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Pope: Church must reflect on what allowed abuse

Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:16 PM EST
world-news, eu, church, abuse, vatican, pope-benedict-xvi, catholic-church
Nicole Winfield, Associated Press
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showing 1 of 2 photos
<p>Pope Benedict XVI, framed by Christmas decorations, delivers his Angelus prayer from his studio window overlooking St. Peter's Square, at the Vatican, Sunday, Dec. 19, 2010. (AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)</p>

Pope Benedict XVI, framed by Christmas decorations, delivers his Angelus prayer from his studio window overlooking St. Peter's Square, at the Vatican, Sunday, Dec. 19, 2010. (AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

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— Pope Benedict XVI told Vatican officials Monday that they must reflect on the church's culpability in its child sex-abuse scandal, but he also blamed a secular society in which he said the mistreatment of children was frighteningly common.

In his traditional, end-of-the-year speech to Vatican cardinals and bishops, Benedict said revelations of abuse in 2010 reached "an unimaginable dimension" that required the church to accept the "humiliation" as a call for renewal.

"We must ask ourselves what was wrong in our proclamation, in our whole way of living the Christian life, to allow such a thing to happen," the pope said.

Benedict also said, however, that the scandal must be seen in a broader social context, in which child pornography is seemingly considered normal by society and drug use and sexual tourism are on the rise.

"The psychological destruction of children, in which human persons are reduced to articles of merchandise, is a terrifying sign of the times," Benedict said.

He said that as recently as as the 1970s, pedophilia wasn't considered an absolute evil but rather part of a spectrum of behaviors that people refused to judge in the name of tolerance and relativism.

As an avalanche of cases of pedophile priests came to light, church officials frequently defended their previous practice of putting abusers in therapy, not jail, by saying that was the norm in society at the time. Only this year did the Vatican post on its website unofficial guidelines for bishops to report pedophile priests to police if local laws require it.

"In the 1970s, pedophilia was theorized as something fully in conformity with man and even with children," the pope said. "It was maintained — even within the realm of Catholic theology — that there is no such thing as evil in itself or good in itself. There is only a 'better than' and a 'worse than.' Nothing is good or bad in itself."

"The effects of such theories are evident today," he said.

The traditional Christmas speech to Vatican cardinals and bishops is an eagerly anticipated address that Benedict uses to focus the church hierarchy on key issues.

Benedict has previously acknowledged that the scandal was the result of sin that the church must repent for, and make amends with victims. He repeated Monday that the church must do a better job of screening out abusers and helping victims heal.

"It is fundamentally disturbing to watch a brilliant man so conveniently misdiagnose a horrific scandal," said Barbara Blaine, president of the main U.S. victims' group Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.

She said the scandal wasn't caused by the 1970s but rather by the church's culture of secrecy and fixation with self-preservation in which predator priests and the bishops who moved them around rather than turn them in were rarely disciplined.

"Whenever the pope tires of talking about abuse and starts acting on abuse, he should focus on taking immediate, pratical steps to oust those who commit, ignore and conceal clergy sex crimes first," Blaine said.

The sex abuse scandal, which first exploded in the U.S. in 2002, erupted on a global scale this year with revelations of thousands of victims in Europe and beyond, of bishops who covered up for pedophile priests and of Vatican officials who turned a blind eye to the crimes for decades.

Questions were raised about how Benedict himself handled cases both as archbishop in Munich and as head of the Vatican office that handled abuse cases.

Recently, the Vatican released documentation showing that as early as 1988 then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sought to find quicker ways to permanently remove priests who raped and molested children in a bid to get around church law that made it difficult to defrock priests against their will.

While Ratzinger was unsuccessful then, Vatican rules now allow for fast-track defrocking. But victims advocates say the Vatican still has a long way to go in terms of requiring bishops to report sex crimes to police and release information and documentation about known pedophiles.

© 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (153)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3
qw3e5rfewDeleted
Sally - Snoopy's Sister

Absolutely, and I would say that other large religious organizations such as the Southern Baptist Convention, whose many members tolerate, endorse, and encourage child beatings and oppressing women and others such as The Church of Latter Day Saints should also be equally investigated as these practices have gone on for decades. I've witnessed it myself. All child abuse under the name of religious worship or group behaviors should be held under some scrutiny by responsible members of the community, and this is what we call concerned citizens.

  • 10 votes
#2 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:32 AM EST
jhoopy56

...or, you know, "disgusted and morally outraged observers". First the RCC steals the victims' powers of criticism and discernment, then completes the moral outrage by abusing their bodies and pleading innocence based upon some nonexistent permissive secular context? Religion is vile deceit. Apology for religion is pathological supplication...

  • 6 votes
#2.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:40 AM EST
Sally - Snoopy's Sister

1.1 - Really. But what is a shame is that there are some very well-run churches with compassionate and ethical congregations that do care and contribute to local communities in a number of ways. These persons engaging in criminal behaviors are so deeply entrenched with hit men and money that they are demagogues, with no religious convictions at all.

It is these persons that cause many to believe that God doesn't exist and organized religion is not feasible. But, I suppose it is in part the fault of church members that have tolerated such conduct for years and have not held them accountable for their actions.

  • 6 votes
#2.2 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:51 AM EST
Roy-933464

Pope Benedict XVI said Monday the Catholic Church must reflect on what is wrong with its message and Christian life in general that allowed for the widespread sexual abuse of children by priests.

Pope had better get a few extra body guards, didn't he ever read Dan Brown? (sarc)

  • 2 votes
#2.3 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:07 AM EST
demmywemmy

It looks like the pope is throwing out a big beach ball into the crowd.

"Here, play with this while I read my speech."

