Gays celebrate repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'

There will be growing pains, but we'll get over them. Some of the puritanical rules and customs will have to change while Force personnel with stubborn ways of thinking turnover over time. If addition to policy changes, there's this intrusive faux family atmosphere that exists under the guise of accountability, tradition, etc that will prove to be problematic. I won't miss seeing that go away; you wouldn't believe the amount of babysitting that leaders have to handle...i'm talking about very personal matters from finance to domestic relationship health matters. We have to seriously learn to treat people as employees in that regard and not charge or expect leaders to be so intimately familiar with their people on and off-duty.

Long past time this nonsense was booted into the dust bin of history. All I can say is we have wasted far too much talent in the use of this outdated policy, goood riddance to bad rubbish. Anyone who want's to serve in the defense of their country should be able to regardless of what gender they prefer for their partners.

Woohooooo! :D

one of the key markers for first-class citizenship in any nation is the right to serve in the military, and Saturday's vote "is a historic step toward that."

Senator McCain opposed first-class citizenship for our nations hero's, hypocrite.... Semper Paratus

It's about frikkin time... YAY!!

YEAH!!! I watched the vote on cable. I am really happy that this has gotten this far. I do have concerns about the delays built into the bill but for now we can at least say we remember when one of the most important pieces of civil rights legislation was voted on. It still has to come up for the actual vote but this was such an important step today.

Gays HAVE been serving in the military since the beginning of this country. Frederick Von Steuben saved the Revolutionary Army at Valley Forge. He was gay. So many of his drills and practices are still used today and taught at West Point. I think we do a disservice to our military to assume they will not act professionally in this situation. I do alot of volunteer work with veterans. All of those with whom I have spoken say the only thing they worry about is if the person next to them can do their job. There may be some initial adjustment for some but for the most part the people who are serving our country can and will do the job of the professional soldiers they are. Let's give them the credit they deserve.

We finally have the opportunity to have real honor by treating all of our soldiers equally. I was worried I would not live to see this day.

Gay soldiers can get killed as well as straight soldiers. They are all cannon fodder anyway.

We should be THANKING them for their willingness to serve our country.

Europeans are laughing at our idiotic prejudices.

"Gays celebrate repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'"

Not just homosexuals. In fact, I'd bet more straight people are celebrating its repeal than gays.

I think we do a disservice to our military to assume they will not act professionally in this situation.

Absolutely correct. Unprofessional behavior has it's own consequences. Sexual harassment policies may have to be updated or amended but most gays I would assume that choose to serve, do so to do their job and no other reason.

Europeans are laughing at our idiotic prejudices.

They shouldn't be. In most cases they set the precedent.

France has always been relatively prejudice- free when it comes to homosexuals. England is another matter, I agree.

Oscar Wilde found that out.

But generally, Europe is not so homophobic as we are.

I'd bet more straight people are celebrating its repeal than gays.

I would take that bet.

But generally, Europe is not so homophobic as we are.

Are you including Countries like Poland, Chez Republic, some parts of Germany, Sweden, and pretty much all of East Europe or are you just talking about the few countries that make up Western Europe?

I can tell you without a doubt that there is a great many places in Europe where coming out of the closet will get you a one way trip to an out of the way forest. There is many, many places where just speaking with the wrong accent will get you hospitalized for a week or more with multiple broken limbs.

There is very liberal Countries in Europe like France and the Netherlands but there is a great deal more which are very bigoted and anti-social to the U.S. Those who travel to Europe for those one week specials are introduced to the very best that Europe offers. The equivalent would be like taking a one week tour of San Francisco, Malibu, Beverly Hills, and Palm Springs and then thinking that all of the U.S. is the same exact way. It isn't.

If addition to policy changes, there's this intrusive faux family atmosphere that exists under the guise of accountability, tradition, etc that will prove to be problematic.

It's not problematic it's part of the military. Those who don't care for tradition, accountability, and a strong family environment shouldn't join the military. That's as simple as it gets. I don't get people who join or do things that they know they will not enjoy and then try and get the system to change around them. You either adapt to the military system or don't and face the consequences.

I won't miss seeing that go away; you wouldn't believe the amount of babysitting that leaders have to handle.

You do understand that the military is a family and family takes care of each other. I still have people who were in the military that I love just as much if not more than some of my closest relatives. It's what made me and made them willing to die for each other. You don't do that for a stranger.

We have to seriously learn to treat people as employees in that regard

And there is exactly your problem. They are not employee's. They are more than that. That kind of thinking gets a person looked over in promotions. Sure you'll do good in the short term but in the long term a person with that type of thinking begins to have serious issues from general respect to down right subversive behavior. You look after your soldiers and they will look after you. You don't and you get what you get. A leader who doesn't look after their soldiers isn't a leader for long. You remind me of a Lt. who talked down and treated all the soldiers like employee's. Then the Captain came and took each of us aside and asked each of us our opinions of the Lt. He was given a letter of reprimand which ended his career.

