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High court examines lying about military exploits

Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:05 AM EST
politics, us, supreme-court, court, valor, stolen-valor, xavier-alvarez
Mark Sherman, Associated Press
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 3 photos
<p>In this photo taken Wednesday, Feb. 8, 2012, Doug and Pam Sterner are photographed in their home in Alexandria, Va. Pam is the author of a college paper that led to the drafting of a federal law in 2006, the Stolen Valor Act, aimed at curbing false claims of military valor, and Doug exposes phony medal winners. (AP Photo/Carolyn Kaster)</p>

In this photo taken Wednesday, Feb. 8, 2012, Doug and Pam Sterner are photographed in their home in Alexandria, Va. Pam is the author of a college paper that led to the drafting of a federal law in 2006, the Stolen Valor Act, aimed at curbing false claims of military valor, and Doug exposes phony medal winners. (AP Photo/Carolyn Kaster)

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WASHINGTON — Xavier Alvarez was in good company when he stood up at a public meeting and called himself a wounded war veteran who had received the top military award, the Medal of Honor.

Alvarez was lying about his medal, his wounds and his military service, but he wasn't the first man to invent war exploits.

He was, however, one of the first people prosecuted under a 2006 federal law aimed at curbing false claims of military valor.

Concerns that the law improperly limits speech and turns people into criminals for things they say, rather than do, are at the heart of the Supreme Court's review of his case and the Stolen Valor Act.

Veterans groups have come to the aid of the Obama administration, which calls the law a narrowly crafted effort to protect the system of military awards that was established during the Revolutionary war by Gen. George Washington. The high court will hear the case Wednesday, which is Washington's 280th birthday.

"They're committing fraud. They're impersonating somebody else. They take on attributes of somebody else, attributes of a hero who served honorably," said Pam Sterner, whose college term paper calling for the law wound up in the hands of members of Congress. "When you do that, impersonating someone else, that's fraud, not freedom of speech."

Civil liberties groups, writers, publishers and news media outlets, including The Associated Press, have told the justices they worry the law, and especially the administration's defense of it, could lead to more attempts by government to regulate speech.

When he established military decorations in 1782, seven years before he was elected as the nation's first president, Washington himself also prescribed severe military punishment for soldiers who purported to be medal winners but weren't. Since then, many men have embellished their war records, and some have won special recognition.

It long has been a federal crime to wear unearned medals, but mere claims of being decorated were beyond the reach of law enforcement.

The House of Representatives has more than once voted to name a post office after men who claimed awards they never received. The Air Force named an award after a man who falsely claimed to have survived the Bataan Death March and been awarded the Silver Star in World War II. The Boxing Writers of America named its perseverance award after the late Pat Putnam of Sports Illustrated because of his made-up tale of surviving a Chinese prisoner of war camp in the Korean War and receiving a Navy Cross.

The Stolen Valor Act aimed to solve that problem, and garnered significant support in Congress during a time of war.

"The admiration and respect for the military increased dramatically after 9/11 and the false claims, as well," said Thomas A. Cottone Jr., a retired FBI agent who investigated phony award cases.

Alvarez made his claims by way of introducing himself as an elected member of the Three Valleys Municipal Water District in Pomona, Calif. There is nothing to suggest that he received anything in exchange or that listeners especially believed him.

Even Alvarez' lawyers acknowledged their client sometimes has trouble telling the truth. "Xavier Alvarez lied," they declare in the first sentence of their Supreme Court brief and go on to recount six separate lies in the next few lines.

He lied when he claimed he played hockey for the Detroit Red Wings, married a Mexican starlet who made paparazzi swoon, was an engineer, rescued the American ambassador during the Iranian hostage crisis and was shot when he went back for the U.S. flag. Alvarez also lied, they said, when he talked about his military service.

But the lies Alvarez told harmed no one, they said, so what he did couldn't be considered fraud.

A three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco struck down the law as an unconstitutional restraint on free speech and said the government might instead invest in an awards database that would make it harder for people to lay claim to medals they never won. Last month, the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver upheld the law in a separate case, saying the First Amendment does not always protect false statements.

