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AP IMPACT: EPA rules threaten older power plants

Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:50 AM EST
politics, us, associated-press, coal, retirements, plant-retirements
Dina Cappiello, Associated Press
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 2 photos
<p>FILE - In this Dec. 14, 2011 file photo, Republican presidential candidate, former Massachusetts Gov.  Mitt Romney is interviewed on the Fox News program "America's Newsroom", in New York. For the intertwined U.S. economy and presidential politics, it was a year of twists and unexpected turns. The wobbly economy framed the agenda for both parties, and how it performs in the coming months will help decide whether President Barack Obama wins a second term. (AP Photo/Mark Lennihan, File)</p>

FILE - In this Dec. 14, 2011 file photo, Republican presidential candidate, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney is interviewed on the Fox News program "America's Newsroom", in New York. For the intertwined U.S. economy and presidential politics, it was a year of twists and unexpected turns. The wobbly economy framed the agenda for both parties, and how it performs in the coming months will help decide whether President Barack Obama wins a second term. (AP Photo/Mark Lennihan, File)

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WASHINGTON — More than 32 mostly coal-fired power plants in a dozen states will be forced to shut down and an additional 36 might have to close because of new federal air pollution regulations, according to an Associated Press survey.

Together, those plants — some of the oldest and dirtiest in the country — produce enough electricity for more than 22 million households, the AP survey found. But their demise probably won't cause homes to go dark.

The fallout will be most acute for the towns where power plant smokestacks long have cast a shadow. Tax revenues and jobs will be lost, and investments in new power plants and pollution controls probably will raise electric bills.

The survey, based on interviews with 55 power plant operators and on the Environmental Protection Agency's own prediction of power plant retirements, rebuts claims by critics of the regulations and some electric power producers.

They have predicted the EPA rules will kill coal as a power source and force blackouts, basing their argument on estimates from energy analysts, congressional offices, government regulators, unions and interest groups. Many of those studies inflate the number of plants retiring by counting those shutting down for reasons other than the two EPA rules.

The AP surveyed electricity-generating companies about what they plan to do and the effects on power supply and jobs. It was the first survey of its kind.

The estimate also was based in part on EPA computer models that predict which fossil-fuel generating units are likely to be retired early to comply with the rules, and which were likely to be retired anyway.

The agency has estimated that 14.7 gigawatts, enough power for more than 11 million households, will be retired from the power grid in the 2014-15 period when the two new rules take effect.

The first rule curbs air pollution in states downwind from dirty power plants. The second, expected to be announced Monday, would set the first standards for mercury and other toxic pollutants from power plant smokestacks.

Combined, the rules could do away with more than 8 percent of the coal-fired generation nationwide, the AP found. The average age of the plants that could be sacrificed is 51 years.

These plants have been allowed to run for decades without modern pollution controls because it was thought that they were on the verge of being shuttered by the utilities that own them. But that didn't happen.

Other rules in the works, dealing with cooling water intakes at power plants and coal ash disposal, could cause the retirement of additional generating plants. Those rules weren't included in the AP survey.

While the new rule heralds an incremental shift away from coal as a power source, it's unlikely to break coal's grip as the dominant domestic electricity source. Most of the lost power generation will be replaced, and the coal-fired plants that remain will have to be cleaner.

"In the industry we retire units. That is part of our business," said John Moura, manager of reliability assessment at the North American Electric Reliability Corp. NERC represents the nation's electrical grid operators, whose job is to weigh the effect a proposed retirement will have on reliability.

With so many retirements expected, that process could get rushed. "We are getting a little hammered here, because we see multiple requests," Moura said.

NERC, along with some power plant operators, is pressing the Obama administration to give companies more time to comply with the rules to avoid too many plants shutting down at once.

In addition to anticipated retirements, about 500 or more units will need to be idled temporarily in the next few years to install pollution controls. Some of those units are at critical junctions on the grid and are essential to restarting the electrical network in case of a blackout, or making sure voltage doesn't drain completely from electrical lines, like a hose that's lost its water pressure.

"We can't say there isn't going be an issue. We know there will be some challenges," Moura said. "But we don't think the lights are going to turn off because of this issue."

That hasn't stopped some critics from sounding alarms.

Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., said in a letter to the White House this month that the EPA mercury rule could "unintentionally jeopardize the reliability of our electric grid." At a speech in New Hampshire in November, GOP presidential candidate and former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman predicted summer blackouts. A recent U.S. Chamber of Commerce ad said a single EPA regulation "could threaten America's energy supply."

Particularly at the older, less efficient plants most at risk, coal already was at a disadvantage because of low natural gas prices, demand from China and elsewhere that was driving up coal's price, and weaker demand for electricity.

For many plant operators, the new regulations were the final blow. For others, the rules will speed retirements already planned to comply with state laws or to settle earlier enforcement cases with the EPA. In the AP's survey, not a single plant operator said the EPA rules were solely to blame for a closure, although some said it left them with no other choice.

"The EPA regulation became a game changer and a deal changer for some of these units," said Ryan Stensland, a spokesman for Alliant Energy, which has three units in Iowa and one in Minnesota that will be retired, and four in Iowa that are at risk of shutting down, depending on how the final rules look. "Absent the EPA regulations, I don't think we would be seeing the transition that we are seeing today. It became a situation where EPA broke the back of coal."