  • 8 votes
#2.4 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:30 AM EST
jhoopy56

Alternate caption:

"He was a big lad, he was... So I reached up a grabbed him by those chiseled shoulders and I..."

  • 4 votes
#2.5 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:49 AM EST
Debora-389330

Sally you have NO clue what you are talking about. Again someone opens their mouth with an empty head and spits out stupidity. Baptist do not tolerate, endorse, and encourage child beatings and oppressing women.

There are idiots in every church affiliation but not all people are like the nuts who protest brave soldiers funerals, and then there are ignorant people who lie about them and try to group all people into one bunch.

What the pope needs to do is encourage good Bible study and discourage people confessing their sins to earthly priests. Christ is our high priest, we don't need priests to confess to, it is not a man's job to forgive us of our sins.

  • 3 votes
#2.6 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:31 AM EST
King Dave

Former Hitler Youth the Pope: "The Church must Reflect on it's Child sexual abuse.."

"REFLECT" WTF! That is what the Vicar of Christ on Earth, the infallible Pope Ratzinger say an appropriate punishment and solution to this crises in their Church should be, "Reflection." To look back at the horrible abuse of impressionable children, first threatened and terrified with visions of hell, and just think about it for a while. This guy is the Sarah Palin of Religion. 25 to life would be more appropriate punishment!

  • 9 votes
#2.7 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:36 AM EST
magnoliaave

She doesn't know what she is talking about, Deborah.

There are these people in every walk of life....Boy Scount leaders, teachers, uncles, grandpa..even Dads. It happened with my nephew with his own Dad.

It's vogue these days to blame every misfunction in our society on Christians or religion. There are vile people everywhere, therefore, I will protect my grandchildren with my life, if necessary.

  • 4 votes
#2.8 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:43 AM EST
MotorcycleEmptiness

What the pope needs to do is encourage good Bible study and discourage people confessing their sins to earthly priests. Christ is our high priest, we don't need priests to confess to, it is not a man's job to forgive us of our sins.

What that charlatan needs to do is admit culpability. He has the gall to suggest that secularism is to blame for this? For those who are not religious, it appears that he is blaming everyone but himself!

He tried this strategy earlier this year in his visit to Britain. All he did was piss people off.

  • 6 votes
#2.9 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:38 AM EST
writer21177

I too am missing a motorcycle in my life MotorcycleEmptiness, I would ride a 500 right now I am so desperate for a bike. you are not alone.

    #2.10 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:43 AM EST
    Levi777

    @Deborah - Wow, Deborah! Chill OUT! Consider what pockets of evil exist among the Christian church. It is not the whole, or even most of Christianity, but in support of Sally's statement, look at the outrageousness of the Westboro Baptist Church? Are they part of any Baptist convention? Not at all. And if the Baptist name is Copyrighted, maybe someone needs to sue that church for Copryright infringment.
    I don't know why Sally would talk about Baptists as she did. Perhaps there something in her experience, but I don' think she was saying "all Baptists".

    • 4 votes
    #2.11 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:51 AM EST
    Max 3PO

    That would be the Holy Pope Orb, it cause's blindness and ignorance, not to be mistaken for the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

    • 4 votes
    #2.12 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:01 PM EST
    Rich-2229277

    Proof positive! Bull $@*&# does not just come from bulls...:)

    • 5 votes
    #2.13 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:20 PM EST
    Levi777

    MotorcycleEmptiness, that was the same spin the college of Cardinals was voicing to the world. You know, last month Amazon faced a world wide boycott heading into the Christmas season because they offered for sale a self-published book that was a "how to" book on pedophilia. I read online exerpts of it, and the guy is mad as a hatter, and the public outrcy was indeed justified. What he put forth, and I have heard this from a couple of other sources, is not a violent, confrontational, rip the clothes off encounter, but a gentle, soothing mutually beneficial.......HOGWASH! And that's the same garbage the pope is spewing now. We humans are born with a sense of modesty, and a child is taught to lose it. Yeah, 5 year olds may run around naked, but they don't do it in public, and it's not for sexual purposes, and it's from the bathroom to the bedroom.

    It was for things such as these that God used Martin Luther to usher in the Protestant reformation. And the pope dares to issue a statement saying "The Protestants will never experience the full blessing of God until they come back under the umbrella of the catholic church."? What, don't catholics have enough children to molest, they need ours too? The sooner God destroys the vatican the sooner Christians can return to a pure walk before God.

    • 8 votes
    #2.14 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:35 PM EST
    truthseekerin10

    Absolutely, and I would say that other large religious organizations such as the Southern Baptist Convention, whose many members tolerate, endorse, and encourage child beatings and oppressing women

    Ummmm Sally Snoopy's Sister, can you post some factual evidence that the Southern Baptist Convention openly endorses this type of action or are you just spouting off with such a derail?

    • 2 votes
    #2.15 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:40 PM EST
    1devon

    All child abuse under the name of religious worship or group behaviors should be held under some scrutiny by responsible members of the community, and this is what we call concerned citizens

    Amen Sally, but don't hold your breath. Religion and abuse go hand in hand.

    • 1 vote
    #2.16 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:50 PM EST
    truthseekerin10

    Religion and abuse go hand in hand.

    Prove it. Prove that anytime you have religion you have abuse. And prove it with facts not speculation or opinion.

    • 4 votes
    #2.17 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:53 PM EST
    cowboygrandpa

    First off, for the Pope to compare Christianity to the rest of society is crazy.

    We are to separate ourselves from the ways of the world, not engage in the wickedness then blame the world for our behavior. How dare the man, notice I did not call him god on earth, speak as though his psychological bull crap is anything more than a weak excuse for the non Christian behavior allowed by the RCC.