The issue might never have reached this stage if not for the efforts of Sterner, and her husband, Doug.

He is a decorated Vietnam veteran who has made it his work in recent years to ensure that service members get the recognition they deserve and expose those who falsely claim acts of heroism under fire. Rather than wait for the government to act, Doug Sterner has entered nearly 100,000 award citations since Civil War in his online database, including all 3,475 Medal of Honor winners in U.S. history. His archive is used by the Military Times newspapers, published by Gannett Co.

Pam Sterner went back to school in her early 40s at Colorado State University in Pueblo, Colo. In a political science course, she wrote a paper that grew out of her husband's frustrations over phony award claimants whose worst punishment was public embarrassment. That paper eventually led to the Stolen Valor Act.

Doug Sterner's database did not save Rep. Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, from some embarrassment when he invited cameras and reporters to watch him pin medals on an elderly Korean War veteran in June.

The veteran, Myron Brown of Utah, said his Distinguished Service Cross and Silver Star were awarded belatedly, and he asked Chaffetz to present them to him publicly.

After the ceremony took place, Sterner and others raised questions about the medals and the Pentagon confirmed to Chaffetz in December that they were not authentic.

"Others have been burned by this. I have too, but I want to solve the problem," Chaffetz told the Salt Lake Tribune. He is planning a hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform subcommittee he leads to explore creating a government-run awards database.

© 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (73)
Joe4Obama

"When you do that, impersonating someone else, that's fraud, not freedom of speech."]

Then we should place all Hollywood actors in jail. Doesn't sound like he was impersonating someone else but rather representing his history as something that was not. He was misrepresenting himself. In this case we should include gwb within this framework.

  • 11 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:22 AM EST
MeanGene-3334839

Then we should place all Hollywood actors in jail.

Don't about half of them wind up there anyway? Between Wesley Snipes, Charlie Sheen, Lindsay Lohan and Mel Gibbs, you could practically hold a Golden Globes awards ceremony behind bars.

Doesn't sound like he was impersonating someone else but rather representing his history as something that was not.

As with most crimes, motive matters and in this crime the motive was to gain undeserved respect and admiration. His motive was criminal in nature.

  • 5 votes
#1.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:52 AM EST
Joe4Obama

You are absolutely correct.

I was correcting the article which reported impersonation. I doubt he tried to be someone else. He was being himself all the while misrepresenting his past.

...gain undeserved respect and admiration.

Difficult to admire people engaging in killing voluntarily. We shouldn't be putting people in jail for misrepresenting themselves. How are we going to deal with Christians wanting to be Christ like, or not.... We should be putting REAL WHITE COLLAR criminals in jail (banking, wallstreet, etc.). I am still waiting for that day. Laws should be based on Universal truths and not just convenience.

  • 11 votes
#1.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:06 AM EST
HappyToSeeYa

Military service misrepresentation should have heavy fines attached in order to discourage liars and posers.

Too many women and men have lost a great deal in service to our country. Their service legacy should not be stolen by liars in order gain ego boosts, political office, jobs, etc.

  • 9 votes
#1.3 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:23 AM EST
PCMan-615609Expand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

In this case we should include gwb within this framework.

Let’s not forget about Obama…….he is definitely falsely impersonating a President...!!!

  • 5 votes
#1.4 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:42 AM EST
Peter Jacobs

Punish real criminals.

  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 AM EST
Don't you people have jobs?

Yeah... that's "half"

  • 1 vote
#1.6 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:54 AM EST
weRdoomed

I think PCMan-615609's comment should be deleted. It is clearly a derailment and will potentially change the direction of this entire thread.

That being said - lying about your past (or, rather, embellishing it) is not uncommon. There are many honorable professions that people pretend to be a part of (doctors, nurses, teachers, police officers, etc...) I do not think the job of a soldier is so sacred that it is any more demeaning to embellish that career than any other.

Should someone profit in some way from their lie - that can cross the line into something criminal, but mostly - this is a character issue and I don't see how you can prosecute someone for having bad character.

