Do you agree with the gay-marriage bans?

The bill of rights guarantees:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I understand what you are saying but our country has never made a law (until now) that has recognized marriage as more than a contract between two people:

See you want the seperation of church and state but you dont understand that "Marriage" is from the church. But the acknowledgement of it is "Legal Union" by the state government. The push from the Homosexual community should not be on "Re-defining Marriage" but on asking the government to acknowledge all contractual unions.

If homosexual couples are seriously looking for equal rights and dont like the churches input than leave "marriage" to the church and re-define the law not social institutions made by religion. When you bring lawsuits to try and make people believe as you do then you are not respecting others views, which is exactly what you are fighting against. Right?

I am a believer and also a person who loves all people as Jesus taught us to do. I do also believe that we have used the government to be what the church and mans good will was always meant to be. The taking care of the sick, wounded, helpless, and war torn people of the world. I dont believe in a party, but in individual issues, Freedom of Faith, and Life (because all people matter to God), Individual Resposibility, and doing all we can to help others.

As a Christian I will vote on the issues and liberties of all Americans without holding them to a different standard. No parties, No candidates, just the issues...

You are attempting to deny gays this:

"deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.'

You are attempting to prevent them from having equal access to the protection of civil contracts that protect them financially, and the ability to support partners during health crisis, etc.

And the fact that you attempt to quote Jesus to support your bigotry?

Anyone can quote the bible to support almost anything...

1 Samuel 18:1-3
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house. Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.

I really do not care what anyone does in their own home as long as it does not harm a child or a spouse, but PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO SHOVE YOUR SEXUALITY DOWN MY AND MINES THROAT.

Old Fashioned Grandma

your view is contradictory. In the first place by quoting the bill of rights you have demonstrated that what is happening is unconstitutional. No state has the right to deny me anything that will add to my quality of life. It's easy for people to try to rid themselves of anything that will make them uncomfortable as long as it will not upset their own comfort. I'm not trying to interfere with them. I'm trying to get the same guarantees and rights that have been established many years ago. Who made marriage a product of the church?? I know that you do not need a church to get married in, nor do you need a minister or pastor to marry. See how many people have secular marriages outside the church and then get back to us when you can make an unbiased opinion! I am not in the process of bringing lawsuits to push my point of view I am trying to receive the same rights that the bill of rights and constitution say are mine to begin with. Whether you and your kind agree with that or not is your business; not mine or anyone else's!!! Don't try to cover up your hypocrisy by extolling the virtues of your "Christian values". You really don't have any and the fact that YOU are the one making a politcal staement means that there is no separation of church and state as far as you're concerned so long as you get your way.

Oh, grandma!  I fear you're just a tad-bit homophobic.  It's okay, though, I have phobias too, but not towards people who live an alternative lifestyle.  It's okay, they're harmless.  You can let go of your fear and bigotry now.  Hope this brings you a sense of peace!

R.Crock:

Speaking of "Crock," that's what your whole post was..."A Bunch of Crock"!!!  You state that we have a lot more serious issues to deal with, right?  And that you feel your valuable time is being wasted, right?  If so, why did you bother to post on this subject??? 

Keeping gay people from marrying isn't gonna make them stop being gay, lol! So what's the point? If you feel like being gay is wrong, then go find a cure! If you believe in the sanctity of marriage as the bible intended, then why not also work hard to pass legislation that makes cheating punishable by stoning, outlaw divorce, makes a woman marry the brother of her husband if he dies, and makes sure the tribes of Israel don't intermarry with the heathen nations...

R.crock you are absolutely right we do have more important things to worry about - We heterosexuals who avidly support the rights of gay couples definitely have our work cut out for us protecting our kids from judgmental bigots!

And if Bruce and Steve were put in the "Garden of 'Eve' " (??).....why that would be a porno for sure.

If you think this is about civil rights, think again.  All this gay-marriage crap, a muslim decedent black president, legalizing suicide, marijuana, etc...all of it contributes to the prophecies of our days, that we, as a nation will self-destruct.  Voting a black man into office just put us into HYPERSPEED of self-destruction.  I for one am grateful to see that the downfall of the nation is right around the corner.  This only means that the second coming of Jesus Christ is not far off.  When He comes again, He will put Himself as the government of this earth, because we keep messing it up.  He is the only power that will be able to put things as they should be.  Yes, He will show love to all the inhabitants of the earth, but God cannot look upon SIN with the least degree of acceptance.  I can't wait until He is in charge.  Mankind is too self-destructive, self-centered, and just plain carnal minded...almost animalistic.  Jesus, please come and save us from ourselves.

To say that marriage is just a "civil contract" is vastly incorrect and socially dangerous.

Marriage is not merely a civil right and it cannot be placed in the same category as voting and driving and free speech.  You cannot have marriage without sex, and intercourse requires male and female genitalia.  Therefore, among other reasons, men cannot marry other men because it is physically impossible. 

Natural law has dictated that men and women are different in many ways, and those ways are complementary.  To say that women can marry other women is breaking natural law.   Celebrate the relationships of men and women, and keep marriage between them! 

I've had a lot of gay friends over the years and everything is fine until one day we were driving in his car and he turned to me and said, "You know I'm gay, right?" and i said, "Yes." Nothing else was said that day, but then I found out later he didn't want to be my friend anymore, because I didn't overtly praise him for it, I just kept my mouth shut and let him be who he wanted to be. I spent a lot of time in my younger years (and I"M not old), trying to prove to those different than myself that I accepted them and it was never good enough.

I don't even bother anymore. I have now changed my mind. I think gays are the biggest bigots of all. They only like those that agree with them. They don't ever respect another opinion. There are horrible things that have happened to children and youth that were struggling, and it is awful. I wish that gays were just as openminded as they wish all heterosexuals would be. Just because someone is gay doesn't mean they can expect everyone to have the same opinion on it.

Did you know that?  Here's a little history derived from an internet search...

"From the early Christian era, marriage was thought of as primarily a private matter, with no religious or other ceremony being required.^{[citation needed]} Prior to 1545, Christian marriages in Europe were by mutual consent, declaration of intention to marry and upon the subsequent physical union of the parties.^{[citation needed]} The couple would promise verbally to each other that they would be married to each other; the presence of a priest or witnesses was not required. This promise was known as the "verbum." If made in the present tense (e.g., "I marry you"), it was unquestionably binding; if made in the future tense ("I will marry you"), it would constitute a betrothal. But if the couple proceeded to have sexual relations, the union was a marriage.^{[citation needed]} One of the functions of churches from the Middle Ages was to register marriages, which was not obligatory. There was no state involvement in marriage and personal status, with these issues being adjudicated in ecclesiastical courts."

So, this modern notion that marriage is a religeous sacrament is nonsense.  The church originally just recorded them but they were not obligated.  So equal protections under the law, in this case, has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGEOUS PRACTICE!!!!

Goofball, you are such an idiot.  I'm sorry, but you do not have any more of a right to have an OPINION on my or anyone else's sexual orientation than I do to have an opinion on your eye color.  Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?  How can you generalize all gay people as you do?

And, by the way, YOU try living for just ONE DAY in a world that constantly disrespects you, oppresses you, persecutes you, (sometimes) vilifies you, and denies you basic rights and tell me how that makes YOU feel.  Shame on you.

Let me add one more thought... I believe it was as late as the 1950's that people of different races could not marry.  Repealled in all states and the world hasn't come to an end...

Sdiddy407, I am gay, I agree whole heartily with what you're speaking of regarding the institution of marriage.   It shouldn't be a constitutional liberty to label these things as marriage.   If I want equal rights, guaranteeing the word "marriage" on a piece of paper is not equal rights per say.  I don't need a word to define my meaning or level of someone in my life.  A compromise will ultimately have to be made to ever gain understanding from both sides but I greatly appreciate all those that stand up for our equal rights. 

Gays are often discounted by many religious institutions anyway because they being to upset the "business" of religion and to an extent power, or sense of one's self.   Why would a gay want to carry those labels of a society that ultimately doesn't want them there unless they change the way God made them?  It isn't a choice.  Why would anyone sanely choose this life of rejection, reticule and isolation?  I do think we need to get a bit more sane in our approach of this because we cant spend the next 200 years making legal and illegal at every election the rights of people.  I largely blame the actions of the state of California for making gays their next tax ploy, not the people of the state itself.  It was a rushed judgement without thought as to how it should be carried out.  This game was an unfair treatment of human ethics at the hand of the government.

Gays are people that, if they only could, would prefer to be able to enjoy life they see around them as if it was theirs.  Gays feel outcast because no matter how much they pray, lie to themselves and others (against God's laws) they will always be who they are.  A gay man marrying a woman and leaving her feel unloved/wanted to live that image destroying more lives, is not the answer either.  I dont think God intentionally tries to torture anyone.  It begs the question, how do we know the bible throughout history is the same document and how do we know it was written in the purest of form of God?   If it is God's true word, even while being taken to the human race by other imperfect humans as created by God, then what does he have intended for 1 in every 10 people that are likely GLBT?  I wonder what is intended for those that are created imperfect, we are after all, the sinned before birth humans trying to earn the same place in heaven or happiness.

hey davy crocker or whatever you name is. Sh*t also comes out your mouth evidentally. you couldn't be any more demeaning if you tried! a little gay never hurt anyone. it sounds like you're a closeted one in disguise ;) oh and grandma, its not 1902 anymore. people are out and proud. women kiss women. guys put their "pecker" where "Sh*t" comes out. if you guys want to be any cruder i'll be here to retaliate. and thank you Frannie for supporting us. the only thing harming children today is close minded biggots who feel they only way is their way. how dare gays get married, the world might blow up and shower the universe in fairy dust and rainbow sprinkles! why dont you start worrying about the economy which is going to hell or all the people that have died in iraq. something of relative importance you know.

There are thousands of laws that use the legal term "marriage".  It would be unfeasible to change all of them.

Goofball, it is possible that your gay friends may have had feelings for you or other issues, it had nothing to do with being biggots or judgemental or your being straight.  Don't take their reactions personally when they ready to open themselves to you and they get quiet.  I am sure they equally dont want to judge you and do value you as a friend.   True friendships are stupid to throw away if there is true understanding between them at some level.  Not every gay will walk away treating you like a dumbass, they arent going to respond with the emotions you might expect from the same of your sex. 

Many gays suffer from emotional distress and lack of self more than any straight person may understand because of the context, and hopefully shouldn't have to feel in their own right.  If they walk away, take it as nonpersonal, and as an issue of understanding themselves.   In the end, you made a right choice by befriending a human being to begin with regardless of what they were.  You are cool in my book for being that way.

Where does it say in the Constitution I have the right to marry?  I thought that was a religious thing?  Next, it's going to be I can't divorce, or it's unconstitiutional to live together.  Why is this such a big deal?  Why is everyone so up in arms about it? Let them "marry" if they want.

R U kidding me?  Unfeasible to change a law?  Are we living in a democracy or not?  Wow, maybe you and your type should move to a different country where freedom is less celebrated.  Where religious fundamentalists have total control and punish all those who would wish to have freedom of belief and freedom to love and marry who they choose. 