Those who join the military thinking that you are just an employee are wrong. You reflect the military both in your personal and active duty life. In fact you don't have a personal life, you don't have freedom, you don't have a right to dress how you like, and you don't have a right to state how you feel about something. A military man or woman is a property of the U.S. Government. Some leaders learn that careful maintenance and care leads to a well functioning machine and other leaders learn that treating that equipment with carelessness and abuse leads to a machine that is broken and hazardous to their health.

leaders to be so intimately familiar with their people on and off-duty.

A leader will not only become intimately familiar with their people but they will come to care for them and their families just as much as the soldier does. In the end the soldier doesn't fight for his country but for the person at his side. In my time of service I can think of no soldier I wouldn't of died for and better yet I can think of no soldier who wouldn't of died for me. That is what makes our military the best... and you want to change that.

There may be some initial adjustment for some but for the most part the people who are serving our country can and will do the job of the professional soldiers they are.

And those who can't will smash right into that wall.

As they say... Be careful for what you wish for.

You remind me of a Lt. who talked down and treated all the soldiers like employee's. Then the Captain came and took each of us aside and asked each of us our opinions of the Lt. He was given a letter of reprimand which ended his career.

And you remind me of a...victim. Your ideal antiquated view of the family atmosphere is going away. I'm going on my 21st year of both enlisted and officer service. I don't need you to tell me what this fighting force is all about or about taking care of people. We are all about efficiency and doing more and more with less and less. The rewards are no longer what they used to be. As a matter of fact, if you aren't focusing in parallel on a plan when the military boots you out with little warning, you are a fool. Careers are looking to be too short-termed by design in the future for people to sacrifice what they used to with intrusive leadership of THAT type. It is not profitable to take too much risk to intervene in the personal affairs of members anymore; we're zero defect, so as soon as the member has a dark mark, he is essentially done anyway...and so are you if you are deemed to have been derelict in reporting or disciplinary action.

Individuals who claim there is no place for gays in the military should look back to Valley Forge, when the US revolutionary army was nearly at it is end. Baron Von Stueben was dismissed from the Prussian General staff for allegations of homosexuality. Ben Franklin recruited Von Stueben with full knowledge of the reason for his dismissal. Washington welcomed him at Valley Forge, where Von Stueben took charge of organization and training. He organized the troops into regiments that fought and trained together. He organized and cleaned the camp to improve sanitation. He instituted a system of isolating the sick to reduce the rate of infection. He drafted the first manual for the army and instituted a rigorous training program. He turned the morale of the troops around and turned a rag-tag, largely defeated army into an effective one.

Your ideal antiquated view of the family atmosphere is going away.

Why would it? You haven't said anything to prove it is nor why you wish it to go away.

I don't need you to tell me what this fighting force is all about or about taking care of people.

Obviously somebody does and who better than a vet who has been there. I'm currently not in the military which allows me the freedom to post here. You shouldn't be, especially given your negative view point of the family atmosphere of the military unit.

The rewards are no longer what they used to be.

The rewards are never what they used to be and the rewards that you gain are never talked about. You're negativity is a little strong. You sound burned out, angry, and I believe you should seek help. You obviously are not thinking straight or you would of never posted here while being a member of the armed forces. This is enough to get you court martial and at the very least would be a career ending move. I don't know why you did it but you did. You might want to think on that.

It is not profitable to take too much risk to intervene in the personal affairs of members anymore

I know Officers and NCO's who are currently serving who would state otherwise. I know a General who is a good friend of mine who takes great pride in the family unit he has built with his soldiers.

so as soon as the member has a dark mark, he is essentially done anyway.

Nothing new with that. A letter of reprimand is a career ender. As you rise in rank the greater the responsibility.

and so are you if you are deemed to have been derelict in reporting or disciplinary action.

So don't be derelict in reporting or disciplinary duties. There is a reason for the Chain of Command. A Platoon Sergeant and Platoon Commander are the first lines of help. They are expected to handle the problems that arise and if they can't then they go to the next line and report. Doesn't always mean a dark mark as you put it. It could be as simple as a sick soldier who refuses to get help or a just telling the Captain why so and so is out in the middle of a field shining a big ass rock (that was my favorite punishment).

For those who want an honest view of what Military life is like a good film to watch is Restrepo. It's a National Geographic film where the camera crew was embedded with a platoon in the Korangal valley.

Rock of the Marne.

Obviously somebody does and who better than a vet who has been there. I'm currently not in the military which allows me the freedom to post here. You shouldn't be, especially given your negative view point of the family atmosphere of the military unit.

