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Chicago school draws scrutiny over student fines

Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:28 PM EST
us-news, us, school, chicago, students, fining, noble-street-college-prep
Tammy Webber, Associated Press
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 3 photos
<p>In this photo taken Feb. 16, 2012, Noble Street College Prep CEO Mike Milke talks with student Gabriela Cervantes during school in Chicago. The school has drawn scrutiny some parents and advocacy groups for its policy of charging students $5 for detentions stemming from infractions that can include chewing gum and having untied shoelaces. (AP Photo/M. Spencer Green)</p>

In this photo taken Feb. 16, 2012, Noble Street College Prep CEO Mike Milke talks with student Gabriela Cervantes during school in Chicago. The school has drawn scrutiny some parents and advocacy groups for its policy of charging students $5 for detentions stemming from infractions that can include chewing gum and having untied shoelaces. (AP Photo/M. Spencer Green)

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CHICAGO — A sense of order and decorum prevails at Noble Street College Prep as students move quickly through a hallway adorned with banners from dozens of colleges. Everyone wears a school polo shirt neatly tucked into khaki trousers. There's plenty of chatter but no jostling, no cellphones and no dawdling.

The reason, administrators say, is that students have learned there is a price to pay — literally — for breaking even the smallest rules.

Noble Network of Charter Schools charges students at its 10 Chicago high schools $5 for detentions stemming from infractions that include chewing gum and having untied shoelaces. Last school year it collected almost $190,000 in discipline "fees" from detentions and behavior classes — a policy drawing fire from some parents, advocacy groups and education experts.

Officials at the rapidly expanding network, heralded by Mayor Rahm Emanuel as a model for the city, say the fees offset the cost of running the detention program and help keep small problems from becoming big ones. Critics say Noble is nickel-and-diming its mostly low-income students over insignificant, made-up infractions that force out kids administrators don't want.

"We think this just goes over the line ... fining someone for having their shoelaces untied (or) a button unbuttoned goes to harassment, not discipline," said Julie Woestehoff, executive director of the Chicago advocacy group Parents United for Responsible Education, which staged protests last week over the policy after Woestehoff said she was approached by an upset parent

Students at Noble schools receive demerits for various infractions — four for having a cellphone or one for untied shoelaces. Four demerits within a two-week period earn them a detention and $5 fine. Students who get 12 detentions in a year must attend a summer behavior class that costs $140.

Superintendent Michael Milkie said the policy teaches the kids — overwhelmingly poor, minority and often hoping to be the first in their families to attend college — to follow rules and produces in a structured learning environment. He points to the network's average ACT score of 20.3, which is higher than at the city's other non-selective public schools, and says more than 90 percent of Noble graduates enroll in college.

While fights can be an almost daily occurrence in some urban high schools, Milkie says there's only about one a year on each Noble campus.

By "sweating the small stuff ... we don't have issues with the big stuff," he said.

Milkie said the fines also help defray the cost of administering after-school detention and the salary of the network's dean of discipline, which otherwise would divert money intended for education.

But Donna Moore said the district is manufacturing problems that lead to unproductive badgering of students, including her 16-year-old son, who had to repeat ninth grade at Noble's Gary Comer College Prep after racking up 33 detentions and several suspensions.

"It was nothing egregious, but just that the little things added up: a shirt unbuttoned, shoes not tied, not tracking the teacher with his eyes," said Moore, adding that her son has an attention disorder. "It's not normal to treat a young adult as a 2-year-old ... kids internalize that."

Woestehoff and Moore said some families have removed their children from Noble schools because they couldn't keep paying the fees, though Moore said her biggest complaint is the infractions. Milkie said Noble sets up payment plans and on rare occasions waives the fees, and students never would be held back a grade solely because they couldn't pay.

Even so, Matthew Mayer, a professor in the graduate school of education at Rutgers University, said a monetary fine is "highly inappropriate" because it likely has no bearing on students' academic performance and disproportionately hurts poor families.

