Fire reported at Ore. Islamic center; no injuries

You do realize that it was that muslim community, and from the news I saw last night, that very center, that notified the FBI in the first place , right ? The FBI received a notice in 2009 that said the young teen was becoming 'too radical' in his beliefs. From there the FBI investigated his emails, and saw that he had written two articles for jihadist newspapers, attempted to get a visa to go to Yeman, and had been contacting other extremist groups in Pakistan. They then spoofed the email address of a operative he'd been in contact with. The rest as they say is history.

The Muslim community is a large part of the reason why that bomb wasn't real.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

Thank you, Student of Life.

These Muslims are Americans and care deeply about their country. I am so proud of all of our Muslim neighbors.

The names of the informants will come out in trial.

... unless it's government misinformation.

If this was the Mafia, they would be in mortal danger... but it's a world religion, not organized crime, so there's no need for witness protection programs or the like.

Heck, I am shocked, shocked I say, that the Muslim informants names weren't in the story today.

Surely the authorities aren't so bigoted that they think the informants would be in danger...

...that would be prejudiced towards our Muslim neighbors... who shall certainly celebrate the deed.

Apparently he bragged to the FBI about writing an article for a jihadist magazine that talked about how to get in shape without the use of weights.

The more disturbing thing for me was that he mentioned in the article that Americans always bring their weight sets with them to theater.

Which we do, but the issue is that's not openly stored. Those are locked in storage containers, not on the inventory sheets on the outside, and they're not inspected in theater. They're inspected before they leave the US, and then banded to prevent tampering.

The other issue is that we don't unpack those at a work site, they're typically near our tents.

Meaning that the maintenance staff is supplying the insurgents with intel.

(Yeah, I know it seems obvious, but suspiscion does not equal proof.)

The Muslim community is a large part of the reason why that bomb wasn't real.

Wrong. They didn't tip off the FBI. The FBI intercepted emails to a person of interest over there... then when the guy stopped responding.. wrote him back (The FBI) and played it off like they were the guy he was trying to talk to. It then went from there.

This has been on the news on every time they are on here locally cause this is a big deal here in Portland area. Always more details coming out over it.

As far as someone lighting fire to the mosque... i figured something like that would of happened. Not justifying it, but... just had a feeling as soon as the news mentioned where he worshiped at, etc, etc. People are getting pissed off at this crazy Islamic stuff and terrorists and many just lash out in stupid ways.

Simplistic,

American Muslims are our first defense against terrorism, and they proved it by alerting the FBI to this hateful young man. This is one detail that you seem to have ignored. They saved Oregonians' lives with their quick thinking and turned this kid in who in no way represented how our Oregonian Muslims feel about our nation.

It is simplistic to blame an entire group over one stupid young man's hatred. This community I know well and know them to be loyal Americans who are accepted and loved in our town.

many just lash out in stupid ways

Lashing out at the folks who turned this hater in and saved lives is a prime example of "lashing out in stupid ways".

We owe our American Muslims our thanks.

Simplistic,

Umm...did you READ any of those newspapers ?

Every one of them says that the FBI started checking the kid AFTER they were tipped off.

The law enforcement official who spoke to the AP said agents began investigating Mohamud after receiving a tip from someone concerned about him. The official declined providing further more detail about the relationship between the two.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=12253987

Mohamud, who grew up in Beaverton, was a former student at Oregon State University. He had been enrolled in courses from late 2009 until Oct. 6 before withdrawing, said Oregon State University spokesman Todd Simmons.

The law-enforcement official who spoke to the AP on Saturday said agents began investigating Mohamud after receiving a tip from someone who was concerned about the teenager. The official declined to provide any more detail about the relationship between Mohamud and that source.

In an e-mail exchange with an undercover agent Mohamud complained, "I have been betrayed by my family," although he describes no specific action that family members took

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101127/ap_on_re_us/us_portland_car_bomb_plot

A law enforcement official, who was not authorized to discuss the investigation publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity, told The Associated Press on Saturday that federal agents began investigating the suspect after receiving a tip from someone who was concerned about the teenager.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/27/feds-somali-born-teen-plotted-car-bombing-ore/#ixzz16jh7lkmC

I think I've covered enough sources to convey that this wasn't just an isolated source...

Now granted, the only place I can find that the person who tipped off the FBI was a member of the center is on my local news broadcast (which I eluded to above) so perhaps that was premature on my part, but not surprising.

It is simplistic to blame an entire group over one stupid young man's hatred. This community I know well and know them to be loyal Americans who are accepted and loved in our town.

I don't blame the entire group not at all.

This community I know well and know them to be loyal Americans who are accepted and loved in our town.

So you live Corvallis? Does that make you a Ducks fan or a Beaver fan?

Simplistic,

Umm...did you READ any of those newspapers ?

It's been on the local news every day / every newscast since its happened. He just pleaded "not guilty" and it looks like his ahole lawyers are trying to make it an entrapment case which it isn't.

Now granted, the only place I can find that the person who tipped off the FBI was a member of the center is on my local news broadcast (which I eluded to above) so perhaps that was premature on my part, but not surprising.

That's not what I've read but if your correct then I stand corrected. From what I've heard is the FBI intercepted emails out of the country to terrorist people and then when he wasn't replied to... filled in the role as the "person he emailed" then went from there. His own Iman or whatever you call the pastor of the crazy religion didn't know any of this was going down except he noticed weird behavior.

Here is a fact. You have to be crazy to think Islam is legit. Period. To say otherwise is a question of your own sanity. Its barbaric, sick, and twisted. Unless you are really willing to justify doctrine and beliefs of over 2000 year ago.. and that sick @!$%# muhammad marrying and @!$%#ing a 9 year old girl with multiple wife's a religion of peace........ let alone the passages of killing non-believers. You'd have to be bat @!$%# crazy to believe in that.

Anybody else on the face of the earth you hate as much SR? Or is it exclusive to whatever it is you just ranted about?

Chill out baby.

Simplistic,

Accoring to an exhaustive search of how these things get foiled, the NYTs has said that 4 out fo 10 plots foiled are due to tips from Muslims.

Here is a quote from our Imam here in Corvalllis for those who do not see Muslims coming down on terrorism:

"The Imam denounced all forms of extremism and terrorism, telling us that they had already forgiven the one or ones who had done this--not out of weakness but because there was no place for prejudice here towards anyone.

"We are sending a clear message to the whole world, to learn from this small city and the big people here. The lesson they should know is that people of different races, genders and nationalities are tonight here side-by-side, supporting each other and caring for each other and loving each other.

If we can do this in a small city, then it can be done anywhere in the world. The Muslim community--never they will forget it! We are lucky to be in this city. Thank you very much. God bless you all."

Only if we get beyond the politics of division, do we begin to really work on solutions.

The average age of a militant is roughly 17. Most are right about seniors in high school, and have been indoctrinated from early childhood. (Some as young as 4 or 5).

Then again, the average age of the US military in theater is only 19.

It is a fact of neuroscience that brain development is not complete until the early twenties. The frontal lobes which contain long-range thinking and consequences are not developed.

If you have ever had a teenager, you have anecdotal evidence of this.

Student of Life: That still doesn't answer how, at a young age, he came to believe that it's justifiable and necessary to set off a bomb at a tree lighting ceremony that would kill innocent people. Who has Mohamud been hanging with and are they of the same mindset? I'm sure we will learn more as time progresses.

Arson is never okay and I'm glad no one was injured. For those Muslims in the area there who are peaceful and may be threatened by angry people, I hope that the community will rally around them to ensure no violence or harm befalls them.

Thank you, Kori,

I spoke with a couple of the young men down at the Islamic Center this morning who told me that he only visited about three times and was not a member of the community.

They were positive that someone from out of town must have done it because the center has been a welcomed and vital part of the community for decades and, in their words, a very American organization.

This bomber kid grew his own hatred. He never learned it at our Islmaic Center.

Kori,

You missed the second part. Many of them are taught this from a very early age, and if you remember today's warrior class (19-25) were alive to remember the US betrayal to Afghanistan in 1987. We used them to fight a proxy war, and then broke our promise to help them rebuild their hospitals and schools. (Within minutes of the last Russian tank pulling out of the region, all our assets, lines of credit, and envoys were pulled as well. This was done by a Democratic Congress, signed off on by President Reagan.) Bin Laden was already distrustful of the west, and this sealed it for him. A lot of the hatred/mistrust from the Islamic community stems from this event.

So what you have is a culmination of a generation of youths who grew up in the midsts of one of the largest betrayals in US history, preached to by radical imams, and on top of that, we (the US) then had to go and prove every islamic extremist shouting rhetoric from the mountaintops ( "they 're going to steal our heritage, the US will only bring devestation and destruction, they want to destroy our way of life") 100% right by our conduct in Iraq and our ridiculous fascination with installing a democracy in their country and running the Baath party out, which splintered the government and sprouted a tribal war.

That's a bad combination.

When you prove the crazies right, it only incites them to be more crazy. Moreso, it incites people to start listening to them more.

I spent 5 years in Iraq and Afghanistan, both as a combat troop and a support troop. One of the most interesting things I learned out there was that for every 10 people captured or killed out there in Iraq, only 1 of them was Iraqi. Most were from Europe, Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia - anywhere but Iraq. It's also important to note that recruitment of insurgents/terrorists (depends who they're shooting at, if it's civilians, it's terrorism - if it's military, they're insurgents)

The 1980s was a horrible decade for US / Middle East relations, and a lot of the decisions made then have to do with why we're in the situation we're in now.

Kori,

I also alerted my minister so he could announce the news about the fire and the barbeque this afternoon. I am thinking that we will have community show up as this is a good community.

This is very personal for me. These are my children whom I taught. These are my friends, my neighbors.

Stephanie: I am glad you and others are extending a hand of friendship and support for the community there. Hatred is blind and irrational and I'm sure there are some who would love to fan the flames and do further damage. Perhaps as you walk the path of peace and initiate actions that foster goodwill and comraderie, others too will see the positive outcome and want to be part of it.

Keep us posted on how things are developing.

I hope all of you supporting muslim Americans on this vine are right in that many are "good Americans". I hope those good Americans including those that fight for them so hard on here would do the right thing and report any suspicious activities and not dismiss it. Being wrong or politically incorrect is better than being dead. Muslims do blend in and then murder when called upon so I hope we all do the right thing in order to save innocent lives. Below are Muslim killings. It is Muslims killing Christians in the Middle East too Danny McGee, not Christians killing anyone. Their agenda is the present threat right now!

Date, Country, City/State, # Killed, #Injured and Description

4/14/1972
USA
New York, NY
1
3
Ten members of a local mosque phone in a false alarm and then ambush responding officers, killing one.

1/19/1973
USA
Brooklyn, NY
1
1
Muslim extremists rob a sporting goods store for weapons, gunning down a police officer who responds to the alarm.

7/18/1973
USA
Washington, DC
8
2
Nation of Islam members shoot seven members of a family to death in cold blood, including four children. A defendant in the case is later murdered in prison on orders from Elijah Muhammad.

10/19/1973
USA
Oakland, CA
1
1
Nation of Islam terrorists kidnap a couple and nearly decapitate the man, while raping and leaving the woman for dead.

10/29/1973
USA
Berkeley, CA
1
0
A woman is shot repeatedly in the face by Nation of Islam terrorists.

11/25/1973
USA
Oakland, CA
1
0
A grocer is killed in his store by Nation of Islam terrorists.

12/11/1973
USA
Oakland, CA
1
0
A man is killed by Nation of Islam terrorists while using a phone booth.

12/13/1973
USA
Oakland, CA
1
0
A woman is shot to deah on the sidewalk by Nation of Islam terrorists.

12/20/1973
USA
Oakland, CA
1
0
Nation of Islam terrorists gun down an 81-year-old janitor.

12/22/1973
USA
Oakland, CA
2
0
Nation of Islam terrorist kills two people in separate attacks on the same day.

12/24/1973
USA
Oakland, CA
1
0
A man is kidnapped, tortured and decapitated by Nation of Islam terrorists.

1/24/1974
USA
Oakland, CA
4
1
Five vicious shooting attacks by Nation of Islam terrorists leave three people dead and one paralyzed for life. Three of the victims were women.

4/1/1974
USA
Oakland, CA
1
1
A Nation of Islam terrorist shoots at two Salvation Army members, killing a man and injuring a woman.

4/16/1974
USA
Ingleside, CA
1
0
A man is killed while helping a friend move by Nation of Islam terrorists.

3/9/1977
USA
Washington, DC
1
1
Hanifi Muslims storm three buildings including a B'nai B'rith to hold 134 people hostage. At least two innocents were shot and one died.

7/22/1980
USA
Bethesda, MD
1
0
A political dissident is shot and killed in front of his home by an Iranian agent who was an American convert to Islam.

8/31/1980
USA
Savou, IL
2
0
An Iranian student guns down his next-door neighbors, a husband and wife.

11/6/1989
USA
St. Louis, MO
1
0
A 17-year-old girl is stabbed to death by her parents for bringing 'dishonor' to their family by dating an 'infidel' African-American.

1/31/1990
USA
Tuscon, AZ
1
0
A Sunni cleric is assassinated in front of a Tuscon mosque after declaring that two verses of the Qur'an were invalid.

11/5/1990
USA
New York City, NY
1
0
An Israeli rabbi is shot to death by a Muslim attacker at a hotel.

1/25/1993
USA
Langley, VA
2
3
A Pakistani with Mujahideen ties guns down two CIA agents outside of the headquarters.

2/26/1993
USA
New York, NY
6
1040
Islamic terrorists detonate a massive truck bomb under the World Trade Center, killing six people and injuring over 1,000 in an effort to collapse the towers.

3/1/1994
USA
Brooklyn, NY
1
0
A Muslim fires on a vanload of Jewish boys, killing one.

3/23/1997
USA
New York, NY
1
6
A Palestinian leaves an anti-Jewish suicide note behind and travels to the top of the Empire State building where he shoot seven people in a Fedayeen attack.

4/3/1997
USA
Lompoc, CA
1
0
A prison guard is stabbed to death by a radical Muslim.