You are an obvious perpetual victim and fraud. I don't knock anyone for having spent even one day in uniform, and I absolutely hate when someone has to try to use that as clout to support an otherwise empty argument, but it's apparent to me that you haven't spent much more time than one day in uniform (if that is even true) and you sound remarkably foolish Mr. Vet who has been there. Give me a break. If you have talking points, let them stand on their own instead of launching ridiculous attacks based on manipulations of others' words...that are unchanged in original context for all to see. You've spouted nothing but generic soap box talk and generalities from the start. Are you waiting for a slow clap, a pat on the back, or what? Well here you go: Slow Clap for Jason

For those who want an honest view of what Military life is like a good film to watch is Restrepo. It's a National Geographic film where the camera crew was embedded with a platoon in the Korangal valley.

Yeah folks. Every imagineable military situation, context of culture is captured by the special cameras and microphones over at National Geographic. Don't miss it! (sarc)

You obviously are not thinking straight or you would of never posted here while being a member of the armed forces. This is enough to get you court martial and at the very least would be a career ending move. I don't know why you did it but you did. You might want to think on that.

People, read these words and recognize a fraud.

You are an obvious perpetual victim and fraud

And this is a violation of CoH.

I don't knock anyone for having spent even one day in uniform, and I absolutely hate when someone has to try to use that as clout to support an otherwise empty argument, but it's apparent to me that you haven't spent much more time than one day in uniform (if that is even true) and you sound remarkably foolish Mr. Vet who has been there.

Second violation.

You've spouted nothing but generic soap box talk and generalities from the start. Are you waiting for a slow clap, a pat on the back, or what?

Says the person who feels that personnel attacks against those that disagree with him are the proper conduct of an adult.

Yeah folks. Every imagineable military situation, context of culture is captured by the special cameras and microphones over at National Geographic.

Did you watch the movie? If not you have nothing to balance your judgment on. I would suggest you watch the movie and then come back here and then give me your take. Until then you are spouting nothing.

People, read these words and recognize a fraud.

Third Violation.

If you don't have anything nice to say then maybe you shouldn't say anything at all.

Rock of the Marne, Sir.

He will definitely hear about that! I have a feeling that there will be a lot of jokes circulating like that. My Dad fought 3 tours in Vietnam, and he told me that back then it was really different. They had a gay guy in their Platoon that caught hell from everyone at base and my Dad said it was taught to them that if you and a couple guys were in a 'fox-hole' taking cover, and a hand grenade was thrown in by the enemy that it was held until a few seconds before thrown so it would basically explode as soon as you noticed it hit the ground. Normal tactic. The guys used to joke about how they would want the gay guy in their fox-hole so they could throw him on it because you were trained that whoever was closest or saw it first, lay on it. The reason was that you might as well save your buddies lives, than all stare at it and die anyhow. That very thing happened, and the guy that caught so much hell for being gay immediately dove onto the grenade but it was a dud! Didn't explode. My Dad said after that nobody messed with him anymore and respected him. My dad told me that was the day his mind changed on the subject.

Your post is appalling on so many fronts, it would take eight to ten times the length of it to respond to each seriously messed-up argument and claim. Suffice it to say that you should be deeply, deeply ashamed of yourself. The only part of your post that you actually got right was the fact that gays tend to be better-educated than straights.

Your homophobic bigotry is stunning.

It was just a matter of time. I was against the repeal of it but I also understand that eventually even the strongest stone will turn to sand. I don't think there will be much difference than what there is now.

All of our men and women in the military deserve respect no matter what their sexual preference. And as long they all respect each other and do not allow their personal beliefs to get in the way of their duties to each other and to their country, then there should not be any issues. From things I've read in other blogs, it sounds like some straight guys are the ones who will cause the problems which is horrible. I am not gay, but we are all human beings. If we could all just respect each other and let people live their lives without protesting their beliefs, their religions, their sexual preference etc... we would be in a much better state than we are now that's for sure. Congratulations to you all, and to the USA.

Merry Christmas to all who celebrate Christmas, Happy Holidays to those who don't (or who don't admit it publicly) and Happy December to those who find no hope to celebrate about. But just because you choose not to hope please don't deny others of their hope. Enjoy your paid holiday.

I can't say i agree with the tone, or the homophobic remarks. But I think he's probably right about the deal.

(and unfortunately about the motivations of some of those involved in the deal).

Of course, that's how politics works these days - deals are made, things are traded. That's why looking at someone's voting record doesn't really mean much, as we don't know the reason they voted for or against a particular bill - it might have been because of a deal on something totally different.

Still, i think it's great that there has been another step on the road to equality! (even if they did have to give up a lot in return).

exactly how many of these "Hollywood Wealthy" do you think are out there anyway?