"It's almost medieval in nature. It's a form a financial torture, for lack of a better term," Mayer said.

Emanuel defended the school, saying it gets "incredible" results and parents don't have to send their children there. Charter schools are exempt from most district policies.

Parent Tammy O'Neal said her two daughters are excelling at Noble's Muchin College Prep, and only one ever got detention, for not wearing a belt.

"If a kid is prone to getting in trouble and not taking school seriously, then (the fines are) a steep slope," she said. "But why don't you tell your kid to straighten up?"

Chadie Morris, 16, a sophomore at Noble Street College Prep, carries a 3.8 grade-point average at Noble Street College Prep, but figures she has paid $45 already this year for such things as talking in class.

"Sometimes it can be about the littlest things and you can still get demerits," she said. "Demerits are horrible; detentions are horrible."

But the aspiring lawyer, who struggled with absences until her adviser and principal persuaded her to come back, looks forward to attending a one-week summer college program.

Other charter school operators in Chicago and elsewhere said they don't fine students but respect Noble's academic success and its right to adopt its own discipline policy.

Tim King, CEO of Urban Prep Academies, which operates three high schools for boys in some of Chicago's toughest and poorest neighborhoods, said he believes "very firmly in a more therapeutic or restorative approach vs. punitive toward student conduct."

Every student in Urban Prep's first two graduating classes was accepted to a college or university.

At Knowledge is Power Program, a network of 109 charter schools in 20 states and the District of Columbia, middle school students are rewarded for good behavior with a weekly incentive "paycheck" — fake money that can be redeemed at the school store or used to defray the cost of field trip, spokesman Steve Mancini said. The system is phased out by high school because it's no longer needed.

Milkie, though, doesn't plan to change a thing.

"It's a beautiful system," he said. "I don't want to brag, but it is. It's why the kids are so successful."

© 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Tammy Webber's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: none
  • Regions: United States , Chicago
  • Public Discussion (67)
Mike-1499840

I never thought I would ever support Rahm Emanual...But I am solidly behind him on this one.

  • 7 votes
#1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:10 PM EST
Arieus

They collected 190k in fees last year. What and where does the money go to?

Teachers are already paid a salary to do their jobs, and if a kid breaks a rule, stick them in the corner of the room in the class or give them detention

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:21 PM EST
infrared

The man is a joke. An embarrassment to Chicago.

  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:26 PM EST
Mike-1499840

The man is a joke. An embarrassment to Chicago.

Maybe so...but even a stopped clock (analog) is correct twice a day.

  • 3 votes
#1.3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:33 PM EST
AJ in Missouri

I think the concept is okay, but I think there should be some incentive as well with punishments. Since they're getting so much money from this system. Have something in place, 3.5GPA with 0-5 max fines results in free lunch for the next semester or something?

  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:56 PM EST
Z1P2

Schools that some can't afford to attend should be private schools instead of public ones.

Also, having set standard fines means that rich kids will just ignore the rules while poor kids get their backs broken by the smallest infractions... pretty much just like the rest of life.

Perhaps it would be a better idea to have a sliding scale for the fines based on the wealth, or lack thereof of the family.

  • 3 votes
#1.5 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:22 PM EST
Mike-1499840

Also, having set standard fines means that rich kids will just ignore the rules while poor kids get their backs broken by the smallest infractions... pretty much just like the rest of life.

Any evidence that this is occurring at this school?

  • 2 votes
#1.6 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:52 PM EST
MartyMoose

Why is this even a controversy? If you don't like the rules, go to a different school. Problem solved.

Don't like the fines? Follow the rules. Another problem solved!

  • 4 votes
#1.7 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:17 PM EST
Santino42

Also, having set standard fines means that rich kids will just ignore the rules while poor kids get their backs broken by the smallest infractions

There are no rich kids going to any CPS. Families that have enough money (and many scrap by just for their kids) send their kids to private school in the city.

This rule is an abuse of power and ridiculous. Just like Rahm's stance on teachers.