We spend alot of time these days criticising Middle Eastern countries for allowing religious fundamentalists to have so much power over their people and their laws, I think we need to take a good hard look in the mirror.  Freedom and justice for all* (*unless you are gay, mexican, muslim...etc., etc.)

At any rate I don't see how the legal term 'marriage' need be changed all that much.  Make it a union between two consenting adults (only ultra-conservative bigots care who those two adults may be), all of the legal right can stay the same. 

As for the ability to bear children, how many man/woman couples are unable to bear children for one reason or another?  I don't see that affecting their right to marry or benefit from any of the legal rights that come with marriage.

And to all those who say that homo- or bi- sexualty is unnatural.  I think you need to spend more time observing nature.  It is hypocritical in the utmost to say that God made all of us and loves all of us and then to turn around and say that homo-sexulity is against God's will.  Why would God create gay people if he didn't want them to be gay?  As a test?  Oh, please, grow up and stop trying to make yours and everyone else's life more difficult than it already is.  Get a different hobby than messing around with everyone else's rights.  what ever happened to WWJD?  Do you think he would be proud to see all of you running around insulting and hating and demeaning your fellow man?  Do you think he would cheer you on as you smash people's happiness and freedom under your boot?  As you finger point and sneer and belittle those around you who may not share your point of view?  I think he'd be saddened as am I.

“No state has the right to deny me anything that will add to my quality of life.”

“…The right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness…” this may prove to be a rather dangerous premise, but only time will tell. The experiment shall continue as surely the world turns.  Ethics are, after all, an evolving organism; they live their course and then they die, ever searching for that balance of the perfect moral.  Since we are, for the sake of argument, a democracy; if 51% is in favor, let it be so, and we shall deal with the consequences as they come.  Perceived and actual differences will always provide the potential for the demonization of either side.  Unfortunately not all bygones can be reconciled.  One side here feels that they are threatened, the other feels that they are unaccepted.  Whether or not the bases for these feelings are perceived or real, they will continue to fuel the political tensions in this country for many years to come.

Steve-377137

It seems that you are one of those people who just picks a verse/passage from the Bible and rejecting other verses/passages just to justify your actions.

That verse from the Bible is referring to brotherly love. Like sworn brothers or brotherhood. That verse is NOT about gays or lesbians relationship.

It is either you misunderstand the verse or picked that verse and rejected other messages from the Bible.

If you are a "Christian" by quoting the Bible, then you must be "Christian only by name" and not living your life as a "Christian."

This is where fundamentalism becomes evil and is a threat and a danger to God and to democracy.

The constitution promises equal rights to all Americans

ALL

not all except gays -- it doesnt' say that! it says ALL

and to use ANY constitution to withhold rights is a perversion and a subversion of the intent of contitutions!

constitutions are intended to protect and confer rights -- once we start condoning the mis-use of constitutions to withhold rights we are sunk!!! we are no longer free!!

i am heart sick and disappointed about this! it's wrong! and I'm tired of it -- I agree with the above posting -- none of us are free until all of us are free!!!!

I am not gay but I KNOW God sends us to earth as we are!!!!! Who is to judge God's creation or God's purpose!!! It's so wrong

It is a sin and this is what gets to me about these fundamentalists -- they call themselves Christian but they are not. What kind of God do you people believe in? Take it from me, I know a lot about God and -- luckily for us all -- God is vastly bigger than me or my fears or my ignorances! God WANTS gays to be a full accepted and loved part of society and to have all rights!!!!

God loves us all altho I am sure that the sinners trying to withhold rights from gays make God cry.

God is love it is you who are hate. You who voted for this should be ashamed of yourselves.

I will never stop praying and searching for gays to have all the rights everyone else has! This is just wrong and a sin.

I feel that it would only be the begining to something that shouldn`t be started to begin with,such as,where and when will this end? what is going to happen if I want to marry my sister? or my cousin? it`s just as SICK as you idiots trying to persuade us NORMAL people into thinking that you may actually have a point to this! Instead of trying to change the law for you,why not change yourselves to support the law? Life is tough, DEAL WITH IT!

dude. if you wanna marry your cousin. call a counselor. cause that isn't biological. unlike homosexuality. like i woke up one morning and was like "hey, i feel like being lesbian today so that everyone can outcast me and i can never get married". so please define NORMAL people for me please. would you consider murderers normal? how about child predators? you know what...your comment is so out there that im not even gonna fight with you. you are so ignorant that its sickening. idiots...wow. i hope you dont have kids cause what a bigoted role model you must be.

Sdiddy (re 1.1) - I really wish people would quit the confusion: Marriage is a civil union performed by Mayors, Judges, Justices of the Peace, Ship's Captains; etc. It is NOT a religious ceremony; nor is a ceremony necessary, only a marriage license.

Matrimony is a religious ceremony. We, in the United States and some other countries, allow matrimony ceremonies to also serve as the governmental marriage ceremony so long as you have the required marriage license.

If people understood the reality - that the reason this is an issue people vote on is that it is a legal issue and NOT a religious issue, it becomes much clearer.

People in many states have voted on "defense of marriage" titled measures that were actually an attempt to create a second-class citizenship for people where they can not legally marry not have any of the legal benefits of marriage.

Again. This has nothing to do with Matrimony or any other religious ceremony; it has to do with legal civil marriage. Period.

Stick to the facts and quit with the lies.

Marraige is older than Christianity which in a world view is a young religion.  Marraige is a union of two people who love each other.   You can believe what ever you want. Yes Matrimony is a word used by the Christian church, but marraige is universal.

You have no Rights You're an ObombAnation!!! Move back to Greece or better yet move to Iraq!!! Love does not constitute Sex or otherwise You Incestuous Inbred Idiots if that was the case my Dog would be your Soul Mate but Luckily my Dog would tear you a New Hole!!! Use a so called God and Bible to understand Life and the reasoning of its existence not to be taken Literal!!!! You're Scumbags NOW leave!!!! Nobody wants you

incestuous retards, 1st I am straight, and you are a idiot.  One of these days you will be the one who is shunned, cant wait for the day. You dont know a thing about God , you are out there in la la land, the bible does not teach the hate you spew, your little obombanation, the clue given to us about you and your racist and homophobic sick ideas makes me sick. But I wont worry about what you think, you are so twisted and little, you have no idea that gays are born gay, sent here by the natural order God set upon this earth. God knew what he was doing millions of years ago, yeh evolution, yeh natural order.

Hey Incestuous Inbred Idiot!!!! The time you quit taking Biblical Phylosophies Literal will be the time you realize the Reasoning of Existence within this Spere of Existence!!! Queers can not have Children but intend to use others to FUP Children and to get Special Rights!!! Love does not Constitute Sex and especially not Same Sex!!! You say you're straight but have the Mentality of a Diseased Queer!!! Burn at Salems Lot!!! For Witches and Biatches! Queers are Lepers and the only way to rid of Disease is to Burn it!!! Screw your so called Damned Evolution!!! Get your incestuous Inbred Brain out of Mesopotamia and up to this Century!!! We do have something for you Abraham Lovers and it's called a Red Hot Iron!!!! Biblical Stories should be taken Allegorical/Metaphorical to promote thought for Intelligent Rational Advanced Societies Spheres of Existence and from your Incestuous Inbred Reasoning the Brain Train By Passed Ya!!!!

Another thing YOU are really Retarded to believe Queers are born Queer, LOLOLOL It is only their Incestuous Inbred Mentalities which have been Bred into them by their Retard Parents/Peers!!! You ever heard of Learned Behavior Patterns!!!! Queers have become Queer due to they were not able to maintain Relationships with the Opposite Sex due to their Abuse whichever way Rejection from Lovers or a Job...... They have isolated themselves within Special/Secret Societies or alone within their miserable little Worlds and are now attempting to Change the Laws of Man and a So called God which for your Inbred Mentality work hand in Hand!!! What came first the Chicken or the Egg! Using a so called God for your Inbred Mentality is Blasphemous within itself according to the believers of such Fantasies within the Flock!!!! Genetics do not constitute Queers or Straights and Evolution involves Intelligence which you have None!!!

Imagine a Child committing a crime such as Snipering school Students or murdering a Loved one due to whatever caused the incident but none the less Murder and Imagine that Child also showed Compassion toward a Bum or Hugged its Mama!!! Within the same analogy as which the Queers and many others operate including the Media!!! They separate the Crimes from the Compassion and stipulate upon one or the other subjects which would suffice their objective!!!! Tell the Government they are Murderers but they will insist they are Compassionate when Separation is instilled!!! Queers say they are Compassionate and Love one another only for their own ends!!!! Murder Disease..... does not cancel Compassion out or Vise versa!!!! Your Puppy Brown Eyes are not fooling anyone except incestuous Inbred Idiots!!!! Your Incestuous Inbred Actions do not Constitute a Civilized Society but only the Laws of the Jungle which are not the same as the Laws of Nature!!! Laws of Mankind of so called God and of Nature!!!! No separation required since they all form ONE!!!! Now go back to your little Incestuous Worlds within the Tormented Hell of your own Minds!!!

I'm straight, but marraige isn't about lust. It's a civil contract, that stabilizes society.

The fact that you idiots don't want that, just shows your prejudice.

Then why is it such an issue to have the ability to call the "civil union" marriage when there is an ability to have a civil union without it being called marriage and it will have the same rights.  Marriage was always between a man and a women, even in the Roman Empire where it was at the height of the homosexual lifestyle.  So if you just want to have the ability to have the same rights, go for the civil unions, but marriage in itself is a religious instillation, not state.

Marriage is not a religious institution... I do not go to a church to get a marriage license. I go to the County registrar's office. Pastors do not issue marriage licenses, the government does. As far as marriage vs. civil unions, this country has already done 'separate but equal' and deemed it unconstitutional. If you belive in 'seperate but equal' then perhaps we should bring back segregation???

Gay marriage is not about lust... it is about love and your shallow comments on the issue highlight a bigotted and discriminatory attitude that it is hard to believe can survive in this day and age.

Bigotry has been legislated into CA's constitution.  Disgusting.  The worst fact is that the Mormon church bankrolled this whole thing.  I hope someone at the IRS is paying attention....

Lots of people want to protect the sanctity of marriate.  Okay, fine.

Then would those of you who want to protect the sanctity of marraige agree to a law that makes one actually honor one's wedding vows?  You know, that pesky "Till Death Do us Part"?

I personally think marriage is silly, and I think monogamy is probably the most boring way in the world to live a life.  (And I do exercise my anti-monogamy stance.  Whoo Hoo!)

However, if you MUST marry, then you should keep your vows.

A word loses it's religious value as soon as it is placed in a law book. Since there are legal bindings involved, It is no longer up to religions to decide what it's definition is.

Marriage is a CIVIL CONTRACT between two people and the state.  That is why the state gets to make laws regulating it.  Remember?  Religion is protected from state regulation in this country.  Absent a compelling state interest, the government has to keep its hands off religion.

weirdkat: Partners in a Civil Union do not have all the rights and responsibilities of married partners.  Some, but not all.  If the rights WERE actually the same, it is possible that there would not be such a clamor for the right to marry among gays and those who are not gay but cannot support continued discrimination.  After all, some churches have been solemnizing marriages between gay and lesbian partners without benefit of a marriage license for years.  The marriages were considered a spiritual union, but did not constitute a legal one.