L. J.: Lets just say I am deeply appalled when I see a group of grown men dressed in so many different “costumes” at your gay pride day parades, is this your finest hour, you should be ashamed when looking on when grown men are painted, glittered, dressed like little children grinding on them selves in public as a form of “pride”? The fact is if you can’t control your pier group in public from continuing this behavior doesn’t expect fairness when it comes to issues much larger than your sexual orientation. The statement better educated came from your post not mine, you seem to like to twisted words, I said “they would be educated” not “better educated” your Freudian slip lets everyone know you think you are better than everyone else.

Babina: Hetrophobic homosexuals like your self have learned to politically bully anyone standing in the way, name calling is the new “in thing” for anyone opposing the new controversial sexual military policy.

Jason: you are also correct, that’s why my post is written in past tense.

Lucy1: I agree everyone should be equal; I am also the guy who will stop anyone from beating to death, or bulling someone who is gay, or just can’t defend themselves, that said whether it’s right or wrong provoking is still not recommended. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays

Tom: Was it the word “Pink” that made my remark “phobic”?

Maw: 1,237,653 give or take the number of times you have wondered the same question.

LetMeExplain-

I hope you will soon gather the courage to be truthful with yourself and come out of the closet. It will be the most difficult thing you'll ever do, but it will be the most liberating as well.

The display of your tortured sole here is difficult to watch given that you are so unaware of the transparency of the cover you attempt to construct for us.

U hope you have loved one's who will stand by you on your journey.

The lifting of your hate will be liberating for sure.

Lucy1, Thank you and same to you!!!

LetMeExplain: Don't worry about what Jimster says. To him everyone is Gay or just about to come out of the closet.

I do think there will be the stupid ideological Gay rush to join the military so they can flaunt their new found freedom or catch that 15 minutes in the sun and then they will hit the wall of the Military Machine. The reality of no camera's and unending days of Basic hell will be a stark reminder of a simpler life they had left where flaming buttless leather chaps were the norm. Those who decide to promote their sexuality in the service will find themselves an individual in a world where individuals don't exist.

I see only more pain and heartache for the Gay Community coming from a decision they thought would free them of it. At least that will be the short term effect. Long term effects are simply that the Gay population doesn't have enough members to make any kind of difference. Officers who decide to make their sexuality an issue (openly serving and flaunting it) won't be respected and will be passed over in promotion. We'll be visiting this issue for the next 50 years as the left will continue to launch attacks against the military for discriminating against Gays without realizing that the military is a whole different world that some just shouldn't enter.

The gay man or woman who is more conservative in their sexuality will continue to do just fine. Those who can't will experience a whole new level of hell they couldn't of imagined. You don't change a group like the military by forcing your beliefs upon them without repercussions. There will be repercussions. As they say... Be careful for what you wish sometimes you just might get it.

LetMeExplain,

My gay pride parades? So, I've personally organized and participated in them? And your evidence for/proof of this is where?

I can't stand those things any more than you. The people who participate in those are like the people of Westboro Baptist Church. Small fringe group who take things to extremes. So, would you agree, then, that it's okay for us to say all Christians are like the folks from Phelps' clan, and that, therefore, all Christianity should be cast out of society as a result? 'Cause that's exactly what you're saying about the gay community.

a simpler life they had left where flaming buttless leather chaps were the norm

Are you @!$%#ing kidding me? Tell me you just didn't say that! WOW. Talk about seriously homophobic larger than life legend you're promoting. You have to stop watching so many bad D-movies or patronizing the theatre if this is your idee fixee on the subject.

Officers who decide to make their sexuality an issue (openly serving and flaunting it)

Let's run w/ the assumption that you're not gay, as I couldn't imagine a gay man being this obtuse. Do you honestly think your de riguer flaming buttless chaps are going to be barracks loungewear? Do you flaunt your heterosexuality on the job, & if so, how? Do you really believe all gay ppl are male & they all want you bad? Or maybe the females are just giggling breathlessly & waiting for your macho self to come around the corner & "set em straight"? Who says they'll all be officers, your learned pal up there?

DADT was a joke & there are plenty of military members who ignored it & are already "openly serving". All this means is now they can't get kicked out for it by some homophobic upper echelon jerk. Have you ever been in the military to even make such remarks? There's no swishing on parade & no guyliner allowed & certainly no glittering gyrations & the repeal of DADT doesn't mean there will be or that there will be nightly orgies to which the straights aren't invited, either. Unless, of course, you want to get a room & start organizing one to celebrate coming out of the closet yourself. WTF?

WOW. I am seldom gobsmacked on the 'Vine anymore, but this was just....WOW.

I can't stand those things any more than you. The people who participate in those are like the people of Westboro Baptist Church. Small fringe group who take things to extremes.