    #1.8 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:10 PM EST
    polearch

    This i a really good idea as it teaches young people that there is consequences to what they do. A lot of young people do not get that at home. It is pretty hard to argue with there success.

    • 2 votes
    #1.9 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:12 PM EST
    spg64-1292127

    Everyone makes mistakes, I hope they have a program in place to deal with kids that literally can't afford $5, some families can't.

    Further a tiered system maybe necessary if you have a student population that has a larger economic diversity.

    I have worked in some places where $5 fine would mean a skipped meal and others where a $5 fines would be laughed at.

    That said, I do think the system seems to be doing something correct the school's academic record speaks volumes!

    I am interested to see how long it is before more preschool and early elementary programs start adopting the Montessori method or at least portions of it! It seems that most of the Academic research on gifted and early education shows that the Montessori method is what is EXACTLY what is needed to build thinking students. And it is not a method that is cost prohibitive.

    • 1 vote
    #1.10 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:52 PM EST
    cannonballer

    We think this just goes over the line ... fining someone for having their shoelaces untied (or) a button unbuttoned goes to harassment, not discipline," said Julie Woestehoff,

    If you are disclipined your shoes will be tied and all your buttons will be buttoned, really pretty simple.

    Also, having set standard fines means that rich kids will just ignore the rules while poor kids get their backs broken by the smallest infractions... pretty much just like the rest of life.

    It doesn't cost anything to follow the rules in school, school is the first, full time job, follow the rules there and maybe it wont be such a disaster when you start your second full time job.

      #1.11 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:25 PM EST
      1devon

      So you've never had a shoelace come untied or missed a button? Unreal. And completely unbelievable.

      • 1 vote
      #1.12 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:54 PM EST
      cannonballer

      1devon

      So you've never had a shoelace come untied or missed a button? Unreal. And completely unbelievable.

      So looking down to check your shoes and shirt buttons is too much on the labor side? So be it.

        #1.13 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:12 PM EST
        1devon

        No, but charging kids for a shoelace that comes untied during their day is straight up extortion. Ridiculous. Good that you never have a lace come untied or a button slip. The humans on the planet, however, don't normally see these things as needing 'fining'. Nothing like smaller government.

        • 1 vote
        #1.14 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:27 PM EST
        MartyMoose

        No, but charging kids for a shoelace that comes untied during their day is straight up extortion.

        Wear shoes with velcro. Double-knot your laces. It's just not that tough a rule.

        They probably had a problem with kids intentionally disrupting class by pretending they needed to tie their shoes. A few bad apples spoil it for everyone.

          #1.15 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:03 PM EST
          1devon

          Oh please. Justifying fines for a shoelace that comes undone by saying it's a disruption is inane. I don't have a huge problem for TRUE infractions, but extortion is extortion.

          • 2 votes
          #1.16 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:16 PM EST
          MartyMoose

          Because teenagers never fake stuff.

            #1.17 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:32 AM EST
            1devon

            I was a teen and I have three kids. I don't know any teens who would think someone tying a shoe was disruptive, and I've never had a kid 'fake' an untied lace. ??????????????? I know I've seen people tie shoes before, but I can't ever remember a time in my life when I felt it was distracting. Strange.

            • 1 vote
            #1.18 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:05 PM EST
            spg64-1292127

            I must agree with 1devon on this. I understand a need for order within an educational system, however what was it $190,000 in fines last year. That seems rather high!

            Given the amount of money raised in fines hearing that untied shoe laces are on the list for a $5 fine seems rather absurd to me.

            I must admit my son would have cost us $100s in untied shoe fines when he was in first and second grade. He wandered about in a fog most of the time. Yet he also tested at a 9th grade level in the science and Math Sections of the California Standardized in first grade. Just because someones shirt tails are out does not make them a disruptive influence.

            Most of the Academics I know tend to still walk around with their shirt tails out and shoes untied. It is these disheveled pointed headed liberals that are America's brain trust! I am glad we did not have a system in place back when we were in school that would have weeded out these future Scientist and Mathematicians.

