                                Read it an weep... This is just a sample of all the wrongs perpetrated:

                                                http://www.redstate.com/ben_domenech/2010/10/25/congressional-report-obamacare-costs-america-nearly-800000-jobs/

                                                http://m.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/the_creeping_chill_of_obamacare_nwrteGSbuGsFbydKoItWTO?fbb=r5b933d2d&refid=0

                                                These are just two of the more recent articles. Every time the Congressional Budget Office gets deeper in the bill, they find something else in there. We already have corporations like McDonalds and Boeing cutting their health insurance coverage becasue the of the expensive and unreasonable costs... There's no health security.

                                                I'm sorry that you just want to avoid the FACT that 48% of citizens in the US don't pay their state and federal income taxes. That just happens to be tons of cash that doesn't go into the system. OK, then, we'll just forget that we're missing out on millions to billions of dollars every year. The money the government uses is finite. When you prevent them from utilizing that money, it gets pulled from somewhere else. Your point is only partially correct. You're being ignorant.

                                                You're the like a movie chase scene!! You caught the bad guy at the end, but you destroyed the guy's fruit stand, smashed the expensive plate glass window, spilled the old lady's groceries, and wrecked 6 parked cars to do it... Oh, but you forgot to read him his Miranda Rights, so he gets free at the end anyways!!

                                                Here's a news flash for ya: IT DOESN'T COVER EVERYONE!!

                                                  #12.7 - Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:42 PM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  jumpshotjarrod

                                                  Great... we get the worst of both worlds. The ONLY way that a mandate works is if health insurers are strictly regulated.

                                                  So, we get the mandate...... and if GOP takes control, we get regulations relaxed so that the private sector can rake mandated people over the coals.

                                                  AWESOME..... *sigh*

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  Reply#13 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:21 PM EDT
                                                  David-1830107

                                                  HCR should of been thought out an planed and if you look at the top 20 above. Most of those are going broke. England now is thinking about changing to for profit. France is Broke. This HCR rush job is just horrid.

                                                    Reply#14 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:32 PM EDT
                                                    Gooser

                                                    Universal Healthcare is abhorrent.

                                                    Some residents in Canadian towns have to win a lottery to get an appointment with a physician.

                                                    People languish in 'cues' in England and die while waiting for simple procedures.

                                                    Costs actually go up, not down.

                                                    Cass Susstein wants to use the 'whole lives' concept to focus caregiving on people who contribute the most. Stripping care from infants and the elderly.

                                                    WAKE UP PEOPLE. Evildoers are pulling the string and calling themselves "Progressive." If that is progress, then I proudly count myself amongst the (R)egressives, as someone put it earlier.

                                                    The healthcare reform that this country really needs is tort reform, but you won't hear it from Democrats because of their plentiful contributions from ... you guessed it ... trial lawyers.

                                                    Obama and his cronies want to enslave you to a system where they provide everthing for you and you are trapped, neccessarily voting for them to preserve your job, your healthcare, even your broadband connection whose content will be carefully filtered based on what they want you to hear.

                                                    This November is our first chance to Hope to stop the Change. Obama promised he would fundamentally transform the United States of America, the problem is he wants to change it into Stalinist Russia or Maoist China. Is that what you want? Millions died under both of those regimes.

                                                    These people are Fabian Socialists. Look that one up, do a little research on that group. It'll scare the hell out of you. They'll gladly cleanse the population of defectives so that the world can be a better place.

                                                    You Obama supporters better hope you don't have any defects, because Susstein really supports the idea of putting sterilants in the drinking water. (No, really, look it up.) Are you down with that?

                                                    These people are okay with "Partial-birth abortions." Partial-birth abortions are a fun little murder loophole where a baby is half-born (i.e. the head pops out) and the 'doctor' takes a pair of scissors and plunges them into the base of the skull where the spinal cord attaches and chops everything up, killing the innocent child. Are these the kind of people you want making decisions on who gets access to limited resources? Not me.

                                                    Progressive = EVIL.

                                                      Reply#15 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:55 PM EDT
                                                      Jeff-Minneapolis

                                                      Too long. Did not read. All I had to do was read the bottom line to see you partisan nonsense.

                                                      • 6 votes
                                                      #15.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:10 PM EDT
                                                      Gooser

                                                      Didn't read the bill either?

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #15.2 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:19 PM EDT
                                                      Bummer of Oregon

                                                      What a crock of fear-mongering @!$%#.

                                                      • 3 votes
                                                      #15.3 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:06 PM EDT
                                                      WalterPaul

                                                      Gooser..quote

                                                      ...." the problem is Obama wants to change it into Stalinist Russia or Maoist China" "Progressive = EVIL" ..

