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Pope won't take part in common prayers

Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:19 AM EDT
world-news, eu, peace, vatican, pope-benedict-xvi, cold-war, dalai-lama, meeting, pope-john-paul-ii
Nicole Winfield, Associated Press
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showing 1 of 5 photos
<p>Pope Benedict XVI delivers his blessing upon arrival in the Pope Paul VI hall at the Vatican at a pre-trip prayer service for the Catholic faithful, Wednesday, Oct. 26, 2011. The pontiff has invited Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims to a pilgrimage to the Umbrian hilltop town of Assisi, central Italy, where 25 years ago Pope John Paul II, the Dalai Lama and others spent the day praying for peace amid the Cold War. (AP Photo/Andrew Medichini)</p>

Pope Benedict XVI delivers his blessing upon arrival in the Pope Paul VI hall at the Vatican at a pre-trip prayer service for the Catholic faithful, Wednesday, Oct. 26, 2011. The pontiff has invited Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims to a pilgrimage to the Umbrian hilltop town of Assisi, central Italy, where 25 years ago Pope John Paul II, the Dalai Lama and others spent the day praying for peace amid the Cold War. (AP Photo/Andrew Medichini)

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— Pope Benedict XVI has invited Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims to a pilgrimage at the Umbrian hilltop town of Assisi, but the leaders won't take part in common prayers as they did when summoned for a daylong prayer for peace by Pope John Paul II 25 years ago.

Instead, Benedict held a pre-trip prayer service for Catholics at the Vatican on Wednesday, since Thursday's Assisi event — unlike the 1986 edition — will only feature time for individual prayer and reflection.

Then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger didn't attend the 1986 event and disapproved of members of different faiths praying in the presence of one another. As a result, the 25th anniversary edition won't involve any communal prayer: The estimated 300 participants will be given time to pray silently in individual rooms assigned to each one after lunch.

Cardinal Peter Kodwo Appiah Turkson, who helped organize Thursday's event as head of the Vatican's justice and peace office, said the "real" prayer for peace commemorating John Paul's 1986 meeting was Wednesday's vigil service inside the Vatican.

"The emphasis is on pilgrimage rather than on praying together," Turkson told reporters last week.

Twenty-five years ago, John Paul's declaration of a global day of peace was radical amid the era's Cold War tensions: War was raging in Lebanon and on the Iran-Iraq border, Contra guerrillas were fighting Nicaragua's leftist government and IRA bombs were going off in Northern Ireland. A U.S-Russia nuclear arms control summit had just ended in a stalemate.

Nevertheless, John Paul rallied the Dalai Lama, Mother Teresa, Japanese Shinto priests, fire-worshipping Zoroastrians, peace-pipe-smoking Native Americans and the chief rabbi of Rome to come to Assisi. He made clear they weren't praying together but were rather being together to pray — a distinction designed to rule out any whiff of syncretism, or the combining of different beliefs and practices.

The distinction, however, was lost on many in the Vatican and among conservative and traditionalist Catholics who criticized the 1986 event and subsequent Assisi interfaith prayer meetings as implying that all religions were somehow equal.

In 2000, when he was head of the Vatican's doctrine office, Ratzinger issued a controversial document in part as a response to the 1986 Assisi meeting, stressing that the fullness of the means of salvation was found in the Catholic Church alone.

Now Benedict is presiding over his first Assisi interreligious gathering, and the decision to eliminate any common prayer is seen as his way of further correcting the wrongs of the 1986 event. Wednesday's vigil prayer service — held inside the Vatican and designed for Catholics — drove the point home.

"As Christians, we want to ask God for the gift of peace, we want to ask that he gives us instruments of peace in a world still lacerated by hatred, divisions, egoisms and war," Benedict said.

He said he hoped Thursday's Assisi meeting would encourage dialogue among people of different faiths and would "bring a ray of light to illuminate the hearts and minds of all men so that rancor is replaced by forgiveness, division by reconciliation, hatred by love, violence by moderation — and that peace reigns in the world."

Benedict will welcome the various delegations at the Vatican on Thursday morning and they will travel by papal train to Assisi, the town known for the peace-loving message of its native son St. Francis.

There will be remarks and a shared light lunch, followed by the time for individual reflection and prayer. The delegates will walk together in a pilgrimage for a bit before coming together for concluding remarks and the train ride back to Rome.