  • 9 votes
#1.7 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:58 AM EST
Peter Jacobs

Should someone profit in some way from their lie - that can cross the line into something criminal, but mostly - this is a character issue and I don't see how you can prosecute someone for having bad character.

When someone profits means someone else lost. My question, why aren't there more bankers and brokers in jail. They misrepresent themselves all the time. Oh yeah, that mortgage backed security is solid.

weRdoomed Thanks for your intelligent post. Uptick.

  • 5 votes
#1.8 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:00 AM EST
TPisFORtheBATHROOM101

I too have received many medals,wellll technically. It was on a video game which I played before. Sheesh.

A complete waste of time for some ignorant asswipe who's probably too scared to go outside after sunset without a dog.

  • 2 votes
#1.9 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:03 AM EST
angryirish

How are we going to deal with Christians wanting to be Christ like, or not....

How is that even remotely related to this story? It's incredible that it only took 3 posts for a hater to pipe in.

    #1.10 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:11 PM EST
    Reply
    The Incredulous One

    As someone who has three Medals of Honor already, and hoping to get a fourth by the end of next week, I think he should be able to say whatever the hell he wants. It's despicable to lie about a thing like that, but he should be free to do it. That said, he shouldn't be able to lie on "official" forms or applications on which it's already illegal to make deliberate misrepresentations. I hope the Supremes strike down the act.

    • 9 votes
    Reply#2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:26 AM EST
    patriot_in_nh

    The Incredulous One

    As someone who has three Medals of Honor already, and hoping to get a fourth by the end of next week, I think he should be able to say whatever the hell he wants. It's despicable to lie about a thing like that, but he should be free to do it. That said, he shouldn't be able to lie on "official" forms or applications on which it's already illegal to make deliberate misrepresentations. I hope the Supremes strike down the act.

    You are despicable. In 1917 the laws governing award of the Medal of Honor have ended all multiple awards of the Medal of Honor.

    • 5 votes
    #2.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:12 AM EST
    Ripley8

    actually ?

    Nineteen men have been awarded the Medal of Honor twice. Five of these men were awarded both the Army and Navy Medal of Honor for the same action. Since February 1919, no single individual can be awarded more than one Medal of Honor for the same action although a member of one branch of the armed forces can receive the Medal of Honor from another branch, if the actions for which it was awarded were under the authority of the said branch. The maximum number of Medals of Honor earned by any service member has been two.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_Honor#Double_recipients

    • 6 votes
    #2.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:03 AM EST
    The Incredulous One

    You are despicable.

    Huh?

    • 1 vote
    #2.3 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:16 AM EST
    Meloney

    10 USC § 3744 - Medal of honor; distinguished-service cross; distinguished-service medal: limitations on award

    (a)No more than one medal of honor, distinguished-service cross, or distinguished-service medal may be awarded to a person. However, for each succeeding act that would otherwise justify the award of such a medal or cross, the President may award a suitable bar or other device to be worn as he directs.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/3744

    • 3 votes
    #2.4 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:41 PM EST
    NC Slim

    #2 the incredulousone

    If someone decides to slander or defame--is that free speech? No. Lying is lying and has nothing to do with free speech. Many folks have lost jobs for lying on their resumes. Suppose the cardiac surgeon in the O.R. never graduated from Johns Hopkins or finished residency at the Mayo Clinic. As the patient--you would call your lawyer and say the doctor lied. Sue his butt.

      #2.5 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:16 PM EST
      The Incredulous One

      Slim. read my #4.7

      I agree with you say, but that's not the issue here. The question for the Supreme Court is whether the government has the power under the Constitution to criminalize the lying he did.

      • 1 vote
      #2.6 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:29 PM EST
      Ripley8

      (a)No more than one medal of honor, distinguished-service cross, or distinguished-service medal may be awarded to a person. However, for each succeeding act that would otherwise justify the award of such a medal or cross, the President may award a suitable bar or other device to be worn as he directs.

      so one could say in theory they had received more than one Medal of Honor ?