Some believe the change is long overdue. The two rules will cut toxic mercury emissions from power plants by 90 percent, smog-forming nitrogen oxide pollution by half, and soot-forming sulfur dioxide by more than 70 percent.

"Many of them are super old. They've either got to be brought up to code, fixed with the best available technology, or close them down," said Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., who heads the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. "You can't keep on going."

The impact is greatest in the Midwest and in the coal belt — Kentucky, West Virginia and Virginia — where dozens of units probably will be retired.

Coal "is the fuel that is local to this area," said Leonard Hopkins, the fuel and compliance manager for the Southern Illinois Power Cooperative, which serves rural electric customers in 25 counties in the state. "We are scrambling to find ways to comply."

His options: switch to a lower sulfur coal, install additional pollution controls or retire the oldest boiler and buy cheaper power from elsewhere.

For many of the country's oldest coal-fired plants, retirement is the cheapest option.

"It is more expensive to retrofit these plants than retire them and build new generation," said Chris Whelan, spokeswoman for Kentucky Utilities, which announced in September that it was retiring three coal-fired power plants in the state. The plants, which came on line in 1947, 1962 and 1950, employ 204 people.

Whelan said the company is "going to do everything we can to reallocate the work" by shifting employees to a new gas-fired power plant.

In some places, a job at the power plant is the best thing going.

Thirty people work at the Central Electric Power Cooperative plant in Chamois, Mo., where EPA regulations have put the plant in danger of shutting down. Some employees are looking to see if there are other power plants where they could find work.

"We always knew there was a chance we could get shut down," said Robert Skaggs, who has worked at the 50-year-old power plant for 10 years and is also an alderman in the town of 400. "It's pretty obvious. Our plant is an old plant."

Chamois Mayor Jim Wright saw the sewing factory leave and doesn't understand why coal has to do the same.

"Coal's coal. If you are going to dig and ship it to China, you might as well burn it here," he said.

Electricity bills are also a concern.

Kentucky Utilities expects its customers to see as much as a 14 percent rate increase to make up for the $800 million it is spending to replace what will be retired, and the $1.1 billion it plans to spend on anti-pollution upgrades. Other power companies have applied to recoup the cost of retrofits or of building new gas-fired power plants. The EPA estimates that industry will spend $11 billion complying with the two rules by 2016.

For others, the biggest issue with plant retirements is the loss of property taxes. As plants wind down and close, their assessed value drops, reducing what they pay to local governments.

In Salem, Mass., Dominion plans to retire two units at the Salem Harbor Station later this year, a move that could halve the plant's workforce in a town famous for its 17th century witch trials and where the major business is tourism.

The loss of its 50-year-old power plant poses two dilemmas: how to replace its biggest taxpayer and what to do with the 60 acres of waterfront property when the plant is gone.

"It's not like losing a Dunkin' Donuts," said Mayor Kim Driscoll, noting that attractions such as Baltimore's Inner Harbor took decades to redevelop from abandoned industrial property.

For the next five years, Salem will make up for Dominion's dwindling $4.75 million tax bill with state money, but after that the future is unclear.

"It's a big chunk of change when you're looking at we still have the same number of kids in school, we still have the same number of calls for police and fire, we have the same number of parks and resources that need to be maintained and kept up," Driscoll said. "That's not to say there aren't folks locally that are happy with the fact that a coal-based plant won't be here forever. There are certainly folks here that see it as a way for Salem to flourish in other ways."

___

Online:

EPA and coal: http://tinyurl.com/cog6cjf

EPA and Clean Air Act: http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/index.html

EPA and mercury: http://www.epa.gov/mercury/about.htm

North American Electric Reliability Corp.: http://www.nerc.com

___

Follow Dina Cappiello on Twitter (at)dinacappiello

© 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (53)
Derek GeenDeleted
Pat P11111

Funny not much said about the benefits of the regulations. In the last decade clean air regulation have lowered the death rate from fossil fuel emissions from around 20,000 to about 12,000 annually.

These new rules will continue to decrease the amount of citizens killed by coal particles. Why was that not mentioned in the article?

Don't peoples lives count? Is the price of electricity the only item worth considering? If money is the only thing that matters then consider this:

The numbers are startling: simply tallying public health impacts, the study found that coal costs the United States economy $140 billion to $242 billion a year. Much of this burden is borne by mining communities in Appalachia, where premature deaths associated with coal mining cost local economies an estimated $74.6 billion a year.

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/tallying-coals-hidden-cost/

  • 3 votes
#2 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:30 AM EST
Davy-755715

Well Pat, in the Appalachian communities you speak of, mining provides just about the only opportunity for living wage employment. Doesn't the livelihood of those people matter? In the grand scheme of things, it would seem like all of us better have very deep pockets. Two noteworthy quotes:

"It's not like losing a Dunkin' Donuts," said Mayor Kim Driscoll, noting that attractions such as Baltimore's Inner Harbor took decades to redevelop from abandoned industrial property.

"Coal's coal. If you are going to dig and ship it to China, you might as well burn it here," he said.

    #2.1 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:22 AM EST
    buckeyenut-2225921

    Pat,

    Do you have any idea how poor the Apalachian communities generally are? Take away coal and you might as well just condemn them all to death.

