Would 'Joe the plumber' fare better under a John McCain or Barack Obama presidency?

You're clearly an idiot lol.  It's plumbing, not plumming.

What gives you the right to call someone an idiot and then laugh at them?  I guess they taught you that behavior at the church you attend.

Hey Joe, and who gave you the right to ASSume that this person learned this at the church they attend. Maybe they don't go to church and maybe you should.

Nobama

it doesn't matter whether kelley spelled right or not...we get it!....plus McSenile can't

think...and Joe the Plumber is a Shill.... just like Palin is for McSenile....he wants to own

his own Plumbing busniness and does't have a license and is complaining.....what a

putz...McSenile tried to make points from a NOBODY  because he had no agenda of

his own....he suffers from....... RICH DADDY QUOTA SYNDROME....and no brains of his own

Hey firefly maybe you shouldn't ASSume anything.  It is the right wind religious nut jobs that usually make this insidious comments.  He could have made his point without being condescending.  Maybe you ASSumed wrong when you stated that I need to go to church.  The one I attend is accepting of people instead of calling them names, like idiot and try to call someone a name by capitalizing the ASS is Assume.

Nobama,

Like is said, "Joe the plummer' is a plant, he's not real. He doesn't own that plumbing business he's talking about. He'a just as fake as you are! And I'm far from an idiot, look who you want to be POTUS, McCain. Be for real. Palin, OMG help us. That tells me a lot about you.

So.... Let me get this straight.....

It is Joe, and the Owner, that make up the company.....and Joe, doesn't have a plumbing license...

Unless he is the secretary, or running for parts, where I live he would need a license to do plumbing....

Moving on.... Now let's get this straight again.......

This is a two man plumbing company.... and Joe doesn't have a license, and the Owner makes OVER $250,000 a year in PROFIT??????

Is the owner one of the Sopranos?

This is starting to look like Lipstick, on a Plumber.........

Wrong.  But you're right about one things: the Italians are involved, and the owner of the Plumbing Company is Princess Toadstool.

McCain never said Joe DID own a PLUMBING company- he said he wanted to buy the company he WORKED for now!!

Clean the potatos out of your ears, and listen.  In the state he works in, you don't need a license to work FOR someone's company UNDER their license. LISTEN, READ and LEARN.

This is the problem with Obama followers, you expect to be hand-fed everything. Stand up for yourselves. Depend on yourselves, wipe your own butts, fix your own oatmeal, put yourselves to bed, clean up your own messes, and realize that you don't need 'big brother' to do everything or even most things for you.

Congratulations Joe Sixpack !!! Ahem I mean  . Its nice to see you can spell. So much for your choice of candidate.

Nobama it sounds like you have a little of that John McCain anger thing going on......

Nobama is always on Newsweek spreading her racist agenda.  Vote Obama.  Lets break the racial hurt in this great Country.

Suite Judy-Your answer would carry more weight if you read the article. Neither Joe or the guy he works for are licensed plumbers in Lucas County.

Suite Judy

1. Neither Joe or his boss have a plumber's license which is required where he lives.

2. He voted in the republican primary

3. By the time this is over I am sure he will have wished he said nothing. The companies taxes will be checked to see if it even came close to making 250K (which I doubt) because he is already backpedaling on his statement and saying what if it was 100K would Sen Obama decide he was making too much money

4. If you make over 250K then you should help this country

5. At least he and George Bush, Sen McCain all have one thing in common. On a daily basis they watch as things go down the toilet.

America is base on capitalism.  If I worked hard to make 250,000.00, I wouldn't just hand it out to poor people.  Let them work for it like I did.  I don't want the USA to become like Russia was

Suite Judy, perhaps you should check your ears for those potatos.  From the article "And the county Wurzelbacher and Newell live in, Lucas County, requires plumbers to have licenses, but neither is licensed there, said Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations, which handles plumber licenses in parts of the county outside Toledo."  So no he doesn't have a license, and yes he needs one.  

Wow, have to say this is the first time I have been called a religious nut!  lol  I don't go to any church, so leave religion out of this.  Religion has no place in politics.

Suite Judy,

"Clean the potatos out of your ears"??? Is this a common trait of McCain and his supporters, this personal attack crap?

Maybe you should read and learn:

1. As has been stated, poor old "Joe" does in fact need licenses (from his state, his county, and his municipality) to do what he's supposedly doing. His municipality is considering sanctions against him and his employer.
2. It's unlikely that a two-man plumbing company realizes $250,000 in annual income (as opposed to revenue), unless they're doing something more criminal than working without licenses. If it does, shouldn't Joe get a raise? And if it does, then it damn sure should pay higher taxes than the average working stiff. No wonder "Joe" wants to buy the company.
3. Income tax is on income, not revenue. Joe was talking about the company's alleged gross revenue. He - apparently - wildly overstated the company's revenue, and said nothing at all about the company's income (profits), of which he is probably unaware. Apparently, McCain's not the only one with a tenuous grasp on economics and taxation.

It's clear that, once again, McCain has seized an obscure, distorted example full of misinformation and innuendo and made it the centerpiece of his campaign in an attempt to shift focus away from the stark absence of his own answers to the really big questions. And all you can do to defend that is shoot at other people with the same sad personal attacks and insults your candidate has employed so consistently and so...ineffectively.

As far as your comment about Obama-followers (I assume that by this you mean people who don't think like you do) not being able to "wipe their own butts or fix their own oatmeal," well, all I can say is that in your ignorance you represent your chosen candidate very well. Deep thought appears to be a challenge for him, too.

Kansas_Lady,

So if you made $250,000 you wouldn't pay your taxes? We're not talking about handing money out the car window to homeless people. We're talking about paying taxes, and unfortunately, in this capitalist country you have to do that.

McCain used Ireland's 11% tax rate compared with the US rate of 35%. Problem with that is, the Irish don't have the decuctions and loopholes we offer our businesses, and when all is said and done the real rate here is something less than 10%. It's not a fair comparison.

You see something wrong with Exxon-Mobile paying their fair share and the working class getting a break. I don't. Neither do most of us, apparently.

The article clearly states that this man makes $40,000 annually.  He is nowhere in the area of being touched by Obama's plan to heighten taxes for higher income persons.  He put that question out there for the sole purpose of giving himself a reason in his head to vote for McCain.  Some people are scared of change and if that is the case so be it.  I am thinking about the future of my children and their education.  This country has been in so much trouble since Bush stepped into office and yet, people are still justifying the course this country has taken.  We have doubled our nation's debt load and the economy is becoming very scary to me.  I have lost almost half of my retirement fund in the past month and DO NOT wish to lose anymore.

Great story above.

Now it proves it: McCain is a lying sleazebag.  I don't blame Joe the Plumber though--I seen his look before, and he is just scared, and too scared to look for the truth.

When him and Obama spoke, he actually came around as a civilized and endearing person, in that he listened and took points that were given.  I'm not sure about the recent interviews to be honest.

What a TOOL McCain is to thrust this average Joe to light, and now he and his boss are going to get screwed over.  What a liar McCain is to tell us all that Joe would pay more taxes under Obama, when he DEFINITELY WILL PAY LESS.  Sleazebag McCain, say it with me now.

I work with corporate tax software and see hundreds of tax returns... from the enormous consolidations to the little "average Joe's"... and there is no way, absolutely... no way... that his privately owned small business would have >$250k in TAXABLE income.  McCain is distorting everything completely.  If he was a plant, then they screwed up majorly and forgot that TAXABLE income is line 28 of an 1120 Business Return... Not LINE ONE. ....... idiots.

And on a sidenote?  The huge companies get away with MURDER on their tax returns.  They practically write off the pens they sign the things with as a business expense.
Give us all a break.

So nobama and suite judy, (great names by the way)

Who's clearly the idiot now? and who was that who needs to clean the potatos out of their ears? I think it's you two, nobama and suite judy.