3/17/2000
USA
Atlanta, GA
1
1
A local imam and Muslim spiritual leader guns down a deputy sheriff and injures his partner.

9/11/2001
USA
Washington, DC
184
53
Nearly 200 people are killed when Islamic hijackers steer a plane full of people into the Pentagon.

9/11/2001
USA
Shanksville, PA
40
0
Forty passengers are killed after Islamic radicals hijack the plane in an attempt to steer it into the U.S. Capitol building.

9/11/2001
USA
New York, NY
2752
251
Islamic hijackers steer two planes packed with fuel and passengers into the World Trade Center, killing hundreds on impact and eventually killing thousands when the towers collapsed. At least 200 are seriously injured.

3/19/2002
USA
Tuscon, AZ
1
0
A 60-year-old man is gunned down by Muslim snipers on a golf course.

5/27/2002
USA
Denton, TX
1
0
Muslim snipers kill a man as he works in his yard.

7/4/2002
USA
Los Angeles, CA
2
0
Muslim man pulls out a gun at the counter of an Israeli airline and kills two people.

9/5/2002
USA
Clinton, MD
1
0
A 55-year-old pizzaria owner is shot six times in the back by Muslims at close range.

9/21/2002
USA
Montgomery, AL
1
1
Muslim snipers shoot two women, killing one.

9/23/2002
USA
Baton Rouge, LA
1
0
A Korean mother is shot in the back by Muslim snipers.

10/2/2002
USA
Wheaton, MD
1
0
Muslim snipers gun down a program analyst in a store parking lot.

10/3/2002
USA
Montgomery County, MD
5
0
Muslim snipers kill three men and two women in separate attacks over a 15-hour period.

10/9/2002
USA
Manassas, VA
1
1
A man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas two days after a 13-year-old is wounded by the same team.

10/11/2002
USA
Fredericksburg, VA
1
0
Another man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas.

10/14/2002
USA
Arlington, VA
1
0
A woman is killed by Muslim snipers in a Home Depot parking lot.

10/22/2002
USA
Aspen Hill, MD
1
0
A bus driver is killed by Muslim snipers.

8/6/2003
USA
Houston, TX
1
0
After undergoing a religious revival, a Saudi college student slashes the throat of a Jewish student with a 4" butterfly knife, nearly decapitating the young man.

12/2/2003
USA
Chicago, IL
1
0
A Muslim doctor deliberately allows a Jewish patient to die from an easily treatable condition.

4/13/2004
USA
Raleigh, NC
1
4
A Muslim man runs down five strangers with a car.

4/15/2004
USA
Scottsville, NY
1
2
In an honor killing, a Muslim father kills his wife and attacks his two daughters with a knife and hammer because he feared that they had been sexually molested.

6/16/2006
USA
Baltimore, MD
1
0
A 62-year-old Jewish moviegoer is shot to death by a Muslim gunman in an unprovoked terror attack.

6/25/2006
USA
Denver, CO
1
5
Saying that it was 'Allah's choice', a Muslim shoots four of his co-workers and a police officer.

7/28/2006
USA
Seattle, WA
1
5
An 'angry' Muslim-American uses a young girl as hostage to enter a local Jewish center, where he shoots six women, one of whom dies.

10/6/2006
USA
Louisville, KY
4
1
In an 'honor' attack, a Muslim man rapes and beats his estranged wife, leaving her for dead, then savagely murders their four children.

2/13/2007
USA
Salt Lake City, UT
5
4
A Muslim immigrant goes on a shooting rampage at a mall, targeting people buying Valentine's Day cards at a gift shop and killing five.

1/1/2008
USA
Irving, TX
2
0
A Muslim immigrant shoots his two daughters to death on concerns about their 'Western' lifestyle.

7/6/2008
USA
Jonesboro, GA
1
0
A devout Muslim strangles his 25-year-old daughter in an honor killing.

2/12/2009
USA
Buffalo, NY
1
0
The founder of a Muslim TV station beheads his wife in the hallway for seeking a divorce.

6/1/2009
USA
Little Rock, AR
1
1
A Muslim with 'religious motives' shoots a local soldier to death inside a recruiting center.

11/2/2009
USA
Glendale, AZ
1
1
A woman dies from injuries suffered when her father runs her down with a car for being too 'Westernized.' (10-20-09)

11/5/2009
USA
Ft. Hood, TX
13
31
A Muslim psychiatrist guns down thirteen unarmed soldiers while yelling praises to Allah.

12/4/2009
USA
Binghamton, NY
1
0
A non-Muslim Islamic studies professor is stabbed to death by a Muslim grad student in revenge for 'persecuted' Muslims.

4/14/2010
USA
Marquette Park, IL
5
2
After quarrelling with his wife over Islamic dress, a Muslim convert shoots his family members to 'take them back to Allah' and out of the 'world of sinners'.

Your post has been reported as being unnecessarily long and annoying, NV's greatest crime.

Do you keep lists of all the Christians who have committed murder and crimes and terrorism during the same time? I doubt it, b/c it would literally consume your entire day, every day.

@bono...are Christians the threat right now? Trust me, they get targeted just as much!

Was this article about an American hating muslim or not that planned on murdering thousands in Pioneer Square and a Christmas tree lighting ceremony? I did not mean to offend but think as Americans (ALL AMERICANS including muslim Americans) should keep our eyes and ears open and report any suspicious behavior...unless you want to read about your kids school blown up or people you know taking a subway to work blown up....I don't want any more bombs going off or "planned bomb attacks".

...in order not to be found to have entrapped someone into committing a crime, law enforcement agents want to be able to prove that, in the 1992 words of the Supreme Court, the accused was "was independently predisposed to commit the crime for which he was arrested." To prove that, undercover agents are often careful to stress that the accused has multiple choices, and they then induce him into choosing with his own volition to commit the crime. In this case, that was achieved by the undercover FBI agent's allegedly advising Mohamud that there were at least five ways he could serve the cause of Islam (including by praying, studying engineering, raising funds to send overseas, or becoming "operational"), and Mohamud replied he wanted to "be operational" by using exploding a bomb (para. 35-37).

But strangely, while all other conversations with Mohamud which the FBI summarizes were (according to the affidavit) recorded by numerous recording devices, this conversation -- the crucial one for negating Mohamud's entrapment defense -- was not. That's because, according to the FBI, the undercover agent "was equipped with audio equipment to record the meeting. However, due to technical problems, the meeting was not recorded" (para. 37).

http://www.salon.com/news/terrorism/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2010/11/28/fbi

@ #2.8
Now just where does this arson of a mosque in Oregon fit on your list? At the bottom, or not at all?

magz...the arson was in an office area of the mosque, (empty) no deaths, no injuries. As I understand it, it was not in the prayer area...we don't know enough information about the arson yet....but I did state in another posts that the culprit should be arrested and brought up on charges for that.

I'm sorry, but despite your attempts at minimizing the injury this criminal has visited on an otherwise peaceful town, one would have to be intentionally dense to conclude that this arson was not, in fact, retaliation against a house of worship. I don't know about you, but if someone burns down the church I go to because some Catholic beat up an abortionist, I will be mightily pissed.

I don't care how long a post is, because I am capable of scrolling right past it. However, it would seem that a lot of the cases cited involve members of the Nation of Islam, not Muslim immigrants.

I don't care how long is, because I am capable of scrolling right past it.

Uhum ok.

However...

Oh shoot...

members of the Nation of Islam, not Muslim immigrants.

All threads of the same ugly tapestry.

soooyesterday your post was more immature then all the rest of them.

However, it would seem that a lot of the cases cited involve members of the Nation of Islam, not Muslim immigrants.

Members of the Nation of Islam were responsible for the murder of Malcom X after he had a falling out with the leader of the organization, Elijah Muhammed. Coincidentally, Louis X, another influential member of the Nation of Islam turned into Louis Farrakhan, the one who called Obama the "Messiah, who has come to save the world". Here, in Farrakhan's own words, is how the Nation Of Islam felt about Malcolm X when he broke away from their organization.

The Nation of Islam and its leaders began making threats against Malcolm X both in private and in public. On March 23, 1964, Elijah Muhammad told Boston minister Louis X (later known as Louis Farrakhan) that hypocrites like Malcolm should have "their heads cut off."^[145] The April 10 edition of Muhammad Speaks featured a cartoon in which his severed head was shown bouncing.^[146] On July 9, John Ali, a top aide to Muhammad, answered a question about Malcolm X by saying that "anyone who opposes the Honorable Elijah Muhammad puts their life in jeopardy."

Really top-notch organization. They are not heard from publically much any more (that I know of anyway) but don't under estimate their sphere of power and influence in urban and more currently outlying communities in the US.

soooyesterday

let me help you with your anger issues

*click*

airangel wrote:

"I hope all of you supporting muslim Americans on this vine are right in that many are "good Americans". I hope those good Americans including those that fight for them so hard on here would do the right thing and report any suspicious activities and not dismiss it."

The Oregon Muslim community DID do the right thing and reported this angry young man to the FBI which is why they caught him. American Muslims are our first line defense against terrorists.

o'steph

I appreciated the real time local info you were able to provide for this story. I hope the hard-hearted Islamaphobes at least took some notice of this.

I know plenty of good muslims from the Corvallis community. I am grateful they were willing to talk to the authorities about this boy and am sorry to hear that hate resulted in an arson attack. Pardon the pun, but the arson attack just adds fuel to the radical islam's fire.

Thank you, Joeiraqi,

Your word, as a recent veteran, carries a lot of weight with me.

Glad that you are close by and know folks from the community. Kowing individuals makes it so much harder to blindly hate.

Thanks,

I work in Corvallis and thus know many members of the community. It is so hard to understand why there is so much hate. I believe that the majority of people, muslims included, want to develop a better society and community. However, there seem to be a few radicals (both muslim and non-muslim) that feel that they should be the only ones that have any authority and rights. They are the ones that mess things up for all the rest of us.

demmywemmy,

You wrote:

<"o'steph

I appreciated the real time local info you were able to provide for this story. I hope the hard-hearted Islamaphobes at least took some notice of this."

I so much appreciate this. Thank you. Our town has a notinmytown chapter now which is coming up with continuing ways to foster understanding. This arson has actually been a blessing to us and given us the momentum to heal and unite the community.

/p>

These folks are gentle and candidly afraid, particularly this morning. I hope that the Christian churces condemn this. This Islamic Center had an open house after 9/11 and I was the only one who showed up from the community.

Why should Christian churches condemn it when not a SINGLE Muslim will condemn terrorism?

And their "open house" after 9/11 wasn't an honest portrayal of Islam - it was an example of TAQIYYA, a principle in Islam that says Muslims should LIE AND DECEIVE the infidels about their true intentions!

Whatever you saw at this "open house" was not a true representation of Islam's goals - it was nothing more than a charade in order to deceive you into thinking they are "peaceful" people.

I ask folks to visit their local Islamic center and express their support for these peaceful people.

Why would you visit and Islamic center when the Muslims are simply going to lie to your face and claim that they are "peaceful" when their religion preaches death to "infidels"?

They need to become Vocal and Public not US. They sit back and are quiet and say nothing its time for them to do something

Why should Christian churches condemn it when not a SINGLE Muslim will condemn terrorism?

Wrong: here is the truth

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

http://www.ciogc.org/Go.aspx?link=7655053

Thats BS. If I was head of any Muslim Community I would have a news camera in my face and id be so vocal about it. They are not. Period.

Why should Christian churches condemn it when not a SINGLE Muslim will condemn terrorism?

Wrong: here is the truth

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

http://www.ciogc.org/Go.aspx?link=7655053

Jack Orion - And how do we know these Muslims aren't engaging in TAQIYYA???

And how do we know these Muslims aren't engaging in TAQIYYA???

Prove it.

David, the claim was made they are not speaking out about it. I just proved they have.
Case closed.

And how do we know these Muslims aren't engaging in TAQIYYA???

Prove it.

Jack Orion - Read the Koran. It clearly outlines the principle of Taqiyya. It states that Muslims are to lie to non-Muslims in order to advance the Islamic faith. So, OF COURSE Muslims are going to CLAIM that they oppose terrorism. But do they really? How can we trust them when lying and deception are taught as part of their religion?

I hope that the Christian churces condemn this

What has this to do with Christian churches? What are you implying?

Why should Christian churches condemn it when not a SINGLE Muslim will condemn terrorism?

Wrong: here is the truth

Jack, as you can see, for the people who hate...Muslims, period, they can't condemn terrorism strongly enough to satisfy the haters.

And how do we know these Muslims aren't engaging in TAQIYYA???

You say they should condemn terrorism, but when presented with proof that some have indeed done just that, you dismiss it. Do you really want them to condemn terrorism, and...what do they have to do you convince you that they aren't "engaging in Taqiyya"?

My niece lives in Corvallis and teaches elementary school. She told me the rhetoric her kids are spouting is pure parental influenced hate-speech. This from a liberal university town.

AmericanMan-1101630 so in other words you can not prove they are lying: you are just going on your own opinion. I thought as much.

Jack O., You keep posting these links and people keep pointing out the flaws and outright lies in them. Are you blind to the truth or are you intentionally spreading lies to benefit Islam's goals?

This is from the first quote.

This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15)."

This is what this Imam chooses to present as proof of peaceful Islam from the Qur'an. Then why when I reply with 20 Surah that say clearly violence is demanded from Muslims against the infidels, I am called a Islamaphobe? Why is it that this quote is very vague and ALL of the demands for violence are clear as a bell? Just one example taken from the Qur'an, there are dozens like it:

Surah 9.5: And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

I won't even go in to detail about how this Surah 'abrogates' (replaces) earlier more accepting Surah that were revealed in Mecca.

What is your mission Jack. Truth, or the advancement of Islam's goal of one God, one Law, one religion?

demmywemmy,

I worked in the school system here in Corvallis at the elementary school which was the choice of the Islamic community here. I loved these kids. All of them were shining examples of beloved children who told me that their family time was the most important thing in their lives.

Also, I met plenty of teachers like your daughter who were outspoken in their bias against these children. Spreading around hateful personal opinions about children is beneath contempt. Faulting them for their religious values of not joining in activities of making figures out of vegetables because the Koran teaches that food is a gift from God and should not be played with or wasted.