As two people who have helped organize such events in the past, we hope you mean SOME people, not all. And SOME events, not all. The events we have run have all been quite respectable. But even the more wilder ones, such as San Francisco, still have PFLAG moms and conservative elements. Not everyone is hanging from the chandeliers in a gay pride event.

That was beautiful.

Thanks...it was from the heart. People should never have to live a lie in order to appease someone else's bigotry.

Wonderful post Gray.

Thank you. Its a great day for us all! : )

It is a great day Gary! Wonderful post :)

One

God bless you! And I'm an agnostic!!

Lol. Well, while I don't call myself an agnostic, I would suppose our beliefs are not at all that dissimilar. It is usually a matter of defining terms to ensure good understanding. Nonetheless, that brought a smile to my face. Thanks! : )

*rolls eyes, shakes head and sighs*

Let me know when you decide to give up all your worldly possessions and head for the hills to await the coming rapture. I got dibs on your house. Though, given your take on things, I'm sure that it's just a shotgun shack with ten dogs under the front porch and twenty-something rusty old car bodies in the front yard, and that it'd only be suitable as use for kindling in my fireplace, but hey. It'd at least save me a bit of money on firewood, if nothing else.

There are plenty of other places you could live, oh, wait, they all allow gays to serve openly in the military. Nevermind.....

XxCHExX: or whatever : give me a break!!! America was never a "god fearing country" and what you call "the american empire" fell long ago.

Ahhh...people always bemoaning "the way we never were"!

thats a good one i wonder how antichrist obama administration will handle that one....

Well, how is a Chaplin handled who believes that the races should be kept "pure" and that there should still be an interracial marriage ban?

Greg&Jeff,

Thank you! My sentiments, exactly. :)

Greg, there are no chaplins who believe the races should be kept pure. I didn't see even one of them in the Army when I served some 38yrs ago. There are many chaplins whose church's teach that homosexuality is a sin. There will be a time when Christian Chaplins will be booted out and Christians will be banned from serving if they mention the words Jesus Christ. Kinda like a DADT for Christians. It will happen.

There will be a time when Christian Chaplins will be booted out and Christians will be banned from serving if they mention the words Jesus Christ. Kinda like a DADT for Christians. It will happen.

Gotta love hyperbole, bet there were those who predicted that Whites would quit serving in the Military when it was integrated too.

"bet there were those who predicted that Whites would quit serving"

Quit serving and booted out are two different things. The hate speech thing will be first. Chaplins will be accused of hate speech. Preachers already are being accused of hate speech. You will get your utopia a little bit at a time.

Greg, there are no chaplins who believe the races should be kept pure.

Really? You've personally interviewed every single one? Wow. You must be omnipotent. Impressive.

Even if that is true now however, that wouldn't historically have been the case. There is a parallel to be drawn here. No doubt there were people unhappy with the integration of the military. Or with women being allowed in. (a bigger change then either blacks or gays really when you think about it). So the question becomes, how were those situations in the past handled? That's how you handle them now.

Simple.

" You've personally interviewed every single one?"

No Chaplins believe in purity of the races. All Chaplins believe that homsexuality is a sin.

Restating the same thing over and over doesn't make it become true. Frankly, you have no way of knowing what every single Chaplin believes regarding race issues unless you have interviewed them all on the subject. Have you?

Purity of the races died with Hitler. American soldiers and Chaplins died for that cause. Chaplins don't believe in the purity of any race, but every one of their Bibles condemns homosexuality. Chaplins teach the Bible. Chaplins will someday be prosecuted for hate speech. We can't mention Jesus Christ in our public schools. Some day those words will be forbidden in the Armed services as well.

Purity of the races died with Hitler

Really? Hmmm...didn't realize WWII was in the 1960's. You need to brush up on history and read up on the arguments used in the Loving Vs. Virginia case.

Chaplins don't believe in the purity of any race, but every one of their Bibles condemns homosexuality.

For the third time, you can't possibly know that. I see you go to the right wing school of thought where if you repeat something often enough people think it's a fact. That's not going to work around here. People here are a little more informed then the average Faux News viewer. So you're going to have to step up your game a bit. Again, unless you have interviewed each and every one of them you can't know what they think about race issues. You also cannot know what they think about homosexuality either. Just because all their bibles "condemn" homosexuality (highly subjective), doesn't mean that they themselves do.

Serving openly in the military should not only be about sexual preference. Jesus Christ is forbidden in our public schools, but the bully's are welcome and even murders. God I feel bad for our kids today. And they are the future of this nation.

Here is a great song called For Future Generations. Listen to it.

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=13590

Bubba,

Those same bibles condemn killing other humans, too, but there those chaplains are, offering moral support to people whose job it is to do just that. Trying to justify discrimination based on religious belief is never a good idea, especially for the religious, since to try to hold others to religious doctrine means they'll be expected to adhere to it themselves, and we see all the time that no religious zealot wants that.

you have no way of knowing what every single Chaplin believes regarding race issues unless you have interviewed them all on the subject. Have you?