    This is not what was taught by Christ, when He said suffer the litle children unto me-paraphrased-. What hope is there when a supposed Christ based organization allows the victimization of it's hope for the future, the children within it's organization. The RCC has lost it's charade of posing as Christ's church. It is showing that it instead sides with our enemy Satan, through the tortures and murders done in the inquistions, the holy wars to gain wealth and power, the allowance of sin to be paid for with money, gold, or some other thing instead of the blood of Christ, the abuse of women and children.

    No wonder the church wants their follower's to have as many children as they can, their religious leaders need more victims, and people topay for what the church allows.

    To those who are Catholic, this is not an attack on you. It is an attack on the lies you have been fed through the years by leaders who sought to control you and cause you to be cast into the pit with them, all the while telling you that they are holy and you will burn if you don't believe them.

    Read The Holy Bible and see where Christ call's your leaders what they are. Wolves in the clothing of sheep seeking to lead you astray from Him, with their lies and wickedness.

    • 7 votes
    #2.18 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:59 PM EST
    McSpocky

    He doesn't want the church to be blamed for the scandal, so he is simply shifting the blame somewhere else. In other words, he lies.

    • 10 votes
    #2.19 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:13 PM EST
    Larry-1857406

    He doesn't want the church to be blamed for the scandal, so he is simply shifting the blame somewhere else

    Exactly. And this really grinds my nerves too:

    Benedict also said, however, that the scandal must be seen in a broader social context, in which child pornography is seemingly considered normal by society and drug use and sexual tourism are on the rise.

    What society does he live in?

    This guy is a flake, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has abused children. He spends the whole article defending the actions of the catholic church as "considered normal" in society.

    The catholic church is falling apart. Dioceses are closing down all over the country. They're finally being exposed for the frauds they are.

    • 8 votes
    #2.20 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:26 PM EST
    Andrew-1162039

    Of course he wants to blame the secular world. It would be great for him if he could divert attention to another group for a Catholic problem, and a problem exacerbated by Catholic practices. What he doesn't mention is the secular world doesn't give a pass to pedophiles. They're arrested, prosecuted, and tarred and feathered whenever they are discovered in the secular world, as opposed to the Catholic world where they are simply shuffled off to another location where they can continue to abuse children.

    I'd wager requiring celibacy and demonizing sex among the clergy also has plenty of negative psychological effects which contribute to these problems. It's like telling someone not to pee, both ludicrous and unhealthy.

    • 4 votes
    #2.21 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:35 PM EST
    ocean lover

    All these priests who have molested children and were just moved on to different parishes and different kids when the abuse became known sicken me. Before the man who is pope now became the pope he was one of those who covered it up and sent the sick perverted pieces of sh@t on to molest other kids. I look at the pope and he sickens me. I wouldn't spit on him if he was on fire. The ones covering it up, and allowing it to continue are just as guilty as the sickos doing the molesting. In fact by covering it up and allowing it to continue they are worse in my opinion.

    • 2 votes
    #2.22 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:09 PM EST
    determined0a1

    I am Catholic and I want all the rotten priests to be out of the Church and jailed. No coverup and money for the lawyers,

    • 6 votes
    #2.23 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:45 PM EST
    cjcold

    Being foolish enough to believe in religion, being egotistical enough to want to have power in this religion, and being warped enough to swear off women and embrace celibacy for life sounds like a recipe for emotional disaster. It doesn't surprise me at all that catholic priests target young boys for their pent up sexual frustrations. What does surprise me is that all of them are not pedophiles and/or addicted to alcohol or drugs.

    • 2 votes
    #2.24 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:42 PM EST
    tychonaut

    truthseekerin10

    Prove it. Prove that anytime you have religion you have abuse. And prove it with facts not speculation or opinion.

    I am not the one who you responded to, but I'd like to comment if I can.

    I don't think you could argue something like that with hard facts, it is too broad a topic. I could just as easily ask you to prove the existence of *GOD* with facts, not speculation or opinion...

    But we aren't going to go there.

    I would just like to say that I think the basic premise of Christianity that we, every one of us... each little beautiful baby.. is born a tainted, guilty sinner who is destined for eternal suffering and damnation unless we believe in something we have absolutely no way to objectively confirm... to believe that some of our most primal, natural, and pleasurable human behaviours are in fact evil and endanger our very souls...

    Well... I think thats pretty abusive.

    On a more general level.. it is hard for me to think of any large heirarchical system that is not rife with abuses of power. From government to law enforcement to the military. Why should religion be any different?

    • 2 votes
    #2.25 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:15 AM EST
    Writersview

    Perhaps, if Catholic priests would be allowed to marry rather than stay celibate as a requisite, sexual abuse may be lessened if not totally eradicated.

    • 2 votes
    #2.26 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:16 AM EST
    Larry-1857406

    Perhaps, if Catholic priests would be allowed to marry rather than stay celibate as a requisite, sexual abuse may be lessened if not totally eradicated.

    That doesn't explain why they molest young boys.

    • 5 votes
    #2.27 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:12 AM EST
    mtpromises

    the church draws pedophiles to it's midst because of the free access to children, and since the church actively covers for them, they keep coming into the fold.. sickos

    • 4 votes
    #2.28 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:05 AM EST
    Askari

    Excuse me, but wasn't this pope one of the people who played "shuffle the molester" by transferring some of the clergy involved in child sexual abuse to other parishes without punishment or even defrocking? And then he has the nerve to try to blame "secular" society's common abuse of children.

    Pope Benedict, STFU and turn yourself in! I challenge ALL Catholics to press for this man's resignation and indictment. To hell with the Vatican's sovereignty. What about the innocent children?

    • 2 votes
    #2.29 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:31 PM EST
    SAtownMytown

    Sally- Snoopy's Sister,
    I agree 100% with what you stated in post #1. IMO, ALL churches need to be investigated and justice needs to be served. I got what you were saying.