    • 2 votes
    #2.2 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:52 AM EST
    Neetu M.

    buckeyenut, this is a painful change for them, however, do you think there is any other way to make a change from what sounds like obsolete power plants that are damaging to the health of the communities from the hazardous smokestacks in addition to being inefficient and outdated? I would like to know if the EPA can do a transition differently so it continues to provide livelihood to the local people in the communities? Mining has its own risks too. We know that well!

    • 2 votes
    #2.3 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:06 AM EST
    buckeyenut-2225921

    Neetu,

    Fine, let's stop using coal altogether. Let's condemn these people to a life of raising and doing drugs. Drugs are already a bad enough problem in these poor areas. Let's take away any chance these people have for a better life in the name of green energy. THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY.

    " in addition to being inefficient"

    Inefficient? let's discuss wind turbines. We now have over 200 in a wind farm locally. These turbines are estimated to operate 30% of the time at a cost of over 800 million dollars. Add to that the life expectancy of a wind turbine at 20 years and then you'll see what inefficient is.

      #2.4 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:38 AM EST
      JEFFINVA

      So if this whole thing is about efficiency, why aren't these coal plants held to the same standards that a wind facility is? Is it cool to let coal plants slide while our wind turbines have to be replaced every 20 years.

      Also coal or drug use?

      Kind of a broad stroke of the brush isn't it? You realize mining towns often mine things other than coal too right?

      • 2 votes
      #2.5 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:58 AM EST
      Neetu M.

      I am trying to see your point of view, buckeyenut - don't get me wrong. I do see that too. In fact, I am going to educate myself more about the issue and then figure out if progress can be made without people losing jobs and resorting to drugs to beat the frustrations. Just in general, every time there has been change of this magnitude, anywhere in the world, there is a period of transition which is hard, and alternatives have to be found for the people. Once I have read more about it, let's have a discussion then.

        #2.6 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:10 AM EST
        buckeyenut-2225921

        Jeff,

        Wind turbines need replaced every 20 yrs because that is the life expectancy of the turbine. Coal plants from what I've seen don't have such a life expectancy.

          #2.7 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:16 AM EST
          JEFFINVA

          I get that but a coal plant will be out of date and evironmentally obsolete in 20 years just as much as a turbines life expectancy is over in 20 years. Talk about jobs. How about training people to retrofit coal plants with the necessary equipment instead of closing the plants and laying off. That's the problem. Companies would rather lay people off then spend money and hurt their profit.

            #2.8 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:24 AM EST
            buckeyenut-2225921

            Jeff,

            "

            Also coal or drug use?

            Kind of a broad stroke of the brush isn't it? You realize mining towns often mine things other than coal too right?"

            No it isn't a wide stroke. I've visited some of the areas. I have friends from these areas. Our local highschool has a mission trip to some of these areas. The poverty seen there can't be imagined by most and honestly gets swept under the rug. So yes, if you take away a large part of the employment by taking away Coal there are few alternatives. You are aware most of the home grown weed is grown in the areas of Appalachia right? Take away coal mining and where do you think they will turn?

              #2.9 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:26 AM EST
              buckeyenut-2225921

              Jeff,

              "So if this whole thing is about efficiency, why aren't these coal plants held to the same standards that a wind facility is"

              When I refer to efficiency, I'm referring to the percentage of time these turbines are estimated by wind study to be generating power. A coal plant or natural gas production facility can generate 100% of the time. A wind turbine can not.

                #2.10 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:41 AM EST
                Pat P11111

                buckeyenut,

                You have a strange idea about efficiency. You focus on the wind not blowing and the sun going down. I will agree that the solar and wind power are far less efficient at killing people than fossil fuel is.

                Wall Street crashed the American economy because they shifted the risk to the American Tax payer, we picked up the cost of the bad decisions they made. That is called externalizing risk. As long as the housing bubble inflated they won. When it went down they left us holding the bag and they still won.

                The coal industry has externalized the risks developed during production. The American Tax payers who live down wind of the dirty power plans suck that risk into their lungs every day, year after year. Who pays the health care costs? Not the coal industry.

                The replacement of those American killing power plants won't kill Americans. Those power sources will create jobs just as the coal industry does. Pretty amazing how conservatives are all in favor of 'creative destruction' until the capitalists that underwrite their agenda are at risk. Then they are so concerned about those poor workers.

                Spin Baby Spin

                  #2.11 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:15 PM EST
                  JEFFINVA

                  You are aware most of the home grown weed is grown in the areas of Appalachia right? Take away coal mining and where do you think they will turn?

                  Quite the jump, mining coal one day growing weed the next. Grow ops have gained so much traction in Appalachian areas due to it being rural areas and police enforcement in the mountain towns don't really have the manpower or resources to heavily enforce drug policy. Add that with the low level of entertainment for children and young adults and it's a recipe for increases in grow ops...not coal production being shut down. If you have ever lost your job did you automatically turn to growing weed? Neither will they.

                  Not that I would be against that though. The risk sucks for them growing but the money would be ten times better than ANY coal mining job and you don't have to worry about not making it home because the mine collapsed.