He has no way of knowing what every single Chaplin believes. It is easy to know what most / many believe because of their public expressions. Very few religions and cultures around our world have open homosexuality as a valid choice. At least the Catholic Priests won't run away.

In my opinion, keeping Don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue would of been better with some reworking of policy. I would of changed the displine to where you were not discharged as one example.

The challenges with the openly gay policy will be the common issues. Will there be seperate gay / straight quarters like there are with men and women? Many people don't mind a gay co-worker but don't wish a gay roomate. Can two soldiers that are dating share the same barracks? Who gets reassigned? What about transgendered soldiers? Where is the line between "Just busting on a guy" and harassment? Will expressing disagreement with gayness be grounds for disipline? If Don't ask, don't tell is ended, can you now ask and do you have to tell? If it is unethical to force gays to lie about their sexuality, do they have to now fess up. Will there be a 'Don't ask, but your allowed to tell policy?

Will there be seperate gay / straight quarters like there are with men and women?

Apparently you missed the hearings during the study results a few weeks ago. The answer from the top brass was no.

Can two soldiers that are dating share the same barracks?

Going to say no on that one since it's doubtful they allow dating females and males to bunk together. So the rules should be the same.

What about transgendered soldiers?

What about them? Separate issue. Transgendered is not gay. A transgendered person could prefer the same (new) gender. But if not, then they are considered straights. A transgender person can even get legally married to an opposite gendered spouse.

Where is the line between "Just busting on a guy" and harassment?

Civilian society handles this. High schools handle this, other militaries around the world handle this. Not an issue.

Will expressing disagreement with gayness be grounds for disipline?

Is expressing disagreement with another religion from your own grounds for discipline? Bottom line is troops are there to serve and follow orders. Not complain about anything and everything.

f Don't ask, don't tell is ended, can you now ask and do you have to tell?

Finally a good question! In the grand scheme of things, everyone should be able to be more honorable now.

"Chaplins"?? I believe Charlie died years ago. And given his fun-loving ways, I doubt if he disapproved of gays. LOL

"Will expressing disagreement with gayness be grounds for disipline?"

Will it be hate speech, with the offenders discharged from the service? What does a Chaplain tell a young soldier when he asks if homosexuality is a sin? There will be a time where one will not be allowed to speak out about their opinons on the matter. The public schools are already forced to abide by these rules. The military is next.

"(highly subjective),"

An abomination is not a subjective term.

Can two soldiers that are dating share the same barracks? - Going to say no on that one since it's doubtful they allow dating females and males to bunk together. So the rules should be the same.

The military doesn't allow males and females to share the same barracks dating or not. As you pointed out this will not be the case for gays. The issues of currently dating soldiers, ex-lovers and the requirement that soldiers tell their commanding officers if involved in a gay relationship will be challenging. How will the military decide which member is reassigned?

What about transgendered soldiers? - What about them? Separate issue. Transgendered is not gay.

I can't imagine that Lesbian, gay and bi-sexuals will be allowed to be open about their sexuality but transvestites will still be not allowed to openly serve. I can't imagine LGBT advocates will accept one of the team being thrown under the bus. If a person born with a penis feels they are a female, will they live in male or female barracks? Do their bunkmates have any say and would their objections be reasonable? It will be an inevitable but rare problem.

Where is the line between "Just busting on a guy" and harassment? - Civilian society handles this. High schools handle this, other militaries around the world handle this. Not an issue

Does civil society handle this well? I believe the whole bullying thing of past couple months implies that high schools and teenagers do not handle the issue so well. Few significant armed forces in our world allow open gayness. The ones that do like the UK and Israel have had some challenges.

Will expressing disagreement with gayness be grounds for disipline? - Is expressing disagreement with another religion from your own grounds for discipline? Bottom line is troops are there to serve and follow orders.

Yes. If you express opposition to Islam or Christianity in the US military you can be disciplined. At the minimum your career is not going far. Expecting our soldiers to follow orders they believe are wrong and not question their orders, can be the highway to hell. Even if not in this specific case.

If Don't ask, don't tell is ended, can you now ask and do you have to tell? - Finally a good question! In the grand scheme of things, everyone should be able to be more honorable now.

Honesty is admirable. None the less, the in the closet gay guy is not a rare bird. I'm not sure requiring soldiers to be truthful with such matters is a sound idea, especially with teenagers. One of the major justifications for changing DADT was that service members had to lie. I can not imagine a policy where the only exception to military rules and culture is that you can still legally lie about your sexuality. The question if a soldier has to be honest about his sexuality and not lie, evade or deceive is an important one.