            • 2 votes
            #1.19 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:20 PM EST
            1devon

            Charging a child $5.00 when a shoelace comes untied or a button is missed, is extortion. There's no other word for it. It's outrageous.

            • 3 votes
            #1.20 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:55 PM EST
            Reply
            Davy-755715

            Fines for cell phones I can go along with, but a shirt unbuttoned, shoes not tied, not tracking the teacher with his eyes? C'mon, guys; sounds like milking the concept, something you learned from speed traps or "fast yellow" cameras.

            • 9 votes
            Reply#2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:14 PM EST
            Mike-1499840

            it's all the little stuff....It's an old adage....take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves. SOMETHING this school is doing appears to be working. Why would you want to screw with it? Your philosophy doesn't appear to be working...how about we continue to do what does?

            • 8 votes
            #2.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:19 PM EST
            Lee B

            Fascism produces results desired by those in control, does that mean we should try it?

            Those small things do border on harassment. Scaring kids into doing well, isn't the same as getting them to want to do well.

            • 6 votes
            #2.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:06 PM EST
            Mike-1499840

            Fascism produces results desired by those in control, does that mean we should try it?

            No it doesn't. And, no we shouldn't...that would fall under the heading of doing the same thing tomorrow, that don't work today...a common liberal tendency.

            • 2 votes
            #2.3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:43 PM EST
            easydoesit

            While there's nothing wrong with keeping shoes tied and shirts tucked, I'm always curious about 'charter' schools, and their respective reasons for being in the news...

            Because charter schools are funded with public dollars, and draining off those dollars from the public schools, they are not allowed to charge tuition, but can take 'donations'. So, who does get the 190K these kids paid?

            Don't even get me started on school vouchers and what that joke of a policy is doing to the public schools, and the success of our children who attend them.

            • 1 vote
            #2.4 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:27 PM EST
            Lee B

            No it doesn't. And, no we shouldn't...that would fall under the heading of doing the same thing tomorrow, that don't work today...a common liberal tendency.

            So you're saying, in a fascist society, people in control don't get what they want?

            hahahahahaha. ok...

            • 3 votes
            #2.5 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:56 PM EST
            RebootIt

            "fining someone for having their shoelaces untied (or) a button unbuttoned goes to harassment, not discipline,"

            Sounds like the military except you pay in cash not pushups. Is this the direction we want to go in 2012?

            • 1 vote
            #2.6 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:33 PM EST
            Davy-755715

            SOMETHING this school is doing appears to be working.

            And that SOMETHING would appear to be, forcing the undesirables out of their noble experiment.

            There are problems in the schools, no doubt about that, but I can't automatically endorse every concept some "experts" roll out.

            • 2 votes
            #2.7 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:26 AM EST
            Reply
            NitroNate

            i like this idea. money talks and teaches kids a little bit about the real world. i think they should institute a flip side, PAY the kids that are exemplary with the money that comes out of the pockets of the kids that aren't. a little healthy real world competition never hurt anyone.

            • 2 votes
            Reply#3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:23 PM EST
            Mariyam

            Personally, I'd rather see a tool that gets them so motivated that they willingly comply with the rules in anticipation of some reward, even if the reward is a commendation for a job well done.

            I worry that punitive systems for trivial matters can cause permanent or long lasting damage. I also agree with the statement made below - it does sound like a "revenue generatng program"

            Davy-755715

            Fines for cell phones I can go along with, but a shirt unbuttoned, shoes not tied, not tracking the teacher with his eyes? C'mon, guys; sounds like milking the concept, something you learned from speed traps or "fast yellow" cameras

            • 2 votes
            Reply#4 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:27 PM EST
            weRdoomed

            Personally, I'd rather see a tool that gets them so motivated that they willingly comply with the rules

            They did. This country is all about money. It is what everyone wants and no one wants to part with. It is the greatest motivator in the world.

            These kids will not be permanently damaged -- they will be well-taught capitalists...and probably very successful ones.