    Debra-389330, truthseekerin10, and magnoliaave are jumping hard on you. I bet they're Baptists and LDSers. That's just their consence wieghing haevy on them, because they don't want to see the truth, that all churches need to face justice. some more so than others, but never the less. Criminal history for decades, now, has reports coming from all over the world about the nightmares in some of these churches.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm Cathlic. But even I want to see the demise of these religious crimes. And I mean now.

    • 1 vote
    #2.30 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:13 PM EST
    Dr. Riccardo Privitera

    SaTownMyTown. I agree with you 100%; all mainstream and non mainstream Churches need to be investigated, and perpetrators brought in front of the Courts and in some cases in front of the International Courts to answer for such crimes. Protestant denominations are even worse in a way than the Catholic ones, especially for what they did and still do in Africa and other 3rd World countries in relations to the "so called ministries", suffices to check the reports of the WHO, and the UN Inspector General's Reports (Kauffmann), to see that child abuse and torture are just the tip of the iceberg, in respects to the crimes these bastards commit hiding behind their so much flaunted Christianity.

    • 1 vote
    #2.31 - Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:52 AM EST
    Reply
    jhoopy56

    Hmmm. So the church will "reflect" on this. Does this mean they will be looking into a mirror for what we in the big world call "clues"?

    And what, exactly, was that wandering opinion about the nature of "nouvelle pedophilia" in the context of "the sinful now"? Jeez, if there were a God he'd have to cosider removing the brokerage license for his name from the RCC.

    But that's a big "if". Actually, there is no "if" at all. (Pssst! There is no God, just over-articulated and obscure rationalization for a sky-fairy who makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy. We're the stewards of life on this planet and those responsible for the welfare of our fellow beings. It's really all up to us... Pass it on...)

    • 3 votes
    Reply#3 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:32 AM EST
    Levi777

    Too little too late, jhoopy. Believe in God/don't believe in God...just too little too late.

    • 2 votes
    #3.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:53 AM EST
    demmywemmy

    Believe in God/don't believe in God..

    What a simplistic and backward comment...you need to study the history of the Abrahamic religions. Start with the excellent The Case For God by Karen Armstrong, who herself is a freelance monotheist and respected by all of the leaders of the three faiths.

      #3.2 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:09 PM EST
      ivanho75

      ..."the very act of Armstrong's explanation of what God is or is not--regardless of how verbose, abstract, and murky--is itself a proclamation of what she claims to know (and at great, great length no less). Don't let her reliance on the notion of apophatic theology--defining God by what it isn't--fool you. She claims to know that certain people are wrong about God and religion. She claims to know what qualities do not apply to God. That does not sound like a sophisticated, super-tolerant statement of ignorance to me..."

      http://www.examiner.com/secularism-in-national/karen-armstrong-versus-sam-harris-playing-the-socrates-card

      Karen Armstrong is a shyster, a huckster, the worst of kind of religious apologist.

      "Fluency in theology--the exhaustive study of that which is wholly imaginary--is not required to deny the veracity of invented supernatural claims."

      • 1 vote
      #3.3 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:23 PM EST
      ivanho75

      sorry demmywemmy.... I like you. I just.....I am at the end of my rope with Levi777 and his/her trolling....

      what does that inane tautololgy even mean???????

      Serioulsy, I quit these message boards......I think I have reached my limit....lol....maybe not.....

      Levi777- never before has a person I have never met made me so goddammn sad..... so f'ing sad for the fate of humanity.....pure sadness is what I feel when you post....just...pain..

      • 3 votes
      #3.4 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:00 AM EST
      Happily BLUE in Ohio

      ivanho75,

      Use the "Ignore this Author" under the exclamation point at one of Levi777's posts. Rather effective, I must say.

        #3.5 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:41 PM EST
        Levi777

        Ivanho, that's fine if you want to quit Newsvine, however I would encourage you not to do so. I know that many on here have been abusive towards me and my belief in Jesus Christ. No matter how I voice God's truth as found in the Bible, I have been bashed, my words twisted, hated, and all without remorse or an apology. Yet I keep returning because I know that God may grant repentance to some here. You do not love the truth, and the truth is hidden from you.

        Take for example my comment, "believe in God/don't believe in God...just too little too late"

        And consider demmywemmy's comment: "What a simplistic and backward comment...you need to study the history of the Abrahamic religions."

        First of all, this comment on the Pope's comment, which is the point of the Vine, was intended to be non-confrontational, but merely "whether one believes in God or not, the Pope's comments are too little/too late." And consider the inappropriate reaction.

        Could not demmywemmy know from all my previous posting that I indeed am not only a son of Jacob but have studied the Abrahamic religions, and indeed can run circles around most on here who think they know the Bible and yet constantly misquote it and pull scriptures out of context...even failing to understand the basic concept of Christianity?

        You have reached the point of frustration that you have because you do not love the Truth, because you do that which is evil. This does not make you abnormal or exceedingly wicked. It makes you normal, and God has provided a way for us to escape the penalties of our wickedness.

        Ivanho, it brings me no happiness that you feel the way you do. Perhaps if you and I had discussed, rather than throwing barbs and reacting, we would have both grown in understanding. I read some of your comments and yet you feel sad for the fate of humanity?

        Consider this one: who cares? marriage vows aren't worth the piece of toilet paper they're written on.

        Is that true? Can you not understand Ivanho, that it is not the paper that makes marriage vows of value?

        I urge you, Ivanho, to take a break from Newsvine. I have read through some of your comments and this is not the only place where you have said, "I've had it".

