Man cited after paying bill with 2,500 pennies

Read more into the story... I dont think the charges stemmed so much from the guy paying in pennies as much as it was the "disorderly" manner in which he presented them to the clerk. A $5 bill is legal tender too, but if I stapled it to your forehead as opposed to simply handing it to you - I'd bet the cops are gonna get involved.

I worked for the NYS Child Support system once upon a time... people love to pay in pennies there, and its not uncommon to have someone literally throw a sack of pennies AT YOU (which can be upwards of 15-20lbs and makes one heck of a mess!) ...from that standpoint, Id be happy to wait while you crawl around like a lunatic looking under the desk to find all your dropped change, I get paid hourly. Better hope you find all of it too, cause after that kind of display - dont expect me to let you slide cause two pennies fell down in the AC vent, you can take the whole thing back to your car, dig a couple more pennies from under the seat and try again once youve learned how to direct your tantrum at the appropriate party!

The guy did not staple the money to the staff. They are only angry because the will have to either count the pennies or pay for the money to be counted at one of those coin counting machines. LOL

If the guy is found guilty, he should pay with the pennies again. LOL

lmao here. Now his 25 dollar bill has reached 140 now. Pennies are legal tender, but you first must either roll them or keep them in a jar. Not dump them all over the counter and the floor. I applaud his actions, but he was wrong in handling it the way he did.

kreepy-krawler

where the heck did you get that bs from? there are no ordinances or laws hat direct how bills must be paid except for legal tender or approved payment methods.

pennies are legal united states tender and can't be legally refused as a method of payment. this will get tossed out of court or i see the aclu getting involved.

Utah code states explicitly that no business may operate in the State of Utah and refuse legal tender.

My guess is that they were refusing the pennies, which is illegal, and when they continued to refuse, he dumped them on their desks.

There's a real problem with companies in Utah refusing legal tender and banks refusing their own checks, and it's because of the idiocy of officers who refuse to take the correct (and legal) side of the issue.

DUSTIN

TITLE 31 > SUBTITLE IV > CHAPTER 51 > SUBCHAPTER I > § 5103
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§ 5103. Legal tender

United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.

There is no CODE that business HAVE TO ACCEPT pennies as payment. There is no federal law that REQUIRES business accept pennies as payment.

Why you seem to blame officers makes no sense. Officers are required by law to issue a citation when a citizen makes a complaint that violates Utah law. So get off the officers back.

An officers LEGAL and correct side of the issue is to determine what this man did that occurred while not in the officers presence and weigh that against the need of the victims in pursuit of justice-- VERY BASIC concept of our AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM.

You know, I'm not in the habit of calling someone's argument idiotic, but...

Your argument is idiotic.

I stated explicitly that the State of Utah Code and Constitution explicitly defines legal tender of the United States as an instrument of trade that is required to be accepted by anyone doing business in the state of Utah.

There are numerous examples in the Uniform Commercial Code that demonstrate an obligation to "sellers" to accept cash (defined as U.S. legal tender) in order to be in compliance with said commercial code. As a matter of fact, the same commercial code requires those doing business in Utah to accept foreign money.

The only instance where a person doing business in Utah is exempted from accepting legal tender is a new law that makes silver and gold coins from the federal government legal tender in the state. This new law was intentionally written to exclude those coins, knowing that in some cases, the business would not have sufficient cash to pay change.

Since Utah state code requires acceptance of legal tender for trade, it is the responsibility of the officer to uphold the law...no matter how ridiculous the situation appears.

Perhaps you should try reading things before you jump off into a psycho tirade, hm?

DUSTIN

aaah so you think you got it all together and organized now, well thats great, but you have interpreted the law wrong.

There is no law that makes / forces how a private business accepts money, the law only establishes what is acceptable as legal tender.

No private business has to accept pennies as payment. I know that is hard to believe BUT THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.

You think you KNOW the officers job, YOU CLEARLY dont and thats because the officer was not present to see the event unfold. If you knew anything about police business, you would know that HE can not issue a citation on his own, because HE IS NOT THE WITNESS.

He took a report and there was a complaint by a staff member or the business its self which was willing to sign a formal misdemeanor complaint under which the officer would state was disorderly conduct, based on the mans ACTIONS of dumping pennies all over the place(which i already cut and pasted the law) if you would know how to read, it would be SECTION B that would be applied.

I like your funny comment about a tirade, its not a tirade i just get a kick out of knowing people chose to be mentally deficient and instead of add a bit of knowledge to the gray matter.

They lie to themselves about knowing something they don't do everyday and act like they do. As i said earlier in posts, this is my area of efficiency, but politics, money topics, business applications, computer topics, and such i am horrible with responses, but surely i wouldn't act like i know what i am talking about to someone who does it everyday.

ugh

aaah so you think you got it all together and organized now, well thats great, but you have interpreted the law wrong.

There is no law that makes / forces how a private business accepts money, the law only establishes what is acceptable as legal tender.

No private business has to accept pennies as payment. I know that is hard to believe BUT THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.

Oh really? Tell me how, oh so smart one.