It is not the role of government to defend or make official one group's religious definition.  plain and simple.  so many people i know who voted yes on this self-righteous, bigoted piece of trash are the same people who advocate a limited role of government; unless of course they want to legislate their religious beliefs, well then it's ok.

I ashamed of a simple majority of California voters.

and why is it that a simple majority is allowed to ammend our constitution.  the passing of this prop stinks of tyranny by the majority.

Isn't there a Domestic Partnership already? Why re-define Marriage? Prop8 is not discriminatory. NoProp8 is deceiving. Look at the TV ads and see for yourself. Do your research. 

Just re-define Domestic Partnership and NOT MARRIAGE.

Gays need to be able to get married!!!

thomas, yes, there is Domestic Partnership, NO, it does not confer the same rights, responsibilities and protections that marriage does.  Separate, in this case, is not even pretending to be equal.

Banning gay marriage IS discriminatory, denying some of our citizens equal protection under the law.

MICHAEL A. MANELLA (sorry you used up your allotment of uppercase letters in your own name):

If I'm the one you have the poor taste to call "honey", I am sorry to have to explain something so simple to you, but electing a president and providing equal protection to all under the law are two different Constitutional issues.  I'm sure there could be situations where there was some kind of crossover, but you haven't discovered one.

Not that I expect someone so simple-minded as to think that their religious bias and prejudice (and it is especially ludicrous when some of you deny that it is that "I'm not religious, but GOD DOESN'T WANT HOMOS TO MARRY!!!") should be forced on everyone else by LAW, to actually be able to hold two different sections of the Constitution in mind at the same time.  The Constitution is complicated.

It is rather sad that you referred to my "logic", though.  I made a simple statement.  A conclusion.  No logic attempted.  I would think you would appreciate that, since you are incapable of following it.

It is also sad that you think people who actually believe in Constitutional protections are "degenerates."  Since I'm not a Republican, I won't point out  how very unpatriotic that view is.

If no one else is going to inform Blunt on the religious upbringing of our current president-elect then I will.....Hey Blunt - Obama is NOT Muslim!!! I wouldn't mind seeing a little opposition to the whole 'Christian is the only acceptable belief system' but it won't be happening with this particular President as he is just as Christian as you are.

You Queers Influencing our Children of your Perversion is against the Law and UnConstitutional!!! You are no better the those you say Discriminate against you but you are the most Discriminative Racist Prejudiced Scumbags to everexist!!! You are the ones trying to Change the Laws!!! Move to the State of Washington They Love Mounting Horses and allow the Mentally Criminally Insane to Roam Free!!! GITMO should stay open for the Likes of You!!!

Incestuous Retards, Prop 8 was trying to "Change the Laws",  and did.  I hope your meds have kicked in by now, that you didn't have a stroke, and that you can stop obsessing about other people's sex lives long enough to get some sleep.  Without being heavily medicated, it doesn't sound like you should be roaming free, by the way.  I guess Washington was a love-hate kinda place for you:

Letting you roam free = good

"Love Mounting Horses" = not so much

By the way, for the most part, when people talk about "mounting horses" they are talking about the non-sexual, time-honored, traditional horseback riding.  Where is your mind?

Banning Queers from Marrying is not Changing the Laws!!!! The Laws of a Civilized Society!!! So get back into the Closet you FING Faggot and no You still can not Mount the Horse You know your Traditional Inbred Mentality Doggie Style!!! Go Blow yourselves up like say a Muslim, Queer!!!! Keep your BS off the Streets and away from Children!!! You Fers should never have Children since you prefer to be with the same SEX and prefer to use others to give you Rights to our Money and our Children!!! Bad influence upon Society!!! Brings back Salems Lot and this time they should finish the Job!!! They by Passed the Queers hiding in the Closets and under their Daddy's bed!!! Go to Hell You Queers!!!!

Letting you roam free = good  Once you're rounded up like Cattle and given a Good Dose of your own Medication with the Butcher!!!

"Love Mounting Horses" = not so much  Doggie Style you Inbred Idiot and the State of Washington with the Incestuous Inbred Fairy Governor would be a Good Place for you and All other Lepers!!! We could rename The State to refer to Lesbo Isles!!! There are some in Washington which do Love Nature with their fresh Kill and Gut it from the Anus to the Incestuous Inbred Brain, You know how to Gut a Deer!!!

Mark, you don't even make any sense.  Are you saying that we should outlaw single parent adoptions?  

Mark, if a mother or father dies, or if they split up, then should they be allowed to raise their kids or should the kids be put up for adoption?

Your right every child has a right!  A right to have a loving, caring and devoted family!  Children need families that give all their devotion to their children.  Families that are their for the children every step of their way.  Give them guidance about values and how everyone is gods child.  We treat everyone equal and respectful.  Straight or gay families, it doesn't matter, what matters is the devotion a family gives to their child. 

I've been reading a lot of this, and coming from a homosexual family. I am a strait married woman. Also, it wasn't my homosexual mother that abandoned me and my brother. It was my strait god fearing father who took his new heterosexual family accross the country and left my brother and I behind with no word of his location until WE looked for him.

When it all comes down to it, this is all about peoples fear of it being contagious. The fact of the matter is, my mother who is permanatly disabled and unable to work, not because of AIDS as I have heard some on here say that it is the only disease that gay people get... It is because of her degenerative hip disease coupled with with Cronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgia. Are you going to tell me that you will deny her medicine, surgery, and possibly life saving treatements because of your personal predjudices and bigotry?

This, and ONLY this, is the reason I refuse to be a christian.

People choose to be republican, gay, live in Detroit, etc. What is so wrong with admitting you personally chose something?

Anyone who thinks a person chooses to be gay must really get over themselves. I think that is a rationalization used by those who judge and discriminate against gay men and women.As far as I am concerned I am totally disappointed in the people of CA that passed prop 8. I do not even understand how we can put a proposition on the ballot that discriminates against a minority and is voted on by the majority. I for one would love a proposition that bans all religion that preaches discrimination in all forms from the great state of California. This is a huge step backwards and a wrong that I wish could be made right.

Goofball:  nothing wrong with admitting you personally chose something IF YOU DID.  I am sure it gets pretty damned annoying to be told that you chose something you didn't, by people who want you to be punished for it, however.

I was surprised (but pleased) when the California Supreme Court pointed out that basically, there wasn't a law that COULD be written banning gay marriages that could pass constitutional muster.  Our original Constitution of the United States of America denied equal rights to people of color AND women, and I believe that the MORE we turn toward equal rights, responsibilities and protection under the law, the better we embody the values that we claim to.  I wasn't surprised that the very next election included a (California) constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, but I was sorry to see it, and to see that it seems that it might pass.

tired voter, you didn't ask for input, and I am so not a Christian--but if you are carrying such bitterness toward your religious roots because of the damage you took over the years, I hope you will think about looking around for people who better model Christian love and spiritual strength.  Sadly, you know that isn't all Christians, but I promise you, they are not hard to find. 

Don't let the hurt some few bigots put on you when you were a helpless child keep you from your spiritual home.  (And please feel free to contact me for a few non-medical hints for people dealing with the pain of fibro.)

based on Mark's comment every child adopted by a gay couple should be returned to the group and foster homes they came because their loving gay parents are robbing them of having a mother and a father...those bastards!

All the arguments used by the yes on 8 campaign are based on nothing more than emotion; this is why they have to exploit the proposition system of California to amend the constitution by a simple majority (if attempted by the legislature, our representatives, they would have to have a super-majority which is impossible because their aren' that many superstitious bigots in the capitol).

it's a sad day for California..."down with constitutional rights and equality, up with my religion!"

mark my husband died what are you talking about "right" to a mother and father....you fundamentalists do not think

no one has rights to anything except those rights conferred by the constitution and the constitution says EQUAL RIGHTS TO ALL

fundamentalists are the furthest thing from God

people do not choose to be gay who would choose that lonely difficult road

how are gays hurting us straights? but we sure are hurting them and it's a sin

Mark: I do not believe you thought about your post long enough.  I will speak for myself - it is nice to know I had the "right" to a mother and father.  However, my mother was only 14 years old, and did not KNOW who my "father" was.  I am 66 and I still do not know. 

Dian Larkin: Please do not classify every one with a differing opinion as "fundamentalists".  To judge others is also a "sin".  Perhaps you could give your "definition" of "fundamentalists"?  That being said, I am sorry about Mark's remark - I know it was offensive to you and your circumstances - it was also offensive to me.

As to the subject at hand - without any regard to "religion", I consider Civil Unions, as I understand them, to afford the participants the same "protection" as marriage.  I guess each state is different, but I DO believe in equal rights in this country.  I also know, that in truth, most of us do NOT have equal rights.

"

Every child has the right to a mother and a father."

Okay that stated that'd be nice wouldn't it.  Now here is the reality. I didn't have a mother and father, I had a Grandmother and mother.  I am fine. My older brother is GAY! and he and his "husband" (they view themselves that way" would make fine parents.  How dare you and others say thay they cannot get married because of sexual orientation.  Next thing all those nutty religious marraige is for kids people will be telling infertile couples cannot be married.  Of all the inane and rediculous comments.  here is how that statement should read (at least my view)  EVERY CHILD HAS THE RIGHT TO A LOVING FAMILY NO MATTER WHO THE PARENTS ARE!

You Butt Munchers do not have the Rights to Children and the States should step in and take away any Rights provided other Citizens and send you to GITMO or Iraq!!! Saudi Arabia would Love You maybe then they'd quit doing their Camels!! They'd probably whack it off and Plug your Holes or just behead your Idiocy!!! Love is eternal for all Life and Lust is your Incestuous Inbred Mentalities!!!

Careful.  What the constitution is protecting is children.  They should have the right to be raised by a Mom and a Dad.  They also shouldn't feel that they are going to have to pick thier sexuality someday.  This is not a Civil Rights issue.

You don't "choose" your sexuality. It's not like waking up in the morning and deciding what you're going to wear or how you're going to spend your day. Why would someone choose to live a life where they are hated by strangers and told that they are not equal to someone who straight? My mom told me once that she could deal with me being gay better than she could deal with my brother being an addict because she knew that I had no choice in the matter, yet my brother did choose to do drugs.

A. Colombo - It is a civil rights issue. Children are not a requirement of marriage. Nor is marriage a requirement to have children. At least when two gay people have kids, it was never a mistake.

Children have nothing to do with it unless you consider the children of gay families who are unable to have married parents.

Columbo -

Thank you for joining this debate, you have clearly researched this very well.  Children do deserve a mom and a dad, and I do believe that single people should avoid adoption. 

It's hard enough to raise kids with two loving parents.  To intentionally raise child in a single-parent family is irresponsible.   Obviously circumstances happen beyond our control - people die, marriages fail.  But the fact doesn't change - kids need a Mom and a Dad, not two moms or two dads, and we should be exploring ways to make marriage more stable. 

Marriage SHOULD be a requirement to have children.  They need it and deserve it.