      • 2 votes
      #2.7 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:38 AM EST
      Meloney

      yes, TIO is to be congratuated on his exceptional acheivement!

      It's my impression that while only one medal may be issued subsequent honors would be recognized by other bars or pins or whatever. TIO could you tell us how that worked in your case? (if you would share the type of honor or other details I'd love to hear about it)

      • 2 votes
      #2.8 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:50 PM EST
      The Incredulous One

      Yes, thank you Meloney for asking. I appreciate all sincere requests to expound on my heroic exploits. But, I misspoke. I meant I have four Medals of Honor, and a fifth to be awarded by the end of next week. A sixth is already in my possession, but I'm not allowed to unwrap the gift box until the successful completion of my Moon Mission. I'm not worried though as my derriere is sufficiently muscular and well proportioned to make a suitable impression against a wide variety of glass, even frosted (I mean the glass.) In the event of a fatal crack (I mean the glass), it could be awarded posthumously. I've left instructions with my upholsterer who has been very supportive through the years.

      Thank you for your interest.

      • 2 votes
      #2.9 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:44 PM EST
      Meloney

      cute, oh ... K then. Early for April Fools but I've clearly submitted myself to the status of fooled by One who is not incredulous in this case.

      Nonetheless let the record show that it's a myth that multiple honors may not be given to one individual and that those who'd play on that myth might likewise be considered within the status.

      • 2 votes
      #2.10 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:42 AM EST
      Jeremiah-2094437

      I think video games issue more than one to the same person, though I could be mistaken, now to what medal of honor is one referring to when they speak of themselves doing xyz and earning xyz, I've a cousin who is as vet as they come if you would hear him tell it, yet is not old enough to serve, ... yet.. (I have no doubt the day he can is the day he will, but that's another story)

        #2.11 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:59 PM EST
        The Incredulous One

        Ohhh Mel.

        Darn, and I thought I was being witty, stating an obvious, I thought, falsehood about having multiple MoH, (and expecting another by the end of the week) while telling an arguable lie, thus testing the freedom of speech angle.

        • 1 vote
        #2.12 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:38 PM EST
        Meloney

        Well done then TIO.

        • 1 vote
        #2.13 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:40 AM EST
        Reply
        thom34tum4932Deleted
        MeanGene-3334839

        I actually do have an honorable discharge, a fact which I can tell employers as most people look upon military service as a plus. If I were lying on a job application about my military service and an employer found out about it, that would be a firing offense. That would be fired for cause, no unemployment insurance, nothing because of the lie and nobody, but nobody, would blame the employer for not wanting a liar on the staff.

        If a lie can get you fired (you betcha it can) then can a lie get you sent to jail?

        Yep. Lewis "Scooter" Libby got sentenced to 30 months in the hoosegow for one count of obstruction of justice (via lying), two counts of perjury (lying by definition) and one count of making false statements (that is also lying). The CIA was investigating the leak of Valerie Plame's identity and if you're going to lie about something, lying about the CIA is probably not the brightest thing to be lying about.

        So liars can be fired and liars can go to jail. Why is the Supreme Court even hearing this case when the answer to this question seems so stone cold obvious?

        • 4 votes
        Reply#4 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:43 AM EST
        Meloney

        The law he broke is "The Stolen Valor Act" so they argue:

        “This case is about theft, not lying in general,” wrote D.C. lawyer Michael T. Morley in the brief. “Alvarez, and others like him, have misappropriated for their own benefit an unearned share of the two centuries’ worth of goodwill and prestige associated with American military awards.”

        WaPo link

        • 1 vote
        #4.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:55 AM EST
        HappyToSeeYa

        I agree with . . . MeanGene

        Military women and men who give and have given so much in service to us in America's wars are done a disservice when their levels of service is claimed and thus denigrated by posers.

        • 2 votes
        #4.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:03 AM EST
        MeanGene-3334839

        Thanks for the link, Meloney.

        It held something worth noting, and which I think makes the case against the scoundrel Mr. Alvarez.

        Certain categories of speech, as Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. made clear last year, fall outside of First Amendment protection: obscenity, defamation, fraud, incitement and speech integral to criminal conduct.