                  Just sayin'

                    #2.12 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:20 PM EST
                    buckeyenut-2225921

                    Pat,

                    "You have a strange idea about efficiency. You focus on the wind not blowing and the sun going down. I will agree that the solar and wind power are far less efficient at killing people than fossil fuel is."

                    How did I focus on either? Is there anywhere in the United States that the sun stays up all day? Or is there anywhere in the United States the wind blows at between 5 and 55mph all day? Now, is there anywhere in the United States we can use natural gas to create electricity besides almost every state in the nation?

                    Just how many acres of farm ground should we eat up to generate electricity. We've just taken over 200 acres of the best farm land in NW Ohio out of production for wind energy. We've just removed more food from the mouths of people who need it to generate something power that could have been generated with natural gas. We can starve the people or kill them with pollution. Me, I'd rather die with a full stomach.

                      #2.13 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:32 PM EST
                      buckeyenut-2225921

                      Jeff,

                      " If you have ever lost your job did you automatically turn to growing weed?"

                      Do you know the area? have you visited with the people of the area? Do you have even remotely any idea what the area is like other than it has pretty trees? There are no other job opportunities outside mining. Construction? I haven't seen many new houses being built in most of these areas. Retail? I haven't seen new clothing stores being built in these areas. How about you study the area before you claim I'm making a broad statement. I've been there and spent time with people there. I've seen what poverty looks like, I haven't just read about it. Not one of your comments yet shows me you have any idea what these people face or the hardship they have to endure on a daily basis. But hey, Fuc. them! let's take away coal mining and make the bastards look for something cleaner to do.

                        #2.14 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:37 PM EST
                        Common.Cents

                        You could always eat the birds this project must be "harvesting."

                        We've just taken over 200 acres of the best farm land in NW Ohio out of production for wind energy. We've just removed more food from the mouths of people who need it to generate something power that could have been generated with natural gas.

                        For another stupid question, why can't crops be cultivated on the land under the wind turbines? At worst, raise them another 40 feet or so, so the blades have enough clearance for farm equipment to operate underneath them. The towers can't take up more than 10% of the total area of the field. That still leaves a lot of land that could be cultivated.

                        --
                        ¢ommon ¢ents

                          #2.15 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:38 PM EST
                          buckeyenut-2225921

                          common,

                          I have no good answer to your question. I'll ask someone. I don't know why you can farm right up to a grid tower but you can't get within 200 feet of a wind turbine.

                            #2.16 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:54 PM EST
                            Davy-755715

                            Pat - If you use things like microwaves, fans, air conditioning, cell phones, TV's, PC's and the like, you may well realize that wind turbines aren't going to be able supply all the electrons to keep them working. Assuming you don't jump on the nuke bandwagon, we're going to have to depend on coal, with reasonable methods of cleanliness; there's simply no way around it.

                              #2.17 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:34 PM EST
                              Pat P11111

                              Buckeye

                              Is there anywhere in the United States that the sun stays up all day? Or is there anywhere in the United States the wind blows at between 5 and 55mph all day?

                              It doesn't need to be continuous, you store it. Check out MIT's Daniel Nocera who invented the 'artificial leaf' He has integrated water splitting catalysts into a solar cell. You simply put the device in a bucket of water and set it in the sunlight. It splits the water into oxygen and hydrogen. Hydrogen is almost a perfect fuel. You can run your car with it in your internal combustion engine or for real efficiency with a fuel cell. You can heat your house or generate electricity with it.

                              http://cen.acs.org/articles/89/i48/Electrofuels-Bump-Solar-Efficiency.html

                              Dr Nocera believes that a solar panel the size of a door could supply an American households energy needs. Remember those "No animals were harmed in the making of this film? Well no humans need to die during the production of this energy.

                              Coming soon to a roof top near you. I would think libertarians and conservatives should love this as it enables total energy independence for any home.

                              • 1 vote
                              #2.18 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:48 PM EST
                              Pat P11111

                              Davy,

                              Pat - If you use things like microwaves, fans, air conditioning, cell phones, TV's, PC's and the like, you may well realize that wind turbines aren't going to be able supply all the electrons to keep them working

                              I don't think wind can answer all our needs. I never said that. Solar can and will. I just object to subsidizing fossil fuels that kill ten of thousands of Americans every year. Coal is not cheap, it is deadly. We Americans pay 100 of billions in medical costs annually because of these dirty coal plants. That is not cheap.

                              The coal plant that directly cause these problems need to pay for them.

                              Enough solar strikes the earth every hour to supply our energy need for a year. Think it through. Fossil fuels are stored sunlight. Every drop is harvested photons from the sun. Instead of drilling it, transporting it, refining it, transporting it again and burning it, why not go directly to the source?

                              Photons are transformed into electrons in a solar cell. That energy beaks down water into hydrogen. That entire process can be done in one device with no moving parts and is cheap and made of earth abundant materials.

                              No one breathes soot or dies in a coal mine. No Gulfs of Mexico's are contaminated. No pipelines cross our ecosystem. No power transmission lines criss cross our country. No smog in our cities. No foreign dictator has to be appeased to assure us of a supply.

                              It is within our reach right now. The only thing standing in our way is people have a vested interest in the current fossil fuel industry.

                              About 10% of all global economic activity is wrapped up in supplying energy. We don't need to pay that price anymore. What can we do with 10% of the global wealth? A lot.