My children's parents were loving and engaged with their children's learning unlike many of my white American parents who could care less.

The commenters who are making broad sweeping condemnations of ALL Muslims know none of them as individuals. It is difficult to hate a group if you know them as individuals. It is easy to demonize and dehumanize if you do not know them as individuals.

Hate comes easy when you insulate yourself with ignorance.

Yeah I should modify what I was told- it was in no way all or many of her charges. I think she was seriously shocked after having taught for two years in the Brooklyn NY school system, where other greater problems prevailed, but never any religious intolerance. Again these are young kids parroting what they've heard.

And their "open house" after 9/11 wasn't an honest portrayal of Islam - it was an example of TAQIYYA, a principle in Islam that says Muslims should LIE AND DECEIVE the infidels about their true intentions!

Taqiyya is a doctrine specific to Shi'ite Muslims, which condones their ability to conceal their faith to protect themselves. It's most often used in defense against Sunni persecution, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Wahhabi denomination's extremist interpretation of Jihad. You clearly have no @!$%#ing clue what you're talking about.

Thanks, Demmywemmy, for qualifying that.

She should report this to her principal who can contact their parents. It is my guess that these little pitchers may have overheard their parents reacting to news about Islamic intolerance. I know that the Corvallis Islamic community is educated and strives for good community relations.

Again, she should not be carrying tales out of school. The ony one she should mention this to is her principal. She could get fired for spreading this around.

Taqiyya is a doctrine specific to Shi'ite Muslims

Not true. I think you need to look farther than the first paragraph of Wikipedia before you make a claim like this. Or back it up with facts.

Not to mention that Somalia's primary religion is Sunni Muslim. So it would seem to reason that this young man was a Sunni Muslim as well.

o'stephanie...I would caution you don't spread reverse hate against Americans....this Somali obviously stated he hated Americans...did he learn it from teachers who favored the Muslim children and hated the "white bratty kids"?....as you stated "unlike many of my white American parents who could care less"...isn't that generalizing and stereotyping? As a teacher, children look up to you to teach and educate them, not form your own biases! Teach facts, not opinions!

O'stephabie, what a wonderful and enlightened world view you bring to the table. It's even more comforting that you are a teacher of innocents. It gives me hope, that the perpetrators of bigotry and hate have only a losing war ahead of them.

Friend request sent.

.what do they have to do you convince you that they aren't "engaging in Taqiyya"?

Plants - the only way they can convince me they're not engaging in taqqiyya is to renounce Islam. Because Islam promotes Taqqiyya, there's no way that anyone can trust Muslims at all. Therefore, renouncing Islam is the only way that a Muslim can prove they are sincere.

AmericanMan-1101630 so in other words you can not prove they are lying: you are just going on your own opinion. I thought as much.

Jack Orion - I don't HAVE to prove they're lying! The simple fact that Muslims follow a religion that promotes lying is enough for me to realize that I can't trust a single word they say.

I'm not sure why Christian Churches need to speak out about this. Do you know who started this fire? Was it a christian seminary student? a minister? someone who is a known Christian extremist? I think most people would condemn arson, just as most people would condemn murder or the attempt to murder with a car bomb. This story isn't about Christians it is about suspected arson, right?

Faulting them for their religious values of not joining in activities of making figures out of vegetables because the Koran teaches that food is a gift from God and should not be played with or wasted.

And what gives them the right to impose THEIR VALUES on Americans?? If they don't believe in making figures out of vegetables, why should they get to tell other Americans not to??

It used to be that when immigrants came to America they were expected to ASSIMILATE! But, the Muslims don't do this - they want to maintain their own communities and cultures and not become a part of American culture.

If they don't want to live like Americans, then why do they want to come here at all? This is why more Americans are realizing they are coming to CONQUER and not to assimilate!

Plants - the only way they can convince me they're not engaging in taqqiyya is to renounce Islam.

Yes, just as I said, LOL. As a black man, I recognize the attitude displayed in those comment. It's applied against us, as well.

Brief history lesson, for your edification:

There are two largely dominant denominations of Islam in the world today, Sunni and Shi'a. Think of them like Catholics and Protestants. In the Middle East, they don't get along terribly well (just like Catholics and Protestants in Ireland), and Shi'ites are often persecuted by Sunnis (hence the internal conflict in Iraq).

A small sect of Sunnis, a small minority by any count, are called Wahhabis. Osama bin Laden is a Wahhabi Muslim. Wahhabi is based on the teachings of an 18th-century Islamic scholar (for those following along, that's roughly 1,100 years after the death of Mohammed) who held and preached some slightly more fundamentalist views about Allah and the ideal state of Islam.

But hold on! Our story doesn't end here. Not all Wahhabis are militant Jihadists, and the connection between Wahhabi Islam and violent extremism is pretty tenuous according to most religious scholars. Rather, violent Jihadists consist of a small sect of Wahhabi Muslims. They're a very small, very vocal and quite violent branch of extremist Muslims that no one really likes very much, including most Muslims.

If we're comparing Islam to Christianity, we could say that Sunni and Shi'a are a bit like Protestantism and Catholicism; two large, distinct branches within the larger umbrella religion.

Then Wahhabi is a bit like Calvinism, the strict reformed theology within Protestantism which follows the teachings of John Calvin. Their beliefs are much more fundamentalist and orthodox than most Christians or even most protestants, but they're still not particularly violent.

And then you have the Jihadists, which are a bit like theonomists/Christian reconstructionists; a small sect of really, really extreme Calvinists who believe that government should ideally take the form of a Christian theocracy that still stones people for things like adultery or being sassy with one's parents.

So, the group of Muslims who practice (or even believe in) violent Jihad is a small sect, within a small sect, within a larger sect. Just like Christian reconstructionists. You don't go around being intolerant to everyone who goes to church on Sunday because there are a few whackjobs who bomb abortion clinics, so why the hypocrisy when it comes to Islam?

These are the facts of my own experience. There are plenty of hateful comments on here about Muslims in general. My comments are meant as an antidote to hating a group of people without knowing them. I never used the term "white bratty kids"--you manufactured that.

Presenting my children and their parents as good folks is not hate talk. I have heard plenty of hate talk in teacher's lounges about the Muslim children in their classes. Teachers are no saints. I loved them all--my Latino kids, my Asian kids, my Muslim kids, my Russian kids and all their White friends who would come visit me at recess and check out books from my own small library of multicultural books.

Loving the Muslim men, women and children that I have come to know is not reverse hate against Americans. These folks are Americans. These folks saved many lives at the Christmas Tree lighting by turning in a hater to the FBI.

Again, our American Muslims are our firstline defense against domestic terrorists. They have proven their worth.

Because Islam promotes Taqqiyya, there's no way that anyone can trust Muslims at all.

Wow, you just keep getting more and more wrong. Taqiyya doesn't condone hiding one's true intentions for the purpose of committing violence, it condones concealing one's beliefs in duress, when one's life is in danger due to religious persecution. It's an act of self-defense in desperation, to put it simply; not a covert warfare tactic.

It used to be that when immigrants came to America they were expected to ASSIMILATE! But, the Muslims don't do this - they want to maintain their own communities and cultures and not become a part of American culture.

If they don't want to live like Americans, then why do they want to come here at all? This is why more Americans are realizing they are coming to CONQUER and not to assimilate!

You know that freedom of religion is very nearly the most important bedrock of American values upon which this country was founded... right?

If they don't believe in making figures out of vegetables, why should they get to tell other Americans not to??

Mr. Potato Head must be beheaded!

Most of the folks at our Islamic Center were born here, hence they are Americans.

My friends at the Islamic Center here are having an old fashioned barbeque this afternoon for the community. What is more American than that?

Can't you read?

"If they don't believe in making figures out of vegetables, why should they get to tell other Americans not to??"

These Muslim children did not take part in the vegetable activity. You and your kids can play with your peas as much as you want. Mash them into your potatoes and fling them at the wall.

If these are good American muslims then they should assimilate in America as their newfound country. Americans should not have to assimilate to them...if I visit a country, I am a guest and I respect the beliefs of that country when I am in it. I do not expect them to cater to me. That is how it should be....if they become Americans and attend public schools, then they accept American teachings, American culture...unfortunately public schools are becoming way too indoctrinated and no longer teaches truth but new remolded history. You have to go back pre 1900 to find the truth....

You have to go back pre 1900 to find the truth....

Uh, damn 20th and 21st centuries!

Jack O., You keep posting these links and people keep pointing out the flaws and outright lies in them.

Wrong once again Bif. I post links which refute the anti Islamic intolerance of certain posters.

AirAngel,

My Muslim friends here in Corvallis are assimilated. In many cases, they are born Americans. These folks proved their love of America by turning in this kid to the FBI.

If you know no loyal American Muslims, it is not their fault. I do know them and they are good people.

They go to our schools, shop in our stores, drive on our streets, go to football games, vote, pay taxes and make the pledge of alliegence to the flag. As an angel, perhaps you should practice some gentle lovingkindness and get to know these folks before you condemn them.

If these are good American muslims then they should assimilate in America as their newfound country. Americans should not have to assimilate to them...if I visit a country, I am a guest and I respect the beliefs of that country when I am in it. I do not expect them to cater to me. That is how it should be....if they become Americans and attend public schools, then they accept American teachings...unfortunately public schools are becoming way too indoctinated and no longer teaches truth but new remolded history. You have to go back pre 1900 to find the truth.

The reason the U.S. is the greatest @!$%#ing country in the world is because our founders had the foresight to include in the very first amendment to the Constitution two clauses which prohibit the government from interfering with the religious beliefs of its citizens. That, more than anything, is what makes this country so attractive to people like Shi'ite Muslims, who were born into Sunni Muslim theocracies which persecute them for their religious beliefs. They come to this country because, just like the rest of us, they can be free to believe and practice their own unique religion without interference or persecution from the government.

Where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights or in any other founding document do you see a requirement that Americans must believe in the same ideals and cultural values as everyone else? The great thing about this country is that we don't have a single, compulsory set of values by which everyone must adhere. This country was built on freedom, and liberty, to believe anything you want, whether you're a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu, an atheist--whatever. We're all Americans because we're all free, and we're all free because we're Americans.

Taqiyya doesn't condone hiding one's true intentions for the purpose of committing violence, it condones concealing one's beliefs in duress, when one's life is in danger due to religious persecution. It's an act of self-defense in desperation, to put it simply; not a covert warfare tactic.

Danny - Not so - the Koran describes Mohammed sending Muslims into the camps of his enemies to pose as non-Muslims and deceive them. The Muslims would tell the "infidels" that they had left Islam and then gave the "infidels" phony intelligence that would lead them into a trap. Mohammed used this tactic numerous times and the Koran states he won numerous battles by using it.

Therefore, there is no reason to believe that today's Muslims are behaving differently since they idolize Mohammed as the "perfect man". The are infiltrating the nations of the "infidels" (i.e. the Western nations), acting as if they are peaceful and respectful of the majority, and waiting until their numbers become large enough to take over. This is EXACTLY what is described by the principle known as taqqiya.

Again, our American Muslims are our firstline defense against domestic terrorists. They have proven their worth.

Proven their worth? By trying to blow up christmas ceremonies? By trying to blow up planes with bombs in their underwear? By shooting soldiers at Ft. Hood?

By exposing the intolerance of people such as you.

You know that freedom of religion is very nearly the most important bedrock of American values upon which this country was founded... right?

Danny - Islam isn't just a religion. It's an entire socio-political ideology. It does have a religious component, but the ideology is more important. Therefore, Islam is not protected by freedom of religion in the way other religions are. Instead, we need to treat it like Fascism or Communism, which do not receive any kind of religious protection. During the Cold War, America banned the Communist Party. Since Islam is more ideology than religion, perhaps it is time to do the same.

By exposing the intolerance of people such as you.

You're right about that- exposing it to all of us.

My friends at the Islamic Center here are having an old fashioned barbeque this afternoon for the community. What is more American than that?

LOL!! How can they have a barbeque when they don't eat PORK?? You are aware that Muslims don't eat pork, aren't you??

These Muslim children did not take part in the vegetable activity.

Why not? They came to America, why shouldn't they be expected to behave as Americans? This would not have been tolerated when I was a child in school. The fact that Muslims won't let their kids behave like American kids shows that they don't really want to be Americans - they consider themselves Muslims FIRST and have no loyalty to this nation.

If these are good American muslims then they should assimilate in America as their newfound country. Americans should not have to assimilate to them...if I visit a country, I am a guest and I respect the beliefs of that country when I am in it. I do not expect them to cater to me. That is how it should be....if they become Americans and attend public schools, then they accept American teachings, American culture...

Airangel - Amen! There's no better way to say it than that. American are getting tired of Muslims (and some other immigrant groups, like Mexicans) not assimilating. If they come to America, they should be expected to act like Americans. If they don't want to, send them home.

Danny - Not so - the Koran describes Mohammed sending Muslims into the camps of his enemies to pose as non-Muslims and deceive them. The Muslims would tell the "infidels" that they had left Islam and then gave the "infidels" phony intelligence that would lead them into a trap. Mohammed used this tactic numerous times and the Koran states he won numerous battles by using it.

Not that I have any particular doubt that this is true, but do you have a reference?

Therefore, there is no reason to believe that today's Muslims are behaving differently since they idolize Mohammed as the "perfect man".

Really?

Leviticus 20:9

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.

Numbers 31:15-19

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 2:34

And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.

The list goes on, and on, and on, but I'll keep it short. Christians and Jews today are slightly more liberal and open-minded than the people who actually wrote the Bible, and no one today expects Christians or Jews to go about slaughtering nonbelievers in conquest. Society has progressed, and so have modern Christians' interpretation of the Bible. You still see crazy Christian fundamentalists doing crazy and violent @!$%# nowadays, but they're a very small minority--just like Muslims. I'm not defending Islam here--it's a potentially terrible, bat@!$%# religion which is a blatant assault on reason, rationality and moral values. So are Christianity and Judaism. But I don't hate and fear all Muslims anymore than I hate and fear all Christians or Jews, because most of them are relatively kind and peaceful people who just happen to disagree with me when it comes to religion.