Here's a hint...start by realizing that states like Utah are allowed to have their own laws.

If you knew anything about police business, you would know that HE can not issue a citation on his own, because HE IS NOT THE WITNESS.

FYI -- My boyfriend is a Salt Lake County Sheriff's Deputy. He issues citations all the time without additional witnesses...they're called traffic tickets.

The officer is allowed to issue a citation without a witness statement...you don't get a free pass if there's no one around to corroborate the officer's statement.

DUSTIN

Well heres what i know, by my reply you assume, i think im better then you, i am not, i just have one area that i am more knowledgeable about.( which to be honest is really the only thing, money issues, political stuff, business concepts all horrible and inept at.)

NOW with that said, you should know that my back and forth with you is not about changing HOW YOU FEEL about the incident but what facts exist that should allow you to absorb and process them so you know a bit more, now to add to the gray matter, then before.

ok to the 1st post. UTAH passed a law only that says what coins can be used for money transactions, thats all it says. The federal law i cut and paste says, that money produced by the us mint must be accepted as legal tender thats what TITLE 31 > SUBTITLE IV > CHAPTER 51 > SUBCHAPTER I > § 5103t says of the us code.

No law exist that forces private business to accept pennies, even in UTAH. Here is exactly what the law says in UTAH.

First Substitute H.B. 317

Representative Brad J. Galvez proposes the following substitute bill:

1

CURRENCY AMENDMENTS

2

2011 GENERAL SESSION

3

STATE OF UTAH

4

Chief Sponsor: Brad J. Galvez

5

Senate Sponsor: Scott K. Jenkins

6
7 LONG TITLE
8 General Description:
9 This bill recognizes gold and silver coins that are issued by the federal government as
10 legal tender in the state and exempts the exchange of the coins from certain types of
11 state tax liability.
12 Highlighted Provisions:
13 This bill:
14 . provides definitions;
15 . recognizes gold and silver coins issued by the federal government to be legal tender
16 in the state;
17 . does not compel a person to tender or accept gold and silver coin;
18 . provides that the exchange of gold and silver coins for another form of legal tender
19 does not create any individual income or sales tax liability;
20 . requires the Revenue and Taxation Interim Committee to:
21 . study the possibility of establishing an alternative form of legal tender;
22 . recommend whether an alternative form of legal tender should be established;
23 and
24 . prepare any recommended legislation for the 2012 General Session; and
25 . enacts an uncodified severability clause.

26 Money Appropriated in this Bill:
27 None
28 Other Special Clauses:
29 None
30 Utah Code Sections Affected:
31 AMENDS:
32 59-10-1002.2, as renumbered and amended by Laws of Utah 2008, Chapter 389
33 ENACTS:
34 59-1-1501, Utah Code Annotated 1953
35 59-1-1502, Utah Code Annotated 1953
36 59-1-1503, Utah Code Annotated 1953
37 59-1-1504, Utah Code Annotated 1953
38 59-10-1025, Utah Code Annotated 1953
39 Uncodified Material Affected:
40 ENACTS UNCODIFIED MATERIAL
41
42 Be it enacted by the Legislature of the state of Utah:
43 Section 1. Section 59-1-1501 is enacted to read:
44

Part 15. Legal Tender Act

45 59-1-1501. Title.
46 This part is known as the "Legal Tender Act."
47 Section 2. Section 59-1-1502 is enacted to read:
48 59-1-1502. Gold and silver coin.
49 (1) Gold and silver coin issued by the federal government is legal tender in the state.
50 (2) A person may not compel any other person to tender or accept gold and silver coin
51 that is issued by the federal government.

.The words that matter are in COMPEL or ACCEPT.

ok moving on to POST #2

Now this is what i also know, that the FYI part you got wrong again. Your boyfriend would say what i would say if he read what you wrote, ok ok

let me go back-- i think i get what your saying but i think you wrote it out wrong, so this is what you might have meant, your boyfriend issues citations with a witness --they are called traffic citations, ---

this is what he knows and i know, that you need to know(meant as in learn not to poke fun at you)

when you boyfriend issues a traffic citations, he is either present thus he is a witness(speeding he uses a radar gun) traffic light(he was at the intersection) p.c. stop violation, which is tinted windows, no headlight working, and so on.

your boyfriend also can issues traffic citations after a investagaiton where he was not present but a witness comes forward or upon arrive at an accident scene FACTS point him to the most likely person to have created the accident he wasnt there for.

Your boyfriend also knows that citations are misdemeanor in nature and thus any thing above that would be via complaint for crimes that are gross misdemeanor or felony which is normal done by p.c. warrant or p.c. pickup.

NOW on to the 2nd sentance in post #2. The officer cant issue a citation with out a witness that provides the facts that make this man the most likely to have committed the crime of disorderly conduct.