A mother and a father? Are you AWARE of the divorce rate in this country? By your logic, divorce ought to be outlawed, too. Grow a brain.

I was raised by a single mother, and I don't feel there was anything lacking in my life because my father wasn't there. I'm GLAD he wasn't--the man was a grade-A bastard, and if given the choice of him or no father at all, gee, what do you think I would pick?

All children have the right to be loved, to be brought up in a stable family--regardless of what sort of family that might be. My husband and I have two roommates who we also  consider 'family', despite the fact that they are not in any way biologically related to us. Is that wrong? I think not. I was raised by my mother and grandmother, largely lacking any male presence in my life, and I turned out okay. A friend of mine was raised by two gay men, and SHE turned out okay. Are you noticing a pattern here? People don't need the standard, 1950's, white-bread 'nuclear family' to be happy or loved. John Lennon said 'love is all you need', and he was right. The sooner America learns that, the better.

I agree. Children should have the protection of the constitution. They have the least rights of all as they are not responsible for their parents. They are the ones who can feel the wrath of their parents and also their peers. Even those who are adopted face this dilemma.Many of them wind up in single parent homes through no fault of their own. Grandparents take care of their grand children as well. Children who are abused or are left to therir own devices must be protected. Is this not a civil rights issue?? Why do you think single parents can't take care of their children?? Why are YOU making it a requirement for two to raise kids?? With the divorce rate as high as it is what would YOUR solution be to taking care of them?? Sexuality is not a "chosen" issue. You're obviously ignorant in this area. I was attracted to men when I was 10 years old!!!! To the one who stupidly suggests that marriage be a REQUIREMENT in order to have kids, what would you do with the kids who are born as a result of one night stands, rape and anything else of this manner?? Are you really that moronic to suggest this??? What kind of 'RESEARCH" did Columbo do for this post?? You're quite uninformed and idiotic!!!

a.columbo what you are saying is absolutely ridiculous and is a perfect example of what is wrong with the fundamentalist way of life -- which is not Christianith altho it does do a lot of damage to God and actual Christianity or spirituality -- fundamentalists are so convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong, which i guess would be ok except the fundamnetalists go to great lengths to force everyone to their way of life

you do not question you do think deeply you do not gather information you just spout nonsense someone tells you that on a very surface level sounds good but is not good and actually makes no sense

chuildren are not hurt by being raised in a loving gay family -- God know gay families can't mess up worse than heterosexual families have and maybe gay families are more careful and more conscious than we are - they do not take their family "rights" for granted

how can anyone be so mean-spirited as to hurt an entire group of people and try to withhold rights from those people?

and for those who do it in the name of God or in the name of the 'children' it is just a sin

TSz: gay marriage does not destablize "traditional" marriage.  children deserve loving and kind parents.  there are so many children in our dependancy systems who have no one at all.  gay couples increase the number of parentless children who will be adopted and in my opinion this is a good thing.

you have your ideal as of course you have the right, but your ideal completely disregards the reality that many children face in this country.  as i see it, someone with your opinion would argue that a child adopted by a single parent or gay couple would be better off left in a group/foster home hoping for your ideal concept of a family.

A. Columbo and TSz.:  Do you actually live in the United States?  My Constitution (U.S. OR California) does not provide a right to children to be raised by a mother and a father.  Prop. 8 will not miraculously grant that right, either.  Did someone tell you it will?

It may keep some adopted children from being raised in a family with MARRIED parents.  It will not keep gay people from adopting children, just insure that the gay people who adopt will be legally single.

You must be so proud.  But not very logical.

   Don't believe in gay marriage? Don't get one.  Nobody is taking that choice away from you.

   And who said anything about forcing churches to marry gays?  We're talking about legally recognized marriage here, not religiously recognized.

then why the law suits against the churches for not agreeing to marry them. dont change the piont there

You speak of gays forcing their opinions on you but aren’t you doing the same by rejecting them the right to live and lead their lives by their own beliefs?

Gays trying to force their choices on YOU?  ON YOU???  I don't see gay churches spending millions of dollars to persuade voters to restrict the rights of others.  I don't see gay couples trying to restrict the rights of straight couples to marry or adopt.  Who is forcing choices on others?  That would be, as it has been throughout history, religious bigots.

Not one of these gay marriage ban votes had anything to do with churches. It was to ban same sex unions. Everything is a civil union to the courts. So now you cannot be legally joined if your relationship consists of two people of the same sex.

What I don't understand is the same political party that says the government should be small, stay out of our bedrooms, actually wants to legislate what goes on there. And I'll point out that 50 years ago, you had people saying the exact same thing about interracial marriage. It would ruin marriage to let a black man/black woman marry a white woman/white man. Way to bring the hate back around! I'm sure your ancestors would be so proud of you.

And to anyone who points to some research that says being gay is a choice, I can point out about 999 cases of research that say the exact opposite. I also note that many of the people claiming it's a choice are religious nuts posing as scientists. I'm not convinced a one of them didn't come to the conclusion first and then found nice outliers that fit their conclusion. That's actually pretty easy to do if you have no ethics.

I honestly can't understand why people even care. People always say how gay marriage will ruin the institution of marriage. How? Prove it! Someone come here and put in a LOGICAL explanation of why. Don't get emotional, don't quote the @!$%#ing bible, give me an intelligent explanation of why gay marriage will ruin marriage. If you people really cared about marriage, you'd vote to make divorce illegal. That's what ruins marriage. :-P

Gays aren't trying to force thier opinions on anyone. It is, or was, currently legal to have a same sex marriage in some states. Proposition 8 is a law banning those rights. All they are doing is fighting to retain their rights. It is others who are trying to force their beliefs onto them.

gays are not living according to their beliefs they are living according to the way God sent them to earth

and who are we humans to judge

all we can do is make life as comfortable for all -- that is God's way

Hey Ms Larkin NEWS FLASH not everyone believes in the Judeo/Christian version of how the world started.  Lets not bring your mythology into a debate on civil liberties and rights.  This decision is equivalent to banning interacial marraiges. 

I see, attack a book becuase you have NO real points to argue with. You are no different than the preachers who twist God's word for personal gain. Molly. stop drinking the koolaid of the liberal left. Most people are not homophobic, they are homocritical. Give it up to the gays, they know how to pervert a historic moment that goes a long way for the healing of this country.

Denny, Molly made a few real points.... "The bible says a lot of things that arent true" and "It also says slavery is okay which it isnt" and "Not everyone in this world is Christian"... How can those not be valid arguments?

Given your obvious bias against gays... What happened? Did a gay hit on you? "OMG, I've been hit on by a gay guy! Gross!"

Oh, and one more thing.... That book called "The Bible" is JUST A BOOK!

Denny:  How does denying some citizens the rights, responsibilities and protections of marriage go any way, never mind "a long way for the healing of this country"?  What is it you think has injured or sickened our country, that refusing equal rights to some will heal?

denny g what is the historic moment that goes a long way to healing this country?

that would be to ALLOW gays to marry not to withhold that right from them

and the gays are not the ones who tacked this proposition on to the presidential election ballots i assure you -- that would be the sinning bigots who pretend to follow God but actually follow only their own egos and fears and hatred and who are intent on forcing their fears, egos and hatreds on all of us -- which is a sin....etc.

i say once again the constitution grants equal rights to all

the constitution is never to be used to withhold rights it is an instrument to confer and protect rights

the fundamentalists of the world are always trying to destroy decency and god and the world...

Prove to me that adam or eve existed, yet alone god.  Prove to me that god created all of this.  Until you have scientific empirical evidence, do not preach about god. 

didi:

I've seen some pretty disgusting behavior displayed by heterosexuals in public, but that's considered acceptable, right?  Wrong!  I don't want to see anyone, straight or gay, playing "Tonsil Hockey" in public!  And could you show me where I can find the "Social Behavior Code" that you so ignorantly refer to???  LMAO!!!  I would love to read it with my own two eyes!  Please give us intelligent people a break, will you?

Our American forefathers created a government to PROTECT the rights of minorities.  Their intention was not a government run by the majority to slaughter the minority. If you woke up tomorrow and 51% o f America was Gay, would it be ok for the Gay majority to out law hetero marriages? Of course not. So everyone, JUST BE FAIR.

Jack 375934,

  I'm glad that you are the product of thousands of years of belief in God.  Or wait, they were all just stupid ignorant fools, compared to your higher enlightened state.

Honestly, does it seem delusional to you at all for you to discount thousands of years of history as blind, ignorant foolishness for trusting in God?

Nobody is asking straight people to become gay. Nobody has demanded that right-wing fanatical zealots change their hysterical, shrieking ways one little tiny bit. You have every right to gnash your teeth and proclaim doom and gloom for the rest of your life. What you don't have the right to do (at least you shouldn't) is shove your puritan pulpit into my vagina or my gay friend's anus. If organized christianity wants to dictate public policy, start paying taxes. Until then, keep your doomsday rhetoric in the chapel where it belongs.

Or, better yet, you could just mind your own business.  It always amazes me... for people who are so opposed to and disgusted by homosexuality, y'all sure spend an awful lot of time thinking and talking about it.  Not everyone thinks like you, talks like you, looks like you, prays like you, lives like you (thank God)...   Get over it and do something productive with your time.

This is the voice of ignorance deciding the rights of human beings in this country. I assume being black is a "genetic defect" to you too then?

Let the votes dicktat the results of my ingnorance.. NO GAY MARRIAGES

the didnt choose to be black. brown didnt choose to be brown. GAYs choose to be that way. and for those of you like 911 girl who think we are all imposing our wills on you. The people are speaking. Its not just a person here and a person there its our socity saying NO we dont want it to be normal to be gay.. ONce again as i siad before i dont care if gays marry. I dont want it taught that its ok and normal. Free country do what the hell you like . You only have to answer to one man in the end!

IF EVERYONE DID MIND THERE BIZNESS WE WOULDNT BE HAVEING THIS COVERSATION

You seem to be letting your poor grammar and spelling show your ignorace.

Why say that "blacks didn't choose to be black" or that "browns (huh?) didn't choose to be brown" and then completely contradict yourself by somehow saying that people choose to be gay?  If you aren't going to do a comparison, then why introduce the first part?  You're not too smart are you? 

Funny how there seems to be a pattern I'm noticing here, take this election for instance. In the states that McCain won, in many of them Obama won the counties with bigger cities, that is the educated urban/suburban centers of the state.  Stupid people vote Republican.  There seems to be the same trend with the people voting for or against Prop 8 in California, the more educated areas of the state are voting No, while the more rural (aka uneducated hicks) are voting yes.  If you want hard evidence, check out the LAtimes.com, they have an interactive map, if you can figure out how to use it.

I read a post on a particular site that had a very good point, they said that in these areas that are voting on banning gay marriage (and in the US in general according to polls) the majority of people voting for a ban are in the older crowd (predominantly 65+) and the age group 18-35 are mostly against banning it.  The poster's point was this, perhaps all it takes it time, once all the bigots die then perhaps there will be a civil rights boom in this country.  Unless of course they can successfully program all their kids and grandkids to believe without reason, logic, or proof in this nonsense.