                              I think we can spend that money better than the Global Oil Executives.

                                #2.19 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:06 PM EST
                                buckeyenut-2225921

                                "Dr Nocera believes that a solar panel the size of a door could supply an American households energy needs"

                                Ah there's the rub. Dr Nocera BELIEVES, which I take to mean this technology isn't here or for that matter remotely close to being a reality.

                                "Coming soon to a roof top near you"

                                How soon? 1yr, 10yrs, 30 yrs? We need energy production now not coming soon.

                                  #2.20 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:09 PM EST
                                  Pat P11111

                                  Here is a video of the device in glass of plain tap water splitting water.

                                  http://cen.acs.org/articles/89/i48/Electrofuels-Bump-Solar-Efficiency.html

                                  Now show me a video of a prototype 'clean coal' power plant. The ones that the coal industry has been subsidized to produce?

                                  Tata Industries of India just put 12 million in the pot to develop this prototype into a product. The target date is in 4years.

                                  As far as now, check out the worlds first airplane factory that is energy self sufficient.

                                  http://www.charlestonbusiness.com/news/41866-sce-amp-g-completes-boeing-rsquo-s-solar-rooftop-project

                                  It is outrageous that the emerging green energy is being held back while we subsidize the companies that kill our citizens.

                                  Here are some utility scale solar projects right now:

                                  http://www.seia.org/galleries/pdf/Major%20Solar%20Projects.pdf

                                  My money however is on the distributed energy systems like Nocera's. It is the ideal solution to our energy problem. It also is big oils worst nightmare.

                                    #2.21 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:36 PM EST
                                    buckeyenut-2225921

                                    Pat,

                                    TAX CUTS ARE NOT SUBSIDIES. If they are, you get subsidies and so does every other tax paying citizen so quit being dishonest.

                                      #2.22 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:52 PM EST
                                      Pat P11111

                                      buckeyenut

                                      Subsidies are support for production costs. If your production kills and sickens people, as the coal plants do, then you should be liable for those costs.

                                      American society as a whole is paying for those costs. When a young girl in South Carolina goes to the hospital because of coal smoke pollution who pays her bills? Her parents, an insurance company or the government pays. It should be the culprit who pays.

                                      Just because you can not justify letting coal plant owners kill people so they can profit don't accuse me of dishonesty.

                                      I don't kill people for profit so I don't need the government subsides.

                                      http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/tallying-coals-hidden-cost/

                                      Read the article and ask yourself who is responsible for those costs and deaths.

                                        #2.23 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:09 PM EST
                                        Davy-755715

                                        Pat- The sun sends a heluva lot of energy to us, and we have an inexhaustible source of heat down toward the center of our planet. The real trick, is turning it into something we can use. It's kinda like one of those black/white squared anemometers we had as kids, that would spin around in sunlight. I busted the tiny little tube at the end of the bulb, and without the vacuum it wouldn't move; basically an interesting toy, but not something we can economically make use of at present. I know that new technologies occasionally come along, but at this point they don't work good enough to do what we need. There is a degree of risk in nearly everything we do. I guess more money translates into less risk, but I for one am not willing to broke in minimizing risk. We are facing a perfect storm of serious economic problems, and will have to pick our fights carefully, if the nation is to survive.

                                          #2.24 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:07 PM EST
                                          Pat P11111

                                          Davy,

                                          Well then I guess we just keep doing the drill baby drill thing huh. Drill more oil, sell it on the world market and watch the price continue to rise. And Big Oil execs buy a bigger jet and another mansion and the rest of us go slowly broke.

                                          To me that is stupidity, it is what we have been doing for my whole life. When people complain about the huge amounts of money capitalists reap, it is justified they say by the risks they take.

                                          If America wants to lead the world as it once did, we need to take some risks. Not just play it safe.

                                          When did we become so fearful?

                                          Here is a video of the device in glass of plain tap water splitting water using sunlight. his is equal to everyone with a roof having their own personal energy supply. And yes this is new and may have some bugs but freedom is not free and you can't win if you are afraid to lace bet.

                                          http://cen.acs.org/articles/89/i48/Electrofuels-Bump-Solar-Efficiency.html

                                            #2.25 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:40 PM EST
                                            Davy-755715

                                            When did we become so fearful?

                                            An interesting statement. Doesn't it apply to your fear of coal?

                                            I admit, I've been around for a long time, and remember lots of things. As a child I remember drinking from "bubbler" water fountains, which were eventually found to be bacteria farms. If I'd get a stain on my pants, my mom would sometimes get it out by rubbing it with "spot remover", aka benzene, while I was wearing them. Going to the shoe store was neat: They had x-ray machines called fluoroscopes, where you could stick your feet and check the fit of new shoes by seeing your toe bones in them! Busted thermometers were neat too, because you could have fun shining silver coins or otherwise playing with the little globs of mercury. I remember the grade school teacher passing around a chunk of fine insulation, stuff they called asbestos, which was also crumbling off the steam registers and loose plaster in the classroom. I could estimate how cold a winter day was by looking at the rooster tail of thick black smoke coming out of the school chimney. When I was born, well over half the locomotives burned chunk coal. Ever heard of "ethyl" gas? "Ethyl" came from the inclusion of tetraethyl lead, to resist pre ignition in auto engines. I also remember the fun of laying up on the deck behind the back seat of the car, as my dad drove us all somewhere!