YOUR BOYFRIEND KNOWS THIS TOO, but based on your sentence -- you seem to think this is the right scenario--

Your boyfriend just happens to be walking down the street and needs to get a drink he walks into this place and sees pennies all over the counter and floor. When he asks the staff, nobody saw what happened. When he asked did anyone SEE who put the pennies everywhere, nobody said they saw anyone. When he asked do you have video cameras, the staff says no. when he asked did anyone just help someone at the counter that was upset, and the staff says no.

then who does the boyfriend give a citation too. NOBODY........but thats not how it works,

Your boyfriend needs a witness and thats how it works.

So your boyfriends was called to THIS scene and when he walks in to the lobby area of the business he noticed pennies everywhere. Your boyfriend would look at the people at the counter and ask "who called" that person then steps up.

You boyfriend , would then ask a few questions, like who was the guy, was he upset, do you think he meant to do this, was anyone hurt, was anyone upset by this action, did the man try to compromise, is this man a customer, do you have his information, is this an ongoing dispute, has this happened before, how long ago did this occur and so on.

After that your boyfriend would say I am willing to write a report and charge him with disorderly conduct

Utah Code - 76-9-102 — Disorderly conduct.

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76-9-102. Disorderly conduct.
(1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:
(a) he refuses to comply with the lawful order of the police to move from a public place, or knowingly creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition, by any act which serves no legitimate purpose; or
(b) intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
(i) engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
(ii) makes unreasonable noises in a public place;
(iii) makes unreasonable noises in a private place which can be heard in a public place; or
(iv) obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic.
(2) "Public place," for the purpose of this section, means any place to which the public or a substantial group of the public has access and includes but is not limited to streets, highways, and the common areas of schools, hospitals, apartment houses, office buildings, transport facilities, and shops.

Section B is what your boyfriend would use after putting the staff members names into his report as witnesses and then forwarding it to the local prosecutor.

In some places like here in MN, we have to write the report and submit to the prosecutors office FIRST and then they respond and tell us to write the citation.

Again, law enforcement action is pretty much the same across the country, So your boyfriend may say or explain it based on UTAH's criminal code, but the FACTS dont change.

And i have a funny feeling if you did ask him about this situation using the facts of this story, he would say the same thing to you-- and AGAIN that doesn't mean i am right and your wrong or i win this BACK AND FORTH -- it does allow you to know a bit more now then when you started and that makes you a wiser girl friend,

and us officers love educated strong women!!

First off, I already mentioned the gold and silver code and made it clear that it offers exemption from legal tender requirements. Are you even paying attention?

Well heres what i know, by my reply you assume, i think im better then you, i am not, i just have one area that i am more knowledgeable about.( which to be honest is really the only thing, money issues, political stuff, business concepts all horrible and inept at.)

That's assuming a lot, and far too much I'm sorry to say.

NOW with that said, you should know that my back and forth with you is not about changing HOW YOU FEEL about the incident but what facts exist that should allow you to absorb and process them so you know a bit more, now to add to the gray matter, then before.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I referenced how I feel. Are you clairvoyant?

No law exist that forces private business to accept pennies, even in UTAH. Here is exactly what the law says in UTAH.

Be prepared to @!$%# yourself here...there IS a law...a number of them all strewn about in the Uniform Commercial Code:

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE70A/htm/70A02_030400.htm

This section of the code allows me, the buyer, to provide other forms of payment including real estate, but demands that all debts be payable by "money" which is defined in the Utah Code and Constitution as the legal tender of the United States.

Now this is what i also know, that the FYI part you got wrong again. Your boyfriend would say what i would say if he read what you wrote, ok ok

He's been reading your comments since the beginning wondering what makes you think you're somehow an expert. Your assumption that you know what he's saying or thinking is pathetic at best.

i think i get what your saying but i think you wrote it out wrong, so this is what you might have meant, your boyfriend issues citations with a witness --they are called traffic citations, ---

Utah citations are written without witness. There is a signature line that you are asked to sign, but are by no means compelled to do so. Utah officers aren't even required to be present in the court (though absence is frowned upon) if the defendant contests a citation. Again, you're WAY out of your element.

this is what he knows and i know, that you need to know(meant as in learn not to poke fun at you)

You know nothing of Utah laws, yet you seem to think you do. The officer is not a witness. Utah peace officers are considered qualified representatives of the state. The Utah Judicial Code does not require witnesses in order to enforce any part of the Utah Code, it merely requires evidence...hence the fact that officers do not sign witness statements. We do not place this kind of liability on our public servants for good reason.

your boyfriend also can issues traffic citations after a investagaiton where he was not present but a witness comes forward or upon arrive at an accident scene FACTS point him to the most likely person to have created the accident he wasnt there for.

Again, Utah Judicial code does not demand witness. This is the reason why Utah is one of the few places left where the courts are willing to hear traffic cases where only evidence from automated photographic equipment is the only material provided. There are no witnesses in "traffic cam" cases, merely evidence.

Your boyfriend also knows that citations are misdemeanor in nature and thus any thing above that would be via complaint for crimes that are gross misdemeanor or felony which is normal done by p.c. warrant or p.c. pickup.

...which has what to do with this argument??

NOW on to the 2nd sentance in post #2. The officer cant issue a citation with out a witness that provides the facts that make this man the most likely to have committed the crime of disorderly conduct.