Where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights or in any other founding document do you see a requirement that Americans must believe in the same ideals and cultural values as everyone else? The great thing about this country is that we don't have a single, compulsory set of values by which everyone must adhere.

Danny - You're missing the point here. Nobody's arguing about freedom of religion.

What you fail to understand is that Islam OPPOSES freedom of religion, and freedom in general. If the Muslims are allowed to become a majority in America, they will destroy the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and make ISLAM the official religion of the United States. All Americans will have to either convert to Islam or pay the Jizya tax (a tax on non-Muslims living in an Islamic state). This option won't apply to American Jews, however, they'll simply be executed.

Do you want that? Or do you want to maintain freedom of religion? Because if you want to maintain freedom of religion, and you want to maintain the Bill of Rights, then you MUST OPPOSE ISLAM!!

Instead, we need to treat it like Fascism or Communism, which do not receive any kind of religious protection. During the Cold War, America banned the Communist Party. Since Islam is more ideology than religion, perhaps it is time to do the same.

Holy @!$%#, you're pro-McCarthyism? I just realized the utter futility of continuing this discussion. Have a nice day. :)

Actually, one last addendum: I would recommend you read Nineteen Eighty Four, if you haven't done so. Totalitarianism is pretty terrifying, and that is exactly what you're espousing right now, although I'm not certain you're aware of it.

@Danny McGee...it's really tiring when people like you continue to live in the dark ages and make points about a lifestyle that doesn't exist today...you need to fast forward to today since it is the present and what we have to work on now. We need to protect innocents and take a hard stand against murderers and bombers and suicide. These murdering jihadist are destroying America and the peaceful communities we have known. Do we really want mayhem and chaos such as it is in the Middle East? Even in countries that are 100% muslim like Yemen, there is beheadings and violence. Islam is the ONLY RELIGION today that practices murder in the name of Allah. While it may not be everyone of that faith, still it is the ONLY one that brainwashes pregnant women, innocent kids, young men to strap bombs on themselves or create bombs to kill and murder (NOT DEFEND but MURDER) so your points are mute!

How about finding the arsonist and throwing his Muslim hating pyromaniac ass in jail?

Islam is the ONLY RELIGION today that practices murder in the name of Allah.

No, it's not.

so your points are mute!

No, they aren't...moot.

I have no problem with muslims practicing their beliefs and worshipping in their mosque. I do have a problem when a 19 year old Somali boy attends that mosque and then plans to take out Pioneer Square at a Traditional Christmas tree lighting festival. I tend to question the teachings of that Mosque.

@Plantsmantx...."mute" as in falling on deaf ears...I meant it the way I typed it. Like when you "mute" the sound.

Ah, guilt by association. How quaint.

@magz...I'm all for the arsenist being caught and going to jail...I don't believe in any plot to murder innocents - any innocents!

@Plantsmantx...."mute" as in falling on deaf ears...

Uh huh...lol.

How about finding the arsonist and throwing his Muslim hating pyromaniac ass in jail?

Aren't WE making some ASSumptions, now. I sincerely hope you are never on jury duty for anything more important than a parking ticket.

Luckily the authorities have to consider all possibilities, which include;

1) random arsonist, possibly even a kid

2) arson for the sake of insurance money, something I'm sure the insurance company will investigate

3) disgruntled mosque member or former member

4) a Muslim who wants to blame it on Jews

5) MAYBE, a Muslim-hater

I would recommend you read Nineteen Eighty Four, if you haven't done so.

Danny - I already have. It's a favorite of the left-wing liberals, only they see it as a guidebook rather than a warning.

Luckily the authorities have to consider all possibilities, which include;

1) random arsonist, possibly even a kid

2) arson for the sake of insurance money, something I'm sure the insurance company will investigate

3) disgruntled mosque member or former member

4) a Muslim who wants to blame it on Jews

5) MAYBE, a Muslim-hater

Oom - Considering the history of Islam and the penchant of Muslims to stage "attacks" against themselves in the Middle East and the Balkans, I think it's safe to assume #4.

A Muslim who wants to blame it on Jews

Wow. You really do hate Muslims, don't you?

Islam is the ONLY RELIGION today that practices murder in the name of Allah.

Actually, this deserves a little more thought and rebuttal than one coy sentence and a Wikipedia link.

Ever heard of Zionism? It's the Jewish belief that the land of Israel was promised to the Jewish people by God. It is the reason why the war between Israel and Palestine continues to this day. And today, in 2010, there are many fundamentalist Jews willing to kill and die in pursuit of keeping the Holy Land in possession of the Jewish people--not for political reasons, but because it's the land that God promised them.

Ever heard of Theonomy? It's the reformed Christian doctrine, still very much alive and well today, that the rightful form of government is one that enforces the Hebrew laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy (excerpted above). Christian theonomists aren't often willing to impose this theocracy by conquest, because they believe it will arise naturally through the course of society (see Postmillenialism), but the fact still remains that if a political candidate came out tomorrow in favor of stoning homosexuals and adulterers, the modern theonomist movement (small as it is), would overwhelmingly support him.

Ever heard of George Tiller? Barnett Slepian? Robert Sanderson? Shannon Lowney? Lee Ann Nichols? John Britton? James Barrett? George Patterson? David Gunn? They're all murder victims of the last twenty years alone who were killed by Christian evangelicals who believed they were doing the work of God.

Fundamentalist religious belief is potentially dangerous, no matter what the religion is. But when you step over the line and outlaw not just the violence, but the belief itself, you become no better than the radical religious extremists themselves. It's the liberty, freedom, and tolerance of this country that makes religion-inspired violence so rare in the U.S. compared to the Middle East, where theocracy is rampant. The integration of diverse religious values and cultures directly correlates to social progress and a decline of violent religious conflict. Our own history is immutable evidence of this fact.

Danny - I already have. It's a favorite of the left-wing liberals, only they see it as a guidebook rather than a warning.

Uh huh... and that's why you believe that certain political opinions should be made illegal. Wow. Fascinating.

By the way, just to throw your worldview for a loop: George Orwell was a vocal proponent of socialism--about as left-wing a liberal as you can get.

A Muslim who wants to blame it on Jews

Wow. You really do hate Muslims, don't you?

magz - That's reality. In the Middle East, the Palestinians often fake attacks on themselves and try to blame it on Israel. So, it's reasonable to suspect that this arson may have been staged by the Muslims themselves.

That's called projection.

"Well, I'd do it - so it's reasonable to assume that you'd do it as well."

it didn't work when you were 6, and it doesn't work now.

Pick a better argument.

Ever heard of Zionism? It's the Jewish belief that the land of Israel was promised to the Jewish people by God. It is the reason why the war between Israel and Palestine continues to this day.

Danny - No, that's because the Palestinians want to destroy Israel.

Ever heard of George Tiller? Barnett Slepian? Robert Sanderson? Shannon Lowney? Lee Ann Nichols? John Britton? James Barrett? George Patterson? David Gunn? They're all murder victims of the last twenty years alone who were killed by Christian evangelicals who believed they were doing the work of God.

Those incidents are abberations from Christianity. When a Christian kills, he's going AGAINST the Christian faith. Not so for Islam.

Danny - No, that's because the Palestinians want to destroy Israel.

Israel is a piece of land, just like every other country. No one wants to "destroy Israel." They want to occupy Israel, because unfortunately, it's just as "holy" to Islam as it is to Judaism. Since neither will tolerate the others' presence in the area due to starkly opposed religious belief, violence is the only option. Israel's winning the war right now, but if the tables were turned, the violence would be just as fierce and unending--thanks to religious belief. Forgive me for not picking sides in a battle versus imaginary friends.

Those incidents are abberations from Christianity. When a Christian kills, he's going AGAINST the Christian faith. Not so for Islam.

Is he? According to modern, watered-down liberal Christian theology, sure. But certainly not according to the Bible.

Uh huh... and that's why you believe that certain political opinions should be made illegal. Wow. Fascinating.

If someone believes in an ideology which is fundamentally opposed to our way of life, then we have the right to control that ideology. In America we have freedom - and that includes the freedom to oppose freedom. But, sometimes we have to limit the freedom of those who oppose freedom in order to protect our own freedom. Hence the banning of the Communist Party.

Think about it this way - Would you support the freedom of the Nazi party and Adolf Hitler to run for office? They did this in Germany in the 1920s when it was known as the Weimar Republic. But, as you should know, the Nazi ideology is fundamentally anti-freedom. So, do you grant freedom to those who are anti-freedom? What if granting them the freedom to run for office results in the denial of freedom for everyone else? That's what happened in Germany in 1933 - When the Nazi party was actually ELECTED as the majority party in the German parliament. Obviously, I shouldn't have to tell you what happened afterwards.

This is what we are facing with Islam. Right now, America respects the freedom of Muslims to practice and express their views. But, the ideology of Islam is fundamentally opposed to freedom. Therefore, I fear a day when our respect for the freedom of Muslims in America may result in a loss of freedom for everyone in America.

By the way, just to throw your worldview for a loop: George Orwell was a vocal proponent of socialism--about as left-wing a liberal as you can get.

But, today, it is the left-wing liberals who want to institute much of what Orwell describes in 1984. Liberals have a relativistic view of society, just as the Party did toward truth. Liberals support political correctness, a modern day version of the "double-plus-good" speech in 1984. And of course, Liberals want to control the media and all information, jsut as in 1984.

So who really sees 1984 as a guidebook and who sees it as a warning?

That's called projection.

"Well, I'd do it - so it's reasonable to assume that you'd do it as well."

it didn't work when you were 6, and it doesn't work now.

Student - I'm not talking about what I would do. I'm talking about what the Muslims have a long history of doing.

And what, exactly, are you doing to Muslims now?

No one wants to "destroy Israel." They want to occupy Israel, because unfortunately, it's just as "holy" to Islam as it is to Judaism.

LOL!!! If the Palestinians "occupy" Israel, then it won't be Israel! Israel will cease to exist, hence it will be destroyed.

Do you think the Muslims are just going to allow the Israelis to continue living there if they "occupied" Israel? Of course not. There won't be a single Israeli left, and therefore no Israel.

Since neither will tolerate the others' presence in the area due to starkly opposed religious belief, violence is the only option.

Israel has offered numerous times to tolerate the Palestinians - especially in 2000. But the Palestinians reject the offer because they will not tolerate the presence of the Jews.

Forgive me for not picking sides in a battle versus imaginary friends.

So I suppose you're an atheist since you talk of "imaginary friends". So, I can't help but wonder why you seem so tolerant of Islam. Do you realize that if you lived in an Islamic state you would get your head cut off for describing Allah as an "imaginary friend"?

You can talk of "imaginary friends" all you want - but remember that christians and Jews won't kill you for it.

In America we have freedom - and that includes the freedom to oppose freedom. But, sometimes we have to limit the freedom of those who oppose freedom in order to protect our own freedom.

If this isn't a prime example of Newspeak and Doublethink, I don't know what is.

Think about it this way - Would you support the freedom of the Nazi party and Adolf Hitler to run for office?

Yes, absolutely. We have a Constitution in place to limit the power of those in federal office for a reason. Sarah Palin is almost as terrifying to me as Hitler, but I would never oppose her ability to run for office or espouse her political opinions.

But, today, it is the left-wing liberals who want to institute much of what Orwell describes in 1984. Liberals have a relativistic view of society, just as the Party did toward truth. Liberals support political correctness, a modern day version of the "double-plus-good" speech in 1984. And of course, Liberals want to control the media and all information, jsut as in 1984.

I have no idea what your definition of "liberal" is, but I'm pretty damn liberal and I don't have a relativistic view of truth, nor do I want the government to have any influence at all over the freedom of the press. And I don't know if you've been paying attention, but a little bit ago I'm pretty sure I called Islam, Christianity and Judaism "blatant assaults on reason, rationality and moral values." Is that what you call "political correctness"?

Uh, why did this suddenly become an article about the Israeli/Palestine conflict? Isn't this about a crime, arson specifically, committed against a mosque in Oregon?

What's going on in this board?

LOL!!! If the Palestinians "occupy" Israel, then it won't be Israel! Israel will cease to exist, hence it will be destroyed.

I think you misunderstood me. When I said "Israel" I meant literally the piece of land that is now known as Israel, not the actual government or nation of people.

So I suppose you're an atheist since you talk of "imaginary friends".

'Fraid so.

So, I can't help but wonder why you seem so tolerant of Islam.

Because my political views necessitate tolerance toward opposing opinions. I'm tolerant of Islam to the same extent that I'm tolerant to Christianity and Judaism. I don't particularly like any of them, but I don't think they should be persecuted because of their beliefs.

Do you realize that if you lived in an Islamic state you would get your head cut off for describing Allah as an "imaginary friend"?

Yep. And the same would be true of a Christian theocracy, or an orthodox Jewish theocracy. The reason I'm not going to be beheaded here isn't because Christians are way better than Muslims, it's because our society is one that is tolerant of all religious opinions--even godless, eeeeevil heathens like myself. :)

You can talk of "imaginary friends" all you want - but remember that christians and Jews won't kill you for it.

Correction: Most Christians and most Jews won't kill me for it, just like most Muslims won't.

I guess, to summarize the argument I'm trying to make here, I'm not pro-Islam, I'm just anti-hypocrisy, and it makes no sense to me to see Christians talk about how evil and violent Muslims are when the Bible is just as violent as the Q'ran.

Uh, why did this suddenly become an article about the Israeli/Palestine conflict? Isn't this about a crime, arson specifically, committed against a mosque in Oregon?

What's going on in this board?

Discussion. Just roll with it. ;)

LOL!! How can they have a barbeque when they don't eat PORK?? You are aware that Muslims don't eat pork, aren't you??

This is the dumbest thing Ive ever read. Do you always have pork at your BBQ, because we dont! We usually have beef, chicken, shrimp, etc., but RARELY any pork because a lot of my family members dont like it.

When I read that ignorant comment about pork and bar-b-que I wanted to put my hand through my computer screen and slap him.

LOL! <---(can't stand that either)

Some people just love pig.

Me too.

On the other hand, I do my best to not let the savory pig speak for me.

