Should gays be allowed to serve openly in the military?

I think that argument doesn't work. 

There are openly gay civilians that would like to join the military. 

Every American should be concerned about unfairness taking place in the US military.

If we are going to entertain that idea.. then I would like to be able to use the same bathroom and showers as the women.. I mean after all that would be the same thing as a gay guy gazing at me in the shower wouldnt it...... I might as well be able to look as some women shower then... not a damn bit of difference...!!! All the straight guys and girls can shower together, and the gays can have their normal bathroom..lol. Go watch Starship Troopers!

That is such a typical male response give me a break! Just because they are gay doesn't mean they will be checking everyone out.  I work with lesbains and we share the same female bathroom..its ingnorant to assume that everyone is a sexual deviant..grow up.

twobear

I am finishing up a 20 year stint in the Army, due to retire in a few months. In the time that I have served I have met numerous female soldiers that I have admired, respected and had absolutely no sexual desires towards.

Just because I may not have been sexually attracted to them, does that justifiy making them shower with me? How about forcing them to have to change clothes, conduct personal hygiene, and share a room with me?

If you were to understand the elements required to form a cohesive unit, you would understand why  gays openly serving are a detrement to good order and discipline, health and welfare of our nations Armed Forces!

I think don't ask, don't tell is an ideal way to keep my sons out of war. If they are EVER drafted, they will just proclaim their homosexuality. Lord knows I would have if Bush tried to get me into Iraq.

If we are being made to be less sensitive to gays then women need to be less sensitive to men!! Thats all I am saying..I could say the same thing about showering with women... How do you know I would be checking out the women in the shower?? That tells me that you are stereo typing men... which brings us back to our original point then, and yes the gay 'Men' would be looking at me in the shower because you just decided that we straight men would look at women...lol Hypocracy..!!

g2g:

Your last paragraph is EXACTLY the argument used against integration of black and white units decades ago.

I think we are talking apples and oranges when talking race and sex....at least in this case..Regardless of race...you are either a male or female... you are attracted to the opposite sex and we segregate men and women to prevent one from 'offending' the other sexually or taking advantage of the other. Sorry but the same principle applies when the same sex is attracted to the same sex...Do you really think gays will not look at other same sex people in showers or possible force themselves on others? I dont believe that for a min. Attraction is a constant thing, go to any military unit and listen to the talk that goes on...My point is that if I am subjected to showering with someone who is possible attracted to me then there is no difference than me showering with a female I am attracted to and subjecting her to that... No difference at all!! Believe me If we are going to completely desegregate then fine let the gays in.. But It would have to be an all or nothing desegregation!

Gays are already in the military, Robert. They are just not allowed to let anyone know about their sexuality. All the Admerals and Generals are saying in this piece is that they should be allowed to be open about it. That doesn't mean they are forced to be open about it. In the culture you describe I don't think anyone with half a brain would want to be open about it, but they should not be kicked out because they are. That's all the policy change would mean.

As an aside, I think Obama would be a fool to waste his first few months, or even few months of his first year, on this issue. There are more pressing issues to deal with. This is not 1993 and he is not Bill Clinton. I don't see why so many are insisting Obama will repeat that presidency.

I have also pondered this situation though particularly from a logistics perspective.   It is almost impossible to imagine a proper rooming situation that adheres to the current same sex restricted military environment.  Specifically in a barracks situation, where an all male barracks is seperated from an all female barracks, where would the openly gay soldier be situated?  Certainly not in the male barracks because they might as well put a women in there.  And of course not in the female barracks because of the same reason.  Would there be a Gay Barracks?  No, because this would also be against the sexually segregated military environment.  Now moving out of a barracks situation into a dorming situation the same would apply.  Of course most openly gay individuals would respect the straight nature of a roommate but rooming them together is potentially an infringement on straight person's rights to room with someone of the same sex.  The situation gets no better when soldiers are in the field.   What a logistical nightmare.  Can someone explain to me how rooming would be handled if DADT was repealed?

Well I would agree with that about Obama we do have ALOT bigger issues to deal with in the country... That would be a big waste of his time at this point...

I have SEEN actual pic's of gay men having sex in the shower in the military.  EWE!!!

That's soooooooo nasty.  If  i walked in on that act, I'd throw them off the ship.  Or, I'd make sure they went out on patrol FIRST. 

Any commander would KNOW that would undermine his troops. 

this is the BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! answer I have seen on this thing..thank you for some sense..your right..I'm military and were the ones that will have to deal with this..civilians will have no contact with this whole issue ever...unless they enlist, but then we wouldnt be here talking about this issue because we wouldnt have to let openly gays in the military!

I think what you seem to be forgetting is that civillians are soldiers who make up the military. You aren't born with a camoflauge uniform and a purple heart on straight out of the womb you are made into a soldier. The military still has plenty of issues with race and religion and sexuality- if it were up to some of them I'm sure women would be barred from the military (which I as a woman would have no problem with because I'd never have to worry about the draft). Everyone would have to pray breakfast lunch and dinner, and be white as the snow from Alaska. After all, I'm sure I can think back to a while ago when troops were saying 'Who wants to shower and sleep near a black person?'

The fact of the matter is homophobe need to get over themselves. Just because someone is gay doesn't mean they're automatically attracted to every single guy they meet. I'm sure the straight men in the military don't run up to the women and start humping their legs, the gay men won't do the same. Its really not don't ask don't tell so much as don't ask, don't tell, don't get caught, don't ever talk about, just don't period. Get over it. You shouldn't be fighting for 'freedom' if your going to turn around and deny it to someone who's supposed to be your brother in country and fellow american.