Yes he can. Like I said...you can't get away with breaking the law if there are no witnesses present. Witness statements are not required under Utah code (or any state code I'm aware of) for successful conviction of an offense.

Your boyfriend needs a witness and thats how it works.

No it's not. He could arrest a suspect upon admission of guilt, or reasonable suspicion that he is the one who committed the offense. Utah law is fraught with examples of how peace officers may make arrests based upon suspicion that someone committed an offense. It's the same in many other states.

You boyfriend , would then ask a few questions, like who was the guy, was he upset, do you think he meant to do this, was anyone hurt, was anyone upset by this action, did the man try to compromise, is this man a customer, do you have his information, is this an ongoing dispute, has this happened before, how long ago did this occur and so on.

1. He wouldn't ask if the man meant to do this, he's not a member of the Judiciary.
2. He wouldn't ask if anyone was upset by this, he would take the complaint as offered and avoid counseling a witness. The courts exist to ask these questions, not officers.
3. He wouldn't ask if the man tried to compromise...again, he's only an officer.

You're not a police officer if you're going to try and tell me you'd ask questions that obviously counsels witnesses.

Section B is what your boyfriend would use after putting the staff members names into his report as witnesses and then forwarding it to the local prosecutor.

Yes he would, but he'd only include witnesses if they were available.

Again, law enforcement action is pretty much the same across the country, So your boyfriend may say or explain it based on UTAH's criminal code, but the FACTS dont change.

No it isn't, not even close. The certification processes are different, the definition of "Peace Officer" is completely different from state to state, and the "Peace Officer Authority" is governed by the rules of the Judiciary of that state.

And i have a funny feeling if you did ask him about this situation using the facts of this story, he would say the same thing to you-- and AGAIN that doesn't mean i am right and your wrong or i win this BACK AND FORTH -- it does allow you to know a bit more now then when you started and that makes you a wiser girl friend,

Have asked, he's answered, you're wrong. Yes this guy likely created a nuisance, but he also paid in legal tender and the officer failed to refer this violation to the appropriate authority for citation (the officer can cite the staff based upon which city).

So when are you going to admit that merely being an officer in another state does not make you a global expert?

DUSTIN

its clear that a tit for tat pissing match is what you prefer, thats to bad.

As far as your feelings,i have used the wrong word that appears to have been a sticking point for you. SO lets change that word to disagreement.

As far as your boyfriend, i guess that was AGAIN to much to let examples be examples and i assumed that the GENERAL KNOWLEDGE base we both have of the criminal justice system and basic law enforcement action, was just to much.

And for what ever reason, i didnt seem to write well enough to make it clear to both of you so were try to edit it down and clear some things up which seem to allow this back and forth.

So let me try to type this more clear so that less assumption occurs.

in this post, the man is receiving a citation because a WITNESS(staff members) stated to an officer that was called to the scene that a person threw pennies on the floor. The officer was not present, but can see the pennies, so with a CITIZENS ARREST statement or form(not sure what utah requires ooh my), the officer accepts the form based on STATUE B, and makes his report that states the person ID'ed most likely to have committed the crime of DISORDERLY CONDUCT was the man. I did assume to much about what questions could be asked because i thought you would take it merely as an example and not as HOW you boyfriend would conduct himself. But I do know that he and any other officer would ask the right amount of questions to make sure they ESTABLISH in their report what elements based on the actions of this man a crime.

The officer was not present so he needs a witness to make it a crime based on the elements of the utah disorderly conduct statute. He also can note that based on his observations of the scene he was called to that this man should be seen in court for this event.

In this post there is nothing to suggest that the pennies wouldn't be accepted if presented respectfully for payment. But there is NO LAW in Utah or the other 49 states that requires the company to TAKE the pennies for payment. They can take visa and no cash, they can take checks and no visa, they can take checks and no cash. If i made you think, i was fussing about pennies not being valid as a form of payment, that was not my intention.

In making the above clearler in some parts. ALL states have a CRIMINAL CODE or STATUES that resemble each other, what makes disorderly conduct crime in UTAH, will be RELATIVE in MN but the ELEMENTS may be different. I assumed to much that would be understood or acknowledged.

Then we moved onto your boyfriend -- and his traffic citations-- which of course is different then a complaint citation which is what occurred in this post.

The officer or your boyfriend knows that his signature makes him a witness to the traffic offense he listed. In your state and even in MN you don't have to sign a traffic citation on the road side. But in some states you do. The specifics of what compels your boyfriend to issue a citation may be different vs when he cant issue a citation in lew of arrest and booking.

And you would be correct, i DONT KNOW the specifics of which policy or law violation requires that he has to book someone vs giving them a citation but I do know that HE KNOWS most states have the same reason for booking because law enforcement is all (key word)RELATIVE.

An example might be A canceled/suspended drivers license in MN you will get booked into jail for it, in UTAH they may also. Your boyfriend knows when his cant issue a citation but has to book someone into jail.

yes i don't know specifically what those misdemeanor violations are but the ELEMENTS of why your boyfriend books someone into jail may be the same elements for MN too. No different then the reason your boyfriend can issue a citation and not book someone into jail and those elements maybe the same but the words used may be different in MN.