 I was being facetious in my first comment when I referred to joe whatshisname as "joe the plummer" not owning the "plumming" company he's was speaking of. He was imitating a concerned american citizen when he chose to fabricate his story. So he's was "joe the plummer" but now to everyone else he is Joe the liar.

McCain should have vetted Joe better before he sent him to the slaughter, like he did Sarah Palin. Oh yeah, McCain didn't vett her either. OOOPS!

Talk about being hand-fed judy, you ate up "joe the plummer's" lie so fast, that you didn't even wait to see what the whole truth was. You just bought it, hook line and sinker. who's the follower? Everytime McCain/Palin throws you people a bone, you take it.

The McCain/Palin camp has done nothing but lie lie lie. You will see someday or maybe you never will.

Obama/Biden '08

I see most everyone is missing the point... The question is(was) Will I have to pay more taxes if my company makes more than $250k per year under your(Obama's) tax plan?
If you use this in a general question: 'my company' meaning ANY COMPANY.
Obama even said yes, in so many words, but went on to say that he would have to look at the company's profile to see if it applied, but more than likely he would be paying less in taxes...
Just an objective view. I don't like some of the things on both parties, but I'm still voting McCain.

I'm thinking more and more that this is true. In any case, he's got problems galore now! lol

Suite Judy, way to generalize all the Obama supporters! Perhaps you should take the time to read about John McCain. He's never earned any of the positions he has gotten. His father's friends pulled strings for him so many times it's disgusting. He represents the very definition of nepotism and cronyism. His supposed heroism in the military is just another political scheme he's used to ride into congress and the senate. He cheated on his first wife and had no qualms about calling his second wife extremely vile names. He's a disgusting, power-hungry spoiled brat. When he was a child he used to hold his breath until he passed out if he didn't get his way. Is this really the sort of man you want with his finger on the nuclear button? If you don't believe me do some research on his background. 

suite judy:  you are incorrect.  In Ohio, you absolutely do need a license and also need to have served an apprenticeship to work as a plumber legally.  Gotta go now, my mommy is fixing me some oatmeal...mmm yummy

I think it is disgraceful that many of you think it is "ok" what is happening to Joe. It doesn't matter whether you are Republican or Democrat or no party at all. If we as citizens can not ask a question of a candidate without having our lives turned upside down and potentially destroyed, I am fearful of what this Country has come to. Whether Joe is a plumber, whether he pays taxes, whether he is anything any of you think is wrong, the point is he just asked a question of a candidate he wanted an answer to and has since been shredded by the public, press and Obama himself, the man that is suppose to represent the middle class. If that is the way Obama treats the middle class who differ with him, we are all in trouble. Tell me how that makes Joe better off with Obama?!

No one told Joe to open his piehole and try to put Obama on the spot with a lie.  Barack Obama is not criticizing him the media is reporting on the man who MCCAIN put out on the frontline without knowing all the facts about this individual.  I am noticing a common thread amongst Mccain supporters, they lie.  Trying to get a point across to a MCCAIN supporter is useless, they choose to uneducate themselves, be stupid and find every reason to not vote for the black guy (yes it's true), if John Kerry had Baracks enthusiasm and ideals, he would be president right now.

Never argue with a fool because...they are a fool.

So you are going to tell me that we as Americans have no right to ask our candidates questions. If you had asked a question of McCain in regards to his plans and got the same kind of treatment you would be up in arms about how badly you were being treated but because Joe questioned Obama he should not have opened his "piehole" as you put it. It is funny that Obama supporters seem to get mighty upset when McCain supporters speak the TRUTH and your only recourse is to resort to name calling.  I would say that is real intelligent and a great way to discuss the issues. You are sure doing a good job of helping me see I have made the right decision!

Really, are there so many stupid people in America?

The plan is to divert attention from the economy!!!!

You are all being sucked in by this cheap yet suptle manipulation!!

Screw Joe and all the other cheap blunt shots being fired!

Don't you realize that the whole country is being manipulated by experts with years of research and training, in tne black arts of propaganda?

Look what happened in Nazi Germany 70 years ago and understand one thing.

THEY HAVE HAD 70 YEARS TO PERFECT THEIR TECHNIQUES.

LET US PRAY TO WHATEVER GOD WE BELIEVE IN THAT IT IS NOT TOO LATE, BECAUSE IF THIS EVIL CLIQUE STEALS ONE MORE ELECTION, GOD HELP US ALL IT MIGHT BE OUR LAST CHANCE TO EVER CONTROL OUR OWN DESTINY.

Those that hide behind the banner of religion to do unholy things, to lie, to torture, to cheat, to brainwash, to slander, to be hypocritical to their supposed own faith are the servants either by design or intention of pure evil.

THEY ARE VAIN, ARROGANT, SELF SERVING, CYNICAL AND DEBASED.THEY HAPPILY TAKE GODS NAME IN VAIN AND BEND THE WORD OF GOD TO THEIR PURPOSE.

THEY BLEAT IN A GOAT LIKE FASHION ABOUT TAKING THE MORAL HIGH GROUND AS THEY TRY TO DRAG US INTO THE GUTTER.

So screw Joe and all the divesions that are thrown up before you!

Do something positive instead. Seize back your destiny!

THIS ELECTION IS MUCH BIGGER THAN YOU THINK!

OTHERWISE MISSION ACCOMPLISHED AND KISS THE AMERICAN DREAM AWAY.

OBAMA/BIDEN 08

{"commentId":3580279,"threadId":"390759","contentId":"2006731","authorDomain":"antonycosti"}

• !

- Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:00 AM EEST

Really, are there so many stupid people in America?

The plan is to divert attention from the economy!!!!

You are all being sucked in by this cheap yet suptle manipulation!!

Screw Joe and all the other cheap blunt shots being fired!

Don't you realize that the whole country is being manipulated by experts with years of research and training, in tne black arts of propaganda?

Look what happened in Nazi Germany 70 years ago and understand one thing.

THEY HAVE HAD 70 YEARS TO PERFECT THEIR TECHNIQUES.

LET US PRAY TO WHATEVER GOD WE BELIEVE IN THAT IT IS NOT TOO LATE, BECAUSE IF THIS EVIL CLIQUE STEALS ONE MORE ELECTION, GOD HELP US ALL IT MIGHT BE OUR LAST CHANCE TO EVER CONTROL OUR OWN DESTINY.

Those that hide behind the banner of religion to do unholy things, to lie, to torture, to cheat, to brainwash, to slander, to be hypocritical to their supposed own faith are the servants either by design or intention of pure evil.

THEY ARE VAIN, ARROGANT, SELF SERVING, CYNICAL AND DEBASED.THEY HAPPILY TAKE GODS NAME IN VAIN AND BEND THE WORD OF GOD TO THEIR PURPOSE.

THEY BLEAT IN A GOAT LIKE FASHION ABOUT TAKING THE MORAL HIGH GROUND AS THEY TRY TO DRAG US INTO THE GUTTER.

So screw Joe and all the divesions that are thrown up before you!

Do something positive instead. Seize back your destiny!

THIS ELECTION IS MUCH BIGGER THAN YOU THINK!

OTHERWISE MISSION ACCOMPLISHED AND KISS THE AMERICAN DREAM AWAY.

OBAMA/BIDEN 08

{"commentId":3580279,"threadId":"390759","contentId":"2006731","authorDomain":"antonycosti"}

• !

- Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:00 AM EEST

I also see that trend with most McCain supporters.... I don't think they have one good reason to vote for McCain.... The only reason they're voting for him is to keep Barack out, whether it's racism or not!  McCain has still not addressed what he is going to do to stop my retirement savings from decreasing in value!  What is the problem with you gung ho McCain supporters.... Take a good look at yourselves.