The guest list includes the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I and representatives from Greek, Russian, Serbian and Belarusian Orthodox churches. Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams is coming for the Anglican church, and representatives from Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist and other Christian denominations are on the list as well.

Several rabbis will be joined by some 60 Muslims, a similar number of Buddhists, three Taoists, a half-dozen Hindus, three Jains and a Zoroastrian. Also invited for the first time are four intellectuals who profess no faith at all — part of Benedict's efforts to reach out to atheists.

© 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (114)
Everett WallaceDeleted
Canadian Dave

What crappola! Will they "infect" each other as they're praying to the SAME God?

    Reply#2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:34 AM EDT
    anon-837192

    I believe this is good news, indeed, and necessary to avoid giving scandal. It is a difficult task to steer a ship through a storm, and I pray that Pope Benedict XVI is able to keep the Church on the right path during these times.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#3 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:44 AM EDT
    Levi777

    anon, it is impossible for the Pope to keep the Catholic church on the right path since it's been on the wrong one from the beginning. But the call is to those who would love life, and seek eternal glory..."Come out from their midst, my beloved, and touch not the unclean thing." But will they? Will you?

      #3.1 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:14 AM EDT
      anon-837192

      Will I what? I don't know what you mean.

        #3.2 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:34 AM EDT
        Diego Hidalgo

        Catholic bashing huh?

        • 1 vote
        #3.3 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:53 AM EDT
        Levi777

        Diego, I do not bash Catholics. I understand the heart connection that Catholics have to their beloved church. Yet they hold to that institution in ignorance and deception. Isn't it clear from their handling of the revealed incidences of sexual molestation by priests? I cannot imagine that the people of the Catholic church consider sexual molestation and abuse to be a non-issue, a small thing, but what are they to do when the Pope is the "voice of God on earth" and he is silent? The college of Cardinals come out with outrageous statements blaming everyone but failing to take responsibility for their crimes and exonerating the priests who did such heinous deeds! If you are a Catholic, Diego, what do you do with these things? If the Catholic church is your God, then you have no choice but to be blind to this wickedness. But will you seek God apart from Catholicism?

          #3.4 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:01 PM EDT
          anon-837192

          Levi,

          Your comments regarding sexual molestation (besides showing your ignorance) only confirm the imperfect nature of humans, not the imperfection of the Church. Even the pope is capable of sin, and is undoubtedly a bigger target for the devil because of his high rank in the Church.

          If the Catholic church is your God

          The people/leaders of the Catholic faith is not the same as the Church. The Pope, cardinals, and priests are not my God. Only God is my God, and the Church is His perfect bride.

          But will you seek God apart from Catholicism?

          Will I partake in heresies and cults, which is what any religion outside of the Catholic faith is? No way.

          • 1 vote
          #3.5 - Tue Nov 1, 2011 9:05 AM EDT
          Diego Hidalgo

          he people/leaders of the Catholic faith is not the same as the Church. The Pope, cardinals, and priests are not my God. Only God is my God, and the Church is His perfect bride.

          Great point.

          • 1 vote
          #3.6 - Tue Nov 1, 2011 5:39 PM EDT
          rescue dogs62

          anon,

          Will I partake in heresies and cults, which is what any religion outside of the Catholic faith is? No way.

          Are you joking?....you mean you couldn't go into a Baptist church, or an independent evangelical church and not find any other Christians believers.? Do you really believe that ?

          • 1 vote
          #3.7 - Tue Nov 1, 2011 10:36 PM EDT
          anon-837192

          Are you joking?....you mean you couldn't go into a Baptist church, or an independent evangelical church and not find any other Christians believers.? Do you really believe that ?

          I believe that I will find other Christians, but I do not believe that they have the True Faith

          • 1 vote
          #3.8 - Wed Nov 2, 2011 8:33 AM EDT
          Reply
          Mal'achi

          "Pope Benedict XVI has invited Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims to a pilgrimage at the Umbrian hilltop town of Assisi, but the leaders won't take part in common prayers…" It appears that Pope Benedict XVI's perception of divinity hasn't changed. To this day he still doesn't realize that there is but ONE GOD and that COMMUNAL PRAYER is the only answer to PEACE.

          • 1 vote
          #4 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:49 AM EDT
          anon-837192

          The God that Catholics pray to is not the same god that the Muslims, Hindus, and Jews pray to.

            #4.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:52 AM EDT
            Andrew-1162039

            He's just as imaginary though.

            Also invited for the first time are four intellectuals who profess no faith at all — part of Benedict's efforts to reach out to atheists.