Like you said we just need to get over.. then women need to get over being looked in the shower by guys!! Just get over it...And you would be surprised at how much humping goes on! And you do have a good point.. But then so do I....Totally de-segregate then....Gays guys get to look when they want..I can take showers with the chics, everyones happy... right?

Boy,  is a big 'o mess!  Let's hope she doesn't or already hasn't procreated!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robert, you are in the AF how many showers are you required to take with other guys? Honestly?

Wow Robert...you flatter yourself to think that the guys will all be gazing at you like you have something they have never seen. Have you noticed the common denominator here...men. The women don't have a problem with it just the men. I think the reason is because the str8 men know that they are really the problem. They know they are the horndogs and they are afraid that they gay men will be too! If you are comfortable with you sexuality then why should you care about anyone else's? Women have been dealing with this for a very long time, and still they manage to work right alongside all these horny men. How do they ever manage? Well..here is a tip for you, you can write it down just in case a "gay" approaches you. You say...."Thanks or sorry, I am not interested" and that's it...pretty easy.

Interesting conversation. A few thoughts for introspection:

1. The vast majority of gay people are undetectable. They look just like everyone else, hence, you don't always know who is gay and who is not. Think people.
2. People tend to confuse "Sex" with "Sexuality". They are generally exclusive of one another though they do interact under specific circumstances. Same gendered people can and do have sexual contact, but are not necessarily gay. Single gendered institutions create this senario--prisons, priesthood, etc.--think people.
3. When gay people are allowed to be "out" in the military I suspect that nothing will change from what it is now. Most gay people do not have a need to tell the world "hey! look at me! I'm gay!" Why do people feel the need to be superior to someone else? Think people.
4. Gay rights IS a civil rights issue whether you think gayness is a choice or not. WE are American citizens and as such are guaranteed equal rights and protections under the law and Constitution of the United States. Gay folk pay taxes too! Think people.

me personally...the more gays the better....I'm as straight as they come...and my response is purely selfish....more gays...means more women with less competition...

And to the AF guy....you're a piece of work....first of all...showers are not a matter of sexuality...they're a matter of gender.....boys with boys...girls with girls....what an idiot of an answer from you...

John1203, people said the same thing before Truman integrated the military in '48. I've known many who have served, all the time worried about the witch hunts and blackmail from other soldiers. It's time we honor ALL those who wish to serve our great nation.  

Why would service men and women need to go to sensitivity training?  Is there that much hate in people these days? 

 If they want to be openly gay in the military then they better have there own barracks or forbidden to enter the showers sorry but unless you let woman frolic in the showers with the men then gays shouldn't be allowed to either period.  There needs to be serious strict rules. Including sexual harassment done to strait men and woman by homosexuals. They should be treated the same way they treat men and woman interaction.

Megin, that's an ignorant argument.  GUESS WHAT????  GAYS ARE ALREADY SERVING AND THEY ARE ALREADY TAKING SHOWERS WITH THEM AND SHARING BARRACKS!!!!!  This is about treating honorable soldiers equally and with honor.  And as far as the argument that gays would be beat up so this is for their protection....UGH!  How about prosecuting ANYONE who viloates UCMJ!!  I, for one, can take care of myself!

Just because a person is homosexual doesn't make them deviants with loose morals and no sense of pride and propriety. They are just as professional and honorable as a straight man or woman. They are just as HUMAN as the next person and should be treated with dignity and respect as all people should be, not singled out and vilified for their choice in which they wish to offer their hearts to.

In your logic then we should also separate the married men and women from others so they are not tempted to sully their vows with the unattached. Also, the woman shouldn't be allowed to parade around in those tight undershirts on warm days because surely their breasts and ample hips will make the men covet their bodies and by doing so they will bring dishonor to not only the military but their countries! No, no, no. We can't have that! Best cover them head to toe!

Should we go a step further and just start separating men and women of different faiths so as not to tarnish the good Christian faiths with those 'lesser' faiths such as Judaism, Buddhism, and other denominations that the Church doesn't recognize because they believe they are the one true faith of God? Oh, and we must surely bar the Atheists because such Godless heathens can't defend their country with the same integrity and honor as those men and women who praise Jesus.

What about separating the blacks, browns, and whites from each other?! We must keep our Military clean and pure after all, right Megin?

So, please Megin, tell me where it would end?

You can not single out human beings based on their skin color or faith and by the powers that be you can not single them out because of whom they love.

Hate has no place in my Military in any form.

Severence, your military is built on standards.  It not bolster and advertise deviant behavior and immorality when it sells being the best that you can be.  If you fail the simple normal human sexual relation test, you are not the best. 

 There a deviate psychi somewhere- the mainframe has a glitz in it somewhere.  This(Openly Serving or Gay Service) is not good for the Armed Services in any form.  It just opens up the room for moral decay and more problems.  They say "Loose Lips sinks Ship", guess what Loose standards and Loose sexual orientations will do for the Armed Services.

Your military?  The military belongs to the people of the United States and is commanded by its Commander in Chief, the President of the United States.  In case you haven't noticed we are not all the same nor do we have the same abilities,  if you don't think that is true, try and watch a female use a urinal to urinate in, not the same.  I have been to a "worship service" that was set up not to offend or promote any certain religion, what a waste of time.  A religious service that will not offend any religion will also not impress any religion or seem real to any religion.   Segregation, no, making like we are all the same and can benefit from the same things, also no.