The end fact is this, our country was founded with the idea of escaping religious prosecution, to be able to freely believe without penalty.  Yet we see the self proclaimed patriots showing what true hypocrits they are by attempting to force their particular religion on ALL of America, and onto State and Federal law.  Ever heard of the seperation of Church and State?  It exists for a reason, to maintain that civil law is not based on any religious doctrine.  Yet the hypocrits want to undo exactly why this country was formed, by creating a religion based government, where all Americans are forced to follow the doctrines and laws of Christianity.

How can you defend that?

mike 696577

maybe you didnt understand because im tried and am typing poorly or maybe it is because im stupid. At least i know that man+man = sick. Women+women=sick thats my god given right and as  an american to CHOOSE  sence we are free here. what i am saying here and i may be backing myself into a corner is i dont belive (my opionion) that gay is ok. A black person doesnt choose to be black he is already black agreed? i thought so.  Now i belive gay is a choice.I dont belive gay is something you are born into.

  I did see above that someone wrote that some ppl with a genetic disorder had great pians choosing to be stright therfore gave into his life style choice, maybe in the future there will be a medical break through to help these poor ppl who have theses urges to be gay. However is it a normal choice to be gay? I dont think it is or everyone would be gay. and we would be voting on banning man woman marriages or is that what you want?

Oh I understood you, it was just difficult.  I'm leaning toward the being stupid idea, based on you "knowing" that homosexual relations are "sick."  Sure it's your right to believe whatever you want, as it should be.

Perhaps it would help if you ever met an actual gay person, you will see that these "great pains" that are gone through tend to be due to the fact that people are so hateful and cannot simply accept a person for who they are, especially close family.

By the standard definition of normal, no, it isn't normal to be gay.  However, you're making the assumption that people can be clumped into a "normal" category, when truthfully you can't really come up with a "normal" American or a "normal" human for that matter.  Try it, you will fail.  What is normal?  There are so many things about people that make them different, you can't say what is normal.   People vary in their shape, size, color, religious beliefs, ethnicity, level of education, etc.  The more you say that someone should conform to your version of normalcy the more you sound like a Nazi, they had their perfect version of humanity.

That last line makes no sense, no two people are the same, so why would one thing that is considered "normal" be expected to exist in everyone else?

Do things in this order....Think -> Type.

Wow Mike(plusnumbers) you make me really want to change my name. Let me count the offenses. 1) "Stupid people vote Republican." Your reasoning for this? The fact that  the "educated" urban/suburban areas voted Democrat. I'm wondering how many inner city households have a college educated mother and father voting every election, or if you canvassed the cities to figure out how many minorities were voting for Obama simply because of the color of his skin?

2) "...while the more rural (aka uneducated hicks)..." Again, you have a logical error in over generalization. Virginia Tech, a prominent engineering institute, is in a rural area. Would you defing all the college students attending there uneducated hicks?

3) In your 4th paragraph, I sure hope all the old bigots pass on their strong work ethic (learned during the Great Depression), desire for learning (they helped bring on the Information Age in the 70s and 80s), their patriotism (winning the war against facism and later the Korean war and halting the spread of communism), and their expierence of the real civil rights movement back in the 1960s when they succeeded in defeating the policies of a segregated society.

4) Where do you think our legal and moral system came from? Thou shalt not bear false witness (lying)? Thou shalt not commit adultery? Old Testament. Should we scrap those laws against lying because God said no lying?

5) You'd like to think that Christians are ignoring the separation of Church and State? What of the State interfering in our beliefs? Doctors are being told in CA that they have to treat the patient regardless of their moral and religious values. Catholic Charities used to run an adoption center, but was told by the state of Mass. that they have to serve homosexual couples, regardless of the Catholic view of homosexuality as a sin.

-Signed A Sophomore at College

(Go to npr.org and search When Gay Rights and Religious Liberties Clash)

there is no normal person ill agree.if gay was normal we would not be here today now would we. Hence I say gay is not normal. Now its obvious who progress's the human species and its not gay men or gay women. should they have the right to marry in my opinion no. But in all species of life thier is a small percentage of homosexuality correct. i agree with that but i also conculd that its not normal to be gay or we would cease to exist so i cant see whats stupid in that. stop fighting it im only speaking the turth and giving my opinion no need to insult me with slander i dont see anyone esle doing it here really. but that only goes to show who we are dealing with here.

I dont hate homosexuals i only feel that it violates my reliognal beliefs. i guess that makes me stupid  I can live with that

By the way why would you asume that i dont know any homosexuals.. Did i say that in any of my comments or are you just so smart you know everything. Im pretty sure i know a few and they seem pretty happy to me.

Good, I hope you do, you make Mikes everywhere cringe.  Here is my numbered response to your post.

1) Yes its a fact that stupid people vote Republican.  You should take note that I didn't say that all Republicans are stupid, just that dumb people vote that way.  It's like saying all squares are rectangles, it's different than saying all rectangles are squares. There are facts to correlate the way people vote and their level of education, look it up.  For starters, the LATimes.com has data that shows that areas in California that have less than 10% of the county population with a Bachelors Degree all (or nearly all) voted for Bush last time around.  Where as the areas that had more than 15% having at least a Bachelors was the opposite, they didn't vote for Bush last time around.  And it's not just California, check out some other sites and data, it's across the board.  And about the color of the skin thing, wrong, simply wrong.  Data shows that in this election, Obama pulled MORE white voters than the last 5 democratic nominees, he had plenty of white voters.

2) Generally college students vote democrat, while Virginia Tech is in a rural area, that has nothing to do with where the graduates move.  Again, there is data to back this, it quite easy to find.

3) Not all the people that participated in those events were bigots, you missed the point.  My grandfather was in World War II, my father fought in Iraq.  You can pass on traits that better your children's lives, but there is no need to force your personal religious beliefs on your kids.  Let them choose for themselves.  So you're saying that it was a bunch of bigots that started the civil rights movement?  You're a moron, that's contradictory.  The bigots were the ones they were fighting against genius.

4) Our legal and moral system came from a variety of places.  I'm not discounting religions effects on morality.  But to say it invented it is sheer stupidity.  Was everyone who couldn't get their hands on a Bible or hear a sermon all canabilistic savages?  Believe it or not, Native Americans had a complex system of laws many years before the landing of the Europeans.  Christianity did not invent morality, it simply guided it for a portion of the populous.  People still got pissed if you killed their buddy back before the Old Testament.

5) You apparently don't understand the situation clearly.  Christian's are blatantly ignoring the seperation, trying to write Christian law into civil law in fact.  Doctors should have to treat patients, if their parent is too stupid to know their child is dying then it would be murder if they did nothing, manslaughter at least.  Doctors take an oath, "Do no harm," and doing nothing when a person requires help is harmful.  You realize that the Catholic Charities was serving gay and lesbian households VOLUNTARILY for a while after the anti-discrimination law was in effect, they were giving older foster children to families on their own.  It was the Vatican that told them to shut down, not the state, the state just said they would lose public funding since it was discriminatory, they weren't being forced to do anything.  This had nothing to do with the more recent gay marriage.  You should note that the Mormon Church still operates in Mass. despite this, they just don't serve gay and lesbian households.

Ooohhh, a sophmore, lemme know when you graduate.

Well againstu, I'm sure your gay friends think you're a dick for your personal beliefs. 

Ever wonder if maybe gay is just a variation, one that isn't bad, just there.  Some people have six fingers, it's not a bad thing, just not the same as the majority.

And what if homosexuality is nature's (or lets say God) way of curbing overpopulation?  You reference the bible as saying that it's sinful, well then apparently there are sinful animals out there despite them not having the level of brain functions we have.  And isn't there some crap about never cutting your beard and sacrificing goats in there? 

Oh, that's right, Christians in this country (and the world over) like to pick and choose what's important in the bible.  They take the stuff they agree with and say that it's sinful, but then all the rest is just casually ignored as being a "metaphor" or just optional, or they will occassionally just add or remove stuff (ie. the Catachism of the Catholic Church, purgatory, divorce, etc).  Consistancy is not Christianity's strongpoint, or else a free ride to heaven would put you out about $1,000.

Mike you are not doing the gay communities any favors by your intellectuall "comments". You sir are a liar and a penis. Quit twisting the truth. Put down the liberal koolaid your prefessor gave you in college and stop being a bigot.

You are a bigot hope you're proud of yourself

,

So let me get this right.. you are saying that stupid people vote Democrat.. and you used the statistic of saying that 10% of Bachelors in California voted Republican ,which it should be noted has always voted Democrat, so in all reality, probably only 10% of people in the Peoples Socialist Repubic of California voted Republican at all, so you point is mulled.

How about your masses of Uneducated High School Drop outs that voted Democrat?

Oh lets keep going, while I'm at it, Cities in general (I did say in General didn't I?) usually Vote Democrat, don't know why, but they do, and cities also in general have a higher High School drop out rate then Rural Areas.

So there are your masses of Uneducated flocking to the Democrats for the Welfare and all those other little extras.

I would ask you what you got in College, but then again I'm on a screen on a computer, and so are you, thus anything that you say can be fabricated and fake.

And your right, the constitution does say Seperation of Church and State, but don't you know the basis of that? No, probably not because your one of those that take the meanings of words and twists them. It was designed so the USA would not have a system like England like the Church of England which everyone had to attend and be a part of, in which case to point this out, I would like to say the simple fact that the US was created by a bunch of settlers who we're religious outcast of England.

And anyways, MARRIAGE was, is, and will always be a RELIGIOUS Idea. No problem giving the Civil Unions and the Such, just not Marriage.

Wait, now before you go on saying they are the same, they arn't. Read the Bible some time, though maybe you wont be able to understand that after all the Liberal Arts training you recieved in College.. you know they call them liberal Arts for a reason right? No probably not. And now your probably giong to call me an Idiot, and probably pull statistics from somewhere off the Internet, which I would like to remind you is off the Internet, and thus could also be Fabricated, and anyways, we will continue to pull up statistics, and niether of us will stop, and it will all be incessant statistic fighting, and in the end, we will fail to change eithers mind.

And anyways, trying to fight an Instituition which has existed for Millenia, not just an Institution, but an Idea, and some peoples way of life is Impossible. You can never stop an Idea.

But you want to fix this whole damn issue? Get rid of the extra Benefits that anyone gets for being Married, and BAM, no need for gays to get married, which is the whole reason this Argument is going on, money and benefits.

But no, you all want to mess with Religion to bend it to your views of rightness, which to you is right, but to others is not, and your all so hell bent on changing everyone else, both sides.

So instead of Both sides shaking hands and making up, let us just meet, tell each other to 'Screw Off' and we will all feel good at the end of the day.

Hey Mike-696577, By reading your comments would I be correct in assuming you do not belive in God or the Bible. I have some friends that are gay no big deal but I don't think gay marraige should be allowed, it is agaisnt the church and God, and peoples opinions are there own that does'nt make them dumb or stupid. You have your opinion and that does'nt make you wrong or right but all of your comments does make you a hatefull person. So let me ask you this if it was ok to be gay why does it take people so long to come out of the closet,  I mean if thats the way you were born it shouldn't matter right. Its a life choice just like some people prefer blondes over brunetts its all a life choice and im not saying people are wrong for being what they are just keep out of the church and don;t force your will on others.  Oh and by the way the friends that I have that are gay no how I feel about it and we are still friends, and for them it was a choice not something they where born into. Also you should'nt talk bad about the bible or God if you don't know what your talking about.  Have you ever read the bible?