                                                      "You Obama supporters better hope you don't have any defects, because Susstein really supports the idea of putting sterilants in the drinking water. (No, really, look it up.) Are you down with that?'

                                                      Gooser....You are one derange person to put it lightly. Sounds like you been GOOSED to many times. Your one sick puppy. You don't belong in the USA.. Get a plane ticket to nowhere and don't come back.

                                                      • 4 votes
                                                      #15.4 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:21 PM EDT
                                                      jabbausaf

                                                      You Obama supporters better hope you don't have any defects, because Susstein really supports the idea of putting sterilants in the drinking water. (No, really, look it up.) Are you down with that?

                                                      Sorry, my subscription to Crazy Monthly expired

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #15.5 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:19 PM EDT
                                                      DonkeyButt

                                                      Drink the Cool aide Gooser. I don't see any reference to your statements. Looks like you drank the fear cool aide. We are still the United States. Maybe those other governments don't have good regulation either any more. I am sure the Corporates are trying to move our system all over the World. It equals even more greedy profit. I have relatives in Canada, and they have been with me to the Doctor here in the States. Their comment, is what a joke waiting so long to get into an office call here. Yes, my relatives also admit the Corporate America machine has and is trying to move into Canada. You got it all backwards, and have drank the coolaide. Don't be so gullable. You fear for nothing, except that you are afraid of change. So, best luck with the present sucky system.

                                                        #15.6 - Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:01 PM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        ZmanJeff

                                                        They blackmail the Nation by raising rates because of bogus reasons and now they are paying off the GOTP to make sure that they can keep ripping us off. Makes sense?

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        Reply#16 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:00 PM EDT
                                                        ADad-1477522

                                                        (singsong) Grandma got run over by the insurance companies, cuz she couldn't afford the premiums any more... This is the way their gonna treat everyone... cuz they don't give a damn any more. (Sung to the tune of "Grandma got run over by a reindeer").

                                                          Reply#17 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:01 PM EDT
                                                          DonkeyButt

                                                          LOL Adad. The part about not giving a damn any more is correct. Oh, they give a damn about their profits, and how it all tallies up on Wall Street. But, for humanity, us low life's that don't join in, (Middle Class who are sliding to lower class), we can put up, or shut up. That would make every one of them happy. I hope they remember while laying in a nursing home one day long from now, wondering where in the hell the ~social Services~ are. But, by then, they will have Mable Castles with cheap labor taking care of them. The rest of us? Well, it will be our problem, not theirs - the better half.

                                                            #17.1 - Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:09 PM EDT
                                                            Reply
                                                            Jeff-Minneapolis

                                                            You republicans are something else. You wanted the public option gone so dems caved in took it out.... NOW we all are beholden to insurance agencies. You @!$%#ers ruin everything you touch. Go away.

                                                            • 6 votes
                                                            Reply#18 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:06 PM EDT
                                                            ADad-1477522

                                                            Yeah, well, u tax everything u touch... so, fair is fair...lol

                                                              #18.1 - Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:55 PM EDT
                                                              DonkeyButt

                                                              LOL

                                                                #18.2 - Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:14 PM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                Gooser

                                                                Jeffy- Have you looked at the fraud rates of Medicare and Medicaid? You want a bigger hole to throw money into?

                                                                  Reply#19 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:13 PM EDT
                                                                  Jeff-Minneapolis

                                                                  Goosey look at rising cost and out right medical care denial to people under health insurance plans. You wanted it to continue? America is NOT number one anymore. We are not even in the top ten. Figure it out.

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #19.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:18 PM EDT
                                                                  Jeff-Minneapolis

                                                                  BTW even after dems caved into republican demands multiple times they all still voted against it. @!$%#ers.

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #19.2 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:20 PM EDT
                                                                  Gooser

                                                                  Tort Reform! I'd put it in all caps, but the newsvine censored me, and gee MSNBC is owned by who again? .... that's right GE. And they're in bed with who again? That's right the progressives.

                                                                    #19.3 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:21 PM EDT
                                                                    Jeff-Minneapolis

                                                                    http://technorati.com/politics/article/the-jig-is-up-on-tort/

                                                                    She estimates that in 2008, the cost of medical malpractice, including defensive medicine, was 2.4 percent of total healthcare spending, or $55.6 billion dollars. NOT 24% as neo cons like to quote.

                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                    #19.4 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:51 PM EDT
                                                                    mgbirish

                                                                    Jeffy- Have you looked at the fraud rates of Medicare and Medicaid? You want a bigger hole to throw money into?

                                                                    This POTUS is the first one I can remember addressing the very issue, if we stop the fraud we are helping to pay for HCR!

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #19.5 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:33 PM EDT
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    Gooser

                                                                    How many medical procedures are named after the doctors who first performed them in nations with socialized healthcare?