            Why would atheists want to play nice with this guy. He's publicly tried to blame secularists for the Catholics pedophile problem, with the rise in Catholic divorce rates, he's stated Hitler was an atheist. Atheists and secularists are his go to straw-men for explaining all the wrongs in the world while trying to avoid taking any responsibility for the mistakes of his church. I want to hyperbolicly call him the worst pope ever, but the corrupt history of the papacy is so terrible that's not even close to being true.

            • 2 votes
            #4.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:16 AM EDT
            Bill 1977

            Actually, Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe that man is the son of Abraham, and are all "Abrahamic" religions that follow essentially the same God.

            I'm very disappointed in this. I think expressing our faith together, even if they are different, is a HUGE step towards a mutual understanding and eventually, peace. We should also invite people with no religious beliefs to take part, if they choose.

            • 6 votes
            #4.3 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:20 AM EDT
            anon-837192

            Actually, Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe that man is the son of Abraham, and are all "Abrahamic" religions that follow essentially the same God.

            No, you are wrong. Catholics pray to God that is three persons in one: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Any variation of this is absolutely NOT the same God. Jews and Muslims do not pray to the Divine Trinity that is God. These religions are mutually exclusive and cannot be blended together as Abrahamic religions.

              #4.4 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:30 AM EDT
              Andrew-1162039

              These religions are mutually exclusive and cannot be blended together as Abrahamic religions.

              When you break it down to describe that God as the God of Abraham you eliminate those exclusions. If you're all praying to the same God Abraham prayed to, regardless of whether that deity later knocked up a little Jewish girl or whispered sweet nothings in Mohammed's ear, it's clearly based on the same deity. Far more similarities in these silly stories than differences. The infighting between the Abrahamic faiths is as silly as the Muslim wars between Sunnis and Shiites.

              • 5 votes
              #4.5 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:35 AM EDT
              anon-837192

              If you're all praying to the same God Abraham prayed to

              We ceased praying to the same God when Jesus died on the Cross and the Jews failed to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God. Muslims do not acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God as well. We are not praying to the same god. There may be similarities, but the differences are polarizing.

              • 1 vote
              #4.6 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:38 AM EDT
              Bill 1977

              You're not praying to Jesus, you're praying to God. Jesus is the SON OF GOD. The ABRAHAMIC God. The Holy Trinity is a concept exclusive to Christians, but God (God the Father) is still the same.

              Do your research:

              http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/themes/religion/index.html

              • 5 votes
              #4.7 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:01 AM EDT
              anon-837192

              You're not praying to Jesus, you're praying to God. Jesus is the SON OF GOD. The Holy Trinity is a concept exclusive to Christians, but God (God the Father) is still the same.

              There is no difference between Jesus and God. Jesus is God. When Catholics pray to God the Father, they are at the same time praying to God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. One cannot divorce God the Father from God the Son, which is what the Jews and Muslims do. This is precisely why Catholics and other religions are not praying to the same god. They may be praying to 1/3 of the God of the Catholics, but as they only acknowledge part of God, it is not the same God.

              Thanks for the link, but it reveals nothing new to me.

              • 1 vote
              #4.8 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:11 AM EDT
              Andrew-1162039

              One cannot divorce God the Father from God the Son, which is what the Jews and Muslims do.

              Plenty of Protestant Christian churches do the same thing and view the Catholic take on the trinity rather silly and incorrect based on their readings of the same teachings.

              • 2 votes
              #4.9 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:17 AM EDT
              anon-837192

              Plenty of Protestant Christian churches do the same thing and view the Catholic take on the trinity rather silly and incorrect based on their readings of the same teachings.

              Very true. My comments regarding praying with Jews and Muslims carry over to Protestant religions as well.

                #4.10 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:19 AM EDT
                Bill 1977

                So then you see that our mutual God is the same God, then? If you read the link, it explains this. I will not argue this point, you either choose to accept it or you don't. Too much violence has already been committed because people can't agree on religion.

                • 3 votes
                #4.11 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:25 AM EDT
                anon-837192

                Bill, I'm sorry but you are wrong.

                So then you see that our mutual God is the same God, then?

                Catholics do not share a "mutual God" with other religions. Your link does nothing to explain this. I accept that Catholics are descendants of Jews, and Islam pulls from both religions, but it is not the case that Jews, Muslims, and Catholics worship the same God any longer.