                                            The bottom line is that a good number of these things were worse than we realized, and steps were taken to get away from them. But in spite of it all, most all of us are still around! Let's keep working on improvements, but at the same time let's also realize that rationality should govern economic reality, especially as buying power continues to erode.

                                              #2.26 - Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:45 AM EST
                                              Reply
                                              coalbear_1

                                              AEP screams that it can't afford to make their plants cleaner but -

                                              An internet search came up with these numbers. "The compensation package for American Electric Power's chief executive rose 22 percent to $8.7 million in 2010 after his performance-based cash bonus was reinstated, according to Associated Press calculations of data contained in a regulatory filing.

                                              AEP Chairman and CEO Mike Morris earned a performance bonus of $1.6 million after the utility's 2010 earnings per share exceeded a predetermined target. It also completed the year without a work-related fatality.

                                              Morris received a base salary of $1.3 million and stock awards valued at $5.3 million, the company said in a Securities and Exchange Commission filing.

                                              His other compensation totaled $512,969, which included $444,737 for personal use of the company's aircraft, $56,941 in matching funds for retirement savings plans and $10,550 for financial services.

                                              In 2009, Morris earned a base salary of $1.3 million, stock awards totaling $5.3 million and $572,230 in other compensation.

                                              AEP paid negative 7.2 percent taxes (got a tax refund) while making $1.7 billion in profit and also raising power cost to customers by over 300 million. Morris has layed-off thousands of AEP employees and sub-contracted out hundreds of high-paying jobs from local workers. Go figure.

                                              • 4 votes
                                              Reply#3 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:52 AM EST
                                              Sacred Dragon

                                              I hope this is true, because the coal based power NEEDS to be abolished. However, he loss of jobs will hurt, due to the bad job market and overpopulation. But, what would you rather have? A: A life threatening occupation that also pollutes our air. Or B: A non-life threatening occupation that does not pollute the air. I for one vote for the latter.

                                              • 4 votes
                                              Reply#4 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:00 AM EST
                                              Common.Cents

                                              Two questions for you:

                                              1. What do you propose to use to replace the power we currently get from coal? Have you invested any of your money in developing alternatives?
                                              2. Have you invested any of your money in businesses that can create your "Option B"? Are you willing to hire any of the displaced workers who lose their jobs when coal based power is abolished?

                                              --
                                              ¢ommon ¢ents

                                                #4.1 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:04 AM EST
                                                JEFFINVA

                                                Can't speak for him but I recently got solar panels installed on my roof, have had new windows and insulation put in and am currently in the market for a wind powered device to generate more power. Add that to all our energy star appliances and we should be generating enough power to where we will be putting power into the grid. That's a start and it benefits us considering that we will be paid for the energy we don't use, all without using coal. If everyone does the same thing the plants will close themselves. Of course we are years away from making that same thing affordable for everyone, but hey they did it with cell phones.

                                                Plus I don't have to worry about storms knocking out our power.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #4.2 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:10 AM EST
                                                buckeyenut-2225921

                                                Jeff,

                                                I'm curious how are they hooking you to the grid to buy back the power you don't need? My electric co op hasn't come up with a good way to do that yet?

                                                "Plus I don't have to worry about storms knocking out our power"

                                                I don't believe that to be true unless you have a storage system in place to store the electricity generated. If you do, I'd like to know what system you've found because I'm looking for one. Also, a hail storm could take out your panels right? and wind turbines must be turned off at wind speeds of 60mph (some differ) which we see here in NW Ohio from time to time.

                                                  #4.3 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:49 PM EST
                                                  Pat P11111

                                                  Common Cents

                                                  1. What do you propose to use to replace the power we currently get from coal? Have you invested any of your money in developing alternatives?
                                                  2. Have you invested any of your money in businesses that can create your "Option B"? Are you willing to hire any of the displaced workers who lose their jobs when coal based power is abolish

                                                  What does our private investments have to do with power plants being forced to stop killing people? That is the point here. Those dirty coal plants kill people.

                                                  We can produce power with out killing Americans. Capitalism will supply the replacements. They will do whatever is most cost efficient that doesn't kill people.

                                                  You are ducking the issue by putting the burden on us individuals. My name does not end in Koch and I do not kill people for profit. Go ask him what his investments are.

                                                    #4.4 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:34 PM EST
                                                    Reply
                                                    don-72

                                                    Why not create New Jobs by Building New Plants that do not destroy the Environment and make people sick?

                                                    The money saved over time in Health Care and saving the Environment would cost less and create new jobs. The Idea we can not build something better is just nonsense that we hear all the time.

                                                    • 5 votes
                                                    Reply#5 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:25 AM EST
                                                    Common.Cents

                                                    There's nothing stopping you (and others who agree with you) from investing the money and building new power plants that don't "destroy the environment." How much of your own money are you willing to invest in a venture like that?

                                                    --
                                                    ¢ommon ¢ents

                                                      #5.1 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:08 AM EST
                                                      JEFFINVA

                                                      Anybody that pays a power bill to Dominion Power in the East already does. They introduced a new fee for them to add alternative power. Of course they will probably sink much of it into "clean" coal but that is income from residents spent on alternative power.