        Fraud falls outside of First Amendment Protection according to the Supremest Supreme Court Justice, so the obvious thrust of the argument against this scoundrel, this brigand, this deceiver and rogue, is going to be that his claim was fraudulent. It's an easy and obvious argument to make against the misdeeds of Mr. Alvarez.

        Looking at the arguments posed by the ACLU about government power to have sweeping control over public debate inherent in the law, I can find no value to that argument.

        In what imaginable situation of public debate would a false claim of military service and honors enter into reasonable purpose and use? Without any plausible example, I don't see the ACLU position as tenable, or even reasonable.

        • 2 votes
        #4.3 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:36 AM EST
        Meloney

        There is no doubt his claim was fraudulent. The question before the Court is whether it is Constitutional to criminalize making that fraudulent claim.

        The ACLU is joined by other briefs seeking to rule against criminalizing this speech:

        the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press and 23 news organizations, including The Washington Post, filed a brief saying that upholding the law would reverse “the basic presumption against official oversight of expression.”

        Better than criminalizing speech, the brief said, is to promote aggressive coverage of those making the claims.

        • 2 votes
        #4.4 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:13 AM EST
        MeanGene-3334839

        Well, if upholding the law would "reverse the basic presumption against official oversight of expression" then could it not be legal to impersonate a police officer?

        I'm pretty sure that if you say that you're a cop and you're really not one, then you're in criminal trouble for the fib.

        I seem to remember a dude (dudette?) getting in deep doody over surgery on a booty.

        Doctor Fix-a-Flat was busted for practicing medicine without a license. How he/she/it ever convinced anybody that was a professional medical procedure is beyond me, but it was definitely not legal to be claiming to be a doctor anyway.

        There are other precedents for criminalizing a claim of being something you're not. I know you can't claim to be a cop, and apparently you can't play doctor either.

        • 1 vote
        #4.5 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:41 AM EST
        Jake319

        Na,, a poser is nothing more then that a poser. The real shame is the pass we give to possers.

        Few will front up a poserTo there face .

        If I here a guy from My generation running on about Vietnam. I make a joke about it, change the subject...
        This is not a matter for the courts to decide this is a family of man issue...

        • 2 votes
        #4.6 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:12 AM EST
        The Incredulous One

        Well, if upholding the law would "reverse the basic presumption against official oversight of expression" then could it not be legal to impersonate a police officer?

        Not likely. The state (govt. i.e., the people) has an interest in protecting the public from the actions of phony cops. Doctors are licensed by the state, and the state has an interest in protecting the public against phony doctors.

        Various fraudulent activities are criminalized and others are tortuous (i.e., there can be lawsuits), but it is for actions, not speech, or writing unpopular things. Not all speech is protected, true, but those are narrowly defined for a reason. Defamation is not protected speech, but the remedy is a lawsuit. And so on.

        If the guy induced someone to give him money, say, based on his "Medal of Honor", they could sue him. If he applied for some hypothetical government program available only to MoH winners, he could be criminally prosecuted, etc. But here, you want him jailed because he is saying things. The harm in his saying things has to be careful weighed against the benefit to the public in shutting him up i.e., depriving him of a Constitutional right just because he is a scumbag liar.

        A phony cop or doctor can do some real damage. A phony MoH winner might cause me to doubt whether some other MoH winner is real or not. That's a shame really, but I'm a skeptical guy anyway, so it wouldn't make much difference to me. MoH winners are enough of a rarity that I would always wonder whether some person was the real thing or not.

        • 3 votes
        #4.7 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:52 AM EST
        The Incredulous One

        Sorry, tortious not tortuous, though I suppose they could be tortuous, too.

        • 3 votes
        #4.8 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:01 PM EST
        FlNutmegger

        For every lie foisted upon an unknowing public by one of these people consider that it does diminish the heroism of those who through their valor honestly were awarded these honors. To make light of it or discounting the seriousness of the act simply adds a layer disgust for the acts of the individual.