Suite Judy.  Maybe in the state he doesn't need a license, but in the city that he works in  he does.  That is according to the City Inspector.  He said yes in fact, anyone working for that company who does any plumbing, does in fact need a license.

"Would somebody explain to me how it is that you make poor people rich by making rich people poor?"

"Obama may as well be insulting every working person in this country when he asks, 'How many plumbers do you know making $250,000 a year? Huh, huh, huh?' The truth of this guy is coming out, and Joe the Plumber caused it."

"I always thought that college campi were supposed to be citadels for the free and open exchange of all ideas, and maybe in the past they were, but they're no longer that. They're just indoctrination centers for radical leftism now."

"So, basically, Jennifer Brunner, the secretary of state for Ohio, went to the Supreme Court and said, 'Let my people cheat,' and the United States Supreme Court said, 'So ordered; your people can cheat.' What a great country!"

"Obama's so cold, he can stand by and sign legislation supporting innocent babies who survive abortions being killed. That's cold, folks."

"Obama started whining about Fox News, saying if there weren't any Fox News, he'd be up three or four points higher. Not the way to look at it. If there were no CBS, NBC, MSNBC, ABC, CNN, New York Times, Washington Post, Reuters, AP Obama, or LA Times, there would be no Obama."

"You have to understand something here, Richard: Barack Obama is more afraid of somebody like me than he is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad."

"Of course McCain's fighting for plumbers; he's fighting for everybody. He has fought for everybody, Obama. Name one time you've fought for anybody -- other than a bunch of leftist radicals who want to overthrow the country as it exists?"

"Somehow because this guy Joe the Plumber doesn't really earn $250,000, he's a fraud -- but he never said he did. He said he thought the business did, and he wants to buy it and grow it. So here's guy, who, to the best of his ability is articulating the American dream, and the Democrat Party is trying to squash him like a cockroach."

"I've been on with Letterman, and you may as well be talking to a wall as there's literally no curiosity there."

RUSH

Wow, Rush is such an absolute moron.  How can anyone with a human brain listen to him?

rush do you tithe to a church do you give to charity the rich made the middle class hard working americans poor with overtaxing us  and giving AIg wealthy executives  tons of money so they can still have fun. We as christians and hard workers are the ones who suffer we sell our jobs to other countries and make things so expensive normal hard working people cant afford them and welfare reciepients get to live as good as  hard working americans. go to your church and pray or ethics lessons the do gooders and Greedy destroyed this country and put the  bill and responsibilty on the middle class to fix it its your job to fix the mess they created. Thats why we are America not a offshoot of England amymore. I dont care what religion people are our what their political party is this country is falling apart we need to fix it and you need to either be part of the solution or find a country you can be like you are and not help anymore.  Cause I am tired of the idiots who ruin my beautiful country  destroy the ehtocs and make all of us christians look like idiots racists and bigots and if I had more than 25 thpousand a year I give to many charities  timewise monitarily and help where i can on less than 70 grand a year I would pay the extra tax reward the American loyal worker and help where I could.

O mean over 250 thousand a year lol

Are you out of your mind? that is obsurd. He was scrutinized by the media and they tried to dicredit him. You liberals believe everything you here on the leftist media. They have crowned Obama already and written off McCaine. You should maybe get off the soap box and check out your canidate a little closer. You're taxes are going to go up no matter who gets into office. I would rather vote for a person that will keep us safe from terrorizism.

sea,

Did Bush keep us safe from terrorism? 911 happened on his watch and we've been at war with the wrong country since then. Bin Ladin is still out there. If you think terrorist are not going to try something just because John McCain is president, you think they won't try him, you better think again.

Having owned a small business in the past I want to say that earning $250,000 is not that much. You have an enormous amount of expenses. However, Obama does not say if he would be taxing gross income or net. It would also depend on if "Joe" incorporated or filed as a owner. I know when I started my business the capital gains taxes were high, they went down about a year after I opened and it made a BIG difference in what I could do. I actually hired 2 more people. Lower capital gains taxes definitely DOES increase jobs. Obama wants to raise these taxes in a bad economy.

That would be nice but it's not so. Anyone making $250,000 or more are in the higher tax bracket and all of that income is taxed that way, based on Obama's plan.

Bob, you don't seem to understand tax law. Ernie is exactly right.

Before bed each night, I pray for this problem of high taxes. Until then, I vote for the Left.

Potentially Bob could be correct.  Obama has not speeled out anything in his tax plan of how much or how the tax increases will be implemented.  Will there still be brackets of will you pay a certain rate if you earn fromn 175,000 to 250,000 that would be 18% and as soon as you hit 250,001 in earnings all earnings are taxed at 25%???  The rates being used to keep under 250,000 not being an increase, but a drastic increase if you earn just $1 over??
While not a likely plan, who knows since Obama has not chosen to tell us how much?? In which particular instances?? etc.  However, he has said anyone earning over $250,000 will get higer taxes.
Under also will since he wants to raise Corp taxes...corporations do NOT pay taxes - it is passed on to you in higher prices.  It is a hidden "fee" to you and one that politicians use to say they didn't raise "your" taxes even though you end up being the one who pays it.

i'm sorry Bob 64.... - if they are bringing home 250K a year they should pay higher taxes than someone that is bringing home 45K a year - makes sense to me - i don't mind paying my fair share but am damned tired of paying the top 5% wage earners fair share too just because i don't have or can't find or can't afford as many tax shelters

Do any of you realize the top %1 of wage earners account for 20% of all income, but also account for 40% of all taxes paid.  They are already paying a minimum of 2 times more than anyone else based on percentage of income and severly more percentage wise than the lowest 10% of wage earners that don't pay a penny in tax.
I earn no where near those figures, but fair is fair and having them pay your bills is NOT fair... no matter what some try to tell you. Or is it just going to be "I didn't raise YOUR taxes"

where are those stats coming from - Republican weekly? -

Your #s are correct, Tom, as long as you don't consider FICA and FUTA deductions to be taxes.  I believe that you would find that most people feel that those payroll deductions constitute a tax.  You will also find that the % of income spent on necessities like food and housing is much higher for the lowest 10% of wage earners.  Equality is not equity.  The top 1% is not in danger of being unable to get food on the table for their family because their taxable income over $250,000 attracts an additional 3% in income tax.  Surely you aren't suggesting higher taxes for the lowest 10% of wage earners ... Could you live on that net income?

The top 1% paid 24.31% of income.  The top 10% paid 18.49% of income and the bottom 50% paid 2.95% of income.  translate the % of income into actual dollars and those at the top are already paying their share and a huge portion of our share.  By the way, I'm a registered Democrat.  I'm just not buying into this "redistribution of wealth" through the Federal Govt.

The top 1% paid 24.31% of income.  The top 10% paid 18.49% of income and the bottom 50% paid 2.95% of income.  translate the % of income into actual dollars and those at the top are already paying their share and a huge portion of our share.  By the way, I'm a registered Democrat.  I'm just not buying into this "redistribution of wealth" through the Federal Govt.

Who does your taxes?????  You are sadly mistaken.

Don't know how many of you finished reading the article before posting but this is what Obama said about how the tax would work."Obama said that under his proposal taxes on any revenue from $250,000 on down would stay the same, but that amounts above that level would be subject to a 39 percent tax, instead of the current 36 percent rate."

So yes, if you make over $250,000, then only what is OVER $250,000 will be taxed at the higher rate.

Why is that fair? We already pay generously into the system

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it Warren Buffet who pointed out that he only paid 17.7% tax on the $46 million he made in 2006 and that his secretary who earned $60,000 paid 30% tax on her income. I may be utterly clueless but that does not seem "fair"  to me. I assume she is equally hard working and would like to keep her money.

Seriously, some of you talking about getting taxed upwards to $250,000 in Obama's plan are such tools.