                                                        #5.2 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:15 AM EST
                                                        Reply
                                                        JEFFINVA

                                                        Can't make an omelet without breakin' a few eggs.

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        Reply#6 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:42 AM EST
                                                        buckeyenut-2225921

                                                        This GREAT NEWS! I don't think i'm paying nearly enough of my income toward lights and hot water.

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        Reply#7 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:48 AM EST
                                                        mstanley2265

                                                        Power companies were given plenty of time to comply. Power companies have already increased their rates. And those pesky lawsuits filed by one state against another because of pollution, ie smog etc, aren't going to go away by leaving in place the polluters.

                                                        Electricity isn't going to be turned off to people as this article seems to suggest because of the clean air rules. Musta been a slow newsday.

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        Reply#8 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:49 AM EST
                                                        buckeyenut-2225921

                                                        Are you aware that the wind turbines so many love need to purchase power from fossil fuel generating plants? If not maybe you should study how these wind turbines get the power to run the computer system that makes the turbine face the wind and you should also see what powers that little red light on top of the turbine.

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #8.1 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:55 AM EST
                                                        mstanley2265

                                                        buckeyenut, I was discussing with more than one member about wind turbines, solar energy etc. for a couple of years off and on. There are also plenty of vid's on YouTube.

                                                        There are a lot of resources for energy now and in the future. The problem was hooking them to the Elecric Grid. The engineers have been diligently working on solving the problems entailed with that issue and have resolved a whole slew of them. They have got the issue's resolved to the point that people can have solar powered hot water heaters in their homes.

                                                        The rules, regulations of installation though are behind the times as usual. The use of coal without scrubbers or ones that are deficient in actual practice were given a lot of time to convert. Some companies choose not to install the up to date scrubbers. IMO either because of the rate increases that such would cause or they were planning on shutting down the power station.

                                                        Coal exports have increased 35% for 2011 which means that other nations are burning coal for energy and probably aren't using effective scrubbers either. That does not mean that the US has to stay with a system that isn't viable especially when the smog goes into other states such as NC and TN making their lives miserable.

                                                          #8.2 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:36 AM EST
                                                          buckeyenut-2225921

                                                          The issue is not hooking them to the grid. We have 200 just installed and all will be online in less than 2 years. These companies started with dirt and in less than 1 year had nearly all 200 turbines up. Had it not been for our terrible weather here, they would have been done in January or early february.

                                                          While I agree there are many alternatives for energy, none are cost effective at this time and most are not efficient enough to produce 100% of the time and all have a greater cost per KW vs gas and coal fired generation.

                                                          And again, these wind turbines must buy power from a local natural gas fired generation facility to power the computers and other electronics necessary to turn the turbines to face the wind. If we get rid of the other generation, these turbines CAN'T FUNCTION ON THIER OWN.

                                                            #8.3 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:52 AM EST
                                                            mstanley2265

                                                            buckeye, of course they'll function on their own if they aren't already. The issue's are being resolved. Newer inventions such as this require a lot of details in the actual engineering factors.

                                                            The small amount of electricity used for the items you mentioned is left in the dust compared to the output of electricity that the wind turbines produce.

                                                            They can't take the electricity from the wind turbines and hook it directly to their buildings ....yet. So, they route it through the grid and then back to the buildings and wind turbines. In effect, they are not 'using' the gas fueled power generator electricity but are using it as a conduit grid for electricity.

                                                              #8.4 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:11 AM EST
                                                              buckeyenut-2225921

                                                              mstanley,

                                                              Newer technology? Wind turbines have been around for quite some time.

                                                              "When were wind turbines first introduced into the world? Are they are a new invention?

                                                              No!

                                                              Essentially wind turbines were made first between 500-900 A.D. by the Persians and were used as a water pumping system. The original windmill model was the vertical axis. This vertical axis was made with vertical sails designed with reeds grouped together to the central vertical shaft by horizontal struts. The windmill concept then moved over to Western Europe in the appearance of a horizontal axis in 1270 A.D. The model was changed because they saw the structural efficiency of drag-type for the horizontal axis wind turbines was greater than that of the vertical axis. The wind turbine was then changed to be able to be used in many ways such as grain grinding, saw milling of timber, pumping water, and irrigation. It was in 1888 that Americans were then able to successfully create a multi-blade wind turbine design that was to produce electricity."

                                                              How much more time will they need to perfect this generating method? BTW when the wind turbines get power from a plant that is not supplied power by the turbines where does the power come from?

                                                                #8.5 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:10 AM EST
                                                                mstanley2265

                                                                hmmm, my papaw's dairy farm had one too...I handed him the tools when he worked on it.

                                                                Back in those days, romans etc, they didn't have power lines. Huge difference. But then IMO our little discussion is kinda at a dead end since I've had discussions with both engineers and electricians at the local electric company about the ends and outs of hooking other forms of power ie solar, wind turbine etc to the Main electric grid.

                                                                  #8.6 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:24 PM EST
                                                                  buckeyenut-2225921

                                                                  mstanley,

                                                                  I'm glad you've had discussions with others about connecting to the grid. I've had the same discussions with executives at Iberdrola and BP Wind Energy. I've also had discussions regarding the average cost /kwhr of wind vs natural gas and coal and the cost comparison isn't even in the same zip code. Wind energy loses hands down. I'm not saying do nothing. I feel we should retrofit the coal plants with scrubbers to clean the emissions. I feel we should find better ways to use the natural gas we have so much of. We just can't take away coal generation because it isn't green.