        • 3 votes
        #4.9 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:47 PM EST
        robinm85

        Please call them recipients not winners. They didn't "win" anything. They were awarded a medal for their valor in a stressful situation, which I'm sure most of them had wished never happened.

          #4.10 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:30 PM EST
          Reply
          AlphaTrion

          It is a scummy thing to do, surely, but I don't think it is a crime unless they use the lie to get some sort of benefit.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#5 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:56 AM EST
          HappyToSeeYa

          The level of benefit frequently results in tangibles and untangibles including heightened levels of community respect that may or may not include enhanced earnings, or, especially political office. That same community that would be upset if it's revealed that it had been lied to about military service achievements that were unearned.

          • 2 votes
          #5.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:11 AM EST
          Reply
          lareinacox

          Nice and sleek.

            Reply#6 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:09 AM EST
            Jimi Maynard

            I'm pretty sure George Bush mislead the people about his service record saying things like he was Vietnam Vet but in reality never was in Vietnam or in the war and in fact was safe at home in the reserves. And I do believe I've read of many more politicians that are guilty of same kind of thing.

            • 3 votes
            Reply#7 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:28 AM EST
            Peter Jacobs

            Thank you Jimi.

            • 2 votes
            #7.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:35 AM EST
            MeanGene-3334839

            The fibs W. Bush told were always caught out. He said he was in the US Air Force (not hardly) and that he'd been to war (where was that war at in Texas anyway?)

            That's why these lies, especially at that level, are signs of sheer stupidity. It's easy enough to check out such things and of course if you're running for President then you're going to be fact-checked on every word you utter.

            • 1 vote
            #7.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:48 AM EST
            Peter Jacobs

            He went to war on his ranch shooting grouse with his buddy dick. Hunting with dick could be a real war.

            • 5 votes
            #7.3 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:52 AM EST
            BeMyJellyfish

            Jimi & Gene

            You are wrong about GWB. Regardless of what you think of the man, he did in fact serve in the U.S. Air Force and the TX Air National Guard. He was a fully qualified fighter pilot who flew the F-102 Delta Dagger. I don't think he ever claimed to have served in Vietnam. The only reference I remember about Vietnam is that he had added his name to the list of pilots who would take an assignment in SE Asia if they were asked to deploy.

              #7.4 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:30 AM EST
              MeanGene-3334839

              He went to war on his ranch shooting grouse with his buddy dick. Hunting with dick could be a real war.

              Bush is an MBA, and Cheney only shoots Lawyers.

              At least we're starting to get to the point where the Vietnam War isn't a factor in Presidential runs anymore. It was getting crazy with John "Three Purple Hearts" Kerry, John "War Hero" McCain, Bill "Draft Dodger" Clinton, and Dubya "AWOL" Bush.

              Now in 2012, instead of hearing about White House War Heroes, we've got a pack of total War Zeroes.

              • 1 vote
              #7.5 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:32 AM EST
              Peter Jacobs

              Now in 2012, instead of hearing about White House War Heroes, we've got a pack of total War Zeroes.

              Maybe that is exactly what we need. War zeroes.

              • 2 votes
              #7.6 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:57 AM EST
              Reply
              patriot_in_nh

              If you can cite facts that show former President Bush claimed to be a Vietnam Vet, you should. But I believe you are just talking out of your ass.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#8 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:46 AM EST
              Americanpatriot12

              Call it deliberate FRAUD. There has to be some legal ground to prosecute a low-life who would falsely claim to be a war hero. NOT prosecuting and severely punishing people like this -- is an insult to those thousands who really are war heroes!

              • 1 vote
              Reply#9 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:02 AM EST
              Spike Evans

              I'm all for it as long the distorting of a person's military record for political gain is also punishable as fraud.

              See Max Cleland and John Kerry.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#10 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:02 AM EST
              bestquest

              for heavens sake, John was shot three times!! why are you believing Cheney? Who also in 2000 pooh poohed John McCain's 5 years in Hanoi as a tortured POW.

              • 1 vote
              #10.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:33 PM EST
              Reply
              wxman79

              PCMan-615609 wrote:

              Let’s not forget about Obama…….he is definitely falsely impersonating a President...!!!