You would be correct, I assumed to much when if i suggested that UTAH and every state HAVE THE SAME requirements to be a peace officer OOPS i hope you can get over that.

I guess in my assumption you would have accepted that maybe i don't know the SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS but that they aren't to far off from MN or the other 48 states. You go on about what it takes to be a police officer in UTAH vs MN but again, my response is to say its relative, in MN as i ASSUMED in Utah your boyfriend has a police license which is maintained at the state level such as we do. What it takes to be a police officer in UTAH i specifically dont know, but can do believe it is relative to MN or Utah and other states have SIMILAR requirements.

lastly, YOU AND I DON'T know at what point the POLICE issued the citation. I explained what it takes for that type of misdemeanor citation to be issued here in MN. Some times a police who repond to the scene can write or sometimes that officer must submit a report reviewed by the day time DUTY OFFICER who advised the reporting officer to issue one, sometimes it goes to the chief and he advises the officer to issue one and sometimes it goes to the city or county attorneys office and they advise the reporting officer to write the ticket, but again in UTAH and in MN that process is the same but how its handled is different.

But it clearly states that "LATER THE POLICE ISSUED A CITATION" to assume it was not handle correctly as your last sentence suggest is not correct.

Let me make this clear...

You need to find something else to do with your time.

You come on here, spout off on tangents that nobody has brought up (including a number of things you seem to think I said), and spiral into random patterns of insanely boring thought. And when you are proven wrong, you have a fit like a little baby.

In this post there is nothing to suggest that the pennies wouldn't be accepted if presented respectfully for payment. But there is NO LAW in Utah or the other 49 states that requires the company to TAKE the pennies for payment.

FYI -- yes there is...and I showed you before:

Be prepared to @!$%# yourself here...there IS a law...a number of them all strewn about in the Uniform Commercial Code:

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE70A/htm/70A02_030400.htm

I'm not responding to any more of your psycho tirades. Go troll somewhere else.

DUSTIN

this is what your link says, and NO WHERE in your link does it MANDATE OR OBLIGATE a private business to take pennies as payment-- the key word you missed or choose to ignore is OR OTHERWISE--

which means if the company only takes visa then thats it, if it only takes cashiers checks or money orders then thats it, if it only takes online payments then thats it.

I put in bold the part just in case you thought i was pulling your leg on YOUR LINK

--(1) The price can be made payable in money or otherwise. If it is payable in whole or in part in goods each party is a seller of the goods which he is to transfer.
(2) Even though all or part of the price is payable in an interest in realty the transfer of the goods and the seller's obligations with reference to them are subject to this chapter, but not the transfer of the interest in realty or the transferor's obligations in connection therewith.

And i really feel bad for you if you think i think the man was given a citation for trying pay with pennies, i know he wasn't given a citation for trying to pay with pennies he was given a citation for throwing the pennies every where in the lobby. Plus nobody stated that he couldn't pay with pennies and his hissy fit is what got him a ticket.

I really cant help that YOU decided to include your boyfriend and traffic citation comments on a post that had nothing to do with traffic.

And i surely cant help you out with understanding that the criminal justice system is all relative. Just in case thats not clear enough for you -- that means that disorderly conduct here in MN is going to be almost like the same statutes written in utah for disorderly conduct.

And yes you are a great waste of time, i am at work and i see women and men like you every day, that never want to add information to their gray matter but do enjoy being fussy and enjoy drama just because they can and not because they have too.

And i would think you would be a bit more respectful being a law officers girl because how you act is how he is judged.

Please read the article properly, not the way it suits you. It wasn't the pennies that caused the problem, it was the throwing them all over the place then telling the people to count it themselves. If you dropped some coins on the floor whilst paying at a convenience store, would you tell the cashier to find them and count them?

Exactly. If they had been rolled and presented, no problem. He threw them about. That was disorderly conduct.

Actually Rahlly - a lot of establishments won't accept rolled coins because it's too easy to dummy them. I've even had a bank tell me they wouldn't accept my rolled coins and they made me stand there and unroll them all.

I have 3 ozarka water containers filled with pennies. I'm hoping to use them as a down payment on my next truck lol

Bring it in and I'll count it out.

And they would have, if he had presented them properly rather than...

Campbell says the incident upset staff because pennies were strewn about the counter and floor, and West's action served "no legitimate purpose."

The disorderly conduct charge is for tossing the money around the room and being belligerent about telling them to count it.

Great valid points there. Kind of one of those 'just because you can does not mean you should' cases. Can you imagine if everyone went around making payments with pennies? I know people who get impatient when someone starts to write a check in line at the grocery store.

That's true.

yes the pennies are legal tender. But businesses are allowed to refuse to roll them for the customer. And he's getting in trouble for making a mess with pennies, not for paying with pennies.