        And as for you, Happily BLUE, I encourage you to judge rightly, and if you feel you HAVE judged rightly, and reject what I post on newsvine, then by all means put me on ignore. I will not change the message.

        • 1 vote
        #3.6 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:04 PM EST
        drpaul

        ivanho75, Happily BLUE in Ohio, demmywemmy...please, PLEASE stop feeding it!!!

          #3.7 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:13 PM EST
          Levi777

          ah, drpaul, the reprobate. How are you today, you enemy of the truth? I mean this truly, even though you reject the One who is able to save you, and so place yourself outside of any hope to escape what is coming, I hope you have an enjoyable time this week, and this weekend. Truly. I may be in opposition to you on so many fronts, but I can wish you a peaceful and happy time.

          • 1 vote
          #3.8 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:39 PM EST
          Reply
          sarfssardDeleted
          bnhyujkiopDeleted
          erqeqwDeleted
          HAL9000-0

          — Pope Benedict XVI said Monday the Catholic Church must reflect on what is wrong with its message and Christian life in general that allowed for the widespread sexual abuse of children by priests.

          Well, let's see.  Christian life per Jesus is OK. So that is not the problem.  Christian life per the Vatican may be an issue.

          Your message?

          Maybe it's your non-biblical celibacy requirement for your priesthood that is a magnet for all kinds of sexual deviates that is a problem.

          Can it possibly be that simple?

          DUH?

          • 3 votes
          Reply#7 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:52 AM EST
          OomYaaqub

          Maybe it's your non-biblical celibacy requirement for your priesthood that is a magnet for all kinds of sexual deviates that is a problem.

          You mean to say we can eliminate pedophilia just by marrying off all the pedophiles? Huh? Did it never occur to you that such people are attracting to jobs where they have access to kids? The orientation generally predates the job. I am not a Catholic or even a Christian and I don't support mandated celibacy, but come on, this is a separate problem.

          • 3 votes
          #7.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:45 AM EST
          AK Luahiwa

          You mean to say we can eliminate pedophilia just by marrying off all the pedophiles? Huh? Did it never occur to you that such people are attracting to jobs where they have access to kids? The orientation generally predates the job. I am not a Catholic or even a Christian and I don't support mandated celibacy, but come on, this is a separate problem.

          Actually, I believe celibacy is the major problem, the fact these men can't have sexual intercourse puts them in an unusual situation. Just look at any person whose been incarcerated for a long period of time, they commit sexual acts that were previously alien to them.

          • 5 votes
          #7.2 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:54 AM EST
          Levi777

          Oom, I agree with Hal. You may not eliminate it, but you will certainly bring a better balance to the life of the priests and unresolved urges would not occur, unless of course they mad the wife mad.

          • 3 votes
          #7.3 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:01 PM EST
          Jerryf11

          You mean to say we can eliminate pedophilia just by marrying off all the pedophiles? Huh? Did it never occur to you that such people are attracting to jobs where they have access to kids? The orientation generally predates the job. I am not a Catholic or even a Christian and I don't support mandated celibacy, but come on, this is a separate problem.

          Becoming a man of the cloth is attractive to sexual deviants. Where else can a pedophile blend into a community and have access to children, outside of working for a school. Plus, he gets the cover of the cloth, and the Church has shown repeatedly they will cover for their own, regardless of the charges or how horrific the crime.

          Hey, they sent Bernie the Pimp to the Vatican after he covered for all of the rapists here in MA. He gets to eat lobster and live in a palacial estate while the men tormented by the rapist priests he shuffled along live with the horror of their childhoods.

          I am a non-believer, but in a way I hope there is a hell, because these supposed holy men will burn.

          • 3 votes
          #7.4 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:41 PM EST
          Therese Nelson

          Wow, I see all of the attention on the Pope's words. Yep, this is despicable, these men using the cloth of their priesthood and the trust to harm children.

          Now, that the Pope has your attention, let's Stop Abortion. That is the ultimate child abuse.

          • 3 votes
          #7.5 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:12 AM EST
          cowboygrandpa

          T N:

          #3.5

          Abortion is not child abuse, it is murder. Premeditated murder as the person allowing it has thought about and consented to it.

          The unborn child I believe is in heaven with God, never allowed to live the life that would have ben here on earth.

          There are cases for abortion, and women should have that choice. But to use abortion as a birth control method is wrong.

          • 4 votes
          #7.6 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:55 AM EST
          ivanho75

          That said, I believe I have some very strong emotional and logical arguments in favor of abortion:

          1) Straight To Heaven Argument -

          All those dead souls get beamed straight to heaven. Think about all the future souls that would have gone to hell when they had sinned as adults. In fact, abortion is equivalent to Jesus on the cross. The mother takes the future sin of the child onto herself by potentially sending herself to hell for having an abortion, all the while guaranteeing the soul of the fetus flys straight to heaven into the arms of Jesus. That is the ultimate sacrifice.

          2) The Law of Unintended Consequences Argument (or Abortion Creates Life Argument) -

          Say a women plans to have 3 children in her lifetime. If she has an abortion when she is young, her third child will be the unintended consequence of choosing to have that abortion. In other words, I hazard a guess that millions of people around the world would not have been born without abortion. Voila! Abortion is the direct cause of millions of souls to enter the world, plus those aborted souls go straight to heaven! Win-Win!

          3) What Life is Really Worth Argument -

          Do we really promote sanctity of life above all else in society?? I would argue that life is rather cheap around the world and that our actions betray our so-called convictions. I think we can start making sanctimonious judgements about abortion when we peace, harmony, and altruism is the true paradigm of humanity.

          4) Benefits to Society Argument -

          As pointed out in this article, and by Stephen Leavitt in Freakenomics. Abortion actually helps society by not producing an entire wave of unwanted, poor children.