            • 3 votes
            #4.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:32 PM EST
            NitroNate

            the only reward for good grades was the idea that you'd somehow be better off when you finally graduated college. it never paid off in any way in the short term other than making my parents happy. for many, that's a pretty pathetic motivator.

            i can only imagine how i'd feel if i got an "A" for top notch performance at work. where's my raise? my bonus? you have to build in short term incentives to keep people motivated and happy.

              #4.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:38 PM EST
              Reply
              janice22

              What a great example of teaching responsibility and self-control. I have been frustrated with my nearly grown daughter for not remembering to turn off lights when she left the house. So a few weeks ago I told her she would have to pay $5 for every light I found left on when I came home. So far I've noticed a definite improvement.

              "We think this just goes over the line ... fining someone for having their shoelaces untied (or) a button unbuttoned goes to harassment, not discipline," said Julie Woestehoff,

              Somebody needs to stuff a sock in her mouth...

              • 4 votes
              Reply#5 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:29 PM EST
              Mike-1499840

              I worry that punitive systems for trivial matters can cause permanent or long lasting damage.

              True....That thought process is the major reason kids are out of control now....that and the "everyone is a winner," BS.

              • 3 votes
              #5.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:31 PM EST
              Mariyam

              "We think this just goes over the line ... fining someone for having their shoelaces untied (or) a button unbuttoned goes to harassment, not discipline," said Julie Woestehoff,

              janice22

              Somebody needs to stuff a sock in her mouth...

              #5 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:29 PM PST

              Mike-1499840

              I worry that punitive systems for trivial matters can cause permanent or long lasting damage.

              True....That thought process is the major reason kids are out of control now....that and the "everyone is a winner," BS.

              triv·i·al

              [triv-ee-uhl] adjective

              1. of very little importance or value; insignificant: Don't bother me with trivial matters.

              2. commonplace; ordinary.

              Also, if $5.00 to a person is the equivalent of the penny I throw in my change jar, then paying the fine for them is no big deal. That's why many of our corporations get away with violating the laws that were put into place to protect workers, consumers, etc. - the fines they pay are just chump change to them and part of the cost of doing business.

              I guess it was overlooked that the article mentioned other schools had instituted programs which were yielding excellent results without the cash penalties.

                #5.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:31 PM EST
                Reply
                janice22

                But Donna Moore said the district is manufacturing problems that lead to unproductive badgering of students, including her 16-year-old son, who had to repeat ninth grade at Noble's Gary Comer College Prep after racking up 33 detentions and several suspensions.

                So where was she when this was happening? Did she not care enough about her son to try to help him. Could she do nothing but sit back and blame the school for attempting to motivate her son where she had obviously failed. What a sad excuse for a mother.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#6 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:34 PM EST
                Beebobby

                If this had been a GOTP idea, the whiners would find something else to cry about. If it's a dem idea and it works, it must be bad.

                  Reply#7 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:38 PM EST
                  janice22

                  I'm a conservative Republican and I say hurray. If Rahm Emmanuel had more ideas like this I'd vote for him for president. Unfortunately, I think this is Rahm's only shining example in a pile of manure.

                    #7.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:42 PM EST
                    Mike-1499840

                    Bobby,

                    See my first post.

                      #7.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:45 PM EST
                      Reply
                      Chris-735081

                      For a kid who does well in school and never gets in trouble, I wouldn't recommend this kind of financial straight jacket treatment.

                      For a kid that gets into trouble all the time, I think this is as good a place to start as any.

                      Discipline is a hard thing to come by for some kids. You can't beat it into them, buy you might be able to motivate them with selfishness and small fines.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#8 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:49 PM EST
                      1devon

                      At some point this crosses the line and becomes straight up extortion. Cell phone fine? Sure. Disrupting class? Sure. A button not buttoned or a shoe lace coming untied? I don't think so.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#9 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:24 PM EST
                      Mariyam

                      1devon

                      At some point this crosses the line and becomes straight up extortion. Cell phone fine? Sure. Disrupting class? Sure. A button not buttoned or a shoe lace coming untied? I don't think so.