Ok ruthlessmoose "businesses are allowed to refuse to roll them for the customer."
And I as the customer refuse to roll them for the business unless they plan to pay for those as well. It shouldn't matter if I brought in 25 $1 bills or 2,500 pennies, it all adds up to the correct amount owed.

CRASH

thats not the point, the point is can you with all your pennies respectfully put them on the counter in a reasonable manner, rolled or unrolled, if you can, then the clerk should count it.

if you cant then they shouldn't count it and advise you that your conduct is not allowed and refuse you service. And if its private property then expectations rather then the law can be used to refuse you service regardless.

I've actually worked at a place where we would NOT take coins if they were rolled. This stemmed from receiving a roll of "dimes" that only contained two dimes. They were on the end so if you looked, it appeared to be a complete roll of dimes, but actually the rest were pennies.

Did I say anything about throwing them down on the counter? My point is whether it is in the dollar form or coin form it shouldn't matter how it is paid, as long as it is paid. If they refuse payment then that is their problem and I will continue to dispute the bill. They can take me to court for a disputed bill that I attempted to pay but they refused. I have no problem turning one of my savings accounts of $80,000 into 8,000,000 pennies. Pennies that can be used to pay bills.

And I as the customer refuse to roll them for the business unless they plan to pay for those as well

can you with all your pennies respectfully put them on the counter in a reasonable manner, rolled or unrolled, if you can, then the clerk should count it.

Actually.... it is NOT the responsibility of the store to count your unrolled coin, nor is it to pay for your paper coin rolls (which you can get for free at the bank).
Some businesses will accept rolled coin , but they don't ahve to accept unrolled coin. It only creates more work for them. Their view is "If you are going to the trouble to ahve THAT much coin... YOU can go to the trouble of rolling it."
It's just a business decision.... it's no different than businesses refusing to accept any bills larger than a $20. Or not accepting money that is too dirty or gross and (God forbid) bloody. (I've had people try that before) It's their choice to accept or not accept certain forms of payment.

a roll of "dimes" that only contained two dimes. They were on the end so if you looked, it appeared to be a complete roll of dimes, but actually the rest were pennies.

This is why a lot of businesses still won't accept rolled coins. It's a risk of loss. banks will only accept coins if you're a customer, besides the fact that they are FDIC insured... your local business is not.

My point is whether it is in the dollar form or coin form it shouldn't matter how it is paid, as long as it is paid. If they refuse payment then that is their problem

The point is... businesses are allowed to refuse payment if it doesn't meet their requirements. If they don't accept coin... and you try to pay in coin, you still owe that money. I can't go into starbucks, try to pay with a $100 bill... then when they don't accept it, just walk out with my coffee cuz I "tried to pay".

We also had a lady sneeze into a handful of bills right in front of us and then hand them over for payment. My boss made her lay them out on the counter and then he went got the Lysol and sprayed the sh*t out of them. People are nasty.

You're on point about everything you said.

As stubborn as I am if they do not have a sign stating that they do not accept that form of payment then it's their problem, not mine.
Similar to businesses not accepting bills over $20, they have a sign stating it. No sign, not the customers problem. Yes I'm stubborn. Do I care? NO

went got the Lysol and sprayed the sh*t out of them

We used to do that when I worked at a bank branch. It amazed me the level of flith people had attached to their money.

As stubborn as I am if they do not have a sign stating that they do not accept that form of payment then it's their problem, not mine

That is, in fact, not the case.
That is a problem with too many people having entitlement issues. basically "I can do whatever I want unless someone tell me otherwise".
People need to ahve a little common sense.
Also.... this dude did this as a deliberate attempt to be a dickhole. which would be enough for me to refuse business to someone if I was an owner.

Similar to businesses not accepting bills over $20, they have a sign stating it. No sign, not the customers problem

I would invite you to attempt to leave a business with a product without paying because they wouldn't take your $100 (without a sign) and see how well that works out for ya LOL

leave a business with a product without paying

I'm not interested in staying in a 1 room cell with bars and the ac cranked down in the 40s, thank you very much. I'm no thief.
If the business does not have change then I will not buy from them. But hey! I have pennies!! (: Everyone can be happy!

this dude did this as a deliberate attempt to be a dickhole

Assistant Vernal Police Chief Keith Campbell says that after asking staff members whether they accepted cash, West dumped 2,500 pennies on the counter and demanded that staff count them.

I personally don't think he was being a dickhole because the coins over flowith the counter or that he demanded the staff count them. I would want them to count them as well, don't want anyone coming back saying the amount was short 50 cents or so when I know it's all there.

But any smart person would seperate the older pennies with the newer ones. Melt down the older ones and sell the copper within them. You'll make more than the penny is actually worth.

I enjoyed our bickering ruthlessmoose.

If the business does not have change then I will not buy from them

You're missing the point I think.
You're saying the business is not allowed to refuse your $100 bill if there's no sign. What would you do then?

Similar to businesses not accepting bills over $20, they have a sign stating it. No sign, not the customers problem

What are you saying the customer can do at this point then?

I personally don't think he was being a dickhole because the coins over flowith the counter or that he demanded the staff count them.