                                                                    <crickets>

                                                                    Financial gains inspire creativity and foster genius. Socialism inspires nobody and fosters mediocrity.

                                                                      Reply#20 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:25 PM EDT
                                                                      Jeff-Minneapolis

                                                                      The public OPTION is not socialism. You still have competition from private companies.

                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                      #20.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:36 PM EDT
                                                                      Gooser

                                                                      You don't really understand how government works, do you?

                                                                        #20.2 - Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:19 AM EDT
                                                                        Reply
                                                                        firebouy

                                                                        Yeh its all the insurance companies. Not the fraudulant claims,not the wonderfull trial lawyers

                                                                        not the great profit of about 7% the insurance companies make.Not George soros the foreigner

                                                                        who pays to disrupt unity. Not obama,the hussein of the US.If the democrats are looking out for you

                                                                        how do you think they got richer than the republicans. Kennedy's,Rockefellers,Soros,

                                                                        Strong,Gates,Huffington. You democrats have to blame someone for your failurs. That is the truth.

                                                                        Look around you and see who claims to be democrats. Either the super rich that keep the welfare checks coming or the recipients of them. Either the college proffessors and teachers,who can't do

                                                                        anything constructive so they teach and mold their little minions into themselves,unions who bankrupted the car companies,and last of all the TRIAL LAWYERS.

                                                                        They used to be called criminal attorneys,but had to change it. Millions of them walking around

                                                                        looking for someone or something to sue.We graduate more attorneys in this country thanengineers

                                                                        and doctors . If you want tofind out the culprit behind this countries slow demise,look to these.

                                                                        By the way,next time your in an automobile wreck,be sure and call your attorney before the other guy

                                                                        calls his. That way maybe his insurance will pay instead of yours.

                                                                          Reply#21 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:28 PM EDT
                                                                          Jeff-Minneapolis

                                                                          Considering insurance companies are FOR profit organizations... Yes it is the insurance companies. They keep people well enough to live but sick enough to need continuous care throughout their life.

                                                                          • 4 votes
                                                                          #21.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:33 PM EDT
                                                                          DonkeyButt

                                                                          Firebuoy, And if in an automobile accident, just hope you don't end up injured so bad that you can't work any longer. Maybe end up a paraplegic. It most certainly happens in this country - the good ole USA. Hide behind multiple religions and faiths that only count for Republicans, and God will spare you the wrath of any such possibility I guess. Then you too may be tagged as one of those low life welfare recipients by a Republican. Else, let the hospital bills take your home. Go bankrupt, and become even more of a recipient of ~social~ (dare I use that word) services. And then you get to grow old to choose between buying your medications that sustain life, or purchasing groceries. That is the reality of what the Republican/Tea Party stands for. ~Cooporate America~ where greed is much more important than any form of the the evil ~social~ word. Go ahead and suffer, while Republicans listening to Rush Limbaugh and Fox News bask in the sun and make note and fun of the less fortunate. Democrats - those people who just will not work and only want a handout in the Republican book. It is time to abandon health insurance period. We do not need it as proven by the #1 health system in the World, France. The USA is #37 with our current health care system. And I just "betcha" that every Republican in the USA who can, collects their ~social security~ just like anyone else.

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #21.2 - Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:48 PM EDT
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          firebouy

                                                                          When a trial lawyer sues somebody he gets 40 to 50 percent of your pain and suffering.

                                                                          Do the lawyers work non profit.

                                                                          No,and neither do the chinese who have lent obama enough money to send us into third world oblivion if

                                                                          the democrats and their allies stay in poer.

                                                                            Reply#22 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:43 PM EDT
                                                                            out of the box

                                                                            OK, soon we will have to buy health insurance....no matter what.

                                                                            Where do we draw the socialist line?

                                                                            we have to buy pet insurance lest Fido bite someone

                                                                            we have to dress according to government code lest we offend someone

                                                                            we have to share our earnings so everyone (except congress) makes the same

                                                                            we have to enroll our kids in "informant classes" to report subversive parents

                                                                            Personally, I believe it's already gone too far. Minimize government.

                                                                              Reply#23 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:22 PM EDT
                                                                              Dems-4-Fairness

                                                                              The government already forces us to be licensed to perform almost all forms of employment except day laborer and tax accountant.

                                                                              You can not even fish without a license.

                                                                              Now sit-down, shut-up and drink your kool-aid that the insurance companies paid for. /sarc

                                                                                #23.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:06 PM EDT
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                Dems-4-Fairness

                                                                                Jeff - in reply to your comment #18

                                                                                If the Republicans wanted no public option, why did the Democrats listen to them? Not even one Republican voted yes on the health care legislation that passed. Not one.