John, whats the matter??  Cant a big bad butch American Soldier learn how to say NO to a gays advance.   Weaker women can say no to pushy men, cant a masculine butch soldier just say no to gay person should he get a pass??

To "A JOE WHO KNOWS BETTER"  sounds like you got drunk and did the nasty with a fellow shipmate.  LOL  "guess what loose standards and loose sexual orientations will do for the Armed Forces"  Hey Joe, please tell us, what did it do to you?? ROTFLMAO

Since when is our military a bastion of morality?  They didn't hand out condoms and show films about the dangers of syphilis way back in WWII for nothing.  And many women in  service have reported being the objects of sexual harassment and even rape.  How many soldiers have used drugs?  Murdered a civilian?  Stolen?  Gotten wasted and busted up a bar?  If any one thinks that having gays in the military will somehow lower the moral standards of the military must be seriously naive.

A JOE WHO KNOWS BETTER, what makes you think that gays are sexually attracted to  you any way?

Someone probably accidently bumped Joe in the showers and he almost had a heart attack....  

It doesnt work. We are weeding out bright, talented, and patriotic Americans through a discriminatory process that does not contribute to the overall well-being of the military and certainly does not follow the American idea of the progression of individual freedom. 

At a time when we are fighting two complicated and nuanced wars in two separate foreign regions we are kicking people out of the military who speak critical languages based on sexual preference.  Homosexuals are already serving in the military why not just make it official so we can plus up our ranks so I dont have to do a 3rd 15 month tour in Iraq.

My God - women are at a far greater risk of being raped by a heterosexual man than a heterosexual man is at risk of being raped by a homosexual man!

Grow up!

By "far greater" I assume you mean WAY, WAY, WAY FAR GREATER because "WAY, WAY, WAY FAR GREATER" is more accurate.

In fact, I bet there are hundreds of people reading this board today who can name a woman who was, at one time or another, forced to have sex with a man. The same could not be said about hetero men being forced to have sex with men. I guarantee it!

Megin, that's an ignorant argument.  GUESS WHAT????  GAYS ARE ALREADY SERVING AND THEY ARE ALREADY TAKING SHOWERS WITH THEM AND SHARING BARRACKS!!!!!  This is about treating honorable soldiers equally and with honor.  And as far as the argument that gays would be beat up so this is for their protection....UGH!  How about prosecuting ANYONE who viloates UCMJ!!  I, for one, can take care of myself!

Exactly, let them serve openly and get them out of the BARRACKS!! or keep them out of the military.  Why don't you try attending the  Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco sometime and that will show you the kind of people you will be showering with.

Hey, if gay people want respect then maybe they should treat themselves with a little respect first! Stop prancing around in the streets.  I have a right not to be looked in a sexual way by a woman.

Right on...that's EXACTLEY correct

Megin, do you think that every man you come in contact with is interested in you sexually? Probably not, gays aren't sexually interested in every member of the same sex they come in contact with. So get over your huge ego because not everyone is sexually interested in you male or female.

Also do you get on the case of all every men that propositions a woman inappropriately? Or women who proposition men inappropriately?  I'm have a right not be looked at sexually by a man when I don't want to (I'm heterosexual) but I don't here you protesting about those rights. Heterosexuals can act just as unacceptably as you are portraying homosexuals to act.

Based on the way the gay community has been behaving lately, this issue should not be discussed at this time. 

There are SO many more important issues right now and forcing this issue to ruin another Democratic administration will only hurt ALL of us. 

The gay issue is not like the race issue.  Gays live rather well compared to a person of color.  It is an insult to all people of any race or preference to use that tactic.

That said, the military does not condone 'fraternizing'.  They want to change that, too?  Most of them are so egotistical they wouldn't make it past the basic training. 

If you think sexual prefrence is a choice, maybe you have made the wrong one. Why so worried about someone else's sex life?  Why can't we all just mind our own business! 

Doesn't the military take great store in history? This country would not exist if the founding fathers had to pass some kind of sex test!  The world would not be the one we live in if Alexander The Great,  Patton's spirit guide had to pass a sex test.

The toughest guy I ever new was a transsexual who saved my 'little old lady butt' from getting a beating!   Thanks Chris!

Megin....here's a little secret...I'M gay and proudly serving (for 15 years so far!!)  The people in the parades are about as likely to join as my dead grandmother.  Again, imaginations run WILD with some people!!

Megin, do you think that every man you come in contact with is interested in you sexually? Probably not, gays aren't sexually interested in every member of the same sex they come in contact with. So get over your huge ego because not everyone is sexually interested in you male or female.

Also do you get on the case of all every men that propositions a woman inappropriately? Or women who proposition men inappropriately?  I'm have a right not be looked at sexually by a man when I don't want to (I'm heterosexual) but I don't here you protesting about those rights. Heterosexuals can act just as unacceptably as you are portraying homosexuals to act.

You people have no standards, morals or principles do you? Obviously not or you would get my point.

Severance...you forgot one...perhaps we should start separating the men from sheep too?....lol

The argument that gays undermine moral is bullsh*t....I'm straight...and as long as a gay doesn't try to tell me who I can screw...I won't try to tell them who they can screw....period end of discussion....

and Megin...perhaps you should remove the tin foil from around your head....right winger "different" bashers are so not in style....