                      LOL, I'm so glad someone else said it so I wouldn't have too.

                      In our country, the punishment is supposed to fit the crime and these aren't even crimes.

                      $190,000 / $5 = 38,000 "infractions" or an average of 3, 800 infractions per each of the 10 schools per year.

                      I wonder if they made the kids take home list of prohibited acts and made the student and parent sign and agree to abide by it and if it had a provision for income hardship.

                      School is hard enough without the added burden of the student being told by the parent(s), that they can't forget and screw up by not buttoning their sweater right because the family can't afford these fines.

                      • 1 vote
                      #9.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:36 PM EST
                      weRdoomed

                      In our country, the punishment is supposed to fit the crime. These aren't even crimes!

                      It's a rule of the school - there are uniforms.

                      When you enter the workforce, if your job has a uniform, you have to wear it the way your employer tells you to or else you are subject to consequences. Sounds like a real life lesson to me.

                      What is okay discipline for you people? Can't paddle them, can't suspend them, can't yell at them, can't fine them...

                      How are teachers supposed to have any control over their students when parents are so permissive?

                      • 1 vote
                      #9.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:45 PM EST
                      1devon

                      You would BEAT a child over a missed button? You do know that children in America are still routinely tortured in schools, right? And those very schools tend to be our WORST performing districts.

                      If they're going to fine the kids if a shirt comes loose or shoelace comes untied, they need to do so with the teachers as well.

                      Three out of three of my children earned academic scholarships, one was a Presidential Scholar Award winner...and we never laid a hand on them. Discipline is teaching and guiding, not child torture.

                      • 1 vote
                      #9.3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:26 PM EST
                      Reply
                      RobPlumley

                      Being that I don't have any data - what the school conditions were prior to this policy - I can't really comment intelligently, other than "moderation" is always the best policy.

                      Couldn't most of the smaller infractions be dealth with in this manner?

                      Son, your shoe laces are untied, stop and tie them. You want to look good don't you. Then carry on. Look presentable.

                      Young lady, the gum, and don't chew in class - it's distracting.

                      Sir, you can pick up your cell phone at the principal's office before you catch your bus, and please, there is no reason to have a phone during school. We have phones here that you can request to use. As for your cell-phone, keep it in your locker or bag.

                      The idea is to be direct and specific to students, and don't take crap, but most importantly, treat them with respect, and respect you will get back. Those that blantantly do misdeeds, then perhaps a fine would be justified.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#10 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:29 PM EST
                      1devon

                      treat them with respect, and respect you will get back.

                      Agreed. This was the parenting method we chose and the results were great. I can't see handing the school money because my kid's shoelace came untied. Don't think so.

                      • 1 vote
                      #10.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:13 PM EST
                      ScreamingForVengeance

                      treat them with respect, and respect you will get back.

                      Now that one I will debate.

                      Treat them with to much kindness and respect and what you get 3/4 of the time is total disrespect in return. And the reason why is simple.

                      They take kindness and respect as a weakness 1/2 the time.

                      Period.

                        #10.2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:58 AM EST
                        1devon

                        How SAD. I hope you don't have kids. Growing up, my parents talked to us with the same respect they would an adult. We did the same with our kids. If you set the bar high and parent in a mature and respectful way, the kids just ...follow.

                        If you think treating kids with kindness and respect is a sign of weakness, I feel for you AND your kids.

                        • 1 vote
                        #10.3 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:55 AM EST
                        ScreamingForVengeance

                        I think your are misunderstanding me.

                        Of course you need to treat them with respect. Thats just...common decency.

                        However, you must also make sure they understand they'll get a foot up their ass if they cross the line. To many children in this day and age think their poop smells like roses. I do not know how old you are or if you have any teenage children right now, but I do know this.

                        Today's 13-19 year olds are not the one's you remember so fondly from your youth. Although your scenerio sounds sweet in theory, heres reality for you. Many many children are living in Single Parent Homes where the parent is working 12-18 Hour Days.