How about this: under McCain's plan, he gets your first born.  See: I can just say whatever I want too!  Get it straight and stop making garbage up.

MK - You ask "why is that fair?" Is it really so hard to understand? Anyone who's earning more than $250,000 a year either never knew or has long forgotten what it's like to worry - really, justifiably worry - about where they will be living in a year, or what they'll be eating in a month, or how they will avoid bankruptcy indefinitely. I've been broke, and I've earned more than $150,000. I know both worlds. Those living on the edge deserve a break - they're the ones really earning your $250,000 for you. They will make you or break you. If they break, you break. Those who will never fear struggling won't even feel another 3% in taxes, because they'll find a way to take a loss and avoid it anyway. Even if they actually paid it they wouldn't feel it. You don't want to be a part of the solution because every one of those $250,000 is precious to you - just nowhere near as precious as a dollar is to someone on the edge. THAT'S what makes it fair.

Ernie,  as I understand it you are correct,  Any amount over $250,00 would be subject to a higher tax.

I went back, because I remembered something.  This past summer, Gallup put out a poll, McCain needs to hammer this.  It was June 27th, headline:  "Americans oppose income redistribution to fix economy," by 84-13%.  Hello, Joe the Plumber.  "When given a choice about how government should address the numerous economic difficulties facing today's consumer, Americans overwhelmingly, 84-13, prefer that government focus on improving overall economic conditions and the job situation in the country as opposed to taking steps to distribute wealth more evenly among Americans.  Eighty-four to 13.  This is back in June.  Now, granted, gas prices were very high in June.  The economy and the Wall Street mess had not yet come to the fore.  It was effervescing out there.  We hadn't gotten to the point where we're panicking and talking about bailouts.  And in another portion of the same -- this is Gallup, now -- "Half of Americans think government is doing too much, not too little."  This is the Joe the Plumber lesson.  
RUSH

Our national income tax policy is extremely confusing to the everage tax-payer.  Big corporations hire tax accountants to minipulate the system so they can get away with paying very little tax on real incomes over millions of dollars.  For my part, I favor a flat tax.  Perhaps 25% across the entire board of American tax-payers.

So what your saying is that under a McCain administration the homeless rate is going to increase to such a high rate that plumbers will not have any work?    I guess under Obama's plan anything you don't define as a home (apartments, offices, malls, etc..) will cease to exist or no longer require plumbing.  Get real people and stop trying to conjur up all of these sceanrios to skew the facts to the left.

the facts remain - under Republican regime - homelessness has increased - foreclosures have increased - you get real - we are losing

We don't have to skew the facts look around you. Last time I checked we've lost over 600,000 jobs under Bushco and defaults are at an all time high. There are far more ppor in this country than were in 2000. McCain wants to continue the same thing.

Under Clinton 21 million jobs were created, the budget was balanced and we had a surplus thats a fact.

So I would say 'yes' the homeless rate will increase under a McCain admin.

You will recall that we are currently under a Democrat ran congress. Yes? For the last several years.

And I am also sure that you're aware of certain housing bills that were passed in the late 90's that would allow people who had no business obtaining a mortgage - to obtain a mortgage. (That are currently now being foreclosed on because they shouldn't have been trusted to pay back a credit card debt, let alone a mortgage.)

Darvulia - Like most McCainiacs, you keep spouting this garbage about Democrats controlling Congress. Your wrong. Unless legislation passes by a veto proof majority(Bush has vetoed more legislation in the last two years than the first six), Republicans control Congress.

Enough of trying to blame democrats in the past 2 years for policies pushed through by republicans since 1994- and earlier if you want to include Reagan.  There is a flywheel effect here- we are reaping what republicans have sewn in the 6 years they controlled everything- the worst 6 years in the modern history of this Country.

What the democrats have done in the past 2 years is to simply prevent George Walker Bush from going on any more follies like Iraq.  If anything, they have been too soft on him- impeachment should have been left ON the table.  Otherwise, their hands have been tied.

Keep in mind the democratic majority is slight.  Lingering republicans have done everything possible to logjam legislation to help the middle class, and even if they could get throught that, the veto pen looms.

Yeah, congress has been pretty abysmal, but it's the remaining republicans that make it that way.  Be gone with the rest of them.

Pete, Exactly right. What about our friend and my husband's former employee who started his own business, which made $300,000 last year, with perfect credit, who couldn't get a construction loan for an addition to his house now that they have two children? (he has plenty of collateral, too) And how he and my husband, who are getting killed by declines in numbers of customers who can't afford them (landscape maintenance on large HOAs condo complexes,etc.), the price of gas and employee health insurance? My husband began his business in 1979 and this former employe was working for him when we met in 1989. It's been a comfortable, if not luxurious living for all of us till the last 5-6 years. Joe the Plumber has a job (without a license? What are Ohio's laws on that?). If he manages to buy that business, I hope he doesn't find that a lot of people find themselves quite able to fix their own problems without calling someone in. We have learned a lot about plumbing since our income began to decline.  

everyone seems to think Obama will really vote for a tax decrease for anyone not already on welfare.  He has never done this and never will.  Obama has always voted to raise taxes.  His lies are working on people who are blind to his past. 

At least if he wins the good people of Illinois will not be the only people being punished by his extremist viewpoints.  And we can all be glad that after 4 years we will never hear from him again.

Being one of those good people in Illinois, I can tell you that being a Senator, Mr Obama has NOTHING to do with higher taxes in our state. As far as his extremist views, I'll take them any day over someone like McCain who buries his head in the sand and has no cluse about what is happening in his backyard (Sarah Palin!).

I researched this claim that Obama has only ever voted to raise taxes when McCain said at the last debate that Obama voted 94 times over the past two years.  The FactChecker.org website which is non-partisian and goes after both candidate for misleading and false statements said that the numbers were inflated first of all.  Second, all of the tax increases that Obama actually voted for were against big business, mostly big oil in the face of the staggering profits those companies produced in the last several years as our price of gas went higher and higher.  FactChecker.org also stated that Obama did vote against continuing some of the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans that Bush had put into place so in essence, yes he voted for an increase.  Obama has never voted to raise taxes on anyone falling into that middle class bracket.  As a stay-at-home mom of two my husband and I work very hard to provide for our family on his income of $65K a year.  I don't mind paying my taxes, but I do not want to have to start paying taxes on the health benefits my husband's company provides like McCain wants to impose.  Everything costs money and whether you're Democrat or Republican, both candidates plans for the economy, healthcare, education, taxes, etc. will cost money.  Where do you want that money to come from?  I agree with Joe (the plumber), please read for yourselves the candidates' ideas...check out their websites, the ideas are all spelled out and decide for yourself. 

Im having a hard time understanding why ANYONE who does earn 250k + (more like 500k actually) is concerned about this - the last time I checked that was about 1-2% of the population. So why are all these guys who will never make that kind of money worried about how much these guys pay? I mean honestly, most of these guys pay little or nothing anyway ... their biggest conern is usually the AMT - so whats the problem - they might have to share some of their millions with the average Joe? This is what McCauin is calling "class warfare" - Rich people commit class warfare on the poor all the time ... REPOs, forclosures, crappy wages, benefits, et cetera .... and McCain wants to give THESE GUYS the tax cut NOT YOU - I mean how stupid do you have to be - what's next subsized country clubs and special loans for mansions!

Seriously!!  Hard to believe Americans have sunk so low as a people, to trade our futures for that man's charisma!

Not charisma, belief that someone really has our Country's best interests at heart and listening to the debate last night Obama is right on.  I want to thank Ernie and Pete for explaining a little of what Obama's tax plan entails.  People really do your research, Obama couldn't be more clear on how this will positively impact the entire Country.