                It is not a matter of opinion or acceptance, but Jews, Muslims, Protestants, and all other religions do not worship the same god as Catholics. Any religion that does not accept the Holy Trinity cannot possibly worship the same God as Catholics. Why do you insist that this to the contrary?

                  #4.12 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:34 AM EDT
                  Bill 1977

                  Many Christians also believe in God, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, right? All 3 are one, and one is all 3.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

                  I don't insist on anything. The writings are out there, you choose to believe what you want to believe.

                  • 3 votes
                  #4.13 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:43 AM EDT
                  anon-837192

                  If you were arguing that some other Christian religions, those that believe in the Holy Trinity, worship the same God, you might have a leg to stand on. Jews and Muslims? No way.

                    #4.14 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:57 AM EDT
                    Bill 1977

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

                      #4.15 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:04 AM EDT
                      anon-837192

                      Bill,

                      What is the point of your link?...I know what Abrahamic religions are. Even this wikipedia article confirms my point when it says:

                      However, Christianity's Trinitarian doctrine conflicts with Jewish and Muslim concepts of monotheism.

                      and

                      Since the conception of divine Triunity is not amenable to tawhid, the Islamic doctrine of monotheism, Islam considers Christianity to be variously polytheistic or idolatrous.

                      I don't mean to be snide, but if you have an argument, make it, because your links are only showing that you know how to use google.

                      • 1 vote
                      #4.16 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:20 AM EDT
                      Bill 1977

                      "Abrahamic religions are the monotheistic faiths emphasizing and tracing their common origin to Abraham[1] or recognizing a spiritual tradition identified with him"

                      The God of Abraham is the common theme. The Holy Trinity is one being, one God. The God of Abraham.

                      We'll have to agree to disagree, then.

                      Back on topic. We will never reach a mutual understanding when we can't view each other as equals.

                      • 4 votes
                      #4.17 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:41 AM EDT
                      anon-837192

                      The God of Abraham is the common theme. The Holy Trinity is one being, one God. The God of Abraham

                      No, the Holy Trinity is three beings, one God. That's what makes the God of Catholics different from the God of the Jews and Muslims, and many other Christian religions as well.

                      Back on topic. We will never reach a mutual understanding when we can't view each other as equals.

                      I don't care as much for reaching understanding as I do for reaching the truth.

                      • 3 votes
                      #4.18 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:52 AM EDT
                      anon-837192

                      Only 1/3 of the God of Catholics is the God of Abraham. (maybe 2/3...I don't know how the Jews viewed the Holy Ghost before Jesus)

                      • 1 vote
                      #4.19 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:57 AM EDT
                      Bill 1977

                      There's the difference. Many Christians believe the Holy Trinity is one being. Jesus was the embodiment of God on Earth. The Holy Spirit is the power of God. Your belief is no more valid or true than mine, or that of anyone else. But to you, it is your truth. How many wars have been fought because we can't accept this?

                      We must reach mutual understanding because the "truths" we follow are not always the same. That's essentially telling Jews and Muslims they're following a lie.

                      • 3 votes
                      #4.20 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:06 PM EDT
                      DaBroad-780258

                      The concept of the Trinity, like many of the dogmas of the Church, was adapted from the predecessor religions, the pagan religions. When the Church encountered a pagan faith, she abosorbed what she could and crushed what was left. The Egyptians had a trinity God - Amun, Ra, Ptah. The Hebrews had one God - no "holy ghost" whatsoever.

                      The words of Pope Gregory the Great:

                      You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity.

                      -Laing, Gordon Jennings. Survivals of Roman Religion. New York: Cooper Square Publishers. 1963.

                      • 2 votes
                      #4.21 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:21 PM EDT
                      anon-837192

                      Many Christians believe the Holy Trinity is one being.

                      But we're talking about the Pope here, who is Catholic. We're not talking about what "many religions" believe.

                      That's essentially telling Jews and Muslims they're following a lie.

                      Yes, they are, and that is what the Pope should be telling them.

                      • 1 vote
                      #4.22 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:06 PM EDT
                      Bill 1977

                      Well, one thing is clear to me now......

                      • 2 votes
                      #4.23 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:14 PM EDT
                      anon-837192

                      go ahead...I'm listening...

                        #4.24 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:34 PM EDT
                        rescue dogs62

                        .

                        • 1 vote
                        #4.25 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:50 AM EDT
                        Mal'achi

                        rescue dogs62

                        EXCELLENT!