Just in the month of October (one month), there were 181 Jihad attacks in 17 countries, 616 dead bodies, 923 critically injured....in one month....we have every reason to have concern with wide open borders and sleeper cells already in the USA.

I ask folks to visit their local Islamic center and express their support for these peaceful people.

lol - I DON"T think so. Not in my lifetime.

I DON"T think so. Not in my lifetime.

Yeah, I would be afraid of walking in when they are watching a powerpoint on how to fly a plane into a building :o !. S H I T ! They have suicide vests! Run!

They want to occupy Israel, because unfortunately, it's just as "holy" to Islam as it is to Judaism.

Um, no, it isn't, and never has been. The city of Jerusalem is indeed holy to Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, though. It's always been holy to Jews as it was the original center of worship; it became holy to Christians because it was holy to Jesus, and it became holy to Muslims because Muhammad claimed he visited there on a magic flying horse in the middle of the night (aka a "dream", but only outside the Muslim world.) There was never a country called "Palestine" and there wasn't even a concept of the so-called Palestinian people until the 20th century. The whole Middle East, like much of the rest of the world, was under colonial rule for centuries. The region was under Ottoman rule till after World War I, then British rule. It was never obvious or clear just who it "belonged to". The UN tried to establish a two state solution in 1948, and if the Palestinians had accepted it, they would probably be as wealthy as the Israelis today. They are a hard working, intelligent people in my experience, but they have been dreadfully mislead by some very corrupt leaders, particularly the late Yasir Arafat.

A Muslim who wants to blame it on Jews

Wow. You really do hate Muslims, don't you?

Magz, if I hate Muslims, would you care to explain why I have a screen name that means "Mother of Jacob" in Arabic? Would you explain how it is that I have shared my home with Arabs? Imagine two young, broke, pregnant couples moving in together, one Muslim Arab immigrant, one mixed Jewish/ex-Catholic agnostic. Imagine the babies being born a few weeks apart and the moms sharing babysitting, cooking, and household chores as they raise the boys almost like brothers. One of those people (the Jewish one) would be me. In addition, I've had many other good friends from the Arab community including the Palestinian family next door, I've danced at Palestinian weddings, dated Arabs when I was younger, and certainly understand their culture a bit better than I'll bet YOU do. I no longer live in the same city, mainly for economic reasons, and the ethnic makeup is very different here, but those were some idyllic times while they lasted.

Nevertheless, reality is reality, and yes, this sort of blame shifting has happened, often. There are many documented cases of people vandalizing their own property in order to cast blame on others--it's happened many times in the Middle East, but it is hardly unknown here. Arsons are never simple until they are solved. At least the insurance company will surely get involved and their investigations are usually pretty good. In the meantime, I suggest we all keep an open mind and stop jumping to conclusions.

magz

Some people just love pig.

Me too.

On the other hand, I do my best to not let the savory pig speak for me.

ok mags, how does palin figure into this?

Moooooooooooose!

This from a liberal university town.

My friends go there and I've been there many times before. Only like 45 min away. Got some kick ass frat parties I tell ya!

I work in Portland too right near where this happened. It feels different when its your own backyard when something goes down so to speak.

It feels different when a hate crime happens just blocks away from you too.

Thank all that is holy that Muslims did tip off the FBI. BTW, the Iman's son was at that tree lighting. If the bomb had been real, he would have died just like any Oregonian and American there.

Haters hate everyone. Only when we get past the politics of division do we begin to work on real solutions.

Does anyone remember when, during the 90s, President Clinton made an issue out of arson at black churches? Then it turned out that they were no more likely to be targets than predominately white churches. Experts pointed out that houses of worship in general are great targets for pyromaniacs because they are large and often empty and unguarded during the week, making them easy targets. I agree, we have no idea who set this or why. It could even be something as prosaic as needing insurance money because of financial mismanagement, something that happens in all faiths.

Most likely it is the Muslims trying to engineer an "attack" against themselves to make themselves appear as the victims! They do it all the time in the Middle East, where the Palestinians kill their own people and blame it on the Israelis. They also did it in the Balkans, where the Muslims were found to have bombed their own people on several occasions and make it appear as if the Christians did it.

So, creating a "fake attack" against themselves is simply a part of the Islamic play book.

Most likely it is the Muslims trying to engineer an "attack" against themselves to make themselves appear as the victims!

Once again: prove it.

Most likely it is the Muslims trying to engineer an "attack" against themselves to make themselves appear as the victims!

Once again: prove it.

Just read up on the history of Islamic conflicts around the world. There have been several cases where the Palestinians have "faked" atrocities and claimed they were committed by the Israelis. Also, in the Balkan, the Muslims faked several bombings in Bosnia and blamed it on the Serbs. They also faked a "massacre" in a village called Serbenica where they claimed the whole village was slaughtered by the Serbs. Yet to this day, no bodies of any "massacre" victims from that village have been found.

So, as we can see, creating fake attacks against themselves is simply part of the Islamic modus operandi.

AmericanMan-1101630 once again you have not proved your accusation, you are just going by your own opinion.

The police have determined that this fire is arson. Keep up on your news before you make accusations.

Jack, I think we both know what's going on with people like "AmericanMan". They don't want Muslims to denounce terror perpetrated by extremist, fundamentalist Islamists. People like AmericanMan want them to denounce Islam.

And he's been to all the websites to tell him what he wants to hear- to give him justification for his fear and hate.

And there's a myriad of them, spewing vitriol that's like honey to his blackened soul.

AmericanMan has every right to be worried as do we all! The extreme hate and extremism speak in and of itself....to plot and carry out bombs intended to kill Americans, women and children who have done nothing to them makes any mom or dad or grandparent worried for the safety of their kids in school, going to the mall, celebrating American Traditional holidays...none of us should have to fear being blown up by these Muslim terrorists and it will take them rallying in the streets WITH and ALONGSIDE AMERICANS to denounce these radical groups like Hamas, Al-Qaida and the Taliban. It's time to stop being politically correct and weed out those that hate and want to murder innocents! This PC crap with Illegals and Muslims is what's crippling us!

Right back at ya o'stephanie.

Jack, I think we both know what's going on with people like "AmericanMan". They don't want Muslims to denounce terror perpetrated by extremist, fundamentalist Islamists. People like AmericanMan want them to denounce Islam.

Damn right I do! If they denounce Islam then this war will be over. No more terror. Period.

Until that happens, we will always face attacks by Muslims because Islam advocates waging war against non-Muslims. There's no two ways about it. There's not going to be any kind of "peaceful Islam". The only Muslims who are peaceful are those who denounce their religion, or are basically non-observant.

Except that terrorism has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with politics, so people with your mind set are not really about religion, but politics.

Right?

Damn right I do! If they denounce Islam then this war will be over. No more terror. Period.

If you believe (or pretend to believe) that, then we don't have any more to discuss on this subject than we would if you demanded that I denounce being black. In other words, we have nothing to discuss on this subject. If you think all Muslims should denounce their religion, then you're beyond reason...an implacable enemy. You (and those like you) should be treated as such.

AmericanMan, I agree this happens with Palestinians in the Middle East, but this was here. The point is we have no idea what happened at this point. Rushing to conclusions is a big mistake.

If you believe (or pretend to believe) that, then we don't have any more to discuss on this subject than we would if you demanded that I denounce being black

That's ridiculous - how can anyone demand that you denounce being black? Black people are born black and can't change it. But, someone can CHOOSE to no longer practice Islam and convert to a different religion.

That's ridiculous - how can anyone demand that you denounce being black?

Anyone who thinks (or pretends to think) that these people demand that blacks literally become physically "not black" is being ridiculous. No...the demand is made on the same basis that people like you make it to Muslims. It's made on a cultural basis.

Anyone who thinks (or pretends to think) that these people demand that blacks literally become physically "not black" is being ridiculous.

Plants - You're talking about two completely different things here. Nobody can choose to be black. But, people CAN choose to change their religion. So, there is nothing wrong with me calling on Muslims to denounce Islam and convert to Christianity.

You have over a billion people to convert bro. I suggest you get to work pronto.

I'm not sure, but I do know their culture is big on privacy. Houses tend to have walls around them, too, especially if the owners are wealthy. I'm not sure "conquered territory" is the point since I think they also put up those walls in Muslim countries.

I'm not sure "conquered territory" is the point since I think they also put up those walls in Muslim countries.

Oom - They put up those walls to keep the infidels out! They think that any land with a mosque on it is Islamic land and that "infidels" are impure and not to be allowed on Islamic land. That's why they all have walls and fences around them - they are saying to the "infidels": Don't come here, non-Muslims are not welcome here.

Maybe it's to keep out arsonists and vandals.

Why does every mosque have a fence or a wall with an iron gate in front of it

?

They all don't, several mosques near my house that don't have gates. One has 5 feet of grass between it an a Baptist church. You can see them shaking hands and waving at each other all the time.

Now the only churches I see on tv anymore are ones with pedophiles in them should that make me think that all churches are full of pedophiles in search of young boys to molest?

Why is this? Do the muslims not want "infidels" coming on to their "sacred" territory, or as they see it, their "conquered" territory?

Maybe, they protecting their children from Christians looking to molest them, since all churches have pedophiles priests or pastors.

They all don't, several mosques near my house that don't have gates. One has 5 feet of grass between it an a Baptist church. You can see them shaking hands and waving at each other all the time.

Rhazes - Every mosque I've ever seen in America has a gigantic wall around it and a wrought iron gate, usually chained and padlocked. A mosque was built in my town a few years ago just like this. You can't actually see the mosque itself because of the wall. Non-Muslims have NEVER been invited into it, and the Muslims who attend NEVER communicate with anyone else in the community. If a non-Muslim simply says "Good Morning" to them, they just turn around and walk off without saying a word.

Their attitude shows you what they think of us "infidels".

Maybe, they protecting their children from Christians looking to molest them, since all churches have pedophiles priests or pastors.

When a priest or pastor is a pedophile, they are acting AGAINST the teachings of Christ and deserve to be thrown in jail.

In Islam, however, the Koran states that Mohammed married and RAPED a 9 year old girl! So, I'd be more concerned about my children being around Muslims, since their religion TEACHES that pedophilia is acceptable!

Maybe, they protecting their children from Christians looking to molest them, since all churches have pedophiles priests or pastors.

The Muslims don't need to protect their children from pedophile priests and pastors, because the Muslims are probably ALREADY raping their own children in accordance with the teachings of "prophet" Mohammed!

the Muslims are probably ALREADY raping their own children

Once again, prove it.

Maybe it's to keep out arsonists and vandals.

Are you contending that this is a problem in the US? If you are, Prove it as Jack likes to say.

The hate being spewed out is says everything about the spewer and nothing about the Amerrican Muslim community.

Muslims sometimes have walls around thier homes tp protect the privacy of their families. Family is everything to these folks. Their children are everything to them.

the Muslims are probably ALREADY raping their own children

Once again, prove it.

Jack Orion - Read the Koran. It states that Mohammed married a 9 year old and consummated his marriage with her (meaning he raped her).

Since Muslims believe Mohammed was a "perfect man" and they believe they should emulate his life, why would we think they have any opposition to pedophilia? I would be far more concerned about my children being around a Muslim than a Christian priest.

Muslims sometimes have walls around thier homes tp protect the privacy of their families. Family is everything to these folks. Their children are everything to them.

o'stephanie - If their children are everything to them, then why do they believe it is ok to marry and rape 9 year old girls? Why do they think it is ok to cut up the genitals of little girls?

If children are everything to them, why do they cheer and praise their children who blow themselves up?

Given their beliefs about Mohammed and his 9 year old wife, maybe we should force all Muslims in America to register as sex offenders, and make their wear GPS ankle bracelets and forbid them from going with 500 yards of schools and daycare centers....

Since they follow a "religion" that exalts pedophilia, maybe they should be treated as such...

And it's an issue of culture and topography. A white picket fence with a small yard in the front is a (modern) western construct.

Theirs is quite similar to the layouts of ancient Roman and Greek homes.

why do they believe it is ok to marry and rape 9 year old girls? Why do they think it is ok to cut up the genitals of little girls?

Exact source for this? (Don't just say the Koran)

I live 5 minutes from Dearborn Michigan, the largest concentration of Muslims in the United States. There is more mosques within 10 miles of me than most of you have in your states. So just because one Mosque near you has a wall does not mean all of them do.

Feel free to take the time to look at pictures of all Mosques in Michigan I've yet to find one with a 10 foot wall but one in East Lansing has a 3 feet marble wall.

Why do they think it is ok to cut up the genitals of little girls?

1.57 billion Muslims in the world. Its estimated that 100 million of them are living with FGM, according to WHO. So unless, out of the 1.57 billion there is only 100 million females than its not all.

Its a horrible practice but lets not pretend that all Muslims do it.

why do they believe it is ok to marry and rape 9 year old girls? Why do they think it is ok to cut up the genitals of little girls?

Exact source for this? (Don't just say the Koran)

demmy - For more info about female genital mutilation in Islam, read the books of Ayan Hirsi Ali. She's a former Muslim who was a victim of FGM and now speaks out against it. Of course, she lives a Salman Rushdie-like existence under constant security because her writing have brought fatwas against her.

FGM is a real and horrible cultural phenomenon throughout the muslim world- acknowledged.

asking about the source for raping 9 year olds?

I live 5 minutes from Dearborn Michigan, the largest concentration of Muslims in the United States.

Then you should be aware that Dearborn is ground zero for the spread of Sharia law into America. Why is it that a group of Christians were arrested in Dearborn over the summer simply for handing out Bibles? Because in Sharia Law, non-Muslims may not speak of their religion to Muslims, and so the simple act of handing out Bibles or speaking about Jesus Christ is now illegal in Dearborn.

1.57 billion Muslims in the world. Its estimated that 100 million of them are living with FGM, according to WHO. So unless, out of the 1.57 billion there is only 100 million females than its not all.

Its a horrible practice but lets not pretend that all Muslims do it.

Then why is Ayan Hirsi Ali facing fatwas for speaking against FGM? If Muslims around the world want to kill her for opposing FGM, that makes me think it is far more widespread than you claim.

. It states that Mohammed married a 9 year old and consummated his marriage with her.