We sunk ourselves eight years ago when Bush became president.  Why are all of you so afraid of a man who is intelligent?  Could it be that we have gotten use to our president that isn't the sharpest knife in the draw so we are afraid of a man who is intelligent?

i love how people can't see socialism in Obama. Seriously. And Liberals, please. Stop saying "oh well george bush this, george bush that". If that's the case you're making against McCain, are we republicans supposed to say "oh, well Jimmy Carter was democrat so I can't vote for Obama". You are idiots. I bet all these people that say they agree with Obama's tax break are either 1. Rich kids whose parents made them a lot of money. 2. College Students at UC Berekely. or 3. Welfare losers. Work for a living, have 1/2 your check taken for taxes, then vote.

Can't Wait!

Kelly should clarify whose best interests.  If you are an infant Obama has voted to have you killed (infanticide)?  The only interest he worries about is his own.

I'm neither 1, 2 or 3 but feel that since John McCain has voted with George Bush 90% of the time we can be assured he shares similar views on how to tackle these issues.  And from what the past month has uncovered (not to mention a war longer than WW II), we've seen the destructiveness of some of their decisions and should consider that very seriously.

This is funny to me. We went through eight years of an Republican President in which I supported at the beginning and now this country is in a crisis, but it's not George W. fault, it's not Trickle Down Economics's fault.  George W. Bush has a 20 something% approval rating and its time for change! It baffles me that Republicans get angry violent mad when their candidates is loosing.  Oh yeah Nobama, I have a Job. I am a school teacher and I will be MUCH better off under Obama. Oh wait you support McCain's outrageous comments to get rid of teacher accreditation. If someone makes a 1/4 million a year they can afford to have their taxes raised and still live high on the hog. Typical Republican stance: protect the rich and leave the poor & middle class out to dry.

Do some research people.

...and a vote for McNasty is a vote for poverty.

What's so wrong with socialism anyway? "It takes a village to raise a child". We need to stop being greedy @!$%#s and start taking care of eachother. I wish I was wealthy so I could set an example of helping those less fortunate. The middle class/working class are the ones driving this economy. If you let us slip through the cracks then who's going to be keeping the wealthy on top? Without the middle class we don't have consumers, our economy is broken.

When you say socialism do you mean like the government bailing out wall street or buying into banks or bailing out GM or Chrysler or other businesses.....because buddy we are already there under your miniscule leader "W"....now there is a man with a winning record....bankrupt his companies and his country.... and Grand Pa senile John McCain will be more of the same..... and that crack pot running mate...."How are we going to beat that @!$%#" to quote John McCain... sorry he was talking about Hillary not his trophy VP to  go with his trophy wife....I'm still undecided on who I am going to vote for but I sure do know who I am not voting for McCain/Pa(l)in ticket...sorry neo cons

SAY IT AGAIN.... t.t.p!

The socialist argument is so brainless.

What do you call the government RIGHT NOW?!

What do you call Bush over the last 6-8 years controlling everything and running it into the ground?  Telling us all what to do, and how to think?  How can you honestly say, and without a dumb look on your face, that Obama's plans are socialist when it's not even close.  Redistribution of wealth??  Get real!  Bush redistributed from our pockets to his rich friend's.  Cheney Haliburton?  Right?  The list goes on and on.

Get some more buzzwords to parrot, why don't you?  The socialist argument is ignorant.

Why can't we equate McCain with Bush?

His policies are so similar and that's what we're equating.  His own admitted incompetance is similar and so we're equating.  His demeanor and conduct over the last few months are actually far worse and more disgusting than Bush, but I'll still equate him.

So why not?  Because you say not to?  Learn to think instead of just parroting an old fool.

If you went to college and actually took the required Poly Sci. you would have been asked to identify the type of government of the United States. If you responded anything other than State Socialism you would have been marked incorrect. It is a shame how uneducated we are and a greater shame is how our politicians, particularly on the Right, take advantage of our ignorance.

I think you be surprised to find out Bush and Chaney will return as the Antichrist!!

He's not the anti-christ but he's anti-business and will put this country into a depression;

If you liked former President Herbert Hoover, you will LOVE Barack Obama.

I thought John Kerry was the anti-christ...?

Or was it Clinton...either one....?

oh brother - that is old

No, the anti-christ will have all the answers to all the questions, he hasn't shown his/her face---yet.

Michael,

You are part of the fringe group that John MCshame said he could not control. To call the next president the anti christ is something that george wallace would say.

Michael Herr said:  "I think that obama is the antichrist."

Right.

He also kidnapped the Lindbergh baby, sank the Titanic, was Hitler's second-in-command, and is probably the one who spilled the beans to you about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

Where do you people come from?

You are an idiot.

Lay off the kool aid.

You know it's funny how every Democrat blames Bush for the economy.  The President only signs legislation.....he does not initiate it!  He may present a plan and make suggestions, but Congress makes the laws.  Anything that Bush initiates must be approved by Congress.  I agree that this bailout bill (passed on to the President to sign by CONGRESS) is far from what a free market economy should be!  Do you want to see the market grow and the economy stabilize??  Then eliminate CAPITAL GAINS TAX!!!  People will then start buying these bad mortages in hopes that they will be able to sell them later for a profit.  THAT'S A FREE MARKET ECONOMY! Oh....and guess what....the DEMOCRATS have controlled Congress for the last 2 years!!!

What about the previous 6 years? You must look at them as well. 

Considering that this country had to deal with 2 of the worst disasters ever (911 and hurricane Katrina), our economy....until recently....has done pretty well.  You can look at the previous 6 years, but can you realistically put a start date on when this economic crisis started??  Was it the day Bush took office?  Was it half way through Clinton's second term?  Was it when Carter was in office?

The only thing that is certain is what's happening now.  Taking your point about the previous 6 years, that still leaves 2 years when a Democratically controlled Congress could have looked at this and tried to do SOMETHING!  I don't remember seeing any economic bills in the past 2 years legislated by Congress and vetoed by Bush.

Who passed these laws before two years ago. Republicans. Who put the bill up for a vote that caused the deregulation that causing this finanical problems just before the Christmas break, Gramm. A republican controled congress passed this bill that was signed by Bush. There's plenty of blame to go around but Bush and the Republican controled congres has to take the blame this time. In the last two years how many times has the Republicans filibuster. Let's work together not try to destroy this country by trying to make the other party look bad. When will this every stop.

"Socialism-phobes?"  Why don't you try living in Cuba or Russia?  If you hate free market so much then MOVE. Bush was NOT the cause of this economic crisis.  The Democrat majority in Congress (for two years causing this mess) were getting contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (one huge receiver was BHO).  During the Clinton era  people were being approved for mortgages they could not afford like an "affirmative action" for the housing market (they actually accepted WELFARE as a source of income).  Great idea DEMOCRATS.  That is why we are in the mess. 

As far as "right wingers who don't pay taxes or serve in the military" #1 - Republicans SUPPORT our troops as opposed to you liberals who want to pull out of Iraq.  Do you people not remember 9/11?  Have we been attacked like that since??? NO.  #2- WE are the ones paying your WELFARE and gov't programs through our taxes. We are hard working Americans not looking for a handout. Get it straight.

I'd rather be a "conservative nut job" than a liberal with no nuts and no job.

Have you ever been put in the situation to need help?  All democrats do not believe this way.  Ever hear of the independent party?  Also, asking us to live in a foreign country is nice if you want the government literally running your life.  Oh, is that what the republican party is about?  Oh, let's go back to the Mayflower, they said indians were savages when they came over here and that they needed reforming, isn't that kind of FORCING a nation and people to do what you want them to do?  System hasn't changed much.  Democratic business--change is needed to keep up with competition.  Republican business--business the same.  Do the same thing and expect different results--I think not!!

Actually,  the crisis was began in the late Reagan, Bush I time period.