Megan,

If having "no standards, morals, or principles" means not hating a group of people for choices that they make, choices that do not harm other beings, then I will proudly admit to not having your standards, morals or principles.

Well put at the top of this long column Megin.. I completely agree with you! I dont believe for one minute that the gays dont look at other men or women in the shower or otherwise, I have been checked out by gays and they turn their heads with the best of us walking through the mall or anywhere else, sorry to say.. whoever said that way up above is full of crap!!....When in deployed locations we werent allowed to have sex with the opposite sex even, and if we had same sex relations going on out there that would be even easier because we would all be in the same barracks... Wouldnt work, would be a distraction.. Men and Women together are a distraction..That is why the Marines have seperate training environments for the men and women in Boot and MCT/SOI trng. And if you are serving quietly, that is why you are still serving so it is probably best to stay quiet, if you dont like it get out of the military and go into something else.

Robert, someone could be "serving quietly" but then get discharged if someone somehow finds out that they have a same-sex partner back home (maybe that partner sent them a letter or called them, or maybe word just got around about it).

This isn't right.

Good point... unfortunately we cant control what other people are going to do or how they view things... I have someone in my unit that lives with another woman, I am pretty good friends with her and even been over at her house a couple times to watch the fights, there is no doubt in my mind that her and her 'roommate' are life partner..whatever the phrase may be, they have a 2 bedroom place, the girls bro lives there too..anyone can do the math...neither girl has dated since I have known them for the last 4 years. But you dont see me pushing issues on that. I am going to be a little hypocritical here and say I dont really care too much because they are quiet, friendly, and attract no attention to themselves...But I still thing the best thing that gays have going for them right now in the military is the ability for them to be descrete and utilize the dont ask dont tell policy.....

For Renata Nicole:

Little lady, I'm not worry any gay men being attracted to men in the civilian world or anywhere else.  Any unwanted, slighted, or pretense passes is sure to get them an embrassed moment that will make sure they stay away from making passes at straight men- if not a beat down; But I try not to hit women anymore or men who perfer to sucks the rocks of men and get packed from the back and ride the pole.

For Devil Advocate:

I guess I should have expected that from you and someone supporting an immoral behavior and sexual choice like homosexuality to attack me or another person  who stands against it.  To answer your question, I simply find it appalling that any man would desire another man for sex when there are plenty women in the world- pretty ones and average ones- if ugly women is not your cup of tea.  I perfer trophy women because every woman has a kutter-cat; I need more than that to justify spending my hard earned money on them.

So, mule-wipe didn't it ever occur to you that I find that type of sexual lifestyle and sexual behavior offensive and not all the B.S. you talked about in your posts?  

You typical showed that you have no ego or intelligence unless you are being cynical about someone.  Grow-up dude and stop being a evious and pious horse-part if someone takes a moral stand on a matter or if it's not the same stance that you are supporting.  I shared my opinion on the subject matter and if you didn't like it tuff- live with it; not everyone want homosexuality in their society when heterosexuality takes care all needs. 

If a person can't have the normal traditional sexual relationships with the opposite sex, then something is wrong with them mentally and emotionally.  And, to want to flaunt their gay sexual behavior out in the open and force this deviant sexual choice or behavior on others proves their mental dysfunction.  The Army pyschs are giving this MoRo's a pass.  They should be happy with serving period and not having all the bells and whistles being displayed over their sexual orientation anyway. 

Nobody want to see it or know about it.  End of Story.

What!!!!!  Are you crazy? 

It is an entrance requirement that you are not to be gay when signing you contract for duty?

That the wrong kind of distraction for the military in any environment- Wartime or Peace.

After the Don't Ask Don't Tell Act the military is no longer allowed to ask you if you are gay or not when you join the military.

There are a lot of gay people in the military already and Americans need to get over it.

To "A JOE THAT KNOWS BETTER" - Pray tell us - what kind of distractions did the gays do to you in the military... ROTFLMAO... man you have some real skeletons in your closet that are buggin you.  Are you afraid the fellow soldier shooting his gun next to you is blowing kisses at the same time.  Are you afraid your butt is being cruised in the shower?  OR ARE YOU AFRAID of being "sized up?"  you seem to have some real *small* issues here  heh heh heh....

joe whats wrong with you why cant you just accept what someone is, and if someone is "crazy" enough to die for this country we sholud let them no matter who they are(unless they are going to kill every living person they see)

Hey Joe,

I'm a gay man, just for the record.  In your post up there you say "Because my posting comes from my intelligence..."  Well, I've got to call out the truth squad on you.

Here is your first boo boo.

"You been doggin my commentary pretty stupidly and naively."
-the problems here are many.  Spelling, grammar, sentence structure, they all seem to take a
  back seat to your "intelligence".  Let me see if I can figure out what you were really trying to
  say.  Maybe something like...'You've been dogging(notice the spelling) my commentary in a
  naive manner'.  Notice the proper spelling and structure.

Number Two...

"Also, my post comes from my ability to have envision, visualize, and think beyond about how a radical different sexual social agenda among soldier who don't share the practice and soldiers who do."