                        • 1 vote
                        #4.26 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:26 PM EDT
                        anon-837192

                        I don't get it

                          #4.27 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:35 PM EDT
                          rescue dogs62

                          Mal'achi and anon

                          If you speaking about 4.25. I was trying to edit, so I deleted everything to start over and it posted with nothing.

                            #4.28 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:22 PM EDT
                            anon-837192

                            Don't you sometimes wish you could just delete a comment?

                            • 2 votes
                            #4.29 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:25 PM EDT
                            Mal'achi

                            anon-837192

                            I see a period remaining in the comment field; so I thought you were being facetious.

                            And yes, sometimes I wish there was a way to delete a comment.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.30 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:35 PM EDT
                            rescue dogs62

                            Yes, but once you've started posting, it won't let it post without something being on there, so at least you have to put a period. But I do agree, the period landed in a really funny place.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.31 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:00 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            philipe

                            What a horse@!$%# misleading headline!

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#5 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:49 AM EDT
                            Keithsn

                            Really? But the pope won't take part in common prayers as the previous pope did. Seems accurate to me.

                            • 1 vote
                            #5.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:46 AM EDT
                            philipe

                            — Pope Benedict XVI has invited Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims to a pilgrimage at the Umbrian hilltop town of Assisi, but the leaders won't take part in common prayers...

                            He (John Paul II) made clear they weren't praying together but were rather being together to pray — a distinction designed to rule out any whiff of syncretism, or the combining of different beliefs and practices.

                            • 2 votes
                            #5.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:19 AM EDT
                            Keithsn

                            I did read it.

                            Just like the quotes you pasted, the pope won't take part in common prayers, which the pope did do 25 years ago.

                            Am I missing something?


                            • 1 vote
                            #5.3 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:27 AM EDT
                            philipe

                            What you are missing is that there is no so called common prayer for any of the religious leaders.

                            • 1 vote
                            #5.4 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:42 AM EDT
                            Keithsn

                            Okay, but they did have a common prayer 25 years ago right? And now they are not, so the pope is not taking part, and furthermore to not taking part, he is not having it at all. Correct?

                            • 1 vote
                            #5.5 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:50 AM EDT
                            philipe

                            Yes, they had so called common prayer a quarter of a century ago but they are not having it now.

                            How can one not take part (or for that matter take part) in an event that is not scheduled to happen?

                            As I originally said, the headline is misleading.

                            • 1 vote
                            #5.6 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:14 PM EDT
                            Keithsn

                            OKay, now I get it, sorry, wasn't deliberately trying to be obtuse, haha.

                            However, it would sound like the headline is misleading becaseu it does not state the full extent to which the pope is discriminating against other religions or his opinions of them. Namely that instead of just not participating in somehting he is outright doing away with it.

                            • 1 vote
                            #5.7 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:06 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            GuitKitty

                            The distinction, however, was lost on many in the Vatican and among conservative and traditionalist Catholics who criticized the 1986 event and subsequent Assisi interfaith prayer meetings as implying that all religions were somehow equal.

                            "Yes, let's all pray together for world peace, but, uh, not together together. Separately together. For world peace. Yes. Because my god is better than your god."

                            • 6 votes
                            Reply#6 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:58 AM EDT
                            bearass

                            That was choice, GuitKitty! :)

                            • 1 vote
                            #6.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:26 AM EDT
                            GuitKitty

                            Thanks, bearass. :)

                            • 1 vote
                            #6.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:50 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            bearass

                            Hmmm, praying for more wealth and "devotion", Mr. Pope? Sell all the untold billions in Vatcan real estate and "things", then give it away to those whom are in need. Isn't that the way Mr. Jesus would have wanted it? Here's to the leaders of hypocrisy and the most enormous cult following ever!

                            • 2 votes
                            Reply#7 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:24 AM EDT
                            DaBroad-780258

                            You do know, of course, that he is leading the church backwards, to the times when the goal was to convert the whole world. Bring the noble savages out of their ignorance and into the church, whether they like it or not. This is why there are so many turning away from the Catholic church. Sure, it appeals to a segment who would like to see Latin Mass brought back, roll back the clock to pre-Vatican II. It's mostly a backlash against the "radical Muslim" campaigns of "convert or die". I hope there's enough members of all faith communities who are rational enough to counter these my-way-or-the-highway-to-hell types.

                            • 2 votes
                            Reply#8 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:43 AM EDT
                            anon-837192

                            You do know, of course, that he is leading the church backwards, to the times when the goal was to convert the whole world.