                                                                    #8.7 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:37 PM EST
                                                                    buckeyenut-2225921

                                                                    mstanley,

                                                                    I would like a little clarification if you don't mind. Are you talking about small scale point of use generators being connected to the grid? Because if you are, yes there is difficulty with a homeowner putting up a generator and then trying to sell back the electricity they do not use. I have also had that discussion with my electric company.

                                                                    If you are referring to large scale like the 50 plus turbines in our first field, the field was up and on line (which means connected to the grid) in less than a year. The only reason the second field of 150 isn't on line is we've had a very wet fall and winter with an unusual amount of rain which has forced them to stop work until we get a freeze or the ground dries.

                                                                      #8.8 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:45 PM EST
                                                                      mstanley2265

                                                                      Executives are nice to talk to but unless they've had field work, they're just repeating from reports of the people that actually do the report and not always accurately.

                                                                      Of course it's more costly, on start up, after the project re-earns the cost of the project then it's profit. Just like when the coal fired generation of power plants were built, just like when the generation of nuclear power plants were built.

                                                                      how did anything I wrote lead to an assumption of the use of a small scale generator which is a combustion engine? Which is also a pollutant in its own little way enough to have been the reason for a lot of homeowners to have died when using one for heat. Being as they didn't understand the effects of CO and CO2 pollutant.

                                                                      Less pollution equals solar panels and wind turbines for energy use. In fact, home made solar systems are being implemented on a small scale Off Grid..lots of those projects on the YouTube as well as small wind turbines for a homeowners use. And lots of articles on NewsVine.

                                                                        #8.9 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:11 PM EST
                                                                        buckeyenut-2225921

                                                                        "Of course it's more costly, on start up, after the project re-earns the cost of the project then it's profit. Just like when the coal fired generation of power plants were built, just like when the generation of nuclear power plants were built."

                                                                        Do you know how long these turbines will take to pay for the investment in them? I'm not talking including subsidies and tax cuts. I'm talking about just the turbine generating enough income on its own to pay for itself.

                                                                        "how did anything I wrote lead to an assumption of the use of a small scale generator which is a combustion engine?"

                                                                        I have no idea what comment you are referring to. Are you referring to my small scale point of use generator comment? If so, wind turbines for residential use is what I meant. I thought that was a given based on our back and forth.

                                                                          #8.10 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:21 PM EST
                                                                          mstanley2265

                                                                          buckeye, wind turbines start ups weren't just investor invested, they were also Federal and State Grant invested, tax incentive deals with states etc etc

                                                                          small wind turbines aren't also attached to generators and you didn't make it clear that that's what you thought.

                                                                          Please, do some more research, I really got to get some housework done.

                                                                            #8.11 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:24 PM EST
                                                                            buckeyenut-2225921

                                                                            "small wind turbines aren't also attached to generators and you didn't make it clear that that's what you thought."

                                                                            You do know these turbines are generators right? What do you mean by small wind turbines aren't also attached to generators? That comment makes no sense to me.

                                                                            Being around a 200 turbine field, believe me I've done plenty of research regarding wind turbines and I also know how long a turbine would take to pay for itself without subsidies. The answer is longer than the anticipated life span of the turbine. Great investment.

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #8.12 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:49 PM EST
                                                                            Common.Cents

                                                                            @buckeyenut-2225921,

                                                                            I think he's refering to the energy required by the field coils on most commercial power generators. I'm not sure where wind turbines get the power to energize the field coils.

                                                                            Most commercial power generating plants get the power for the field coils from the power grid. Some generating facilities have an alternate power source for the field coils and are capable of "cold starting." For example, at Hoover dam, in addition to the main power generators, there is one small generator in each power house which has a permanent magnet generator in it. In the event of a total grid failure, these generators would provide power to field coils of one of the main power generators in order to get that started. Once one of the big generators is running, it could provide power to the field coils on the other generators and get them going.

                                                                            Some (but not all that many) coal fired, oil fired or nuclear plants also have an alternate, permanent magnet generator which can provide energy to the field coils to "cold start" the facility.

                                                                            Most power generating facilities will not start if there is no power on the grid. So if there ever was a complete, nation wide grid failure, the "cold start capable" generating stations would have to be started first, and power from those would be used to bring up the other generating facilities.

                                                                            Again, I'm not really sure how modern wind turbine generators work. It's possible to use batteries to provide the field coil energy, or to get that energy from the grid at the time you start the turbine up (in which case, the turbine would be dead if grid power was not available to start it). It's also possible that there is a smaller permanent magnet generator somewhere in the turbine unit which can provide startup power to the field coils.

                                                                            Electricity is one of those things where you have to have some in order to make a lot more.

                                                                            --
                                                                            ¢ommon ¢ents

                                                                              #8.13 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:04 PM EST
                                                                              Reply
                                                                              coalbear_1

                                                                              Take a look at this. I drive by the new plant every day. It's one heck of a lot better than Carbo Plant that was built in the 1950's.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              Reply#9 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:46 PM EST
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