          5) The Applied Ethics Argument -

          We assume that life has some form of ultimate meaning for all people. The fact that suicide perennially ranks in the top 10 for mortality in most countries, I think that shows this is a specious idea. The truth is, life is hard and very, very painful for some people. Forcing people to be born into circumstances where life may be very unpleasant and actually torturous seems dogmatic and doesn't consider reality.

          6) Life Is Pure Chance Argument (The Vissiccitudes Argument)-

          As any man will tell you, bazillions of potential humans are being chucked into tissues, socks, and dirty underwear daily around the world. One less wet dream as a teenager by our dad's and you or I wouldn't be here to argue this. The vissiccitudes of fate my friend! Some "people" are just slated to be abortions like some "potential people" were slated to be knucklebabies.

          Let's do some basic math Cowboy Grandpa. Say X is the percentage of souls that go heaven and Y is the number of aborted fetuses. Since Y= 100 when can come up with a formula of Y/X as a numerical representation of the number of souls we save by abortion. For arguments sake, let's say 25% of people go to heaven and 75% got to hell. Since 100% of aborted fetuses fly straight to heaven, we can deduce we are saving souls at a 3-1 ratio.

          But you might say" Ahh.. but what about the mothers? Aren't they damned?" Yes, but we can assume a percentage of them will repent and be forgiven.

          Hence we are left with the following scenario. Since 100% of all aborted fetus souls go straight to heaven, and less than 100% of mothers who have an abortion will be damned, it is a mathematical certainty that abortion saves souls.

          Therefore, abortion is moral in the most profound sense possible. It is literally saving souls from hell.

          Lest we forget that a large percentage of pregnancies end in miscarriage. I am forced to conclude from this that God is the greatest abortionist of all time.

          • 1 vote
          #7.7 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:34 AM EST
          cowboygrandpa

          ivanho75:

          I have been taught to pray for mercy because I want mercy, I have learned through the years that it is hard to wish for mercy for those who choose not to show mercy. But still, I must because God prefers mercy over sacrifice. Those babies are being sacrificed, because in most cases, the mother got pregnant and doesn't want the child.

          Do you think God does not know their hearts ?? Do you think that they were inpregnated by accident ?? Do you think that God does not know what they will do before they do it ?? Do you think God is showing all who will see, the reasons He says what He says about sex outside of the married man and woman ?? Do you wonder why there are so many different sexually transmitted diseases today ??

          You think that in your numbers you have logic, you think you show wisdom ?? By your logic we should just kill all people under the age of understanding of what sin is and there by save them from hell. One problem there would be no one left, because we would all have to die.

          I really hope that you find some mercy in your heart. The women who go through these abortions can be forgiven, but it is really hard for them to forgive themselves later. Most find their sacrifice to be overwhelming, and the idea of mercy foreign. I really do feel sorry and have compassion for their loss. It is a frightening thing to face God, because He is all knowing and all powerful. None of our reasons for doing things against His will, will make any sense at that time. We will only hope for mercy, His mercy.

          • 4 votes
          #7.8 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:04 AM EST
          ivanho75

          Cowboy Grandpa - you say

          " By your logic we should just kill all people under the age of understanding of what sin is and there by save them from hell. One problem there would be no one left, because we would all have to die."

          you absolutely nailed it. The main crux of religions are their eschatological underpinnings. This means that all religious people fervently await a day of judgement, an end times. All religions look forward to the end of human life. period. full stop.

          Anyone who believes in an afterlife where a hell exists should be fervently wishing for the end of human life so that no other soul could possibly go to hell.

          Better that not one soul go to hell than this wretched temporal physical burden called "life" continue.

            #7.9 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:42 PM EST
            Levi777

            What I'm looking for isn't the wicked to go to hell, although I must admit, God showing up and proving to the world that we were right has it's certain attractions.

            Ivanho, whatever is going on in your life, you need help. Is there someone you can talk to? And maybe you should take a break from the Vine. It can get us down at times.

            And yeah, whatever lofty justifications, the elevation of self above a helpless another is wickedness. Pro-abortionists (not pro-choice) like to trot out the "I was raped" argument, but that actually accounts for very, very few of abortions. Mostly it's women who are afraid of daddy's anger, or judge themselves too ungrown to care for a baby. Or else they are so cold that they don't want to interrupt their lives with a pregnancy.

            • 3 votes
            #7.10 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:16 PM EST
            ivanho75

            Wow- I need help. Lol. Take your supercillious pomposity and stuff it.

              #7.11 - Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:15 PM EST
              Reply
              Bummer of Oregon

              First of all, can we have all accounts go through a Capcha code?

              Second of all, I am still wondering how many molesters and pedophiles the Church has wrapped under their robes. Maybe if the Pope spent less time trying to shoot Force Lightning ala Emperor Palpatine out of his hands and more time doing what's right, we probably wouldn't have this debacle.

              • 3 votes
              Reply#8 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:54 AM EST
              Little Sure Shot

              Shuffling known pedophile priests around like they were a perverted deck of cards so that could offend again is a big part of the problem. Not cooperating with civilian authorities in prosecution of known offenders is another.

              • 5 votes
              Reply#9 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:12 AM EST
              Dr. Riccardo Privitera

              The Pope should start by repealing the articles of Canon Law of the Council of Elvira 305 AD, Nicaea 325 AD, and Carthage 390AD, and restore the right to marry to all ordained clergy. The concept of celebacy is completely unrealistic and is the prime cause of the sexual abuse that goes on in the Church. Sweeping it under the carpet is no solution and the whole disgusting saga has blown up in the Church's face. Furthermore, they should hand over any of these "holy men" who abuse minors to the proper judicial authorities so that they can be put in a cage where they belong, instead of bending over backwards to protect them.