A decision was made by the "experts" to go against conventional wisdom: The American public would be encouraged to NOT save, but to use more and more credit. They didn't want to have a minor downward bump in the economy on their watch. Now we need a BIGGER "bump" for a MUCH longer period of time for the economy to correct itself. Hang on, it won't be forever. (Altgough it may feel like it at times.)

-GoCowboys-

We have one thing in common; I'm a Dallas fan also (If that's what you are referring  GoCowboys to)

You are real wise with the words my friend but not so wise when it comes to foreign affairs hence the war in Iraq. I remember everything about September 11, 2001 like where I was, what I was doing, who I was with, oh' and one other thing who executed the attacks on the World Trade Center buildings. Was it the Iraqis? Hmmm... Or was it AL-QAEDA? The thought of Osama bin Laden still being alive and reforming his international Sunni Islamist movement for additional attacks is bloodcurdling and we all know bin Laden doesn't reside in Iraq! So, why are we wasting our time and money over there? "Republicans SUPPORT our troops" excuse me but I'm an independent voting for Obama this election and I support our troops as well!

We are Americans my friend and we need to unite as a multiformity nation and bring back the dreams and hope our founders sought out when first placing foot on this Beautiful Land! When comparing Senators Barack Obama and John McCain I'll have to go with Colin Powell and my beliefs on this one and vote for the Obama/Biden ticket this election. He is "that one" the one who will bring back the American Dream and structure to our Nation! As Powell said, "I think he is a transformational figure, he is a new generation coming onto the world stage, onto the American stage. I think that Sen. Obama brings a fresh set of of eyes, a fresh set of ideas to the table. I think that Sen. McCain, as gifted as he is, is essentially going to execute the Republican agenda, the orthodoxy of the Republican agenda with a new face and with a maverick approach to it. And he'd be quite good at it. But I think we need more than that. I think we need a generational change. And I think Sen. Obama has captured the feelings of the young people of America and is reaching out in a more diverse, inclusive way across our society"

So, do yourself and your fellow Americans a favor and vote for Obama on November 4, 2008. Have a great day. : )

P.S It's a bummer that the Cowboys didn't pull through today! Hopefully we'll take Tampa Bay next week.

Your fellow American,

Daniel

-GoCowboys-

We have one thing in common; I'm a Dallas fan also (If that's what you are referring  GoCowboys to)

You are real wise with the words my friend but not so wise when it comes to foreign affairs hence the war in Iraq. I remember everything about September 11, 2001 like where I was, what I was doing, who I was with, oh' and one other thing who executed the attacks on the World Trade Center buildings. Was it the Iraqis? Hmmm... Or was it AL-QAEDA? The thought of Osama bin Laden still being alive and reforming his international Sunni Islamist movement for additional attacks is bloodcurdling and we all know bin Laden doesn't reside in Iraq! So, why are we wasting our time and money over there? "Republicans SUPPORT our troops" excuse me but I'm an independent voting for Obama this election and I support our troops as well!

We are Americans my friend and we need to unite as a multiformity nation and bring back the dreams and hope our founders sought out when first placing foot on this Beautiful Land! When comparing Senators Barack Obama and John McCain I'll have to go with Colin Powell and my beliefs on this one and vote for the Obama/Biden ticket this election. He is "that one" the one who will bring back the American Dream and structure to our Nation! As Powell said, "I think he is a transformational figure, he is a new generation coming onto the world stage, onto the American stage. I think that Sen. Obama brings a fresh set of of eyes, a fresh set of ideas to the table. I think that Sen. McCain, as gifted as he is, is essentially going to execute the Republican agenda, the orthodoxy of the Republican agenda with a new face and with a maverick approach to it. And he'd be quite good at it. But I think we need more than that. I think we need a generational change. And I think Sen. Obama has captured the feelings of the young people of America and is reaching out in a more diverse, inclusive way across our society"

So, do yourself and your fellow Americans a favor and vote for Obama on November 4, 2008. Have a great day. : )

P.S It's a bummer that the Cowboys didn't pull through today! Hopefully we'll take Tampa Bay next week.

Your fellow American,

Daniel

Linda---the middle class works for small businesses in this country.  Their owners are not rich, believe me.  They take less out of their businesses for themselves so that they can hire more employees like you.  Without these businesses this country will die.

Michelle--If they're not rich, they'll pay less taxes and can hire more people.

Not all "the middle class" work for small businesses... Many of us work for very large corporations who will pay us as little as possible regardless of what the company is bringing in.  Many of us are government employees, many of us work several part time jobs for several different large companies... With Obama, we "the middle class" will get help.  With McCain the large companies will get help (which we will not see due to GREED).  I understand that the trickle down idea looks good on paper but that is when you are assuming that all people are good people and they're not.

michele

......define Socialism????

Michelle, you have the right outlook and I agree. I've been a small businessman for many years. Most small businesses gross more than $250,000 but most of that goes back into the business for overhead, salaries, etc. Obama's tax plan will cripple many small businesses. Unfortunately there seems to be no way to use facts and logic with the far left to change their mind. They just don't want to be confused with the facts. If they win the election for Obama they will learn the hard way, what they lost. Unfortunately, we all will. 

The amount you're taxed on is the net profit. That's after you pay the rent, utilities, employees, insurances, vehicle expences, the cost of the product, etc. I'm an S corp with several employees, service vehicles, and provide health insurance. I've grossed as much as around $750k. I've never netted anywhere near $200k. Joe either hasn't done the numbers, or he doesn't understand that you get taxed on the net profit.

It's not socialism. But we already have socialism. The public school system. Everybody pays. Why not just make the parents pay. The highways and road. 18 cents a gallon tax isn't paying for much of that. Airports and the FAA, yet a fairly low percentage fly regularly, actually primarily business, so we all subsidize business. Amtrack. Even Obama's healthcare isn't socialism (take time to actually read it), but how can we pay for these other things and deny healthcare?

If I as a business pay more in taxes, just like any other cost, I try to make more money. Often that entails adding more people, as each employee makes me more money. Contrary to Republican misbelief (I am a registered Republican), businesses don't close up when costs go up, and that includes taxes.  And when I invest in my company, that is deductible, and I pay less taxes.

Our corporate tax rates are in line with and generally lower than the other G7 countries, which have a comparable GDP. McCain likes to mention Ireland's Corporate tax rate, but their GDP and economy is tiny compared to ours. We have a huge Defense budget by comparison, for example. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! I believe their are quite a few "businessperson" posers on here and elswhere on blogs at the moment....  They shout about how Obama's plan will be the death of them and they are going to lay "everyone off", but when questioned, they don't know even the very basics of running a busininess, and certainly don't know about Taxes, Expenses, Writeoffs, etc.
After seeing one person on a blog post MANY times that they were a "bussinessman" and "CEO" and were "moving all there jobs overseas" if Obama wins, I asked them what their EBTDA was, and got heavily chided for not using spellcheck!!!!!!!!  saying how can I answer if you can't spell a word??? When I pressed the question, they dissapeared..... 

I guess I should have been clued in by the ALL CAPS posts....
Sheesh.....

Taxes are on net revenue.  Tax breaks for those not making a killing.  Tax credits on hiring employees.

Get it straight you McCain Tools.

That is the problem.... Have you noticed that most of the McCain supporters don't know diddley about how the whole tax thing works..... HeeeeeLLLLLLLooooooo!  If you McCain supporters want to bash Obama, then you need to be educated about exactly why you're bashing him.  Most of the McCain supporters sound very secluded from the rest of society....  You must really read and analyze things before making these absurd comments.  Obama is the ONLY potential ticket out of this MESS WE ARE IN.... and by the way, the almost half of my retirement savings that I've lost in the past month (due to the WALL STREET IDIOTS who are really the only ones who should be whining about Obama) doesn't seem to be coming back!  The average american and their families had better think LONG and hard before they vote for McCain.

To clear it up...