-Wow!  Your first mistake here is that you are being redundant.  To envision and to visualize are synonyms.  Synonym is a big fancy gay word used to describe different words that mean the same thing.  Next you have a weird middle to your run on sentence. "...and think beyond about how..."  Think beyond what?  Oh, right, I always think beyond about how.  This is just a poor sentence start to finish.  Let me help you out here.  I think that the following sentence is what you were really trying to communicate.  'My post is influenced by my ability to see beyond a radical social, and or, sexual agenda, that differentiates between gay and straight soldiers.

Honey, there are gay men and women in the military with you already.  They've already seen all there is to see.  Maybe they haven't taken a pass at you because you are just not very attractive.  But I doubt a man of your words would let his ego get bruised by such thoughts.  So lets just say that the reason gay men you serve with haven't made a pass, or tried to rape, or harass you, is because they are trying to do the same thing you are... Serve their country.

Peace, and Love,

CH

Stupid and/or fat people can be wonderfully patriotic as well, but that does not mean that they are qualified to enter the armed service.

The best logic for allowing open service is the fact that more and more military operations are conducted on a joint level (i.e. with the Brits, Canucks, et al.) and they allow for open service.

That said, if there is a collective right to serve in the military then there must too be a collective responsibility.  I do not think that myself nor my brethren would be too bothered by a repeal of "Don't ask..." if it included a compulsory service clause.

Of course, I do not imagine that the same people that think nothing of making drastic changes to military standards would be for serving under those same regulations.

The beauty of the irony is diminished only be the breadth of the hypocrisy.

Mr. Creston,

If you gonna try to psycho analyze me, you gotta gat dit wright.  It's internet lingo and writing Mr. Creston.  Geez, you would think a psycho analyst would know that after proper observation.

A synonym is a english language term unsed to denote a similar meaning- it's not a gay word.  Now, you gay want dibs on certain words too.

"Honey" ??   I am not your honey but that a truly gay word coming from a man.  So, Yep, you are a gay man.

Don't get this wrong Sir or Mister gay man, this is not to sound mean and cynical but don't try to tell me what I meant to say when I said what I meant.  It's my post, I construct it and explain my thoughts any way I want.  I can keep it simple to appeal to the masses or bore everyone to death by using perfect prose or scientific professor like words. 

But don't tell me again in any post what I meant to say.  who know better what I thinking and meaning to write at the time I am writing but me.  That just plain dumb to say that you can tell me what I meant to say thru reading my print and writing.  It just not to do on anyone post.

Hey Joe: Who was your english teacher, Sarah Palin? She doesn't even have a FIRST language yet!! LMAO Please don't hang your ill use of the language on the fact that you think it's internet lingo. Get a clue. You are as misinformed about our language as you are about gay people. Get a life!!

Amen, MO/Creston! 

As a true curmudgeon of English grammar, I can assure you butchering sentence structure and spelling and classifying it as “creative license” might allow you to speed up your rate of data entry, but you are conveying to us as readers a level of intellect most likely in the single-digit IQ range.  Simply reiterated, if you choose to come across as uneducated, your method of communication purveyed it beautifully.

I *still* think someone bumped Joe in the shower and he almost had a heart attack....

HEY JOE - there *is* a policy to help protect little ole you... JUST SAY NO policy..

Nice quote...from Barry Goldwater of all people.

Jeff it is not the gays you need to worry about your children around, it is the Priests.

What is the difference between a gay and a priest?

I'll answer that - a gay likes another MAN, a priest likes to exploit an underaged BOY...

lol not all priests are child molesters

The difference between a gay and a priest is -- a gay was born homosexual and a priest is a pedophile. BIG DIFFERENCE!!

Actually, havetyouropinion, the vast majority of pedophiles child molestors are heterosexual men.  Most consider themselves to be devoutly religious as well.

Erica is correct.  Many homosexual men, were turned as children.  The ACLU sued in court, for Adult men, should to be able to have sex with 8 year old children.  The facts:  Man kidnapped a 8 year old boy.  He was a member of the MEN'S BOYLOVE CLUB.  There motto is "8 is to late."  The ACLU did not prevail, because there was a kidnapping involved. 

Once we open ANY doors to these UN-NATURAL ACTS, we then would have to continually have to argue against all these other abominations.    

Wow do you lie. Can you give me a link to that ACLU story. I never saw that in the news letters mail to my house. BTW if you are not a man you should probably not speak for them.

Did they try to put you down at the vet? Is that why you are mad?

Not Santa, That story is probably at least 10 years old.  Haven't you ever heard of the Men's Boy Love Club"  They've been investigated by the FBI for 30 years now.  They just didn't have operatives that wanted to go under cover.  They always suspected this club of all the child kidnappings.  They knew they were.  Just couldn't prove it.  They have quite the underground.  You sound like you receve news letters from them??? 

If Santa, is really, a part of the Mens Boy Love Club....I hope Big Brother is listening!!!

No they are not whack job. Thats what the ACLU does, protects us from big brother.

The best part of you dripped down your fathers leg.

You seem to be on this adult child kick. Do you molest children?

And I still can find no mention of your club.

Hey Daughter, I only go for 18 and older, with that said, do you have any brothers or sons over 18 years old? I'll give you my number to give them.

That's funny Santa....you sound like you belong to it.  The ACLU takes on the WORST of cases.  How could they sue to take the Bible out of the class room?  How could they sue to remove God from Gov't facilities?  How could they sue whole school districts for gay rights? 

All of these law suits are an abomination before the Lord.  Each and everyone of these people that have brought these law suits have DIED the most horrible deaths.

Keep it up & we will see what you get???   