              • 7 votes
              Reply#10 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:54 AM EST
              Steve-1266803

              " History, not histrionics " ....

              The Catholic Church has known about the pedophilia problem and had it's head in the sand about it for the last thousand years ... so what else is new? It's about time someone told the Pope that the days of the Inquisition are over, that his Church's outdated dogma does not apply to today's world and that we are now in the twenty first century, not some goat herder and sandals society in ancient Jerusalem. The constant stream of BS coming from the Vatican is and should be considerd offensive and insulting to any thinking person.

              Prometheus

              • 4 votes
              Reply#11 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:07 AM EST
              Rich-2229277

              Pope Eggs Benedict is over easy and knows that the cash is available to stifle most but not all. A renewed sense of morality? You have to know it, live by it and practice it first! To guide the faithful who are not sure what to be faithful too because it is not the churches example to follow that is for sure!

              • 4 votes
              Reply#12 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:19 AM EST
              Little Sure Shot

              Pope Eggs Benedict

              Thank you for the giggle.

              • 3 votes
              #12.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:44 PM EST
              Reply
              Mighty Mouth

              The catholic church's most insidious charge is a propensity to 'protect one's own.' By their failure to co-operate with the police authorities, the abuse festers unchecked since the problem is normally despatched to some remote parish - furtive ground for the perpetuation of the offence - The closing of ranks neither ensures nor secures the validation of honesty and integrity within their inner sanctum. In fact it contaminates and universally incriminates them all as 'overt accomplices,' rendering all legally and morally responsible for the crimes of a few.

              • 2 votes
              Reply#13 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:36 AM EST
              asrcfdstfgdDeleted
              samenslow

              The first deadly sin is PRIDE. It is better stated as hubris, a Greek term meaning to take upon oneself those things reserved for God(s). "We ARE the Church. We REPRESENT Christ. We CONTROL the keys to Heaven. We..... , We...."

              The various churches teach that while killing, stealing, lying, etc. are bad. The REAL bad is anything sexual. They are sex obsessed. Maybe the subject makes for titillating sermons.

              Celebacy presents another problem. If someone who believes he/she has sinful sexual desires, they can, with the best intentions, become part of the Church. "I will be celibate, so this will not matter." It don't work.

              • 5 votes
              Reply#15 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:38 AM EST
              Rich-2229277

              Practice what they preach. Do as I say, not as I do!

                #15.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:23 PM EST
                cowboygrandpa

                #10:

                People tend to forget that God gave us sex as a pleasure as well, not just to procreate. The laws He gave us concerning sex were for our own good, as He knows what happen's when does the things He say's not to do. He never forbid a man to marry a woman and take her as his wife, He said that man could only have one wife, and woman one husband-paraphrased-.

                The Catholic church thinks it knows better than God, because it want's to deny it priests what God intended for them. Celibacy should be a choice one makes on their own, not one that is forced upon them by a church.

                Though I think the celibacy has little to do with child molestation, I think it is the perfect way to hide one's predilection for sex with children instead of adults.

                • 2 votes
                #15.2 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:30 AM EST
                Levi777

                samenslow, and cowboygrandpa, these are indeed troublesome days we live in, however, it is by God's power that any can be saved, and it is the height of arrogance to assume that by adhereing to a set of doctrines we can be saved. That's why Micah the prophet said, "He (God) has shown you, O man, what is good. DO justice, LOVE mercy, and WALK humbly with your God." (6:8) Those aren't forms and process and written code. They are attitudes of the heart.

                • 1 vote
                #15.3 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:22 PM EST
                Reply
                Bob-970091

                The only thing the RCC responds to is ca-ching.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#16 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:46 AM EST
                writer21177

                The only entity that can give the Catholic Church a run for its money in terms of Corruption is the US government. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ GREED is GOD

                • 2 votes
                Reply#17 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:58 AM EST
                A.Greenspan

                Pope: Church must reflect on what allowed abuse:

                Unbridled human passion that cannot be controlled by injunctions of a book; allow them sex please.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#18 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:58 AM EST
                maw

                Is that the Death Star floating behind him in that picture?

                • 5 votes
                Reply#19 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:00 AM EST
                writer21177

                I think a lot of closet homosexuals went into the church way back in the day to try and mask their homo sexual feelings hence all the child abuse. Seemed like every gay italian male in the 50's became a priest. That is my theory for what it is worth.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#20 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:01 AM EST
                samenslow

                Gay and pedophile are not the same. You have a point that many gay men became priests because celibacy would prevent them from sinning.

                • 6 votes
                #20.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:04 AM EST
                writer21177

                Sorry bout that I am saying Gay priests resorted to pedophillia because they had no outlet for their homosexual feelings and were extremly conflicted about their feelings and children were easy targets for them because they wouldn't expose them as being gay. I was in no way saying that gay men are all pedophiles, plenty of priests molesting girls as well because they had no outlet for their sexual feelings. Hard to say what you mean in such a short statement.

                • 1 vote
                #20.2 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:09 AM EST
                Mark Fettig

                writer: there are too many, not plenty. No excuse though, as the scenery seems to breed the cult practices.

                • 1 vote
                #20.3 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:32 AM EST
                AnIndividual

                Thanks for clarifying that, writer.

                Heterosexual men are the customers of and more prone to pedophilia than any other group.

                • 1 vote
                #20.4 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:43 AM EST
                writer21177

                I try to make things right as I am often wrong.

                • 1 vote
                #20.5 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:47 AM EST
                iloveyouall

                Heterosexual men are the customers of and more prone to pedophilia than any other group.

                Wrong! Pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality, please don't conflate the two.

                • 3 votes
                #20.6 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:23 PM EST
                Rich-2229277

                Thank you for your "Input" Father writer21177!