Socialism:

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

I'm confused..... did Obama say anything about the government taking control of our homes, businesses, schools, trade, etc so that we have no control over anything?  Did I miss something? Because I am sure that I have been paying close attention to both candidates.... When the lower and middle classes were up to their knees in *&^@, the government didn't do a damn thing about it.... All of a sudden now that WALL STREET is in trouble, and the rich are being somewhat affected, there is a problem.  Obama = Socialism?...... NO. Obama = Solution...... YES. 

Question: Do you own a small business?  If not shut mouth right now, brand a bright red "H" on your forehead (for hypocrisy.  Most Dumobrats have them already), and talk about things you do understand or have experienced.  Would you want to invest in a retirement plan right now when the stock market is up and down?  Should he have to spend all his money buying new equipment so he wouldn't have to pay taxes?  What if he doesn't want to buy more equipment?  What if it's just easier to do less work and fire an employee?  As a small business owner, to me that's the easier way: if there is a cut off like that, just make less by doing less and fire someone (probably who voted for BO... just kidding...) if they are no longer necessary.  I don't think you know as much as you think you do... just like your hero, BO, and his friendly politicians who say are in our corner but really aren't.  The more the government tries to fix problems, the more problems there are going to be.  That is because we have lawyers trying to do a businessman's job.  All lawyers are good for is giving a good speech... Hey... isn't that what Hillary said about your boy, BO?  Yeah... that's about all he'll do for us.  You guys are so racist you vote him in because he's black when Hillary and even Joe Biden were way more qualified than him.  I don't have a problem with his skin color.  If it were Clarence Thomas or Colin Powell running they'd have my full support.  But, seriously, tell me Joe Biden is not more experienced and better qualified than BO!  Had you all voted on experience, it would be Hillary or Biden vs McCain.  But, you all vote for the good speech.  Nice job.  And, when we end up in the Great Depression II, we can thank the Bush-Obama tag team if BO wins.

It's interesting that people can't discuss politics or any type of discussion in a civil way.  Yes, Sir, I own 4 corporations, all of which are small businesses, I do over $2 million per year in sales and have never had to pay a significant year end tax.   I have a doctorate degree and run all my business by myself.  If you run your business right, you should be able to realize very little taxable income.   Usually, we strive to keep our taxable income below $50,000 which is taxed at a 15% rate.   When we are in a situation where our income is greater, we spend our excess year end cash on equipment, bonuses (that get spent by employees to spur the economy), and retirement accounts.  How does "firing" your employees help grow your business?  You obviously run a small mom and pop business that barely gets by, otherwise, these business decisions you suggest makes absolutely no sense.  Additionally, "working less" simply tells the world that you are lazy and have a business so you won't have to be accountable to an employer who may object to your lack of effort.  You are totally WRONG in your assumption that this is a bad time to invest.  On the contrary, this is the BEST time to put money into a retirement fund.  In 3 or 4 years, you would net exceptional yields.   It's obvious you have no clue what you are talking about.  Ranting and Raving without any clear, concise point will only clarify that your response is a meaningless and illiterate post.

Chad, Chad, Chad,

You must have one hell of a maverick view of business, if you believe it is better to do less work and make less money than it would be to invest pre-tax profits in your plant and equipment.

Speaking as an individual who owns a small business which typically profits greater than the threshold of $250K before tax planning, I cannot recall a time when simple, effective strategies have resulted in excessive tax burden. Dividends, bonuses, improvements and reinvestment have been beneficial not only to my family, but our employees and our clients as well.

We have been able to reward those who work so hard to get the job done. Yes, we make more money as individuals and, consequently, have a greater individual tax burden. But, we have no greater tax burden to the business. This taxation of profit is intended to encourage allocation of monies to people and business improvements. If you intend to just sit on profits, pay employees less than they deserve and let your building fall apart under your feet, you should pay higher taxes. Shame on you

Chad....

Lincoln said:

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. "

It's a little late, but.....

Joe the plummer is a liar !!! I don't think that it is a big leap to say that he is a a McCain plant. The guy walked up to Obama on the campaign trail and asked him a question completely based on lies. A few days later at the debate McCain brings Joe up. COME ON PEOPLE!! Joe the plumber isn't even a licensed plumber, he doesn't own his own company, he only makes 40,000 a year and he owes 17,000 in back taxes to Stark County Ohio, where he lives. I'm so tired of all of McCain's desperation. I think all he has left is the sympathy vote.

Well as you can see from the previous posts, businesses have many ways of avoiding higher taxes so what do you suppose that will mean for the rest of us. Obama is going to have to rethink how to get all the money he needs to fund his progams so he now has to go back and and change the tax increase to businesses making 100,000 or more and with a TOTALLY democratic house and senate and president he won't have a problem doing it. He will come back and say "so sorry but I have no choice." Then he still won't have enough money and "oh well now lets say anyone making over 50,000 a year" and before you know it the only ones that benefit from his plans are those on welfare who don't contribute to the tax base anyways. Yea sounds like good plans to me.

You know, people like Chad kill me because it is obvious that you can't know much about the way the economy works.  You are NEVER taking from the rich and GIVING to the poor.  If you know anything about welfare reform, you'd know that people receiving public assistance don't get nearly enough to live a productive life and since reform, (under Clinton's appointment, who is a democrat), the people receiving assistance can only get it for up to 5 years for their entire lifetime.  They are required to go to school or volunteer and the program is geared toward employment..... Also, Economics 101 will tell you that the country thrives off of lower income persons.  Why?  Because it is the lower income people, working for some of the largest corporations that make billions of dollars each year and simply donate to charities to bring them under higher tax breaks.

Now, don't get it twisted, I am an upper middle class woman who has succeeded and come a long way all on my own.  I don't necessarily believe we should just continue to raise taxes until we don't get to see our own money, but the bottom line is that President W.B. has doubled this nation's deficit over the past 8 years.  We talk about "Socialism" as if it were such a horrific thing, but the truth is that this nation will never become socialist simply because the President is the President, but this is a democracy and ultimately "The People" have the last say!  So, what are you scared of?  If you'd study the economy, you'd discover that the middle class is disappearing and if we allow another term or two of the same politics, the middle class will be extinct and then the nation would be comprised soley of the rich and the poor.  Exactly how do you think this country would thrive then?  The reason this democracy has worked since the beginning of time is because we had three main class systems with subdivisions that balanced everything out before.  I am tired of seing my retirement funds slowly dissipate into extinction.

Facts are facts.  McCain and Palin are losing; most American people don't want to vote for a platform of racial hate.  The new tactic is to court the extreme right and incite violence.  A dead man can't win, right?  Obama is no terrorist, and he has been perfectly clear and CONSISTENT with his platform.  Even GOP bigwigs are critical of the racial hatred and fearmongering that this campaign is waging.  Long-time supporters are running for the hills; all Mccain has left are right-wing nuts.  Republican policy got us into all of these messes, and Republican policy can't clean them up.   Afraid of factcheck.org?  I'll bet you are.

They are sore losers aren't they?  I was just watching the speach that McCain gave today in Florida.... and guess what?.... McCain is still going after character attacks instead of trying to win the vote by simply telling us what he is going to do about these crises we are in.... You know why?  It's because he has no solutions acceptable to the majority of Americans.... Instead, what he'd rather do is reach out to all of the brainwashed republicans who'd have him.... and say look, I have no solutions to our problems, so I'm going back to kindergarten when racism was on and poppin and I'm going to tell you in not so many words no matter what.... you should not vote for that man because he is not like me and we can't trust him.  Mc Cain, why don't you just admit that this man has won, but you just refuse to concede!  McCain should have your last name, McShame!  lol

Chad, I have a question for you.  You quote McCain about "distributing the wealth."  Let's look at his VP runner.  She taxed the hell out of the Oil Companies in Alaska and then gave the proceeds to the people in Alaska.  Now how is that for someone who is not a supporter of "distributing the wealth?"  If that's not distributing the wealth I don't know what is!!