                        In other words, the Parent isn't really raising the child. The CPU is. The TV is. Friends are. Thats reality -unfortunately- in our society today.

                        The parents are simply to tired. They give in to every demand because it's the path of least resistance. And what does that cause?

                        A spoiled disrespectful little @!$%#.

                        So yes. I agree that you must treat your children with respect. Of course. For a multitude of reasons, it's just the right way to be. However, that respect and trust must be kept by behavior and attitude.

                        Either way, to each their own.....

                          #10.4 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:35 AM EST
                          1devon

                          Teens today are making far better choices than their parents did. Drinking, drug use and sexual activity are all down. Look it up. The numbers are not only down, but down dramatically.

                          We never once hit our kids. We led by example. Three out of three earned academic scholarships and one was a Presidential Scholar Award winner. I didn't misunderstand you. Not at all.

                          • 1 vote
                          #10.5 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:40 AM EST
                          Reply
                          Brad-436809

                          For some kids, if there is no consequence for bad behavior, they continue the bad behavior. Some say the fines are draconian, but think about it, when these kids are adults, they will be expected to dress a certain way for the job and look professional, be expected to show up on time and be prepared for the day's job, be expected to stay off the cell phone unless it's related to the job. This is called self discipline, not punishment. The fact that these kids have higher GPA's and the majority are going to college attest to the fact the program is working.

                            Reply#11 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:19 PM EST
                            Mariyam

                            But we're not discussing "bad" behavior, we discussing monetary fines for forgetfulness, oversight (shoes, buttons, cell phone rings during class because the student forgot to turn it off), etc.

                            I don't think anyone is advocating not punishing bad or disruptive behavior during class (taking or making calls while in class for example) but what's up with the "not tracking the teacher with their eyes"

                            I think the difference I see is between individuals who are self-motivating and individuals who are motivated because they fear punishment for basically nonsensical violations. And the concept of punishing everyone in an attempt to get to the few malcontents in the group.

                            Why would a school be teaching fear instead of motivating children to feel good about themselves by demonstrating to them all that they can be and achieve. If you don't treat your children that way, why would you want or allow someone else to treat them that way?

                            • 2 votes
                            #11.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:14 PM EST
                            Brad-436809

                            @Mariyam- I don't see what the school is doing as punishment, it's disciplining students, thus teaching them the skill of self discipline and the expectation that to belong to a group, you must follow the rules, which in this case, are school rules. Better to learn rules that lead to a life as a productive adult, than one who learns the rules of gangs and life on the streets.

                              #11.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:03 PM EST
                              Santino42

                              Better to learn rules that lead to a life as a productive adult, than one who learns the rules of gangs and life on the streets.

                              You think charging poverty stricken kids' families will help them stay off the streets? Did you grow up in Chicago?

                              • 3 votes
                              #11.3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:10 PM EST
                              Brad-436809

                              You think charging poverty stricken kids' families will help them stay off the streets? Did you grow up in Chicago?

                              Did you read the article? The schools mentioned are in Chicago.

                              Superintendent Michael Milkie said the policy teaches the kids — overwhelmingly poor, minority and often hoping to be the first in their families to attend college — to follow rules and produces in a structured learning environment. He points to the network's average ACT score of 20.3, which is higher than at the city's other non-selective public schools, and says more than 90 percent of Noble graduates enroll in college.

                                #11.4 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:53 PM EST
                                Santino42

                                Did you read the article?

                                Yes.

                                The schools mentioned are in Chicago.

                                No @!$%#. Now would you like to answer the two questions I asked?

                                  #11.5 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:43 AM EST
                                  Mariyam

                                  Brad-436809

                                  @Mariyam- I don't see what the school is doing as punishment, it's disciplining students, thus teaching them the skill of self discipline and the expectation that to belong to a group, you must follow the rules, which in this case, are school rules. Better to learn rules that lead to a life as a productive adult, than one who learns the rules of gangs and life on the streets.