                                                                                The DEMOCRATS wanted ALL of this bill to pass and did it with 100% partisonship IN FAVOR of the RICH Insurance Companies.

                                                                                The insurance companies wanted a mandate where the poor and the middle class were ALL forced to purchase insurance from the RICH Insurance Companies. The Republicans opposed this and the Democrats were in favor of this and voted yes.

                                                                                YES, the DEMOCRATS caved to the RICH Insurance Companies. The truth only hurts a liar.

                                                                                  Reply#24 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:58 PM EDT
                                                                                  Dems-4-Fairness

                                                                                  When Social Security was first passed decades ago, the tax rate was 1%. Today the tax rate is 12.4% (including employer and employee match). That is a 12 times more expensive in just 80 years!!! And the whole thing is insolvent without more tax increases.

                                                                                  The new health care law raises taxes for 10 years to pay for 7 years of benefits according to the CBO and GAO under current estimates that we now are going to be wrong by 12 times too low. That amounts to a deficit of $2,520 TRILLION over the next 70 years.

                                                                                  Calculation = $1 Trillion per year cost x 3 years unfunded per decade of coverage x 7 decades or ten years periods for the laypersons x "12 times" more costly then estimates predict using the Social Security model as evidence of rising costs.

                                                                                  Talk about passing on a big tax bill to our kids and grand kids! The progressives make this health care bill sound good. Let's give the Democrats more control over Congress so we can get more of the same!

                                                                                    Reply#25 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:20 PM EDT
                                                                                    luckydog

                                                                                    More expensive sure but look at all the things SS does now that it did not do in the beginning. Just so you know SS checks are keeping an awfully lot of businesses in the black during this Republican recession.

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #25.1 - Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:17 PM EDT
                                                                                    Dems-4-Fairness

                                                                                    Actually it does less than it used to do. It used to provide Seniors with a great standard of living. Now Senior’s struggle to make ends meet and many are losing their homes because they had to take out mortgages just to pay their monthly bills.

                                                                                    Every time I turn on the computer (or the TV or the radio) I am bombarded with advertisements for attorneys wanting to help some poor person get the SS benefits they are entitled to but have been denied by the SS Administration. If the system is not broken and broke they why are so many people being denied coverage that deserve it. Lawyers do not advertise to help someone unless they know they will have a strong case from the get-go.

                                                                                    I did not even mention the fact that the original SS checks were large enough that Seniors could afford health care, but today we needed to add 3.9% of all employment wages just to afford minimal health care for our Seniors called Medicare. And now with the Presidents health care plan Senior’s are going to lose $500 billion in Medicare benefits! That will cut deep into those already small SS checks. But do the Progressives care about Seniors? Most of them vote against the Progressive - Socialist - Communist ideologies anyways, so I guess it would be ok if a bunch of them died from the lack of health care or money to buy heat, shelter and food. Or do you actually think that cutting Medicare dollars will be better for Seniors?

                                                                                    I know that if my employer cut my health benefits package, I would be ever so thankful. /sarc

                                                                                    What specifically does it do now that it did not do in the beginning and be sure to include the cost difference in your examples? Your argument, though un-supported with any facts, is an interesting one and I would love to debate you further on it if time permits.

                                                                                      #25.2 - Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:20 PM EDT
                                                                                      mgbirish

                                                                                      And now with the Presidents health care plan Senior’s are going to lose $500 billion in Medicare benefits! That will cut deep into those already small SS checks. But do the Progressives care about Seniors? Most of them vote against the Progressive - Socialist - Communist ideologies anyways, so I guess it would be ok if a bunch of them died from the lack of health care or money to buy heat, shelter and food. Or do you actually think that cutting Medicare dollars will be better for Seniors?

                                                                                      Hope this is better than some of the TV you have been watching!

                                                                                      http://factcheck.org/2009/08/more-senior-scare/

                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                      #25.3 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:55 PM EDT
                                                                                      mgbirish

                                                                                      another one

                                                                                      http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/12/healthcare-reform-will-it-ruin-medicare.html

                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                      #25.4 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:00 PM EDT
                                                                                      MytJoe2134

                                                                                      http://m.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/the_creeping_chill_of_obamacare_nwrteGSbuGsFbydKoItWTO?fbb=r5b933d2d&refid=0

                                                                                      You may want to check this newer info... the Congressional Budget Office keeps finding new bombs in the bill. These would have been brought out sooner if the bill wasn't so overinflated as to force the politicians just to vote on gut rather than actually read this incredibly invasive bill. None of what the politicians, especially Speaker Pelosi, Reid, and Obama, who promised transparency and we got back door deals and nothing on the internet to review as promised.

                                                                                      

                                                                                        #25.5 - Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:32 PM EDT
                                                                                        Reply
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