              Wow, just wow. There is always someone her to make moronic statements.


              • 5 votes
              Reply#11 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:12 AM EST
              BeMyJellyfish

              As a veteran myself, I would have to say that simply lying about a record of service or medals received should not be a crime alone. If people are gullable enough to believe someone's stories without any verification, then shame on them. There are already laws covering the actions of these people when they do more than just "tell tall tales." If they wear medals or a uniform they didn't earn, they are in violation of the law. If they produce forged documents regarding service records or awards, they are breaking the law. If they profit under false pretenses, they are committing an illegal fraud.

              I think its just another example of our wonderful legislators passing another law based on emotional reaction. At some point, individuals need to be responsible for their own actions. If that action includes believing someone's BS war stories, then that's on them. I think this law is a violation of the First Ammendment and should be struck down by the court.

              • 5 votes
              Reply#12 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:23 AM EST
              FlNutmegger

              BeMyJellyfish, well and truly said. As a CWV, once this guy is found out and publicly shamed the matter is closed. As far as records are concerned, all of mine are at the bottom of a land fill as a result of a personal war with the VA which I lost mainly because a desk jockey was feeling his power and actually denied my proven claims with no appeal allowed. Never regretted my service only my treatment by my own government.

              • 1 vote
              #12.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:40 PM EST
              BeMyJellyfish

              FINutmegger,

              I know what you mean about the VA. My father is a combat disabled Vietnam veteran. He refuses to have anything to do with the VA and will pay for things out of his own pocket rather than go to them for treatment. He was severely wounded in the leg, almost requiring amputation. A few years ago, the VA, in an attempt to reduce his % of diability, was trying to convince him to come in and go under the knife again. They claimed that there were medical advances that could "help" him. First of all, his sciatic nerve was almost completely severed, and delcately repaired by a neurosurgeon at the time. He has so much scar tissue that the chance of any improvement at this time is virtually non existent, but the danger of damage that would require amputation is pretty high. This was about nothing more than the VA trying to modify his disability % down. Which is funny, because my father didn't sit around collecting a check, he worked for the DoD for 36 years, a lot of time on his feet. Its a disgrace that they would try to pull a stunt like that!

              I have hearing loss (of course) and some back issues that are service related. I doubt I will ever go to the VA for anything! That's the shame of it, that there are so many veterans who don't even want to deal with the VA.

                #12.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:07 PM EST
                Reply
                HeelsnHairMetal

                Wait, WHY is this a crime? So he told people he served: so what? Making up stories about past exploits should not be a crime, unless you falsify statements on some sort of official document. If you tell someone that in your younger years you were a famous bull rider, and it turns out that you weren't, how is that fraud?

                People shouldn't lie, but lets not turn every lie into a basis for fraud. If he was just out to get some attention and admiration from the public, then whatever, shame on him. So long as he did not try to apply for certain benefits that should only legally be given to those who actually served or lied on an application for employment, let him go!

                  Reply#13 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:47 AM EST
                  K I Smart Simple

                  Courts should never encourage a person to lie or condone lying.

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#14 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:32 AM EST
                  MeanGene-3334839

                  I don't think they would, just based on the profession. Most judges have law degrees and have a history as a lawyer. Being that they're lawyers, and claiming to be a lawyer is frowned upon and in many cases even prosecuted, a Judge would naturally take a dim view of lying.

                  • 1 vote
                  #14.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:55 AM EST
                  beej mcl

                  Courts should never encourage a person to lie or condone lying.

                  yet it is perfectly ok when it comes to the police or prosecutors to lie in order get a confession. when the "law" itself is aloud to lie, there is no true justice.

                  • 1 vote
                  #14.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:50 AM EST
                  Heavy Artillery Rocker

                  I'll agree that lying to get a confession is a fine art not yet mastered. However, catching a stupid individual is easier this way.

                  I'm not following you're analogy of how the "law" lies. Could you be more specific?