Other Mike, that reference to shaving you beard, haircuts etc.? Look it up in context. That particular part was in reference to a pagan custom of removing the beard and other hair in the fasion of what their "gods" were thought to look like. Christians no longer have to sacrifice goats as Christ was the final sacrifice to pay for our wrongs.

 I am sorry if I or anyone else anger you by our beliefs but we believe it is our choice to hold them and you have no power to change that. If you present  your view in a reasonable manner, without calling one a bigot, ignorant hick, liar, or other name when you do not know one personally, you may be able to convince one that the other perspectives have their one points in their favor. You will win no points in attacking someone personally.

As for the college, I happen to be taking my time. I'm on a track to persue a career in registered nursing. I am not gay, this is what I feel God is leading me to. Per your request, I will let you know when I finish.

(By the way Michael is a Biblical name. He's the archangel.)

So where do we send the spelling and grammar challenged like yourself?

Mike-696577 (not MikeW)

Get off your high horse!  Should we all bow to you because of your enlightnened liberal state?  Your comments are unfounded and inflamatory, and it's people like you that make me want to forget about the issues and yes on Prop 8 just to show you that your demeaning attitude towards people hurts your cause, not helps it.

Wow, some interesting responses guys.  Lemme take a moment to respond to each of you since you took the time out of your day to respond to me...

Denny - If you could explain how I'm hurting the gay community more than these people who voted "Yes on 8" or the people who sit at the funerals of gay people holding signs about them going to hell, then that would be fantastic.  And I'm not a liar, I am actually more honest than you.  And while the college that I attended was a liberal school, I never once had a professor state his/her personal beliefs on any civil or social issues, so there was no Kool Aid involved.

Sean - Did you read my post?  What the hell are you even saying in that first paragraph.  Try the site I mentioned (Latimes.com) and look at the map of California on this issue, it shows the county statistics.  Of which included the fact that most counties that voted for Bush and voted yes on 8 have a population where less than 10% have a Bachelors degree, LESS than 10%.  And the areas with the population having 15% or MORE with a bachelors degree didn't vote for Bush last time, and voted NO on 8.  Not sure how you read that wrong.  Cities tend to be surrounded by highly populated suburban areas, which tend to have lower drop out rates and higher college graduate resident rates.  Rural areas may or may not have better drop out rates (I don't know the figures), but they do in fact have a lower number of college graduates, and its called "Higher Education" for a reason, it goes beyond simple education into social/economic/civil/etc. issues.  And the settlers wished to be ruled by a civil government, not a religious body, which is exactly my point, don't push religious docrtine into civil law, which marriage falls under (who gives out marriage licenses?).  And for your information I have read the Bible, in fact I was raised Roman Catholic, I was baptised, had my first Communion, and was Confirmed, I chose my own path after this.  And the degrees I received were not liberal arts, and not phsychology or sociology either.  You're incorrect to assume marriage has always been religious in nature, it's not.  The institute of marriage predates recorded history, they had marriages in Greek and Roman times prior to Christianity taking hold in Europe, and largely in the earlier times the church had far less to do with marriages than it does today.  Don't believe me, look it up, it's not hard to find.  And isn't the issue we are dealing with CIVIL marriages?  Or did you not realize that, the church still has the authority to marry who they please, and if there are cases of gay couples suing the church, they should be thrown out of court, because the real issue is the civil issue, not the religious one.  Never stop an idea?  Really, well how about the various religions that existed for centuries that have gone by the wayside?  Get rid of the benefits of marriage?  What?  Why the hell would anyone want that?  That's a terrible idea, that would harm tons of families, what side are you on here?  The only thing I want to change about any religion is it's self-given right to force it's set of beliefs on everyone else, that goes for any religion, not just Christianity.

Dragonthor - You'd be right to assume that.  What makes people dumb is when they think they have the right to infringe on others rights, and demean them for no reason other than their personal religious beliefs.  Are you seriously asking why it takes people so long to come out?  Have you looked at this board?  There is a great deal of hate, and it can be magnified in the early years like high school, where kids are already cruel.  People don't come out generally out of fear of rejection or persecution, or out of a lack of understanding of themselves.  If a person is told that being gay is evil and unnatural by their family, do you expect them to simply tell them and risk losing the support of their family, some kids lose them entirely in this country.  It's a horrible possibility that they must face, rejection vs. realization of one's self.  A parent should love their child no matter what.  Either your friends are lying to you, confused, or you made them up.  Perhaps they fear the rejection that would come by coming into conflict with your religious beliefs.  Again, yes I have read a Bible.  Have you?  What happen to God being the judge, not man, or what happened to Jesus wanting people to love one another not hate, did he spread hate or tolerance and love, you tell me.

MikeW - Interesting how Christians can stop doing stuff, or remove customs once they seem to be outdated.  The Church likes to make it's own rules, picking and choosing what is enforced.  Good, the world needs more nurses.  And I realize that Michael was named after the Archangel, but what does that have to do with anything?  I didn't name myself.  If so, I might have picked a cooler name like Gabriel or Raphael or something.

Columbo - Is it wrong to be enlightened?  What about my comment are inflammatory or unfounded?  My demeaning attitude is equal to the demeaning attitude that forms in support of this ban.  Or should I, the non-religious one, be the first (in the issue in general, not necessarily on this forum) to "turn the other cheek."  How ironic would that be?

Iwill patiently wait for the angry responses...

Mike-696577:  As an "ignorant" retired college professor of psychology if you are waiting for "angry responses", it would appear that was your main reason for the lengthy posting.  It has been stated repeatedly that being "gay" should not make any difference in the "equal" department.  You are not going to convince some people of this fact. Arguments of this nature have no end, and no winners.  That being said, I will state the following:  There should be TOTAL separation of church and state - TAX church income, and any real estate they own - period.  True "Christians" would not be on this discussion judging any one for any reason.  Churches have NO place in the dirty world of politics and need to keep their mouth shut on political issues.  "Gay marriage" should not even be a political issue - they should be allowed to do as they please, just as "heterosexual marriages" do as they please.  I do not recall seeing anything in politics trying to "legislate" heterosexual marriage, and/or divorce.  For you to "judge" all "Christians" as a group is no more right, than others "judging" gay marriage.  No one died and left any of us "JUDGE".  To criticize another for not being adept at typing and/or spelling is extremely arrogant and rude for any one to do.  Not every one has had the privilege of "higher education".  I noted some grammatical errors in your posting  - does that mean you are ignorant?? NO it does NOT.  I do not live in California, and considering it's makeup, I am surprised this ban passed.  It will be appealed, and probably overturned - as it should be.  Kindness and understanding on your part would certainly go a long way in accomplishing what you believe to be right. You have the ability to "write" - use that ability to further the cause you believe in - don't justify the beliefs of others by name calling and criticism.  Just some advice from one who has walked here for a long time.  Thank you.

--

Your statement that marriage has always been a religious institution is ridiculous.  Up until quite recently marriage was a civil contract by which a woman was sold to a husband.  He literally owned her and her possessions.  So before you go claiming the institution of marriage in the name of the Christian Church, you really ought to do your research.

i dont care about the votes. so what the majority voted against it. but its not a matter of being unacceptable or not. being gay isn't "unacceptable". its very accepted. by many people. especially the large population OF GAYS. you cant be kicked out of class for being gay. you dont go into separate bathrooms if your gay. how are we unacceptable? walking around naked is unacceptable. shouting loud profanities in public is unacceptable. and hey, god made me didn't he? god accepts everyone no matter who they are and what they've done right? theres only one adam and one eve and they just happen to be heterosexual. but he also made every other single human being on this planet.

Just for the record:  God does NOT make mistakes.  For a fact God did make you and the rest of us are NOT to judge you for any reason.  All here would do well to adhere to that simple fact.

Erm...what?  So if I deem religious fundamentalism...or hell why not go whole hog?...CHRISTIANITY socially unacceptable does that mean I can outlaw those too?  I mean really, think before you type please.

Been there, done that.  Now your turn to learn how to read.

When I hear someone say that homosexuality is against God's will, it makes me laugh because it's usually the same people who believe that God doesn't make mistakes. If that's the case, then wouldn't it stand to reason that maybe, just maybe, homosexuality IS actually something God made? If God doesn't make mistakes, why would He allow this? I believe that homosexuality is God's way of population control and most certainly not a mistake.

CaliTexan,

i know you probably don't care but I thought I would tell you the popular theory I have heard about why Gay people exist.

Each one of us is a child of God sent to earth to make choices in life.  Choices to be a liar a thief and in some cases to be Gay or not.

Now I have met young children who were very Feminine or Butch at very young ages and as they grew older indeed were Gay.  I do not believe Gays are a mistake of God.  Being Gay is the challenge they are faced with.  Fighting the urges of Homosexuality is a terrible inner battle and I believe it to be a near impossible battle.  But I have know Gay people who did fight the inclination and were successful.  It never went away but they developed the will power to step away from it.

I don't want you to miss understand me I don't care if your Gay or not but I do care that your understand the idea behind the religious rights belief.  And also to understand why we do not believe God made a mistake.  We don't believe it is a mistake we believe it is your personal challenge.

Now I don't judge those who couldn't resist the challenge.  The lord know I have many challenges I fail at.  It is just that homosexuality is not one of those challenges.  When I was a teenager I couldn't understand why our curch allowed Homosexuals to attend.  My father looked at me like I was stupid and rightfully so.  He then said if all their doing wrong in their life is being gay there probably better off in God's eyes than you and me.  That was all it took for me to welcome Gay people to church.

The Gay marriage Ban is totally based on religious beliefs make no mistake.  It is unfair but in this world where nothing is sacred I have to support the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman.

I can support civil union but marriage is a fundamental religious institution.  Civil Union to me is just a political statement and a legal right.  Your right; it infringes on your rights but to support your right I would be infringing in my own religious beliefs.  And in that lies the problem.  Your rights or my Religion.  Of course I am going to pick my religion.  Sorry

The institue of marriage predates realiable recorded history, and it predates Christianity.  Marriage is a state union, not just a religious one, that's what this ban is about, the state one.  No one is forcing RELIGIOUS MARRIAGES of homosexual couples, this is in regards to secular state marriages. 

Why is it that so many religious people seem to think that their religion invented everything?  Guess what, it didn't.

In response to the those who would misconstrue what this country was founded upon and the Word of God I say this. #1 read your history, learn it, understand it. This country was founded on people who believed the Word of God but, had many challenges understanding it. The fact that we have just elected a black man as Presdient of these United States is proof that we finally have come to the realization that the principals this country was founded on have been realized and understood... everyone created equal with an opportunity to succeed. To that end, we are in agreement.

That being said we must also come to understand that God did not intend for men to be with men and/or women to be with women. He created man and woman and said be fruitful and multiply... He did make the mistake, we did with the fall of Adam. In our fallen state we became open to all sorts of things that He never intended for us. But, He also sent us His Son Jesus, who came that we may be restored in God.