                  #20.7 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:29 PM EST
                  Reply
                  EL Marr

                  The false Church, founded (on lies) in the third century, has voraciously indulged itself in the wanton abuse of children, young women and men ever since its dubious inception. So perchance the good Pope and His Church of God can reflect upon, "Why do homo and heterosexual perverts continue (right up to the past minuet) to rape innocent children and young people? These servants of God play the unsanctioned role-by-God( or the Christ) as Priests conducting mass to the flock they plan to molest after mass, or during the next Church picnic when all the children of parishioners show up thinking they are in the presence of God's servants, unfortunately, the actual Slaves of Satan are the lustful demons who show up! To think these supposedly responsible and loving parents would willingly expose their dear children to the likes of sexual predators--just as so-called protectors of their young allowed their offspring to sleep in the home (and very bed) of one Michael Jackson) is testmony to their incompetence as parents. Deny the Holy Roman Catholic Church any more innocent meat to abuse, stay away from the perverts found in-that-Church. God is within you, not in a building. Our Soul was Created In Heaven, not on earth. *Merry Christmas* to our Troops and the world.

                  • 3 votes
                  Reply#21 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:18 AM EST
                  Reply
                  Mark Fettig

                  Ok, the priests are NOT part of mainstream society, andthe Pope is absolutely trying to blame society for the abuses within the Church! It borders blaming the children, who, as far as I can tell by his words, brought these 'evils' with them? Give me a break!

                  I join the many who see this as a bad omen to its BS organizational flaws - add, too, the money laundering - the Vatican is a place to harbor criminals of many backgrounds, and should be considered a criminally backed sect...or CULT - there is no reason anymore to believe it is a holy house any more than Charles Manson's ideology could be considered, 'Godly' - more have suffered within the walls oif this establishment than have under Hitler's reign - too many issues continue - too many are led astray...

                  I hope to see these Sodomising walls behind the Gomoric mindset end within my lifetime.

                  • 3 votes
                  Reply#22 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:29 AM EST
                  jfrank

                  I heard best way for The Vatican to handle this is [1] report all known offenders to the proper authorities. [2] Strip them of their priesthood.

                  • 6 votes
                  Reply#23 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:32 AM EST
                  Max 3PO

                  I agree, they should repent for their sins behind bars. This kind of behavior has been going on in the church for many years. Its hard for me to comprehend how it can be validated and gone unchecked for years through theology. This statement has me doing a Lewis Black what the hell are they talking about. I've read stories how the missionary's treated the indigenous people, it's all sad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGrlWOhtj3g

                  "It was maintained — even within the realm of Catholic theology — that there is no such thing as evil in itself or good in itself. There is only a 'better than' and a 'worse than.' Nothing is good or bad in itself."

                  • 2 votes
                  #23.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:30 PM EST
                  Reply
                  JollyRoger-2803057

                  Dope-a-Pope.

                  • 3 votes
                  Reply#24 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:38 AM EST
                  Rich-2229277

                  Get heavenly clean use Pope on a rope!

                  • 4 votes
                  #24.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:25 PM EST
                  Reply
                  yhyh26Deleted
                  Nick-2183231

                  The hardest thing I have understanding is the level of support governments give to the Vatican. For a country, the Vatican is a country now, that produces no real GDP but is by far one of the riches organizations is insane. Not to mention that they have hid sexual abuse within its ranks, heart-breaking. I believe organized religion is good, but it should have to play by all the same rules as any other organization. If a CEO can't control his or her company, they need to make room for someone who can.

                    Reply#26 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:42 AM EST
                    Rich-2229277

                    There are a lot of things hard in the Vatican and that is what they are reflecting on!

                    • 3 votes
                    #26.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:26 PM EST
                    Nick-2183231

                    Indeed.

                      #26.2 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:38 PM EST
                      Reply
                      boomer 54

                      He said the underlying ideology of such rampant excesses stemmed from the 1970s, when "pedophilia was theorized as something that was in keeping with man and even the child," where nothing was considered good or evil in and of itself but only relative to the circumstances

                      So, we are supposed to believe that Priests raping children was o.k being de rigeur in the 70's, which I think is the most stupid statement, criminal really.

                      I have a connection to a Priest raping abomination in Chicago. Scores of children were affected. Many boys, brothers. The emotional problems these children (now adults) have to live with is mind numbing.

                      I guess the only way to hurt the Vatican is at their money-changing temple. Money talks in Religion.

                      • 6 votes
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                        • 1 vote
                        #28.1 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:31 AM EST
                        Reply
                        lmln32Deleted
                        Bill Pitcher

                        I thought the caption for the photo in this story would be "Pope levitates giant steel ball to the amazement of followers".

                        jus'kiddin'

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#30 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:15 PM EST
                        Nick-2183231

                        Relax guys. Put your feet up. Look at my hands.

                          #30.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:31 PM EST
                          ScottyW1

                          I was thinking the caption should be

                          I am the Eggman, I am the Pontif, goo goo g,joob

                          • 1 vote
                          #30.2 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:31 PM EST
                          Robert Duckworth

                          Scotty, maybe now the Pope will say he is more popular than Jesus Christ.

                          • 1 vote
                          #30.3 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:40 AM EST
                          Reply
                          Angry Left-532262

                          It should do much more than "reflect", and of course he blames secular society for the churches problems...it's infallible. /rollseyes

                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#31 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:29 PM EST
                          Excelsior-2542865

                          The problem with the RCC is the same as the problem with our government.

                          While they may have had good intentions to start with, the leaders quickly become enamored with power over their respective "flocks". After that, it's only about power and their ability to wield it however-the-hell they want.

                          • 4 votes
                          Reply#32 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:57 PM EST
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