Well Stupid. WTF is a bible doing in a class room, I'm Buddhist, put a book representing all religion and book for those who don't believe. 2nd WTF dose god need to be at the registry of deeds or the RMV? Buddha aint there, did someone say special rights for god?

How do you think you will died? Hopefully slow and painful from the many abortions you had.

Again, do you have any brothers or sons over 18 years old? I'll give you my number to give them.

hey daughter,  how did you get to the bible, this post is about gays in the military, I am 62 year old female, straight. Love my grandchildren, go to church, when I want to. Dont hate anyone and see a need for the ACLU. You and yours can pray anytime you want, just dont make mine do so.  Gay people have been with us from the begining of time and will allways be with us, you may be strung a little tight or maybe you just need to spend some time with people who arnt just like you. I have had it with you folks who think we all have to believe like you do, cause we dont and wont so give it a break.

ROTFLMAO.... that has *got* to be the best exchange of words I have ever read on the internet.... 

gotta print this one out!!!!....

Wrong, and wrong. It is not a choice and homosexuality exists in nature. Always has and always will. Why are the straight 'guys' so afraid of a gay man?? Shame on all of you.

Being homosexual is NOT a choice.  READ up on this.  Then form an opinion.  That's like saying "cancer" is a choice or diabetes is a choice.  CRAZY....

Being homosexual is not a choice. Believe it or not, it occurs in nature all the time. The only thing that is a choice is bigotry, racism and being homophobic. I feel sorry for all uneducated people. This is the 21st century and you haven't learned a thing. How sad.

MO's and HAMLET, you two folks should go back to class and read up more on the topic from a psychological viewpoint.

Over-Ruled Verdict and Conclusion in this Case- Homosexuality is indeed a CHOICE!!!!

There no way around it folks.  It is what it is !!!!   A deviated sexual preference and choice.

Hamlet,  so you are saying that homosexuality is a disease?  Maybe they can get an exemption under the "Americans with Disabilities Act"

A Joe the Knows Better: You're the one that needs to go back to school. You'll find that homosexuality is as normal as heterosexuality. You'll find it right after the study that says the world is round not flat.  You are the one that is Over-ruled by those of us that not only have a brain, but use it to stay up with the times. By any chance Joe that Knows Better, are you related to Joe the Plumber?? The only reason I ask is because you both have a two digit IQ.

Um, Joe... I'm in the field of psychology and nowhere in the DSM-IV is homosexuality considered an abnormality.  That was found in OUTDATED versions... outdated just like homophobic attitudes.  Please, a soldier is a soldier.  I would rather have a honorable homosexual soldier guarding my back than a bigoted heterosexual who was wasting his/her time and my tax dollars worrying about what other people do in their bedrooms.

Joe,

Give up you are arguing with people who were educated way above their intelligence. They have obviously never served in the military as you and I have. They have not a clue as to what they are talking about.

Why would anyone choose to be the object of name-calling, discrimination, and abuse? Being gay is NOT a choice. I knew I was gay from the time I was a child.

You're a VERY SICK INDIVIDUAL!!!!!!

Mo, then why are you only concerned about your constitutional rights and no others? 

I don't see gays supporting other agendas that may benefit them as well.  Pure ego. 

Spoken like a "true" Christian.  I think I'm gonna barf.  It's so obvious how "sheltered" you are.  There is nothing loving about you, based upon your comments.  There is nothing intelligent.  There is nothing I've read in your posts that would make me want to get to know you... except to TRY and open your mind and your heart and bit and give you a real hard kick in the ass or that vile mouth of yours.  My God and yours obviously are not the same.

BTW - Straight woman here with two wonderful gay brothers and lots of gay male and female friends.  Can't pick as well on the blacks now, huh, so you're going to attack someone else you feel superior to.  You should sign off and get back to your Bible and really read it for what it's saying.   I pray you don't have a son who is shaking in the closet right... How sad if so, to have a mother with such a cold, closed heart.  Oops... gotta go... thinking about all you've said is making me want to hurl again.

The same was said about integrating women and blacks into the military, and both now serve openly with honor.  Gays already serve in the military, why should they be forced to keep quiet about a simple fact about themselves that has no relevancy to military service?

Absolutely! Gays and lesbians should be able to serve openly just as they should be able to anywhere in the civilized world! Being a US civilian I say civilians should have ALL the say and the military should shut up and follow orders.  The military works for the people NOT the other way around.  If the military won't conform to civilian order, then it's time to change the military rules! Remember this country was formed of the people, by the people, and FOR the people!

Oh good GOD!  FLAUNTING???  What exactly is going through your mind when you imagine DADT being lifted?  You think we're all going to show up in pink boas and have pride parades on base/post?  NO DAMNIT!  People are going to show up for work and continue doing their jobs in a professional manner...jeezsh, some people just let their imaginations get the best of them!!

Why should they stay in the closet? They're as normal as you are. Then again, maybe I should rethink how normal you are. Fornicate openly?? Is this the same as being groped by any male who gets near you?? Out in the open?? In a bus?? Train?? Playground?? Your own home?? How exactly does this work? They're really not interested in you because your narrow mind would turn them off. They ABSOLUTELY should have the same rights as every other citizen. ALL OF THE RIGHTS NOT JUST SOME OF THEM!! You need to put your small, vicious, dirty mind to bed. It's leading you to think you are something you're not. HUMAN!!