                            I would consider this a step forward.

                            Sure, it appeals to a segment who would like to see Latin Mass brought back, roll back the clock to pre-Vatican II.

                            Guilty.

                              Reply#9 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:45 AM EDT
                              Keithsn

                              Hardly a step forward when you move back to segregation.

                              • 1 vote
                              #9.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:50 AM EDT
                              BLOGER-486140

                              Yes you see them at church, 80% are over 60. Once again proof the people at the top are clueless and arrogant.

                                #9.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:43 PM EDT
                                anon-837192

                                Yes you see them at church, 80% are over 60.

                                Perhaps you should come to my church...it's full of young, large families. Lots of kids, lots of teenagers, lots in their 20s and 30s. Plus, the traditional seminaries are literally overflowing with young men. I think your perception might be a bit off.

                                  #9.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:05 AM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  BLOGER-486140

                                  This and the last pope pretty much destroyed everything accomplishedin Vatican 2. They have spit in the face on John the 23. Now they are trying of foist sainthood on one of them. What have the really accomplished, 90% if Catholic ignore them and the religion faces increasing irrelevancy.

                                    Reply#10 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:46 AM EDT
                                    anon-837192

                                    I'm curious what you see as accomplishments of Vatican II?

                                      #10.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:50 AM EDT
                                      BLOGER-486140

                                      The mass in the language of the people instead of an obscure dead language. More openness. An attempt to heal the several schisms that have separated Christians. An attempt to bring to church from the 16 to the 20 century. A repudiation of anti semitism. Greater work toward social justice until the polish pope squash the movement. You obviously have an issue with these goals.

                                      What have benedict ans john paul acomplished, the church is a dying shell of its fromer self. Widescale defections in Ireland, Spain, Italy, the United States.

                                        #10.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:35 PM EDT
                                        anon-837192

                                        You obviously have an issue with these goals.

                                        Yes, I do have issues with some of these goals, but even if the goals of Vatican II were noble (they were not) the fruits of Vatican II have been nothing short of rotten. As you say:

                                        the church is a dying shell of its fromer self.

                                          #10.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:42 AM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          Pablo-123

                                          If there really is a god. He is in a perpetual state of face palming watching our childish species behave the way it does.

                                          "My god story is better than your god story, nanny nanny boo boo"

                                          • 4 votes
                                          Reply#11 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:05 AM EDT
                                          Rygar

                                          Or he just gave up and moved on to creating life on other planets.

                                            #11.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:31 AM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            Wandered

                                            In other news, the DC & Marvel factions bickered at Comiccon.

                                            • 4 votes
                                            Reply#12 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:05 AM EDT
                                            TexMan

                                            The present Catholic leaders are too busy trying to figure out new and improved ways of covering up and discounting sexual child abuse.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            Reply#13 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:10 AM EDT
                                            WeAllHaveOpinions

                                            "Ratzinger issued a controversial document in part as a response to the 1986 Assisi meeting, stressing that the fullness of the means of salvation was found in the Catholic Church alone."

                                            I used to have respect for the Pope up until the point I read this. I am a member of the Anglican community one of the closest to the Roman Catholic churches there is, but the Pope has the audacity to say be cause I am not a member of his church (by Catholic Church alone I figure he is speaking of the Roman Catholics) my chances of salvation is down the drain... "BOLOGNA".

                                              Reply#14 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:19 AM EDT
                                              anon-837192

                                              This has always been the position of the Catholic Church. Why are you only now taking offense?

                                                #14.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:20 AM EDT
                                                DaBroad-780258

                                                I've taken offense for years, ever since I was old enough to research the origins and history of the Catholic Church. I have also read the bible, including refering to direct translations of tricky words and phrases, taking them in context of time and place they were written. I have also read the sacred texts of many other faiths, in the same manner. The deeper I look, the more I see that faith and religion are very different things. Faith is personal; religion is about politics, power and control. I asked too many questions to remain with the Catholic Church, and that was after both a high school and college education in a conservative Catholic vein. Sure, you can question, but you'd better be ready to accept the official answer at truth without any further question.