This also happened in Europe at the same time. In the Middle Ages child brides were more common than not.

The difference between these responses to the prospect of child marriage is one of the clearest markers of the Otherness of the Middle Ages from the 20th century. The very idea of child marriage -- the use of a child as a bargaining chip, a counter in the game of family politics and inheritance -- is as abhorrent to us as it was apparently completely non-exceptionable in the 14th century. A social practice which entered the written record in the 12th century, but which seems to have had roots in the barbaric past, that extended from the royal abattoirs down to the lives of neighboring fishmongers and shop-keepers in medieval London, yet that seems to have received little more than passing notice in canon law beyond exhortation to limit it to age seven and ensure mutual consent of the parties, is now regarded with horror and disgust by decent- minded people from every point along the political and social spectrum.

http://www.thedigitalfolklife.org/childmarriage.htm

You live in a world of what ifs and maybes and you generalize. Its impossible to have a discussion with you because of that.

I feel sorry for you living in so much fear has to suck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

yes, I know it's wikipedia, but check out the article's sources.

Why is it that a group of Christians were arrested in Dearborn over the summer simply for handing out Bibles?

This the last time I am going to explain this!

Dearborn has a city policy that all literature must be handed out at one or all of five designated highly travelled public spots. This applies for all groups including the Girl Scouts. btw, they were not handing out bibles...they were handing out leaflets claiming that christianity was right and islam was wrong. And they were doing it at one of the entrances to an Islamic fair...how effective.

THEY HAD NO CASE AND THEY KNEW IT...yet they were able through careful propaganda to corrupt the minds of those like you!

This also happened in Europe at the same time. In the Middle Ages child brides were more common than not.

Jack - You're comparing apples and oranges here. Because something was common in Europe in the Middle Ages doesn't make it a part of the Christian faith. Jesus never married a nine year old. So, there is nothing in the teachings of Jesus that indicates that marrying 9 year olds is acceptable.

However, Mohammed clearly did marry a 9 year old and therefore, marrying children is a part of the Islamic faith.

Dearborn has a city policy that all literature must be handed out at one or all of five designated highly travelled public spots. This applies for all groups including the Girl Scouts. btw, they were not handing out bibles...they were handing out leaflets claiming that christianity was right and islam was wrong. And they were doing it at one of the entrances to an Islamic fair...how effective.

And how does this not violate freedom of speech or freedom of religion?? Why isn't the ACLU defending them?

And, the Christian group released the video of what happened when they were arrested. It clearly shows one guy being arrested simply for having a CONVERSATION about Christianity!! He wasn't even the one handing out the Bibles - he was simply TALKING to a group of Muslims about his faith.

But, this is what Sharia law calls for - it bans even TALKING to Muslims about non-Muslim religions. Dearborn, therefore, is already under the jurisdiction of Sharia. Frightening.

Man, for someone who isn't a Muslim, you sure spend a lot of time reading up on Muslims. Read up on being Christian bro, like, try reading the Good Samaritan or something...

I don't think what I wrote was processed by you in a logical manner.

Dearborn MI- want to hand out literature of any kind?- OK, here are the 5 locations- anywhere else is a violation.

I've watched that video and sorry, putting aside the literature and trying another tact is basically handing out literature.

And now you want the ACLU? how rich....

demmywemmy, 40 years ago the ACLU fought for the rights of neo-Nazis to march in predominately Jewish neighborhoods full of Holocaust survivors. Unfortunately, they are no longer the high-minded first amendment idealists they used to be. If anyone, such as the ACLJ for instance, were to take the case, it is highly unlikely that limiting the places where one may hand out literature would pass judicial scrutiny. Freedom of speech applies everywhere in the United States. Dearborn is not an exception. Why is it libs suddenly turn into law and order absolutists the moment one of their pet causes are disturbed? Demmy, some laws are NOT Constitutional! What part of that don't you understand?

Jack - You're comparing apples and oranges here.

Wrong again, you are ignoring the facts.
Child marriages were common in the Middle Ages all over the world.

I've watched that video and sorry, putting aside the literature and trying another tact is basically handing out literature.

It doesn't matter - the fact remains they were arrested for engaging in SPEECH. The Dearborn police clearly violated their first amendment rights (Of course the ACLU is as silent as they can be in this case).

Consider this - If we were having this same conversation on the streets of Dearborn instead of on Newsvine, I could be ARRESTED by the Dearborn police! Is that the type of country you want? Do you want any Christian to be ARRESTED simply for discussing their faith? What about a Jewish person? Should they be allowed to discuss Judaism?

Or, perhaps, you hold a political view that is unpopular in Dearborn... So how would you feel about the Dearbon PD arresting YOU??

Man, for someone who isn't a Muslim, you sure spend a lot of time reading up on Muslims.

You should read books by people like Robert Spencer or Ayan Hirsi Ali. They tell you plenty about Muslims. Their books should be required reading for all Americans because most Americans don't understand the threat that we face.

Child marriages were common in the Middle Ages all over the world.

Jack Orion - And how is this relevant to the discussion? The fact is that the teachings of Jesus do NOT call for child marriages and yet the teachings of Mohammed do. THAT is what matters. For Muslims, child marriages are a part of their religion and they will never abandon them, unlike Christians in Europe who have since outlawed child marriages.

You are a poser. You claim to know Islam, but you don't. If you did, then you would focus on the politics of terrorism instead of just painting the entire screen black. I have news for you, the overwhelming majority of human beings are not at all like you. Your personal crusade, and those who travel with you on it, are headed for epic failure.

And how is this relevant to the discussion?

Because Mohammad lived at the same time the Europeans who did the same thing.

For Muslims, child marriages are a part of their religion
Wrong again: its part of some Middle Eastern cultures just like it's part of some cultures in Africa and in India..
It's not legal in Indonesia which has the largest Muslim population.
In a recent case:

All those involved in the case, he said, could be charged under Articles 81, 82 and 83 of the 2002 Law on Child Protection. If found guilty, they would face a maximum sentence of 15 years in jail and a fine of 30,000 dollar, for forcing, swindling and/or trading a minor to sleep with another person.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india-news/indonesian-muslim-cleric-in-the-dock-for-having-illegal-sex-with-12-year-old-wife_100112345.html

And before you rant about the guy being a Muslim cleric, it happens in the US too:
http://www.helpthechildbrides.com/

Wrong again, you are ignoring the facts.
Child marriages were common in the Middle Ages all over the world.

Only in the intellectually dishonest sense that we define "child" as "anyone under 18". Only in modern times have we arbitrarily decided that 18 was the age of majority. For most of human history in most of the world, a person who had undergone puberty was seen as a young adult; this was true nearly everywhere until the last few centuries. But the marriage of Muhammad and Aisha was reportedly consummated when she was nine and he was fifty. She was brought in from her swing, no doubt terrified. A nine year old in the 7th century wouldn't have undergone puberty, and was therefore a bona fide CHILD in the sense that a 13 or 14 year old European girl would NOT have been. (Do keep in mind that what counts is the age when intercourse takes place, not the age of bethrothal or legal contract.)

Even today, technically a pedophile is defined as someone who is attracted to prepubescent children, NOT just anyone who happens to like underage teens. Should such a person act out his urges he is a felon, but he isn't a pedophile in the psychiatric sense. Elizabeth Smart's abductor isn't a pedophile. Muhammad was evidentally the real thing--an bona fide pedophile. Then again, he ALSO forced his adopted son to divorce his wife so Muhammad could have her, which is such unthinkable behavior for anyone anywhere that it doesn't have a name.

AmericanMan-1101630 why do you lie right out your teeth so oftenly ? just say again and again LOL

Where in the Koran it says

Jack Orion - Read the Koran. It states that Mohammed married a 9 year old and consummated his marriage

You just make up sentences to attribute negatiivity and negative meanings to Koran and muslims in general for no other reason but hatred against them in your mind. What a lying habit you have with your posts saying the same lies again and again.

OomYaaqub read up on European history to get your facts straight.

I have. Show me where grown men were having sex with prepubescent children in Europe. Official age of "marriage", on paper, isn't the same thing. In India, for example, it was an long standing tradition for two children to be bethrothed or in some cases married as babies, but they didn't even live together let alone have sex until they were teenagers.

Even in the biological sense it is actually VERY unadaptive for a man to be drawn to girls too young to impregnate; when he does so, he has basically reduced his Darwinian fitness to zero. Then there's the fact that it can be harmful or even fatal to the child. Therefore I seriously doubt it was ever all that common anywhere. In any case, this is hardly the only outrageous or disgusting thing Muhammad is ever alleged to have done with regard to women.

OomYaaqub I showed you the proof in 5.17

You should read books by people like Robert Spencer or Ayan Hirsi Ali

Scholarly Islamophobes are still muslim haters. I'm surprised you haven't run across Bat Y'eor, another frothing at the mouth "scholar".

Frothing at the mouth?!? She is a highly regarded scholar, a Jewish Egyptian whose family was forced to leave Egypt because of sheer hate. She has spoken at the UN and before the US Congress. Methinks your own rabid antisemitism is showing. Muslim moderates I've personally known agree with much of what she says.

And hate breeds hate- I'm surpised an educated scholar would continue the cycle. I read her Dhimmi to Dhimmitude and found it deceptive with a clear anti-Islam agenda.

Also to accuse me of anti-semitism is an egregious fallacy - specifically,

ad hominem: Latin for "to the man." An arguer who uses ad hominems attacks the person instead of the argument. Whenever an arguer cannot defend his position with evidence, facts or reason, he or she may resort to attacking an opponent either through: labeling, straw man arguments, name calling, offensive remarks and anger.

Anyway, I read quite a bit of theological texts, and prefer scholars who approach issues without prejudice, with accurate interpretations and (in this case) look for solutions, not create problems.

e.g. Dr. Eboo Patel and Karen Armstrong.

Religious tolerance not religious fanaticism.

But I think those Muslims, should they exist, understand the danger they would be in. It would be something like testifying against the mafia.

Yearning - they probably DON'T exist - that's probably just some politically correct BS put out by the liberal media.

Once again American, you have NO PROOF whatsover. You are just making baseless accusations.

Yearning,

So even though our Corvallis Muslims turned this stupid kid in, you find fault with them! There were 10,000 Oregonians in Pioneer Square for the tree lighting.

I am going to thank them this afternoon for saving the lives of their fellow Oregonians when I attend the barbeque.

Once again American, you have NO PROOF whatsover. You are just making baseless accusations.

Maybe not - but would anyone REALLY be surprised if that story was just made up by the media? The liberal media is ALWAYS apologizing for Muslims. They're always trying to make Muslims look like victims. So, why should we trust some liberal media story about some unnamed "good Muslims" (oxymoron) who supposedly turned the guy in?

And, why don't these supposedly "good Muslims" come out an actually show their faces on TV? If they remain anonymous, how do we know they exist? Yet, this is what the liberal media always claims - that there are some "good Muslims" in the world somewhere... But, of course, they are never named or shown.... I wonder why.

Well the names of the informants shall come out in trial.... should there actually be any.

...and surely our cops and judges will not be so bigoted that they would imagine the informants to be in danger.... After all, this is a world religion, not organized crime.

...and given that the informants exist, which I cannot prove, of course, but assuming they do for the sake of argument... They won't need witness protection programs or undue anonymity. They shall live in their communities and still show up at the same mosque.

You know... all smiling and open like.

and IF a better good Muslim did turn this evil muslim Somali in - way to go brave muslim!

We don't know if it's a muslim from that mosque...maybe it was a converted muslim who saw the error of his/her ways and did not believe in the bombing of innocent civilians...He/she heard of evil and reported it....so IF the story is true...(I find it hard to believe much the news resports these days...they have lost their credibility with me for the most part)...but if true...Good job to this person whoever you are!

When I visited the Islamic Center (and that is what they call them in America), the TV news was talking to the manager. So we shall see on the news tonight. They are not hiding. They are having a barbeque this afternoon.

"..maybe it was a converted muslim who saw the error of his/her ways and did not believe in the bombing of innocent civilians..."

What makes you think that a good Muslim cannot be a good American? That is bias on your part.

When I see more denouncing from muslim communities and Imam leaders against the "fudged up bombers" then maybe my bias will change. We've been pretty lucky so far but all it takes is one good hit. Our economy is already in the tank. I don't want to feel this way but I do based on the actions and attempts at innocent lives. We should not have to live in fear of these maniacs!

Maybe they should "denounce" this Somali terrorist at this BBQ and say they won't tolerate that kind of behavior and encourage everyone from that community to "turn-in" anyone they hear or see plotting against the murdering of Americans...then that would make the "good muslims, good Americans"

They did, when they notified the FBI about him almost a year and a half ago.

@Student of Life...an anonymous attempt is great but it's still not the community encouraging that behavior in a more vigilant effort to oust the would be killers! More of it needs to happen....a lot more!

Airangel.

Again Mulims turned this angry young man in to the FGI. It is tortured logic to turn that into anything else than what it is: a Good American who wants to protect his community.
It was not anonymous. Apparently, it was the Portland Islamic Center where he may have felt more free to practice his hate talk in a large urban area.

Christian churches need to come out about this because it was arson against a house of worship. I am wondering if the Christian churches of Birmingham came out against the bombing and killing of those little innocent Black girls. Or did they say that it did not concern them because it was the Black church? Or the Morman Temple? Or any other folks they considered "not like them"?

but would anyone REALLY be surprised if that story was just made up by the media?

I don't think the media normally just "makes up" stories. I do know they are capable of getting things wrong in their eagerness to scoop a story. Anyone who has ever had a notorious tragedy happen in their family knows this--the story will contain inaccuracies. But I certainly HOPE it's true that at least one Muslim did turn the kid him.

As for Christian churches or anyone else condemning this, it would be totally inappropriate until more facts are known. It would be seen as an admission of guilt and would merely "flame the fires" so to speak. The firebombing in Birmingham was obvious--and three little girls were killed. This was far more likely to have been an inside job, and nobody was hurt. When something similar happened to a synagogue in Pittsburgh a few years ago, leaders of the Jewish community IMMEDIATELY said let's not jump to conclusions here since we don't know what happened. I would expect no less from leaders of that mosque.