A Joe that knows better....hmmm....ACTUALLY it should be A Joe WHO knows better....but I guess your ignorance isn't limited to social issues.  Anyway, heaven forbid people fight for equal rights and for the right to not get fired from a job just because they are gay!!  How come they can't stay in the closet???  BECAUSE NOBODY SHOULD BE FORCED TO STAY IN A DAMN CLOSET!!!  There simply is no logical argument for DADT!  and "the Armed Srvices don't need 'em!!!" ISN'T a logical argument!  As far as house cleaning...that would really make sense now wouldn't it.  Let's take competetant, professional soldiers, airmen, marines, and sailors and kick them out wasting millions in training (and retraining replacements) because frankly, they creep us out!!  HOW STUPID!  Just who's problem is it?  Sounds like you're just uncomfortable with the whole thing...well, get over yourself!  And just when was the last time you've seen ANYONE fornicate openly???  Just what kind of places do YOU frequent?

Oh crap!  It just occured to me...you are JOE THE PLUMBER aren't you????

I DID serve my country way back in 'Nam.  Even then we had homosexuals in the military, but I was never approached by a lesbian.  We now have convicted felons serving in the millitary and I would rather have a gay supporting me in combat than a convicted felon.

Why do you say it's not a choice? I personally have a friend who WAS an active homosexual w/a boy friend and all but got born again and kicked out the demon .Now he's married w/kids. Yes it's a fight but he is living proof that it IS most definetly a choice.

Just love your insane comment! Why don't you go through the same process to get rid of your righteous, depreciating, ideas! Maybe someone can do a special ceremony for you. So does that mean if someone WANTS to be gay they can also go through a process and have their "dreams come true"? And if your answer is going to be "Who would WANT to be gay?", then you've just proven the point! And no, I'm not gay but I love them as fellow humans!

I am a straight female and attended an all girls college.  It was my first real experience interacting with women of other sexual orientation, and I have to say that there was quite a few.  It was awkward at first until I realized that just because a woman was gay didn't mean that she was sexually interested in me, just like I am not sexually attracted to every male that I interact with.  I believe that homosexuals should be able to serve openly and I don't think that it would be a problem.  There are so many rules and regulation governing how the military must dress/act/think that a code of professionalism would be kept no matter if people were open or not about being gay/lesbian.  Military requires its member to act almost androgynous while in uniform, I know my fiance is an officer in the military and he won't even hold my hand while in uniform, therefore does it matter what sexual preference you have while in uniform because you shouldn't be flaunting any whether its homosexual or heterosexual. 

Also to anyone who is posting about their fears about tenting/showering with a homosexual, do you not realize that there are homosexuals in the military as it is and you are showering/tenting with them anyway?  So why does it matter if they are out in the open or not, especially since if you are that bigoted even if they could be open about it they probably wouldn't share that information with you, so you can continue to live in your own little world without worry.

This is insane you people are actually condoning gay men and woman in showers and same sleeping quarters. Then you might as well throw the men and woman together in the same living quarters too. If you allow gays in the military I would demand that they stay in there own barracks.

Megin-  These people aren't in the millitary for dating purposes or sexual reasons.  They are there being professionals.  Could it be argued that some are predatory?  Maybe there might be a few, but they would be court martialed and sent packing.  What you and many like you have is a psychological term.  Irrational fear.  Get over yourself, not everyone wants to have sex with you, male OR female.

MEGIN!! this is not about allowing gays in the military...educate yourself about the issue before posting!

airforcef16,

In what way should Megin educate herself? 

RossJ:  my deployed unit was about 150 soldiers, of which there were about 15 females, so about 10%.  We sent 5 females home pregnant during our 15 month deployment although birth control was available free and encouraged even for deployed personell that were married.  Probably about 30% of any unit is 17-24 age group, of which in this day and age, professional is not how I would describe them, sexual reasons are a big part of their life.  Lets get the female addition figured in before we add in the homosexual factor in the open.

This is killing me.  Gays are already in the military.  They are already taking showers with other human beings.  Get over it. 

Heterosexuals get to be openly straight.  Let gays be openly gay.

What the heck does what a person does in bed have to do with their job performance in the military?

I gotta say "Roger" on  that one Iraqvet-731729.  The Army shouldn't put the cart before the horse. 

I know some of the rock-suckers slipped in and served incognito, but I still say the Army can't speak about high standards if they recruit on a mantra of allowing openly gay service members.  I know some skills set differs, but what can remain constant when should keep it constant.  And that is every service member wanting to get lay by the opposite sex- after duty, after hours, after military balls and banquets.

I would not want to hear it from the Army; if they let the ball dropped on standards. How unique would the  institution be if we implement the same conditions from the civilian world? 

The adjustments and responses that will have to occur will just stifle the Army more than it is now with staff members and soldiers personal issues.

Rock suckers? Ok, done laughing.  The whole fear of the gay brigade bringing down the establishment is kinda funny, in a not so funny way.  Do you realize that when they went through a "cleanse and purge" of homosexuals from the millitary that they lost their top translators and no one to fill the void initially?  The whole concept of women in the armed forces or not is completely different.  Gay's don't get pregnant.  They are already in the armed forces and I don't hear alot of hullabaloo going on about men being violated in the showers or in their bunks.  Are there idiots out there that could cause that problem?  You bet.  But there are idiots of every race, nationality, orientation, and gender.  So, throw the baby out with the bath water?  Come on.  We have low enlistment numbers that would be bolstered and filled.  Soldiers that have completed their tours would be able to go home when promised.  I don't think there is going to be an influx of limp wristed nancy boys trying to decorate the barracks in taffada and silk like you imagine.  And once again, the notion that every gay man is going to be attracted to you because you are straight is ridiculous at best. 