                                  They could do the same thing without the parents shelling out cold hard cash - I'm just guessing here but if they had to do extra physical education - like the military requires (push ups) or running laps or having to stay late clean out the toilets and lockers - stuff like that (but this for intentional violations, not the untie shoe or unbuttoned shirt. I kind of think wearing them out physically would motivate them more than just someone dinging mom & pops wallets. The minute they decide "no more pushups, no laps, no more cleaning the latrine, they've be happy to go back to learning and studying and will probably excell at it from that point on.

                                    #11.6 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:01 AM EST
                                    Reply
                                    trddddDeleted
                                    Richard-NC

                                    Bad behavior taxes.

                                      Reply#13 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:45 PM EST
                                      newdayDAWNING...RETURNED

                                      Yep, but there can be the day when a teacher accuses your children (high school age) of chewing snuff when what he was really doing was putting his retainer in his mouth. What then?

                                      Happened to my kid.

                                      Oh, and when he was called in by the principal, he did not have chewing tobacco, no signs that he ever had, but he did have the retainer and case.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      Reply#14 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:59 PM EST
                                      markpup

                                      I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't like this.

                                      There's 3 reasons. First, it masks a lack of ability on the part of teachers and administrators to inspire kids to better levels of work.

                                      Second, it's always my experience when anyone has to live in a personal environment with a lot of rules, the application of those rules is generally unjust and arbitrary.

                                      Third, for minority students this level of rules has a stigma attached - as if to say if you're poor or a minority, you need a lot shorter leash than a normal kid. Really?

                                      This is a long way from saying kids in school shouldn't have rules - but there's a fine line between providing enough structure to make sure kids are learning in an orderly environment and allowing them to be individuals with unique needs all treated fairly with the same set of guidelines. This school is way over the line on rules.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#15 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:35 PM EST
                                      Santino42

                                      First, it masks a lack of ability on the part of teachers and administrators to inspire kids to better levels of work.

                                      I have a stinking suspicion that all the teachers at this school are not on board with this policy - just a guess.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #15.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:38 PM EST
                                      1devon

                                      Totally agree, Markup. I could (maybe) see fines for actual infractions, but a missed button? A shoelace that comes untied. EXTORTION.

                                      The teachers I respected were the ones who inspired.

                                      • 3 votes
                                      #15.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:42 PM EST
                                      markpup

                                      Santino42 - I agree!! They're either not on board or they're way too on board. There's always a few rotten apples that enjoy this kind of little power trip.

                                      1devon - yes when I remember my high school years, my best 3 teachers were 90% of what I got out of going and made it more than worthwhile. They made me want to dig for more. No amount of khaki pants and demerits would have changed that one bit.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #15.3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:50 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      ScreamingForVengeance

                                      They wouldn't get a penny from me or my kids. The only thing they would get is one massive lawsuit.....

                                      • 1 vote
                                      Reply#16 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:19 PM EST
                                      markpup

                                      I'm sure the parents have to sign a zillion forms agreeing to this and that - if you agree by contract to pay a fine if your kid does something they're covered.

                                      To me it's a bad choice for a minority kid to either go to a really bad unsafe unmotivated public school or get shoved into a school where rules are king and creativity is stifled. If you're an unusually smart and creative kid and sharp, either way would really suck.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #16.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:25 PM EST
                                      ScreamingForVengeance

                                      And any parent who signs such a deal is stupid.

                                      Look, this is Chicago we're talking about here. The freakin' Boy Scouts in Chicago are probably a Secret Mafia Family or something. They cant even spell honest in Chicago if their any kind of Government Official.

                                      As somebody up above said, this is ripe for theft or corruption. Where is the money at? Where does it go? Who decides what it's spent on? And secondly, why do the TEACHERS not have to live under the same threat or fear?

                                      If it's good for the goose, than it has to be good fo the gander. If kids have to pay, than the Teachers should too.

                                      I'm just sayin'.....

                                        #16.2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:08 AM EST
                                        Reply
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