In the interest of providing a statement from an American Muslim denoucing terrorism:

"The Imam denounced all forms of extremism and terrorism, telling us that they had already forgiven the one or ones who had done this--not out of weakness but because there was no place for prejudice here towards anyone."

There were NO news stories which reported this statement by the Corvallis Imam. I am not surprised that folks do not see these condemnations when no one reports on it.

Bias can be overcome. When we moved past the politics of division, only then can we see clearly how to work together for solutions.

Wanted to make it clear that the "it" that the Imam refers to was the arson against the Islamic Center.

It does seem that way, doesn't it?

It doesn't seem that way at all. The FBI is creating an atmosphere of doubt amongst the extremists though. I imagine they are constantly wondering if the people they are working with on their plots to kill innocent people are friend or foe. That is good!

also take note of the Xmas angle
last year we had the fake attempt at Xmas from the fake plane bomber a Black Muslim man headed to Detroit with a bomb design not to go off

and now this year we have another Xmas bomber a Black Muslim man with a bomb design not to go off

It does make for nice media drum beating,, for the natives

you have to watch out for those dupes with dud bombs

also take note of the Xmas angle

Yep. They could have arrested this kid at any time. Why did they string him along for an extended period of time? There was no practical reason to do that.

Oh yes there is a damned good reason. It's the extent of charges. If they had picked him up before he tried to detonate the bomb, then there's more wiggle room for him to get out of the charges.

Conspiracy to commit mass murder is a crime of intent. Intent is tough to prove in a court of law, as you have to deal in the subjective (opinions) to make your case.

Attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction is a crime of action. The actions speak for themselves. Much easier to prove.

There is no way any reasonable doubt can be installed that he had any other intent than to use that bomb to kill civilians.

I'm also suspecting that they were seeing if he'd lead them to anyone else.

As someone else mentioned, this incident is unsettling to the terrorist organizations, as it makes them wonder if the 'operative' they've been talking to is really one of theirs, or is it one of ours ?

Oh yes there is a damned good reason. It's the extent of charges. If they had picked him up before he tried to detonate the bomb, then there's more wiggle room for him to get out of the charges.

No, I don't think there would have been more "wiggle room". They had him on conspiracy long before the point at which they arrested him. HN is right- they did it in order to over-dramatize the situation, and to scare people. In a way, they engaged in terrorism.

I tell you what Plant

If they FBI isn't setting up a Black Muslim for Xmas,,then they are setting up a Black politician
I call it the Birth of a Nation media show

the FBI stays real busy with Black folks

Ohh poor head negro.... feeling a little underappreciated?

You should apologize for that, like, soooyesterday.

More racist unfounded conspiracy theories from Head-Negro I see. *sigh* At least he's consistent at something....

More racist unfounded conspiracy theories from Head-Negro I see. *sigh* At least he's consistent at something

yes SR you are right
sort of like racial profiling we have none of that here in America, since racism and discrimination was eliminated in 1964 ?!

and speaking of covert Racists and their covert ways,, here is a link for you SR right in Oregon seems its common place there..
This is sort of like an FBI sting,, but to catch covert Racist and Bigots

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100414/NEWS07/4140331/-1/NEWSMAP

Onward Christian Soldiers

...marching as to war... Let's try to keep things in context. You are either ignorant or flaming.

You are either ignorant or flaming.

Both.

How sad a whole group of people was targeted.

What is sad is that you are referring to the people at the Mosque and NOT the hundreds of people who would have been killed at a festive Christmas tree lighting event.

JDs-Chihuahuas,

Thank you for your striking the bell of sanity here.

Bif,

Pay attention! It was our Corvallis Muslims who turned this nutcase in to the FBI. American Muslims are our first line defense against these haters.

These good Corvallis Muslims saved the lives of countless Oregonians with their ethical actions.

Pay attention! It was our Corvallis Muslims who turned this nutcase in to the FBI. American Muslims are our first line defense against these haters.

So who was arguing that? Not me. I guess you weren't paying attention, so busy crowing your PC rhetoric you failed to notice I wasn't acting and saying what you want me to say.

Your twisted logic takes any call for accountability of Islam for the violence in it's name as some slight of the entire Muslim community. Muslims can do no wrong in your book. Every day that position becomes harder and harder for you to justify. But I'm sure you will keep your head buried in the sand until all hell breaks loose, and then you will find someone else to blame. Not the people who enabled Islam and helped to deny there was a problem and avoided any hope of solving it. No, that wouldn't do at all.

Uh, Bif, the woman is at a barbecue at the mosque. She made salad. Guess she might not get to respond to your post any time soon.

How was your Thanksgiving?

Oh, she made salad! Well, that makes a big difference. That CLEARLY gives her an insight in to the minds of radical Muslims who are hijacking young minds around the globe to follow the call of violence and intolerance found in the Qur'an. Just because her friends are practicing Islam Light like most Muslims in the US doesn't mean there isn't a growing problem. The longer we all deny it, Muslims included, the more damage will be done when the stuff hits the fan.

Bif, when was the last time you sat down to eat with Muslims?

How was your Thanksgiving?

THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS!!!!!!!! Or dinner.

This is about a religion that has a HUGE problem, just like MANY RELIGIONS have had over the years. The first step in FIXING a problem is recognizing it. Right now many Muslims are in denial. More so in the United States. Muslims and non-Muslims alike don't want to face this problem. Organizations like CAIR which are part of the problem are doing everything they can to keep us from dealing honestly with the problem. Misguided political correctness is keeping us from dealing with the problem. Nice ladies who make salad for the Mosque picnic are keeping us from dealing with the problem.

Using words like Islamaphobe and bigot to shield you from the truth is only postponing the inevitable. The longer we wait to deal with this, the more violent the conclusion will be.

Believe me, when several of these misguided young men finally succeeds in killing thousands of people in the name of Islam, a peaceful, rational attempt to deal with the problem will not be as easy to accomplish. Wouldn't it be better to face the painful truth NOW!?

o'stephanie
"My children's parents were loving and engaged with their children's learning unlike many of my white American parents who could care less."

I am an Oregonian and some of your rhetoric is racist b.s.

And this ignorant statement:

"Pay attention! American Muslims are our first line defense against these haters."

If you are really a teacher, its no wonder Oregon children are so far behind!

Man. You both have some serious anger management issues.

Man. You both have some serious anger management issues.

Whatever rational you need to prop up your self delusion. "I can't be wrong, so they must be crazy!"

Good luck with that. Peace.

Hey. Peace.

he wanted to be a terrorist because he is evil and full of hate and wanted to experience what it would be like hurting defenseless people.

Really? He just wanted to hurt the innocent, with no religious context to it? Then why did he single out a gathering of people celebrting Christmas?

You say that the person who did this merely wanted to experience hurting people by doing something destructive. Somehow, when a Muslim terrorist commits an act or tried to, he is just a misunderstood little juvenile delinquent, but when an unknown non-Muslim MAY have set a fire, (which could also have been an inside job), you can read this unknown person's mind and determine it was a "hate crime". Amazing extrasensory perception you have. Why are you wasting time on this seed when you could be figuring out the winning lotto number instead?

o really now

#10.3

"Pay attention! It was our Corvallis Muslims who turned this nutcase in to the FBI. American Muslims are our first line defense against these haters.

These good Corvallis Muslims saved the lives of countless Oregonians with their ethical actions."

It's your choice. Not mine. I've made a decision long ago. Right after 9/11 happened.

Read the Koran.

So you are telling me, by your logic, Christians are no better than Muslims?

o reallynow

The doors of your mind slammed shut. I feel sorry for you.

@o'stephanie....I thought the article said it was an anonymous muslim that turned the Somali in....do you have first hand knowledge that it was a Corvallis Muslim or who it was?

WTF is that comment about? Are you a cop or something? You want someone on the Vine to stoolpigeon for you? Show me a badge wiseguy. And it had better be legit because you are interrogating someone on a public site.

@magz...I was not interrogating whatsoever...you ASSume a heck of a lot there. o'stephanie stated in an earlier post

"These good Corvallis Muslims saved the lives of countless Oregonians with their ethical actions"

So I was simply asking if she knew it was Corvallis Muslims since to me anonymous is just that! I was curious if she had more info than MSNBC reported so quit getting all riled up! sheesh!

You were asking her about people she has personal relations with, not knowing with any shred of evidence if any of them had anything to do with a crime that is not the subject of this article! What sort of a person are you? How can you even come back at me and deny that you were trying to get her to rat on people you don't even know?

whatever, believe what you want, I don't really care. I know what I meant and I didn't say ANY of them had anything to do with anything but the subject of this article did state the FBI was notified by anonymous muslims...she said they were Corvallis muslims...my point was it could have been anyone that tipped the FBI...I'm just not convinced there aren't some of "her Corvallis good muslims" that didn't impress upon a young boy their "anti-American" views. He did attend there...not saying they did but this impressionable young Somalian boy, now 19 years old got his hate for Americans somewhere!

Holy denial! The fact that you don't care (your words) about trying to get someone to rat on her friends on something you have no evidence about does not excuse you, on the contrary, it speaks volumes about your character.

Go ahead. Keep fishing. So everyone here on the Vine knows what you're really about.

you're crazy and make assumptions...we don't know who who the anoymous tip came from and we don't know who the arsonist is or the reason behind it. Until then, keep your friends close and your enemies closer!

o'stephanie..........The doors of your mind slammed shut ? I'm a very open minded person and think before I comment. I feel sorry for the familie's of 9/11 and our Troop's who are engaged in Battle with the Middle East over their belief's........It's Civil Holy War that has been going on for century's. I'm a Nam Vet and we lost in 1975. And these Troop's mean more to me than a terrorist. That's why I support our Troop's 100%.

mikebank.......That's your choice and no. Just because I'm a Christian no better, holier that anyone else. Assume all you want.

magz.........A news article from the Associated Press. I didn't see anyone post this seed did you ?

WTF is that comment about? Are you a cop or something? You want someone on the Vine to stoolpigeon for you? Show me a badge magz. And it had better be legit? because you are interrogating someone on a public site ? Interrogate who ? A false accusation indeed. A terrorist is a terrorist and their trained at very young age to follow generation's. There's big division in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA ?

Oh. Really now...

No where has the news or law enforcement / FBI said anything about Corvallis Muslims turning him in. That is bogus. The FBI picked up on an email he was trying to get a hold of someone out of country that was on a watch list. The FBI then wrote him back as the "guy" he was trying to contact jihad about and let things play out.

Again, America Muslims turned in this angry young man.

American Muslims are our first defense against terrorists.

Apparently, it was a Muslim in Portland but how does that take away from the fact that a Muslim did that?

airangel, I find you very unangel-like. Just cannot hear that harp strumming...

You know, I've called the police and never was I asked what my religion was. That alone makes the notion "Muslims turned him in" suspect.

Spiders are sacred to Native Americans also. They call them grandmothers. That is gentleness; that is holding life sacred.

It is an historical fact that Muslims have exercised more religious tolerence than Christians. The Prophet allowed all religions who had a sacred book to worship in freedom.

Historically, Islam was more liberal than Medieval Catholicism... and Muslim countries enjoyed the advantages of liberalism, clearly ascending over the West.

Then the Catholic Church was forcibly disarmed, and a secular awakening happened in the West... and now Islamic countries are the most brutal places on earth.

Whichever culture is the most liberal and accepting in 500 years will be on top...and the other one will be complaining about it.

... I wonder... will Saudi Arabia be more open and tolerant than the US in 500 years?

Could that century's equivalent of Albert Einstein seek shelter in Pakistan because Pakistan will be the place of enlightenment?

-Or will Jews still be "Apes and Pigs" in the Koran.

Spiders are sacred because of a legend that one once protected Muhammad when he was hiding from his enemies in a cave. Because the spider a web across the entrance to the cave, enemies assumed nobody could possibly be there and went away. (Interestingly, a nearly identical but much older story is told about King David when he was hiding from Saul. Coincidence?)

Muhamad loved spiders, which is nice, but OTOH he hated dogs. If you're looking for an animal-loving faith, try Jainism or Buddhism. And, o'stephnie, the dear, sweet, tolerant Profit (pun intentional) killed 800 Jews, then forced one of their widows to marry him. This was his famous "Jewish wife".

There are many lovely Muslim individuals, and there have been some wonderful Muslim mystics like Rumi, but Muhammad himself was a thoroughly despicable excuse for a human being. That's according to the stories Muslims themselves tell, of course, which is all we have. (Historically, there is really no actual proof that he even existed. The same is true of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc.)

Thank you, magz,

I must say that the headline on this article is wrong. It says "no injury".

I am injured. My community is injured. This is a hurtful and hateful thing. We are all burned by this.

Also hurtful is the green stars on the most hateful and incendiary (like fire) comments. I would like to know how that can be.

Fear not nor be disheartened! Heh. Sorry, could not resist the sentiment. The star system is entirely driven by software, i.e., people voting up people. Its easy to do on an article like this where there is no author or seeder. Many, many cases before when that system has been abused by nefarious cliques and dumb drive-by's. In the meantime, take note of the more virulent authors of insensitive posts, because they surely are now aware of you.

So glad you're here. Don't let the nut cases bring you down.

folk are falling over each other to condemn the religion and the people who go to that place of worship to pray in peace.

For some look at the names and their registration dates- always an indicator. Others only comment on specific issues that fry their fannie.

And some come here at the urging of the wacko site du jour to troll until exhausted.

and if it was a synagogue, magz, you and o'stephanie would be falling over yourselves going on about how it is all the fault of Israeli oppression and/or George Bush.

People do burn down houses of worship all the time, often with no hatred involved. They are large, frequently unattended buildings which are a natural magnet for arsonists. Can't we at least reserve judgment until someone is actually caught?

Excuse me, I don't know who you are, but you look at my posting history the past 2 and a half years and then get back to me if you find anything that marks me an enemy of the Jewish people. I live in NYC, Einstein. I eat bagels and cream cheese with smoked salmon and know about kosher. I have Jewish folk for clients and treat them as I would my own mother. If you ever talk that way to me again, I will report you to Admin.

People do burn down houses of worship all the time, often with no hatred involved...