Will the military have a policy on 'Outing' someone? As we saw with the kid from Rutgers, that kind of stuff makes people choose death before 'dishonor'.

This policy change is not allowing gays to serve in the military. They have fought since the Revolutionary War. It was a common enough thing that you had 'Red Badge of Courage', written about the Civil War. Open gayness is something different and more challenging. Changing the policy was the easy part. Implementing it in a manner to gain more troops then you will lose will be a challenge

An abomination is not a subjective term.

That may be the funniest (and most ludicrous) comment we have seen all year. What is an "abomination" to someone is THE most subjective thing of all!

Exactly. How can you expect someone to fight for other's freedom while suppressing their own? It's more then ironic.

With all due respect, stuff it.

Letting someone serve openly and not be treated like a second class citizen is not evil. The evil was requiring people to do such things in the first place and letting it go on for so long. No one should be denied employment because of who they love. Period.

It always strikes me odd how so many deeply religious people are willing to speak for god as though he couldn't do what he wanted himself. I mean, to be honest, if homosexuality is such an abomination wouldn't he have taken care of it?

At any rate, all of these religious posts make me think the westboro baptist church finally got someone to provide them internet services in their area. If you truly hate gay soldiers in the military, stand on the corner with those freaks at a military family's funeral; otherwise, look past genders, religion, race, and sexuality and support your fellow f*cking humans.

Because the deeply religious types that you speak of have a God complex themselves. They think that God needs their help. Funny, God didn't need their help creating the universe or even this planet. Think he's got it covered.

Note to all so-called christians who think homosexuality is a sin: god created homosexuals.

Get over your stupid selves.

Susi lives! Hi lady! this is outstanding news is it not?

Yezzzzz dahlink I leev. Bwahhhhhhhahahahha!

;)

Hi Kind sir! This is a wonderful Christmas gift indeed.

Indeed it is sweetums indeed it is. Merry Christmas, Happy Solstice

hey susi!

you go girl!!!

Hey Tina :)

Thanks!

DADT:

Do ask. Do Tell. Carry on. FREELY!

:)

:) Cyni

Yes, Happy Christmas, Merry Solstice.

I served 23 years. I was free to say no for all 23 and did.

Fifth Horsemean - What the F*#^ are you talking about?

Why not what the hell we might as well let everyone play. I mean it's not like we have won a single fight that we have been in since that moron truman desegregated the military.

"that moron truman"????

those are fighting words!!!

harry s truman is the greatest president we have ever had!!!

he did a great service to our sorry ass country by desegregating the military!!!

You tell me that as soon as we actually win a war which that idiot made sure of

FACT Before 1947 america won every war it fought, after that we have a tie (korea) a loss (vietnam) and god knows who will win the mess were in now but I doubt it will be us.

I hope one day to see you all have the same rights as we heterosexuals do.

What new change? Gays are already there. And if you think fellow soldiers don't already know who's gay or at least suspect then you are fooling yourself.

To hear everyone carry on about this over the last year, and even today, you would think gays had never served a day in the military and that no straight girl or boy had ever taken a shower with a gay one. That's not the case in the civilian world and it isn't the case in the military world either. So let's all deal in reality shall we?

Greg & Jeff, you go!!!!

Steve-

That's possibly the stupidest reasoning I've ever seen for continuing discrimination.

Yes, there are stupid people out there, but on, we shouldn't base our policies to please the stupid.

Man, some people.

Well, let's see you stuff your life into a box for 17 YEARS and see if you think this could have waited even longer. Bottom line, if they hadn't done this the courts would have done it for them which the military was opposed to. So, that's why this was put on the front burner. It had already been tabled almost a year as it was to complete that survey that McCain and some others wanted so bad.

Those other points you raised are all very important things that they need to get to as well. And hopefully the next congress will. If they don't, well...expect another incumbent blood bath on both sides of the aisle once again.

Greg&Jeff,

Also, all those people out there spouting that it's going to cost the government too much money to allow gays to serve openly and subsequently have to give them equal benefits, to boot, here's something for them to think about.

Had the courts ruled DADT to be unconstitutional all the way up to the Supreme Court, it would've opened the government, and particularly the military, to untold numbers of lawsuits, since the government can certainly be sued, outside the protection of sovereign immunity, when it's found that the government has acted illegally against people.

By repealing DADT before it got that far, the government has shielded itself from such lawsuits, since the Supreme Court now won't get a chance to rule on its constitutionality--or unconstitutionality, as the case may've been. If nothing else, the naysayers can at least rejoice in the fact that the money the government would've spent defending itself in possibly tens of thousands of lawsuits will be saved.