                                                Sorry, God gave me a brain, and the ability to use it. I do not need to accept blindly what the scholars in Rome decree, because I can read and research on my own, and open my heart to what God tells me. No longer are the majority of people ignorant and uneducated, that they must accept what their "betters"tell them is the truth, what God supposedly says and wants. Remember, the pope is elected by a panel of men who receive lifetime appointments. Very few men rise to Cardinal without a great deal of political maneuvering and favor giving. At parish level, the Church is a very different animal than the level in Rome.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #14.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:26 AM EDT
                                                Diego Hidalgo

                                                "Ratzinger issued a controversial document in part as a response to the 1986 Assisi meeting, stressing that the fullness of the means of salvation was found in the Catholic Church alone."

                                                Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

                                                It's been around for a bit, (Saint Cyprian of Carthage, 3rd century).

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #14.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:20 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                Miss Reed

                                                What a person chooses to believe in their heart about God is personal, the second I try to explain it or tell someone else what to believe is when I believe Ive failed in my understanding of what or who it is....but thats just MY opinion and no one else has to be accountable for it but me, and lastly Pablo-123 I LOVE your view :)

                                                  Reply#15 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:21 AM EDT
                                                  nb2wsDeleted
                                                  yedswDeleted
                                                  rescue dogs62

                                                  Anon,

                                                  We ceased praying to the same God when Jesus died on the Cross and the Jews failed to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God.

                                                  You are incorrect. The Jews prayed to Jehovah God, who promised the Messiah. Christians believe that the Messiah came in the person of Jesus Christ, God in flesh who dwelt among up, and the Holy Spirit the third person of the Trinity. The Jews were God's chosen people who were awaiting their Messiah, and believers (the Gentiles) were brought in as a branch.

                                                  But never delude yourself that there is a different God for the Jews and for the Christians., it is the same God. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He doesn't change. They do not recognize the Trinity but it is the same God, unless you want to separate yourself from God's chosen people. I don't.

                                                  Islam comes from the branch of Abraham, who worshipped God. There is only one God. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, He does not change. The differences are how we have access or fellowship with God.

                                                  As Christians we believe that we have access through Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and God made flesh who is the Jewish Messiah. The Jews are still awaiting the Messiah.

                                                  Christians believe and the Bible says that we all are sinners, and fall short of the glory of the Lord.

                                                  Because God, being perfect, He cannot fellowship with sin, so the only way we can be accepted and have fellowship with God is through shedding of blood. The Bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. We can not pay the price for our own sins. The Jews of the Old Testament offered the lamb without spot or blemish at the Temple in Jerusalem as sacrifice to cover their sins, but that is no longer available to them.

                                                  God said, I love you so much that I will come and pay the price for you, the blood of Jesus Christ Who was shed for the sins of the world. Jesus the Perfect Lamb without spot or blemish.

                                                  So Christ went to the Cross, and being perfect, died in our place, and paid the price for our sins, because He loved us so much.

                                                  For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

                                                  There is only one God. Whether people actually have forgiveness for our sins, eternal salvation, access, fellowship, with Almighty God is the thing that separates us.

                                                    Reply#18 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:45 PM EDT
                                                    anon-837192

                                                    I appreciate your thoughtful comment, rescue dogs.

                                                    God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He doesn't change.

                                                    I cannot argue your facts, but I would say that it is our understanding of God that has changed. He revealed Himself as a Triune God when He sent Jesus to become man. The early Jews did not have this understanding of God, and do not accept it now. Nor do the Muslims, nor some Christians.

                                                    It is of course true that God has not changed, but the God that the Jews, who deny the Triune God, pray to is no longer the same God that Catholics pray to because our understanding of who we are praying to has changed. In the same way, the God of Mohammed is not the God of the Catholics.

                                                      #18.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:59 AM EDT
                                                      anon-837192

                                                      I thought of a simple, trivial, analogy. We both say "I like chocolate chip cookies." Great....then we agree on this. Then I say "I only like chocolate chip cookies with nuts and chocolate chunks," to which you reply "No, I only like chocolate chip cookies without the chocolate chips and without nuts." So while we agree that we both love chocolate chip cookies, there can be no question that we are not talking about the same cookie. There are few similarities between what you call a chocolate chip cookie and what I call a chocolate chip cookie, besides the name. The substance is not the same between the two. In the same way (is this too much of a stretch?), the God that Jews believe in is not the same God that Catholics believe in.

                                                      At any rate, I am having one of our priests over for dinner tonight. I will ask him about this, and if he says I am wrong then I am sure to be wrong and I will admit it.