What does that all mean... it means that God did not intend for men to marry men, or women to marry women. He intended for a man and woman to enter into the institution of marriage that He created and not the things they were given over to after the fall of man. What's funny to me is how people liken the rights of homosexuals to the oppression of minorities and women. The two are not the same. No where in the Bible are black people or women degraded. Sure, some people decided to misconstrue the Word to justify slavery, but in the end it had to be rectified. Now we as a society of human beings collectively are so confused and sensitive about things it's crazy. Right is right and wrong is wrong. I will not condemn anyone with my mouth, I simply know the truth in regard to what I believe and in Whom I believe.

Know this... America was founded on Christian beliefs and principals whether many people want to acknowledge it or not. Who has anything to say about why the government and certain institutions seek to stop Christians from preaching and teaching what we believe. The Bible teaches us to love the sinner and hate the sin. It also teaches us that when we deviate from what we know is right and call evil good we put ourselves in the receiving line for people to impose their beliefs upon others and try to justify acts of violence against others. God has said neither, only that we show people and teach them about His grace, His love, and His mercy that when they understand these things and come to know Him, then they will turn away from that which He has called abominable.

My prayer for the U.S. is that we become a people of wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. That we would not become so wise in book smarts and philisophical teachings that we forget from whence we came and Who really is in charge. God is in everything, everywhere. Our forefathers didn't think it robbery to include Him on our currency and the fact that they trusted Him. Perhaps we should learn to do the same.

I am in a quandry. If marriage is a religious issue then I, as a heterosexual atheist, can not justify getting married. If marriage is a religious issue then do you recognize marriages between people belonging to other religions as equally legal? How is banning gay marriage based on religious ideologies not completely unconstitutional?

And, if it is not a religious issue then how can you deny it to people?

Well that is where the rub is Mike.  If you believe in the bible you believe in Adam and Eve and the marriage God instituted.  So we "Christians" believe God created the institution.  Not necessarily our religion but god who is a fundamental part of our "RELIGION."

So Guess What:

OUR RELIGION DIDN'T CREATE MARRIAGE OUR GOD DID!!!!!!

Maybe that sheds some light on the issue for you since you seem to be unable to understand our point of view.

Well spoken quinaultcountry, God is the authur of Marriage. We as humans have no right to change the meaning of Marriage, which states:  is between a Man and Women!

I appreciate your attempt to explain your religious views, quinaultcountry.  I think I do understand at least the ones you have tried to explain.

Now I will try to shed a little light on the issue for you, since you seem to be unable to understand my point of view (which has a pretty good legal basis--the Constitution of the United States).  You wrote:

The Gay marriage Ban is totally based on religious beliefs make no mistake.

Nobody made a mistake about that, it is crystal clear.  Here's the thing: your religious beliefs do not belong in OUR Constitution.  The state isn't supposed to regulate your religious beliefs, but that only works as a rule if it isn't modified to impose YOURS on everyone else, either.  I understand that you think nobody else's religious views are valid, but that is NOT enshrined in the Constitution.

Furthermore, you do seem to have a bit of trouble remembering that the ban on gay marriage is banning CIVIL marriages.  You can have a completely exclusionary, and hateful (or not) position on the SPIRITUAL state of marriage based on your religion, WITHIN your religious institution(s) and all your co-religionists can go along with it, and you can all assure each other that you are righteous and right with your God.  But your religious rules do not belong in our LAWS. 

And whoever posted (again) that "Civil Union" conveys the identical rights as "Marriage", no, it doesn't.  One of my lawyers is gay, and he and his partner got dinged over $6,000 in taxes that they wouldn't have if their union had been a marriage.  He mentioned some other differences, but that is the one that sticks in my mind.

You're absolutely right Dharma Girl, Civil Unions aren't the same, they don't equal the same rights, that's why we have this problem to begin with.

And to clarify quinaultcountry, you may believe that God created marriage as practiced by your religion, and you're free to believe that, however, the institution of marriage predates Christianity and Judiasm.  And like Dharma Girl said, we are dealing with the civil, state issue of marriage, that is the rights and such that come with it.  No one is forcing any church to recognize all state marriages, that's not what gay marriage is about.  People are too easily forgetting the difference between state and religious marriage.

Our founding fathers intended the Constitution to exist to protect the rights of individuals in this country, and to ensure that a religious body did not rule our country, that we would be governed by a secular body chosen by the people (or at least an electoral college) to ensure that we wouldn't become like England where a religious body was in control.  All the people voting to ban gay marriage are destroying that principle, by placing religious doctrine within the state system of laws we are in fact allowing religion to dictate policy, which is hypocrital and opposite the Constitution.

I don't care what people believe, I believe in the freedom of religion, it should be everyones right.  But I cannot understand why any one religion should be free to push their beliefs on all people, including people that do not prescribe to those beliefs, that's not Democracy that is the definition of a Theocracy.  So while all the people out there are screaming about the US becoming a Socialist state, we are slowing becoming a Theocracy, which is exactly what England was during the time of the Revolutionary War, and I should point out, close to what Iran is today (technically they are part democracy, which actually makes it closer to us).  This is what people should really be afraid of.

maybe they will maybe they won't, but that attitude will have you right there next to them, if they do.

I can only assume that you're ignorant assumption that homosexuals will go to hell is based on fanatical, Christian views... which I myself am very familiar with as a third generation minister's daughter.

Consider this...  What does it mean to be a "Christian?"  Correction me if I'm wrong, but does that mean that we are supposed to be "Christ like?"  If, in fact, that is the case, then you're way off the mark.  Jesus Christ was a compassionate, loving, accepting, forgiving man who chose to live his life reaching out those who were less fortunate than He.  And, if you'll recall (assuming you've actually read the Bible for yourself rather than having your pastor read it to you, which I realize is a stretch), the only people that Jesus ever became angry with and condemned were the self-righteous, hypocritical, judgemental Pharisees who insisted that everyone ought to be like them.  Hmmm... interesting, don't you think?  DO you think?

I dont want my children exposed to any gay teachings. I dont want my children to be taught that gayness is ok. hence i have them in christian school. we must protect that which is dearest to us

createdx,

Your argument is ridiculous... Burn in hell with a clear conscience?

Honestly, lets look at the issue logically for a second and put the following question to a homosexual...

Is homosexuality caused by nurture or nature?

To answer this question, one must question if they chose to be homosexual, or if they didn't want to be homosexual, but couldn't help it and ended up accepting that is the way they are and acting on it.

If they chose to be homosexual, then is this really about civil rights as everyone is claiming?  Wouldn't a civil rights issue be associated with groups that were unable to choose their minority status, like African Americans, who can't choose what their skin color is.  After all, we all need to be to accept certain consequences for our choices, right?

Now what if they didn't choose?  What if they have always struggled with wanting to fit in and be heterosexual, but they just couldn't do it.  Some have described it to me as a long, painful uphill battle, which they finally realized that they were not going to win and gave in to being homosexual.  Okay, lets consider for a minute... maybe it is nature for you then.  Maybe your genetics just got screwed up in the evolution process somehow.  But let me ask you this:  Would you wish that long painful battle on anyone else?  How about your own adopted kids?  The fact of the matter is, that it cannot be just nature and it cannot be just nurture.  There must be many children that have only partly screwed up genetics and could really go either way... depending on NURTURE.  This point becomes obvious from the fact that children that grow up in homosexual household turn out to be gay MUCH more frequently then a child in a heterosexual home.

So either way, (put personal bias aside), logically,  isn't the issue resolved?  On one hand, marriage, adoption, and teaching homosexuality to children shouldn't be allowed because individuals make choices, and need to accept the consequences that others would prefer that choice not be perpetrated.  On the other hand, I really do feel for your unfortunate genetic circumstances, but would you really want to deny others a pain free life just becuase you didn't get one, by influencing the ones that could go either way to go your route?

A. Columbo,

Who do you think you are assuming that it is a foregone conclusion that homosexuals' genetics are "screwed up?"  Being "different" and being "bad" or "wrong" are not synonymous.  How unbelievably insulting...  And I would venture to guess, based on my own personal experience, that these examples you've provided of the poor, regretful homosexuals that you've spoken with are actually not struggling with accepting who they are because they dislike it or want to be someone different...  They are struggling because the religion they choose to affiliate themselves with tells them their lifestyles are abominable and despicable and that they're going to hell.  I would be conflicted too!  Then again, I saw the light and disassociated myself with that kind of hypocracy and hate long ago... So, if I were gay, I'm fairly certain I'd be enjoying my life just fine.

To influence others to go my route?  So you're assuming that because I am strongly against banning gays from marriage that I am gay? So someone who is straight couldn't possibly feel so strongly about it?  Interesting. I don't believe it is a choiceto be gay or straight. I don't make a conscious choice to be straight. The fact is that women's parts quite honestly are a disgusting thought to me. Unfortunately, for some men they get the same sick feeling in their stomach when the thought of being with a woman is put in their head. So you're saying they choose to be nausiated by that?  they wouldn't choose to be "normal" and have an easier life?  And you think that people can be swayed just from seeing it?  There are gay people all around us. They live together, they go out together.... our kids see them. So if one of your kids turns out to be gay, you will blame it on the fact that they saw someone who was gay?  I think your fears are unfounded. My kids have been around gay people their whole lives, so far 4 of the 5 are not gay.... hard to judge on a 3 year old.... I'll keep ya posted.... I wouldn't disown them if they were, but they didn't ever question their sexuality. By the time they were 4, they knew what they liked when they saw it.

     God speaks against homosexuality in the books of Leviticus and Romans and pretty much throughout the entire bible (if you know where to look), and in Genesis HE destroyed two cities for their wickedness of homosexuality, Sodom and Gomorrah.  The Lord also teaches to hate the sin not the sinner, those of you that are true believers in Christ should know this.  We are sent out to preach the word of God, so let God do the convicting. The Lord opens up all peoples eyes of their own sin and draws them closer to HIM, even homosexuals.

     Gay couples already have the full rights as a true married couple have if they are legally rcorded by a courthouse or county clerk's office and become the significant others legal partner (then they would have the full rights as a true married couple). Gay couples just want the title of "Married". The people that are for Prop. 8 are worried about their 1st ammendment rights being broken "fredom of speech". Because if a religous minister preaches against homosexuality (if the prop. does not pass) then he/she can be brought up on charges and sent to prison (if you don't believe me research it for yourself). And if a church or any other religous facility would deny the rights of a gay couple to get married in their facility then that establishment would lose its license and will no longer be recognized as a non-profit organization and its doors can be locked by the local sheriff's department.

     The people that would lose the most would be the people that are for the Proposition not against it if the proposition does not pass.

911 girl,

"Screwed up genetics" is refering to an evolutionary standpoint.  If humans had evolved with that hard wiring in the first place, then our race would have never existed.

createdx1,

sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasn't refering to you directly.  I was setting up my argument as if talking to a gay person.  It doesn't matter if you are gay or not.