Though, on an unrelated note, I'm going to go a bit conspiracy theorist here. The government recently decided to try to instruct the American public about what to do in the event of nuclear attack. The Cold War has been over for a long time now, but recent discoveries about North Korea's nuclear capabilities--namely, that they're years further along than we previously though--seems to've spooked them to such a depth that they're probably pretty sure some nuclear event will take place before this new standoff over there is all over with. In such an event, we will likely reinstate the draft, since our military will suddenly need to be many times bigger than it already is, and DADT would be the perfect draft dodge if it were still on the books. I've a suspicion that there were dealings along these lines behind the scenes of which we're not being made aware. Of course, as I said, this is purely conjecture, but the pattern I see developing certainly doesn't make in too implausible that this was how this last-minute repeal was finally brought about.

I can see it now some fancy nancy in its Sunday best waving its purse and hollering

where are all the terroristsssss.

The military has conveniently looked the other way in times of need before. DADT would not have been a barrier or an excuse to dodge. But you do raise some really good points. It IS interesting the way preparing for nukes is back on the table again. But that's what happens when you let these weapons get out. They WILL get used at some point by someone. Scary thought indeed.

True, but people forget that when one is a service member, one must often put aside personal beliefs, politics, religion, and other interests for the sake of the service. I assumed that someday same sex practices would be openly allowed in the military and have nothing against this, but I think a very controversial issue is being thrust upon the Armed Forces in order make it a catalyst for political change without concern for the widely varied attitudes about sexuality that exist in that kind of environment. In a broader sense, American society is nowhere near approaching anything like an un-prejudiced tolerance of sexual beliefs or general acknowledgement of personal sexual freedom. In all fairness, hiding one's sexual interests in order to avoid prejudice, judgement, or reprisal is not wholly limited to the gay community.

service members are now allowed to pursue same sex relationships. Doesn't this picture seem a bit "out of focus" to anyone?

The only out of focus here is you. You act as if the military is one big sexual smorgasbord for openly gay people wanting to serve. I am not saying that relationships won't happen. It has happened between heterosexual members of the armed forces, but to imply that it is their main objective to serve is ridiculous. Could it be that they just want to serve honorably, receive a good educational background, and give back to their country? I hope you don't mind that I used spellcheck on your quote, it needed it.

I gave or implied no such childish nonsense as you would suggest!

(Yes, you are correct in that my hurried typing did contain spelling errors and probably reflects poorly.)

Carry on is right! There have been gays in the military forever.

They should be thanked for their willingness to fight for our sorry ass country!

Exactly.

Our troops deserve more than we can ever give them! Gay, straight, black, brown, yellow, red, white, male, female, etc.

Thank you all!

You got that right Tina well said, like you mentioned anyone willing to put their life on the line for this country should be honored by us not discriminated against.

FR sent by the by.

McCain's remakrs included a statement that there were Marines in the hospital at Bethesda who lost their legs in battle...I know of several gay service members who lost their lives including a Marine who had to live a LIE to serve their country. He should be ashamed to have made that statement.

Although it is tragic that our soldiers have lost their lives and suffered devastating injuries, it does not make those deaths and injuries LESS tragic if the person was gay. It does make it worse in my opinion to have asked those gay service members to make that sacrifice while living a lie and being discriminated against, all while dieing for their country. It made me furious to hear him say that.

Kathy... that is why McCain deserves all of the crap coming his way. For him to say that, like straight soldiers are special, shows us how much of a coward McCain is. All McCain had to say was how it felt. He is such a big sore freaking loser. How dare he bring up those soldiers like that.

FREAKING COWARD IS WHAT McCAIN IS !!!!!

This took the cake as far as ridiculous rationale. I have heard every argument pro and con. Even for McCain this was over the top. I could not believe my ears. I think it should make CNN's "Ridiculist".

Now they just have to get the final vote in. Todays vote was for cloture. (Just in case some do not know about this procedural vote, cloture is the only procedure by which the Senate can vote to place a time limit on consideration of a bill or other matter, and thereby overcome a filibuster. Under the cloture rule (Rule XXII), the Senate may limit consideration of a pending matter to 30 additional hours, but only by vote of three-fifths of the full Senate, normally 60 votes. Definition via Senate webpage glossary reference.)

Spot on Gray. A lesbian in my training group, who only a select few of us knew of her sexual orientation saved my life in a medical emergency. One time, a bunch of us were at the local watering hole and I found her in a booth, lip locked to a guy. I yanked her outside and angrily confronted her about it. I told her, you are a lesbian and then asked her what the hell she was doing with that guy. She broke down in tears telling me she had heard someone was going to out her. This was the only way she could think of for that not to happen. How sad is that when a person has to go to that length just to continue in an armed service that you love and serve with pride an honor. Never mind that she was academically top of the class and eventually became a top notch nurse in the civilian sector. To some, all that mattered was that she might have monogrammed HERS and HERS towels.