Steve---as a businessman, you should be celebrating people like Joe who want to improve themself and the lives of their families and employees.  Why would you criticize this man.  People like JOe are the type that  you can help as an  accountant.   He is a potential client.

I think it's the part about making a decision that is contrary to what the facts would indicate Joe do.....

Hello Michelle, what do you think he is saying. 

Kansas Lady, if you and your husband work your tails off and make less than $250,000 a year you should be more than glad to see Obama make it.  I don't get your point.  He is not going to take your money.  What about that don't you understand??

Clinton didn't do any good for anyone.  I make less that 250,000.00 a year.  My husband and I work very hard for our money.  We are able to pay our bills and keep our heads above water.  I don't think there should be any help for people that don't want to work, have overextended themselves or have made completely stupid decisions to put them in this predicament.  Welfare should only be for those that can't work because of a physical or mental disability, period.  Also, if Clinton had done his job properly, there wouldn't be a war in Iraq either.

It was Newt Gingrich and the Republicans in Congress at the time that gave us welfare reform and passed the law. Bill merely signed what Congress had authorized.  Never has been a penny taxed that Congress did not authorize and never has been a penny spent that Congress did not authorize.  Bill signed on when the Republicans took control of Congress. (and I'm a registered Democrat)

The Democrats always want to take money from the wealthy and give to the poor.  The wealthy are usually business owners that when things are good for them, things are good for their employees (the majority of us).  The "Trickle Down" theory.  When things are bad for them, things are even worse for their employees.  A lot of the people that are out of work are out of work because of sheer laziness, they can't pass a drug test, or can't drive to work because they lost their license from a DUI.  Those that are out of work because of lay-offs, may have to take a lesser paying job or relocate, but there are jobs out there.  The handouts started with FDR when he "Invented" jobs for people.

gotta agree with you kansas lady, my wife and i make about 55K combined and only owe 66K on our mortgage, with no other debt because we made choices to not purchase on credit. according to the hype, we'll get a nice tax cut under obamas plan, but he can keep it. i have no more right to someone else's money than obama does, but at least i have the integrity to not feel im entitled to it.

What happens in Kansas, Stays in Kansas.... I'm from New Jersey, and there is not a lot laziness.  You can't be productive in this state unless you do something for yourself.  You should be questioning what the rich have to do to receive and maintain such wealth... Had they been doing it legitimately half of them wouldn't be in trouble on WALL STREET, where they needed to be BAILED OUT and then got caught splurging in lavish hotels on tax payer dollars.... Food for thought

SaSa-650896, you sure have made a lot of assumptions there. You assume that only rich people participate in wall street. You assume that anyone that is weathy does it illegally? There are a LOT of average people who lost money in the market and much of that for retirement. You assume all companies are out there spending money foolishly from the bailout. Need I go on. Only one company that I know of was caught foolishly spending money after receiving money from the bailout. That is why we need more accountability. Something McCain has called for not Obama and whether you want to admit it or not, there are a lot of people out there NOT carrying their fair share who feel ENTITLED to other peoples hard earned money. They don't care who it comes from as long as they get it. That is the real problem here. People now think they are ENTITLED to have what they didn't earn instead of earning what they have. The big "You owe me because I live here". I don't know how that happened but it has and we need to get back to a better work ethic. I for one struggle every day to make ends meet. I do own a small business. It is VERY hard work. I eat, sleep and breath my business. I meet all kinds of people and I have many people that have come to me for a job. There haven't been near as many people who REALLY want to work for their pay. Many have wanted a lot of money but don't want to have to work. They want to pick their hours. Don't want to work weekends and want all the benefits they can get. Well let me tell you. I can't afford to hire a good employee who wants to work let alone an employee who wants big bucks for nothing. I can't even afford health insurance for myself let alone insurance for an employee. Tell me how I am going to afford Obama's fine for not supplying insurance if I hire an employee. His 3000 tax credit for hiring doesn't mean squat to me if I can't afford the salary to hire. You really need to get a clue!

Time for truth.... I choose my words very carefully, even as I speak, and I am sure that I did not say ALL.  When you find the word ALL in any of my inserts, please quote me!  Oh, by the way, on that wall street thing, I said half!

You should be watching CNN right now... they are investigating those Wall Street crooks I mentioned that you are so quick to defend... also, I hadn't read your complete post before I had responded to it and I would just like to take the time to let you know that there are some decent people in this country and there are some that are not... I can't speak for the people that you've tried to hire; however, I am sure there are some that would work, but you may have to take a look at yourself and the way things are run over there.  Nobody wants to spend their time bull@!$%#ting by working for a person who doesn't give two craps about them.  And even though you may own a small business, people need health insurance.  I own a small business, and there is no way, I'd not see to it that my employees get what they need.  One thing I've learned some time ago is if you take care of your employees, they will take care of you.  It's called respect.  I don't attempt to just make money off of them.  If you are not able to provide the health insurance, then maybe you need to try harder to do so.  There are senior citizens out there who have had to go back to work after working hard all of their lives because they need better health insurance than the medicare that is provided.  On the other hand, it seems as if you may be able to benefit from voting for Obama.  After all, if you can't afford to provide healthcare for your employees, chances are that your business does not net over 250,000 annually and you will see tax cuts.  YOU may want to re evaluate who you are voting for!

well - you know what - at least China is prospering - frankly after 8 years of decline I would think Americans would open their eyes - where have we gotten in 8 Years???? - on the verge of bankruptcy

The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew.
Abraham Lincoln

I believe that LMBs Plato quote is actually a more accurate description of the current situation - especially when you consider that the majority refers not to us, but to the power brokers on wall street and in the broadroom.

I'm sorry..... did you mean quit?

Wow, rpmranch...another 3% to get this country out of the abyss the wealthy have thrown it into is going to break you? News flash: it ain't going to the lazy SOB down the street. It's going to the lazy SOBs on Wall Street who've robbed the system silly for way too long.

Unless, someone can LEARN to do it for themselves, saving TIME AND MONEY!!!

The next time you have someone work on your plumbing, ask them if they have a plumber's license.  Chances are, they don't.  You have to work for someone who has a license before you can take the test.   That's how the government manipulates the system to ensure that the plumber's who are qualified can't just go take a test and go into business for themselves.  Another way to regulate and manipulate at the consumer's expense.

Great post Joe Radmacher!

I never understood so called "good" christians. Out of one side of their mouth they say they are good God fearing, church going, Jesus loving people, but demonstrate via their talking points, and actions in many cases, how mean spirited they really are. Let's see; woman aren't allowed to choose, gays aren't allowed to be completely happy, immigrants are to be booted back to their own country, many cling to their guns and in some cases kill animals from airplanes, and they will happily kill no good criminals, chanting "kill him, kill him".  

I can't imagine, under any circumstance, the Jesus that I have been brought up to understand rallying to any of the above. It feels wrong.

I ask every gun loving "good" Christian out there this one question, and please be honest. Can you honestly picture Jesus in a plane eyeing down any animal, putting it in the crosshairs, taking a shot, then going down to have His picture taken with the animal and smiling? Can you? Remember, be honest.

Palin is just one example of a "good" Christian who is fine with doing something like that, but she does represent her ilk.

And finally for all you guys who voted for Bush in 04, please please, please vote for the smart guy this time. It may actually feel like you're making amends.

I give to the poor whenever I can.  I just don't want the government forcing me to.  I decide who to give to and when.  Democrats seem to be unwilling to give to the poor unless we all give to the poor.  Frankly, charities do a better job of it than government programs that are run by corruption.  Look at the afterschool programs in Chicago.  Thousands were handed to people who never hired a teacher but simply pocketed the money.  I guess this happens occasionally with private charities/churches.  But I believe a LOT less than when government agencies become involved.