                                                        #18.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:30 AM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        gedswDeleted
                                                        gmdewDeleted
                                                        Robot7456

                                                        I am a catholic person in faith of Jesus Christ always and forever . My faith lets me deal with this divisiveness , (as presented in this article and postings) , in this manner: " He that negates Jesus Christ to be The One and only Son of God has nothing of The Son and nothing of The Father . He shall be condemned ,(i.e. faces condemnation ) , bears the burden of his sins, ( is not pardoned as we that accept Jesus Christ to Be Our Lord and Savior) , and has no life, ( worthless without any merit or value as such) . " Jesus said : " All those that come unto Me , seeking , ( with sincerity) , Salvation , I shall bring them Salvation "... The Word of The Lord...

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        Reply#21 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:40 AM EDT
                                                        rescue dogs62

                                                        Robot,

                                                        If you are Catholic do you pray to Mary and the other saints.?

                                                          Reply#22 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:55 PM EDT
                                                          anon-837192

                                                          Catholics pray to Mary and the other saints as intercessors to our Lord.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #22.1 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:07 PM EDT
                                                          Reply
                                                          Robot7456

                                                          Rescue dogs62: As a matter of fact I do , and in Spanish . Thank The Lord ...

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          Reply#23 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:26 PM EDT
                                                          Robot7456

                                                          I recite The Rosary in veneration of The Virgin Mary ; and San Francisco de Asis is my Patron Saint. Pope Benedict XVI has made a point to pray for peace for all people in the entire world , and I think that is what we , as Christians , should all pray for also !

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #23.1 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:41 PM EDT
                                                          Reply
                                                          rescue dogs62

                                                          The Bible says that there is only ONE intercessor between God and man and that is Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

                                                            Reply#24 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:49 PM EDT
                                                            anon-837192

                                                            From fisheaters.com:

                                                            OK, so why pray to saints? We pray to saints to ask them to pray for us, in the same way you might pray for me if I ask and I would pray for you if you ask. Christians are called to pray for each other: James 5:16 "Pray one for another... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #24.1 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:58 PM EDT
                                                            Reply
                                                            rescue dogs62

                                                            Anon,

                                                            You don't pray to me though, you can ask me to pray for you. We can pray directly to our Father, and Christ makes intercession for us. Praying to anything other than God is idolatry.

                                                              Reply#25 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:25 PM EDT
                                                              anon-837192

                                                              You don't pray to me though, you can ask me to pray for you.

                                                              Praying to anything other than God is idolatry.

                                                              Praying to Mary or the saints is not idolatry, for we are not worshiping them but asking them for prayers. If I ask you for prayers, is this idolatrous? When St.Paul asks for prayers so many times in his letters, is this idolatrous? No, of course not. In the same way we can ask the saints to pray for us. Again:

                                                              We pray to saints to ask them to pray for us

                                                              We are not asking the saints or Mary for any Graces, which come through God alone, but we ask them through prayer (how else can we communicate with the saints?) to pray for our intentions.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #25.1 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:33 PM EDT
                                                              Reply
                                                              rescue dogs62

                                                              Why do you communicate with who you call saints, whe we have direct access to God. It's like going talking to one of our Representatives if we would go directly to the White House and President Obama is always willing and able to listen to you. Christians have access to the throne of God, and Christ is our intercessor, why by pass that privilege.?

                                                              Yes, I may ask other believers to pray for me, but I do so because they also have direct access to our Father through Jesus Christ.

                                                                Reply#26 - Tue Nov 1, 2011 10:45 PM EDT
                                                                anon-837192

                                                                Why do you communicate with who you call saints, whe we have direct access to God.

                                                                That's a fair questions, and there are many reasons why one would pray to the saints in addition to praying directly to God (not instead of). There is a pretty good article on catholic.com entitled "Praying to the Saints" that I would recommend.

                                                                My answer is simply that the prayers of Mary and the saints carry more weight than prayers coming from me, a worthless sinner. To continue your analogy, whose petitions carries more weight with the president, yours or the vice president's? Wouldn't it be just as effective (indeed, more so!) to ask the vice president to present your petition to the president? In the same way, asking Mary and the saints to act as an intercessor for your prayers is invaluable. I cannot imagine anything greater than having Mary petition to our Lord for me!

                                                                If you would ask others here on earth (likely sinners and, as a result, separated from God) to pray for you, I can't imagine why would you not ask Mary and the saints, who are as close to God as possible, to present your petition to the Lord

                                                                  #26.1 - Wed Nov 2, 2011 9:02 AM EDT
                                                                  Reply
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