He dumped thousands of pennies on the counter and they spilled all over the floor... then DEMANDED they do someothing that's not their responsibility. Anyone who doesn't think that's a dick move is either lying or is themselves a dick and would probably do the same thing.

But any smart person would seperate the older pennies with the newer ones. Melt down the older ones and sell the copper within them

If by "smart" you mean person willing to commit a federal offense.... then yes.

You're saying the business is not allowed to refuse your $100 bill

No you said that. I was originally talking about pennies.

What are you saying the customer can do at this point then?

If the situation arises make change elsewhere.

He dumped thousands of pennies on the counter and they spilled all over the floor

Actually he dumped 2,500 pennies on the counter. I'm sure some went on the floor but not all, all over the floor. You would make a good journalist, you're very dramatic.

DEMANDED they do someothing that's not their responsibility.

Actually it is their responsibility to make sure all the money is there. What if he was short $5, who's pocket would it come out of after the employee marked paid in full? The guys attitude may have sucked but sometimes that's the crap you go through in customer service.

would probably do the same thing.

I would do it to you just to see you freak out, get it on video and post you on youtube.

If by "smart" you mean person willing to commit a federal offense

To feed my family. To ensure I can afford an education for my family. To clothe my family. To have a roof over my families head. Yes.

Times are hard and jobs becoming more scarce. I do what I can to provide for my family and to make sure all our dreams come true.

I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'm not taking any sides here, but Crash, it sounds to me like you're okay with people breaking the law if they can't afford clothing, housing, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The code governing this issue is as follows:

Title 18 United States Code, Section 331

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States;

or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened -

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

If you do not have fraudulent intent when you deface a penny, then you are not in violation of the law. I was recently in Philadelphia where I visited the Liberty Bell and Constitution Hall. In the gift center was a machine that would take a penny and flatten it out in the shape of the Liberty Bell or other design for a fee. That being said, I think that melting pennies is not illegal so long as you are not trying to make your own money.

I am after the copper and what I wish to do with it after the fact is my own business. No more secrets for yall.

No you said that. I was originally talking about pennies

Yes, and then I added the comparison of the $100 bill issue which you responded to.... then now backed out of completely instead of answering the question.

If the situation arises make change elsewhere

exactly.... in other words.... be refused.

Actually he dumped 2,500 pennies on the counter

like i said... thousands. ThousandS is more than 1,000.... I believe that 2,500 is more than 1,000.

I'm sure some went on the floor but not all, all over the floor

I didn't say the ALL went onto the floor...... I said they went all over the floor. There is in fact a difference between those two if you actually read it. It wasn't dramatic at all... just requires the reader to read for comprehension.

Actually it is their responsibility to make sure all the money is there

it is NOT their responsibility to roll 2,500 of his loose pennies. Which is a fact you simply wish to deny.

I would do it to you just to see you freak out

I'm assuming you're imagining some fantasy in which I'm working at some business and you do this same thing and assume I'd freak out.
When in fact I would calmly tell you that I'm not responsible for rolling your coin, and that I don't have to take it un rolled, and you are more than welcome to collect your money that you can reach without going behind the counter since that is certainly not allowed. Sorry for the loss you may incur... I didn't tell you to dump thousands of pennies on the counter to make a statement. guess you would have shown me, huh?

To feed my family. To ensure I can afford an education for my family. To clothe my family. To have a roof over my families head. Yes. Times are hard and jobs becoming more scarce. I do what I can to provide for my family and to make sure all our dreams come true.

Oh come off it! If the amount of money you have is so few pennies that you can't even feed your family, I guarentee melting them and selling the copper is not going to be the "jackpot" you require.

And seriously... I've heard about enough of the big bad economy monster coming and ruining everyone's lives.

besides... if the government wants to put you away for commiting the federal offense of defacing federal property.... they're not going to just let you go because you want to make your families dreams come true lol

Liberty Bell and Constitution Hall. In the gift center was a machine that would take a penny and flatten it out in the shape of the Liberty Bell or other design for a fee

That's the government itself authorizing it. Of course they can do whatever they want with the money they made.

That being said, I think that melting pennies is not illegal so long as you are not trying to make your own money

If it's not a use the federal goverment has authorized.... then it is UNauthorized aka Fraudulent. Still not allowed, sorry.

Besides.... pennies aren't even MOSTLY copper. the core is a different metal that's cheaper. Good luck on that business venture.

Crash, it sounds to me like you're okay with people breaking the law if they can't afford clothing, housing, etc

Oh my...... that would be naughty.

Moose - did you forget to use the sarcasm font??

It seemed to me that Crash was advocating doing whatever you had to do and by any means available (even if that meant stealing) to make sure he had what he needed.

That is naughty. And illegal.

Ok twinkle toes you're way over your head, it's time you come down from cloud 9. Here it is simple:

Paying with 2,500 pennies is legal currancy. Was there a sign stating that bills could not be paid in cash and/or change? If they accept cash, they accept cash and/or change. If no then he is at liberty to use cash or change to pay. If there was a sign stating no cash accepted then yes he would be sol. The last time I took an ozarka water bottle into the bank filled with pennies they didn't ask me to have it all pretty and rolled for them. They used their method of counting to empty the 73lb water bottle. No problems, everyone happy.

your bank is by far the exception, not the rule.