And yes, if my kids were gay, I might suspect that the societal pressures that they grew up in had something to do with that.  I think it would be very naive not to.  I'm willing to bet that your kids have been around straight people a lot more then gay people, so that argument you made doesn't really work.  Also, no offense, but 1/5 isn't very good odds for me.

In order for your arguments to hold any water, I'm still waiting for an explanation.  If society and rearing has nothing to due with choice of sexual orientation,

1.  Statistically, why do children raised in homosexual household turn out gay more often?

2.  Why are there many more homosexuals today then there was 10, 20, 50, or 100 years ago?  It can't be due to natural selection!

Columbo, perhaps there are not more people who are gay. Perhaps the question should be, what has changed to allow these people to be openly gay? After all, do you know for sure that there were not just as many gay people before? Or is your assumption based on some evidence besides the numbers you keep quoting? From the people in the gay community that I know, numbers haven't risen much. Only those who have chsen to stop hiding it, to stop trying to be what they are not. And to very much stop letting religion dictate what they do in thier lives. After all, whom truly knows the heart of another? Only the one you love can even begin to understand, and even they might not know all of it.

But here's a grand question, are there in fact MORE homosexuals or less people who think it's a sin to ADMIT they're homosexuals. For years people were pushed to hide any homosexuality or homosexual tendicies, thoughts, desires, from the world because it was "wrong". Is it possible now that less people support this idea that more people feel open about coming to terms with these feelings... as opposed to a gay man marrying some poor woman only (much to his own self hatred for doing so) cheat on her with the men he's really attracted too. And because his unavoidable attraction to women has been turned into a 'dirty' thing, he acts in a "dirty" and irresponsible matter thereby damaging not only this woman's life, but children's lives in the long run. Was that a better world? The "dirty little secret" world? I think what has changed is not the NUMBER of gays in the world but the percentage of people who think it's okay to come out now.

I've known kids raised in gay homes and shockingly enough, they seem no better or worse off than the kids raised in the straight homes. And forget what there sexuality is (oddly enough, of the gay families I know, I have yet to see any of the kids who are old enough for you to judge show any gay tendecies at all, in fact most the gay families I know have STRAIGHT children). As far as a child's most important HEALTH and WELL-BEING, (beyong stupid sexual preferances) I have yet to see any important differences (positive or negative) between a same-sex parent home and a Hetero home

I never get it, you people keep on pulling the 'Chrisitians are suppose to be Christ like' Bull crap.

Nope, sorry, were not all Christ like, oh.. damn.. sin check for me, well that sucks, doesn't stop me from saying that I don't think Gays are normal.

Nope, because Its not Biologically correct, and to tack on to the Fact that it isn't compatible with my religion.

.. wait... is that me being un-christ like again? oh... well that sucks.

and if by some wierd way, the 'GAY GENE' actually existed, wouldn't have been.. uhh.. breeded out of the species by now? After a Million years of copulation in which only a Man + Women can have kids, they shouldn't exist right, cause they can't have kids.. Why? Because they are 'Gay' meaning, no Man+Women, which = no kids.

Unless of course they are Mutants of course, but thats another Discussion, not this one, actually this doesn't really have anything to do with the actual topic.

oh well.

 I sincerely cannot wrap my head around the fact that those of you who want to "protect" your children from homosexuality don't see the harm you are doing to those children by instilling in them hatred, bigotry and fear.

My husband and I fear judgmental bigots above all and are doing our best to protect our three kids against hateful ignorance. And man, do we have our work cut out for us!

Sean, you bring up another good point.  Either evolution and our understanding of genetics is a complete farse, or there is no gene that defines one as gay.  The two cannot co-exist.

Actually, they can, Columbo. There is a thing called a "recessive gene" that only manifests under certain circumstances. Sickle-cell anemia is just one product of a recessive gene. Green eyes and left-handedness are two more. When you consider how many variables are in the human genome, the fact that we don't have that great an understanding of it makes a lot more sense.

The assertion that sexual orientation is a choice infers that you, during your formative years, looked at all the possible options for your own sexuality and "chose" to be straight. Did that happen? Do you recall making an informed decision as to who or what you would be attracted to? I don't, oddly enough.

Honestly, the whole "Choice" argument is entirely irrelevant as there are a LOT of life choices that people make that are protected by the constitution.  Voting Republican, practicing Christianity, or accepting blood transfusions are just a couple of those things.  

good grief... do think these people fell from other planets?  these people are OUR children!!!

want something our children should be protected from?  try their music and the television... that's the real threat..... I find it hard to believe that gays are abnormal, seeing as how they have existed since the dawn of time and there's been more than a couple of them. If only 1 or 2 were in existance, then yeah... I could agree with the abnormality..... Stop being brainwashed by your pastor.... stop and think for yourself. If God is fair and just, what are the odds he created people who are solely just to suffer in shame?  Then brings up the better question.... what about hormorphodites?  since they have both parts, are they only supposed to marry themselves?  any other type of relationship would be considered somewhere btwn gay and bi sexual... and dont worry.... your children will not feel the need to "choose" their sexuality when they grow up. They were born knowing it.

I dont belive the argument is whether they are our children or not. Accept your children for who they are. Dont force your decesions on others and make it seem normal because its not normal to be gay.. but i think you just want to sleep better at night going the easy route..

The vast majortiy of our children are NOT gay, and have a lot to deal with, without having to decide if they are attracted to Tom and freinds with Mary or attracted to Mary and friends with Tom... Or attracted to both...

That is why we have societal norms.  That way we don't have to worry about Mary having a sleep over with girlfriends and Tom showering and changing in public bathrooms after gym class.

Columbo, what the hell are you on?  When exactly did you struggle to decide whether Tom or Mary was more attractive?  Are you saying you made a concious decision to be straight?  I am straight and was never once the slightest bit attracted to a guy, I didn't choose, I just liked women from the start.

Oh, and one thing to ask Didi, how exactly does preventing gay marriage protect YOUR kids?  If you hate gay people, why would they be hanging out with a gay married couple?  Do you have any say over who your children hang out with?  Would it be different if they were simply life partners?  Married or not, if you hate gay people, why would your kids be hanging around with them?  You make no sense.

You people act like people being gay is a new thing, it's kind of been around as long as people have been alive.  And if it's a concious choice, are penguins (or numerous other species) way smarter than we think?

Your probably right about many people being straight from the start, and some being gay from the start.  Evidence and logic suggests however that some people are "on the fence", meaning, they could go either way, depending on which way they were swayed.

A lot of people I know started out with feelings of heterosexual attraction, and then changed to develop attraction for the same sex or both sexes.  At that point it was an issue that they had to work out.  The simplistic view that all are hard wired one way or the other is just not true.

Didi - Abnormal social conduct would be demonizing others and preventing them from having equal rights just because they're different than you. I'm a happily partnered gay man who has never engaged in 'abnormal' social conduct... But I do pay taxes, take care of my kids, and everything else you do (except perhaps hate others).

A. Columbo--

Alternatively, you could teach your children what your morals dictate to you and leave the rest of us the f**k out of it.  It isn't my job to teach your kids what is right, it's yours.  So do a better job with that, and you won't have to worry so much about what your neighbors are up to.

Besides, think about it, is morality untested really of any value?  Do you really want to remove all challenges or difficult decisions from your children's lives?  How can they possibly be worthy of heaven if they've never turned away from temptation?  There is no morality in a world without moral ambiguity.  Get real, and stay out of other people's private lives.

Ben, this is one of the most sound and refreshing comments I've read yet.  Third generation minister's daughter here...  It's nice to know there are others out there who actually think for themselves.

You can't be serious.  Do you think that children are a blank slate, whose decisions are not influenced by the society that they live in?  Right now in Mass., the only state that has legalized gay marriage for any substantial period of time is teaching their public school kids about homosexual marriage just the same as heterosexual marriage.  They are teaching it as a viable option.  One that the kids will have to think about and decide - whether they will be straight or gay.

I don't think they should have to decide that.  What has our society come to?  At least the default, or the norm should be a heterosexual relationship.  The people that do choose homosexuality should not push their veiws on the rest.

 And those of us who support our gay friends and family should wonder why you wish to push your view of normality on us. What is it about christians that makes them forget their own teachings? That Christ himself taught "judge not lest ye be judged" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? What happened to "love thy neighbor"?

 Amazing how all these things fall away when they feel that only their way is right. Having read and studied the bible, and other religious works, I can only say one thing. Get off your high horse before you fall on your heads. Christians aren't the only religion. And before anyone cares to point it out, most other religions have as many things that set off christians anyway. Muslims, the Jewish, pick any of them. Every religion has faults, that why we have SECULAR laws. To keep religion from preventing society from evolving.

Of course I'm serious. Are you serious in thinking that teaching evolution in public schools causes children to throw away their religous beliefs? Of course not. Children are not blank slates. Only people like you who are so afraid of something different want them to be. My children were raised to have open minds. To study and learn, to make up their own minds about issues. Not to follow the pack in some form of mindless sheephood. They grew up in a household with one parent...me. This after my wife was killed by a drunk driver who just happened to be a highly respected member of the local church. They learned to think. Too bad you weren't raised the same way.

*sigh*  It's not about deciding!  IT'S NOT A CHOICE!  It's about teaching them equality, tolerance, and acceptance of people who are different than them!  Trust me, they already are who they are...  but maybe... just MAYBE these kids will have a chance to not feel abnormal or outcasted once they come into their own and realize it, because we're teaching them tolerance and acceptance now.

so our children know who they are.. Thats a great philosphy. Last time I checked your brian doesnt even fully muture for a male till mid 20s. i may be wrong.  they are teaching 6 year olds about this stuff. can you honestly say they know who they are i dont think so. i think preacher girl has A HOT  after life coming/ or maybe im wrong and i have a hot after life comingeither way its my choice to not support gay marriage

so columbo, there is now a "gay marriage" subject taught in schools in Mass?  Right alongside math and reading?  Actually I live in Mass and I have nieces and nephews in school in Mass.  I actually went to school in Mass and marriage is not a subject that has ever been "taught" in school let alone gay marriage.  And believe me they haven't added it to any curriculum since gay marriage has passed in Mass.

I would send you the link, but I can't copy a link here.  The book, being read to elementary school kids in Mass. is about a prince falling in love with another prince and getting married.  The book also shows the couple embracing and kissing.  I'm glad that your kids haven't been subjected to that... yet.  I would suggest keeping a tight watch on their ciriculum.  This case was highly publicized in California, so it should be pretty easy to find on the internet.

Send your kids to private school if you want to control the content of their classes.  Here in America our public schools give information freely.  Sorry if you don't like it, but that's why private schools were created.  I shouldn't have to suppress my beliefs to make you feel comfortable.

"I don't want my kids to have to decide what their sexual orientation is. They have enough to worry about." - and - "...teaching their public school kids about homosexual marriage just the same as heterosexual marriage.  They are teaching it as a viable option.  One that the kids will have to think about and decide - whether they will be straight or gay."

I'm with Rob here.  Kids don't have to decide if they are going to be straight or gay, they are born straight or gay.  They get to decide if they are comfortable being themselves, if their friends and family will accept them as they are.

And marriage is all the same, straight or gay.  The joining of two people who love one another.  Nothing more, nothing less.