                  • 1 vote
                  #14.3 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:17 PM EST
                  Reply
                  bestquest

                  Three years ago, a ww2 veteran died in Hammond, Indiana. He had 5 bronze stars for valor earned in Europe. Notice, valor, not for merit.

                  There is another younger veteran to the eastern part of the state who has 5 bronze stars for valor.

                  Both are in my 100 heroes list. Luckiest fellas to have survived so much.

                  War stories such as weighted down with 400 pounds and jumping into northern France June 5, 1944 are very easy to laugh off. Claiming glory and honor, unearned, should be punished.

                    Reply#15 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:40 PM EST
                    melrob9880

                    Were is my medal of honor. I fight with the IRS on a daily basis, lol. If this was such a big deal to the Military, why did they not write into the USMJ.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#16 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:44 PM EST
                    Heavy Artillery Rocker

                    The Uniform Code of Military Justice, UCMJ, doesn't cover what takes place in the civilian world.

                    Anyone who would tell a tall tale like this has a very low self esteem. Whether they have a military past or not.

                    If you're fighting the Govt. (IRS) your honor is in the blood you spill, as this would make you a patriot. LOL

                    • 1 vote
                    #16.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:07 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Heavy Artillery Rocker

                    This really doesn't need to be a crime as much as it needs to become a public display of ridicule for those involved in doing such stoopid claims. A permanent record should be made for everyone to see, employers, neighbors, etc.

                    • 3 votes
                    Reply#17 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:12 PM EST
                    coalbear_1

                    So why is law enforcement and game police allowed to lie and misrepresent themselves Without Cause and it's not a crime? It's actually taught in training how to lie well and held in high regard by "the boys". Politicians do it all the time too. I'd put lawyers at number 3.

                      Reply#18 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:57 PM EST
                      Heavy Artillery Rocker

                      When did it become "against the law" to lie?

                      And you are mistaken my friend. Lawyers are No.1 (they invented the art of lying).

                        #18.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:02 PM EST
                        coalbear_1

                        I stand corrected Heavy, come to think of it. Lawyers are pretty much scum. If you lie to cops they will arrest YOU. Why not the other way around? Why can't all these thugs just get a little bit of ethics. Heck, if a dog don't like you he don't lick you hand then bite you. I can't say the same thing about so called public servants. It's sad.

                        • 1 vote
                        #18.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:16 PM EST
                        robinm85

                        People get in trouble all the time for lying to cops.

                          #18.3 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:42 PM EST
                          Reply
                          Mofongo

                          This guy's a douchebag. Life has already punished him over and over again. Let the courts concern themselves with more serious issues.

                          But if you really must tackle self aggrandizing liars, why not go after Rick Santorum for misrepresenting his time on the armed services committee as military service in order to get votes?

                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#19 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:07 AM EST
                          Meloney

                          Mark Kirk (Senator IL) lied about his service too.

                          Mark Kirk Admits To ANOTHER False Military Record Claim

                          • 2 votes
                          #19.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:00 PM EST
                          Reply
                          bestquest

                          An Ohio county is expecting about 2,000 veterans to be returning soon. The county officials are attempting to consolodate the county veterans representative, VA, employment services and other needed resources together in one building to reduce the time and hassle.

                          Unfortunately, there are no job openings yet. Let us hope that the improving economy also reaches there.

                          There, years ago, I learned to listen carefully to veterans stories and separate the very truth from inflated tales. Either make good reading, but puffing up ones heroic exploits is easy to burst.

                          • 1 vote
                          Reply#20 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:22 PM EST
                          Bad Fish

                          How difficult would it be to keep a database? Enough with the hearings and investigations. How much is all this costing the tax payers? Sure lying is despicable but unless they make money lying, it shouldn't be considered fraud. There needs to be a clear cut victim before we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars investigating some moron that wishes he or she was a hero.

                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#21 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:29 PM EST
                          coalbear_1

                          You must beleive that local officials only get paid what the county/city pays them. Wake up, you don't buy new homes and expensive cars on county pay of 25-35 grand a year.

                            #21.1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:43 PM EST
                            Reply
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