If I could I would throw pennies at you right now... >:)

Then you would be losing some money.

1944-1981 a penny contained about 95% copper
1982-present a penny contains about 2.5% copper

181 pennies = 1lb

Copper is around $4.00 lb right now

Taking my pennies into the bank, I had around $130 in that 73 lb jug. If that jug were to be filled with pennies 1981 and older I could have gotten around $290 for the copper alone with in the pennies.

A penny is worth 1 cent but costs the US Mint 1.79 cents to make because of the costs of the penny's materials and production. Go figure.

Crashtest

The funny thing is, after reading all your post, that even a 1981 penny would get you and this goof ball a citation if you two both used it to do the same thing.

based on your replies you appear to act like your not wired right or you choose to be a difficult person and karma might have to teach you a lesson if you are/act in reality as you type in your replies.

do you need a cut and paste of a state statue on disorderly conduct law. shessh

Mind explaining how we would both get a citation?

CRASH

I wrote that "if you two both used it to do the same thing".

so again, i really cant believe you missed that but the guy did what he did, and if you did the same thing you both would get a misdemeanor citation for disorderly conduct.

Dumping pennies all over the place interferes, with business, and if a staff member agreed that the man could have presented the pennies in a more mature way, he would have not have received a citation or charge, which was brought by the employees since the officer was not present thus a citizens arrest form was signed.

Did I say anything about dumping pennies everywhere? I'm talking about paying with pennies. This guys attitude could have been better and who knows, if it was there may not have been a problem. But I don't see a reason why someone couldn't pay their bills with pennies, it's money and all adds up the same.

The point just refuses to be understood.

The point just refuses to be understood.

It's a 2 way street buddy.

whatever you gotta tell yourself

we all get the point you're making, no attempt at the other way is happening though.

No need to get your panties in a wad grumpymoose. You gotta weigh out both sides of the story before you take sides.

if only you practiced what you preach

crashtest,

for some odd reason, you want to CHANGE the facts of this incidnet, and if you havent noticed,

OTHER PEOPLE have noted that the facts cant be changed to fit YOUR MENTAL DEFICIENCY to understand them.

Now with that said, i am not trying to act -think-portray-put down- or be critical - of how you FEEL about this mans actions.

but the reality is his ACTIONS based on the basic criminal justice system of this country does not ALLOW -an illegal action(pouring pennies all over the place) that makes a reasonable citizen believe it doesn't interferes with the normal operations of a business.

can the man be mad, yes, can the man be pissed off, yes, can the man blog on a website how awful customer service is, yes he can.

just in case you need to see the law -- the one he was issued the citation under would fall under letter "B". if you take you feelings out of it and you look at his CHOICE of action then maybe you would see there is ONLY ONE SIDE to this. ugh

2010 Utah Code
Title 76 - Utah Criminal Code
Chapter 09 - Offenses Against Public Order and Decency
76-9-102 - Disorderly conduct.

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76-9-102. Disorderly conduct.
(1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:
(a) he refuses to comply with the lawful order of the police to move from a public place, or knowingly creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition, by any act which serves no legitimate purpose; or
(b) intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
(i) engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
(ii) makes unreasonable noises in a public place;
(iii) makes unreasonable noises in a private place which can be heard in a public place; or
(iv) obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic.

Where does it say that paying with pennies is disordely conduct?
I don't really care about his attitude, I care about the method of payment.
Read my posts a little better and you will see that is what I am mainly talking about.

CRASH

and thats wonderful that you DON'T CARE HOW he acts, which is a bit silly in most peoples opinion after they read the article and found out that IT HAD nothing to do with the business not ACCEPTING pennies.

it had to do only with the mans ability to not act like a grown up and reasonably have a dispute where he used pennies as payments and properly put them on the counter for payment.

The man did not and chose to be a immature and create a scene in a private business which interfered with its operations of dealing with other customers and also made staff worry or be concerned about his state of mind after INTENTIONALLY dumping pennies everywhere.

Again most people like myself, can understand the frustration and the pennies is a nice way to protest in using them for the staff to count as long as he would have done it nicely and then verbally told them how annoyed he was.

sometimes you have to hold people accountable for there actions and his actions spoke louder then his words and his point will cost him more pennies in the end.

Why wouldn't it be considered legal tender?

CHAOS-

i really hope your not serious, about the above, did you even read the story or is this just a reason to stand for your name.

Any body with common sense that read the story understand that the guy can use payment in pennies but he cant do it, in a way that disrupts the operation of the business or make people feel un safe on how he display them.

i know i shouldn't take your post serious but curiosity makes me wonder....

What he isn't realizing is that if he had just put a sack of pennies on the counter and not all the money had been there, he would still be responsible for whatever amount was missing. It really was a dick move. It was just really stupid to do what he did. I think maybe he'd watched Confessions of a Shopaholic one too many times.