I don't know where you live, but in my reality, people who burn down a place of worship for revenge are cowardly criminals, or do you really think otherwise?

You intentionally misunderstood me. Let me say it once again, slowly. Many people commit arson for kicks. They often chose houses of worship just because they are both large and easy targets. Hence a mosque, church, or synagogue might be targeted, but it would be a random crime, not a hate crime. Statistically, the MAJORITY of cases involving houses of worship are of this type. The fire also could have been set by a recently fired employee, a member or former member, or someone wanting insurance money. It also COULD have been someone wanting to pin the blame on others outside the community. There are so may possibilities it's absurd to just automatically assume it's based on ethnic or religous hate.

BTW, it's a bit pathetic to try to "prove" you aren't anti-Semitic by pointing out that you live in NYC and eat lox and bagels. It's like a Klan member defending himself by saying he lives in Mississippi (where many blacks also live) and he loves fried chicken and watermelon.

Good golly. You might want to find the time to read that post of yours buddy.

arson for kicks

Are you @!$%#ing kidding me? Some 19 year old Muslim kid gets arrested for conspiracy to commit mass murder and then it just so happens that some arsonist decides to set fire to the only mosque in the kid's nighborhood and he did it for kicks? Tell me you're not an arson investigator.

Its a bit pathetic to "prove" that you aren't anti-Semitic by pointing out that you live in NYC and eat lox and bagels...

Is that as pathetic as concluding that I am anti-Semitic because I stand up against religious bigotry, which coincidentally, in the context of this article, and your posts, involves Islam and Muslims?

It's like a Klan member defender defending himself by saying he lives in Mississippi

Lemme get this straight, its ok to be a Klan member in Mississippi?

where many blacks live

Gee, pesky blacks. Don't they know they shouldn't live in Mississippi?

and he (Klan member) loves fried chicken and watermelon

He (Klan member) also thinks its okay to have slavery and apartheid.

Are you saying that of me? Are you calling me akin to a Klan member? Now is when you have to back up your words. Here on this public site.

Magz,

Thanks for the information. I did not want to think it was a person doing the green stars.

And, yes, I am aware of these ones but also aware of folks that are my friends.

Took a break and made my salad to take to the barbeque. Had a piece of pie.

Thanks again.

You give that congregation my very best and you are welcome.

Are you @!$%#ing kidding me? Some 19 year old Muslim kid gets arrested for conspiracy to commit mass murder and then it just so happens that some arsonist decides to set fire to the only mosque in the kid's nighborhood and he did it for kicks? Tell me you're not an arson investigator.

I'm saying it's wrong to rush to premature judgment. Period. Please stop your knees from jerking and use some common sense here. Things aren't always what they seem.

Stop my knees from jerking? Like suddenly blame Muslims for everything? I'll try.

Oooops. Brainlock. Damn. Does that ever happen to you?

o'stephanie

"Thank you, magz,

I am injured. My community is injured."

--------------------

Speak for YOURSELF! 99% of the men in Oregon would love to get their hands on this little punk.....especially the ones who were at Pioneer Square with their children that night.

Well yeah, she did speak for herself. Are you speaking for 99% of the men in Oregon?

blogger,

read more carefully, please.

I am NOT defending this stupid hating kid that tried to bomb Oregonians. What I am saying is, that without Muslim Oregonians who turned him into the FBI so they could monitor his emails, he could have connected with real terrroists.

Like suddenly blame Muslims for everything

Huh? I blamed this one punk kid for what he tried to do. He is currently under arrest, so obviously I'm not the only person who blames him.

When there's ANY case of suspected arson, they always have to suspect it could be an inside job and proceed from there. That's because so many of them are. This isn't in the least like the Birmingham firebombing, say. There were no injuries and it happened in a part of the mosque where there weren't likely to be any. That is strongly indicative of either 1) inside job or 2) arson for kicks. Unless excelerants were positively detected, it could have even been an accident.

We shall see. The police will find out.

The police have the uncanny ability to find the wrong culprit. I really have no idea if they will be able to solve this crime effectively.

Ok. You're smarter than the police. Got that.

The police only have more expensive equipment. That's all. The only knowledge they have that is superior to mine is the knowledge of loopholes in laws and pointless cases. If we could remove some of the technicalities I guarantee the crime rate would drop.

There are unsolved cases in the world. There are also people who are wrongfully convicted. Check out www.innocenceproject.org

Gotta love how all of a sudden the good liberals are prepared to say the police are NEVER mistaken, incompetent, corrupt, or politically motivated, something they would never ordinarily say unless to do so conveniently supported one of their pet causes. Law and order for me but not for thee. Of course I very much hope the cops do their jobs and DO find out what really happened in this case. Arson can be a tricky crime to solve.

Like I said, in your opinion, you are smarter than the police, even without the superior equipment.

Brilliant.

The vehicles the police use for the most part are inferior to the cars I drive that were built 18+ years ago in terms of both speed and maneuverability as well as reliability.

@ #15.5

Ah. Those black people again. How dare they be actually innocent? But then again, my comment was about a certain user who thinks he's smarter than the police, and not about innocent black folk sent to their deaths by, shall we say, an overzealous criminal justice system??

I like you. I want to argue with you forever.

Black people??? How did they get infused into this conversation??? Who ever said the police are the absolute most knowledgeable people ever?!? Hell, they made up a lie to try and get me put away after somebody hit my car. They tried to put it on me!!! The bastards are not as smart as they look. The local police in my area hired a coke head patrol officer and corrupt payed off sheriff. Give them all the credit you like but in the end it is hard to trust them.

Uh, read up on Oom's comment about the Klan and me at #13.6. About the rest of your post. well, I am truly sorry for all the trouble you've been through.

magz- ARE you a Klan member? For future reference I need to know before I rip out the fried chicken and koolaid and have supper with my black friends. I don't want the Klan busting my door in and starting a fire in my backyard.

Black people??? How did they get infused into this conversation??? Who ever said the police are the absolute most knowledgeable people ever?!? Hell, they made up a lie to try and get me put away after somebody hit my car. They tried to put it on me!!! The bastards are not as smart as they look.

Thank you, Alpha. I've had my problems with police, too, although I live a life of very quiet desperation. And I have no idea what magz is talking about, except that I mildly mocked her for stating she can't possibly be anti-Semitic just because she lives in NYC, eats bagels, and "knows about kosher". (Gee, if I know about sweat lodges, does that make me Native American?) Oh well. Some of my best friends are politically correct, pompous, knee jerk lefties.

Ooooo. Snark!

Some of my best friends are politically correct, pompous, knee jerk lefties.

Mind if I look over your friends list, I mean just so, if I can pick out the lefties, I can assume that even though you think they're pompous, knee jerking lefties, you still consider them friends?

Um. Does that mean you think we could be friends? Not that I'm pompous. Or lefty. Or have an uncontrollable knee jerk tic. Or politically correct (are you? please say yes...), but, I would love to argue with you.

Forever.

I mildly mocked her for stating she can't possibly be anti-Semitic just because she lives in NYC, eats bagels, and "knows about kosher".

I guess if that makes her not anti Semitic then I can't possibly be anti Muslim if I fly on a plane that has a Muslim pilot?

"some of my best friends" is an expression from my youth. It was supposedly what a prejudiced person would say to deflect criticism -- "some of my best friends are" Jews, blacks, etc. Look, I know you probably didn't mean any harm, but how it would it sound if someone tried to prove their lack of bias toward Arabs by saying, "Hey, I live in Toledo and I love falafel!" or "How can you accuse me of not liking Italians when you KNOW I love pizza!"

Of course not alpha. You'd just curse all Muslims while you are safely flown to your destination by a Muslim pilot.

Ain't life a bitch?

Ain't life a bitch?

For you, Yes. For me, it's just another day in paradise!

@ #15.15

Hey, I could live in Toledo, and I love falafel!

Hey, I like pizza, and I know it came from Italy!

@ #15.17

For me, it's just another day in paradise!

Wow! So what the @!$%# are you doing posting on Newsvine?

Don't they have a wet bar there in paradise?

Any virgins?

I would like a Corvette. With a blonde ding bat in the passenger seat.

Could you make that happen?

I would like a Corvette. With a blonde ding bat in the passenger seat. Could you make that happen?

There is only so much s h i t I can pull out of my ass in one day so your request has been denied (for now). Have a nice day :)

You too alpha.

The US Attorney for Oregon addressed everyone at the barbeque last night and he does not think that it was set by Muslims or fun-loving arsonists. He knows it was a hate crime and told the community that him, Attorney General Holder and President Obama are with them and will support their freedom to worship without fear.

We have two FBI men on the case with the full wieght of the federal government. I have faith that they will catch the arsonist.

A career politician, in other words. Oh well, I take HIM seriously. I do hope they find out what really happened, but I very much hope they don't try to pin it on some innocent bystander for political gain, which also happens, often. (Read up on the Innocent Project.)

I cannot help but contrast this with a fairly recent case in Pittsburgh in which a synagogue burned, and Jewish leaders went out of their way to say please don't jump to conclusions.

There is a photograph by our local news photographer, Jesse Skoubo, which has been used nationally for good reason. It represents how our local Muslims feel about this desecration of the place where they worship. To imply they set it themselves is way off base. These folks would never have wanted to be thrust into the international news cycle as they have been.

You may find it here.

o'stephanie

You have to be open to all the possibilities. One picture is only worth a thousand votes and that could still be a front to cover up an evil plot until it is too late.

These are my neighbors. I have visited them many times and never heard anything but love from them.

These folks have been wronged by someone who tried to set fire to their house of worship. The fire destroyed religious records of births, marriages and deaths.

I am open to the possiblity of setting aside the politics of division which leads us down dead ends. If we can get beyond that, we can come together to help each other. The FBI has a Muslim outreach program that Oregon now belongs to in order to further communication.

You know, the FBI are pretty sharp. There has been nothing about suspecting our Muslim nieghbors of hurting themselves. What kind of "evil plot" do you think might be forwarded by them setting their own fire?<

And did you look at the picture? /p>

A war can be started by someone destroying their own property and putting it off on some one else.One person defends the liar and one comes and defends the accused. The next thing you know a hundred people are on each side of the argument and it snowballs from there. As tensions rise radicals lash out on one side and upset the other side and that side retaliates; then both sides are soon retailiating at each other's actions in a never ending chain of actions. That is how a war happens.

How a war happens is simply an extension of political debate from the barrels of guns.

P>

alpha,

Think about what might happen if there was no suspicion in the beginning. Think about what might happen if each side acknowledged their mutual humanity. Think about what might happen if ugly words were not thrown out with no thought as to consequences.

This kind of contentiousness is not present in my community. It is a very peaceful place. And, when that peacefulness was broken, we rebuilt it so all of our neighbors could feel safe and respected.

If there was no suspicion in the beginning then the arsonist would have the go ahead green light to keep lighting fires. Ugly words are necessary to describe a distasteful situation. Peace can not be achieved with out war first. Keep in mind you have to eliminate the opposition or your plan for peace will eventually fail.

Well, eliminating the opposition sounds pretty ominous alpha. Should society *eliminate* the arsonist instead of arresting his sorry pyromaniac butt, putting him on trial, then sticking his intolerant, stupid head into jail?

Should society *eliminate* the arsonist instead of arresting his sorry pyromaniac butt, putting him on trial, then sticking his intolerant, stupid head into jail?

You have to destroy the seed from which evil grows before it germinates. All of the people in prison today promote the "gang life" and how cool it is so why not kill them and their followers before they spread their evil. Same with terrorists and so on. Taking a few lives is necessary from time to time to keep the situation under control.

You have to destroy the seed from which evil grows before it germinates.

I assume you're talking about Satan. Well go ahead alpha, go find the mother@!$%#er and destroy him before he spawns more seed.

I assume you're talking about Satan. Well go ahead Alpha, go find the mother@!$%#er before he spawns more seed.

For all I know Satan could be this really cool guy that God just wrote a book about to make look bad because he acts like a prick and wants to cover it up. That could only be possible if religion wasn't designed to give guidance on how you should treat your neighbors and family. Kill the prisoners and messed up terrorists and so on and we can be sure the future will be a better place.

If the state began killing "undesireables", then the state would become the evil.

The undesirables are what corrupt the state so killing them is a favor. Key word: Propaganda, a good campaign will put the enemy at such a low level that they are viewed as a pest that needs to be destroyed. How can the state be evil if it is doing the people good by harming them. Nobody realizes this but in order to do proper good the people must be done harm first, you can't get something good with out the bad. A Utopian expects only the most good things to happen but in truth you get both the good and the bad.

They don't motivate people like they used to. Eisenhower's D-Day speech and many others of the past gave so much meaning to fighting for your cause. Now people just bend over a say legalize this or that or just give up because they are too weak to do what is right. We need to embark upon a great crusade in modern times to free the world of terrorism and drug cartels and rapists, etc.

Crikey! This has to be my last comment tonight, way too much to worry about tomorrow. Enjoy the argumentation with out me:)

Beaverton must be a really evil place. Tell you what. Go there. And tell them all about your post.

Beaverton is a very nice place, but those to whom it may concern can read my opinion in the Oregonian.

In the meantime what, exactly, seems to be your problem?

Well there you go. Your opinions can be found in the Oregonian. I don't subscribe, so I let my opinion of your opinion show up here, since you also show up here, aside from the Oregonian.

Is that a problem?

blogger,

Not everyone at the Christmas Tree lighting was Christian. The Imam's son was there too, enjoying the season. The world is not neatly divided between religions, skin color, gender, or sexual orientation.

Good read.

That's called crazy hysteria. It's ironic that Jewish houses of worship are vandalized or set on fire on the time and no one screams Krystallnacht.

OomY,

But they do. Our synagogue in Eugene was vandalized some time back and there was a huge outcry. I cried because I had attended a close friend's bat mitzvah there. It is always tragic when a house of worship of anyone is defaced.

I find my Muslim and Jewish friends to be so much alike--intelligent, funny, quick, kind and passionate who love their children and each other. I just wished that they could recognize their own bortherhood more.
/p>

libwatcher,

Huh? Define "who' and, if you don't mind, define "stupid".

#17.4 and #17.6 reported as no value.