After reading some of these  post I have come to the conclusion that since they let people who are openly bigoted in the military they might as well let people who are openly gay in the military.

ROSSJ,

Lost in a key skill identifier just means the recruiter need to put those scholarship dollars and bonuses to work and pay for those kinds of degrees- Recruit for skills where the Army is weak.  I know that is what Recruiting Commanders tell them to do each month on the clock.  Recruiters and the government can hire and find good non-gay people to serve.

The only time the Army should ever need a gay to pick up a service arm, coordinate supplies or do administrative work is when a Foreign Country has breach our shores and are storming through our city streets and front yards.  Until there are plenty straight people the Army can train and hire.  There is over 8 billion people in the World, surely the Army can find or send to school 5 million skilled soldiers to replace any gays in the Army.

For the Army to remain strong at the roots of strenght management and improvement, they need to stick to what have been working and not let some Oldies but Goodies over-rule what has work so well for so long.

A Joe that Knows Better: Your command of the english language is atrocious. You must have been studying bigotry when you were in school, instead of how to construct a proper sentence. You consider yourself well educated on the subject of gays; but, I have news for you. They have always been in the military. You have taken showers (if you bathe) with them and they have slept in the same quarters with you. I think you must come from south of the mason-dixon line or Appalachia to continue thinking as you do. My apologies to the southerners and Appalachian folks; but, you have to admit, you are still "bible delusional". Joe, you need to check out science. I hear it's the latest thing. Why not travel to Alaska? I hear Sarah will be teaching the very latest and you would fit right in. LMAO

You are one sick piece of work. From where though? Under a rock? A cave? As far as your remark referencing Sarah...she CERTAINLY is NOT a God fearing person! She doesn't fear anyone. She really does have her own agenda! Hmmmm, is that word in HER vocabulary?

Bellal - no it's not in her vocabulary. There are two words in her vocabulary, You betcha'.

LOL and DaughterRevWar - that's your God not mine. Mine doesn't preach hatred, bigotry etc. etc. As for punching my face in, you've got to be kidding me. I'm still laughing over that one. Thanks for the joke. Made my day!!!

Oh yeah DaughterRevWar - can I bring my whole family?? 6 kids, 10 grandkids, 15 great-grandkids?? Just wondering.

 MEGIN!! this is not about allowing gays in the military...educate yourself about the issue before posting!

Um. just as soon as you LEARN TO READ!!What part of my statement has anything to do with allowing gays in the military? NONE. SOO stop screaming at people. MY POSITION ON GAYS IN MILITARY IS THAT IT SHOULD OF BEEN OPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!! CAN YOU HEAR ME? GOOD!

I was questioning what to do after they are openly accepted in the military, I already know its a done deal that gays of coarse one day will be able to serve because the is just the way America is. I also believe one day they will marry too but as long as you go on defensive when people ask about thing that may be a real problem.

Are you a homo?  Sounds like it.  You just want your gay agenda.  Next you'll want to have sex with little boys.

Would you stop using the word HOMO???!!!Unless you're  using it as short for homogenous (meaning coming from the same origin).  Unless of course you're of a different species? What planet?

I'm with you Mike. I've been in 12 years. What consenting adults do in privacy is nobody else's business. I haven't had any gay people (and I suspect I've served with a few in my career) try to force me to be invovled in their private activities. Let them be out and stay in..

Daughter... I'm beginning to think that you are the last (hopefully) of a dying breed... Or you're just doing this for shock value.  You're almost humorous... and I can't help but think that your voice probably sounds a lot like your idol Sarah.

By the way... You need to educate yourself on the difference between a pedophile and a homosexual.  You seem to have the two one and the same. 

That is... If you're capable of being educated. 

DRW, What a Douche!

Are you referring to the book that is written about a man that lived with.....MEN his whole life and never knew a woman?? What a joke!! Doesn't fly bud!!

AF vet: The number of times Air Force personel have spent the nights in a foxhole is pretty small.  Your attitudes seem overly concerned with sex; the kind of fantasies  you indulge in seem pretty juvenile, do you have a Commie detector set on condition Red, I hate to think what your Liberal Detector does when a Gay person passes.

I am also curious how you recognise Gay people and are you sure you are catching them all maybe one of them has seen your pimply butt and has fallen madly in love. Or God Forbid they lust for your P P; Grow Up and use your mental powers for something more productive than hate, fear and false worries.

Army Vet

Never thought I see an Army vet wanting a queer in his foxhole- da%$@m, Now I know why most people like joining the Marines.

Most of the straight folks on this board wouldn't know a gay person if they fell over them. You're confusing a homosexual with a good ol' heterosexual that can't look at a woman without thinking of sex. Get over yourself. He's not gonna hit on you anymore than you're gonna hit on him -- or is that what you had in mind??

I are you freaking crazy.  Also, not worry about that because I am ratting out every soft rock-sucking one of them.

"Most straight on this board don't know a gay person if they fell over them", No, perhaps not but we question so many times straight people advocate for them.  Wow, let see, could they be interested in it themselves or are they trying to perserve the cause for their own gay moment.  I am just asking, straight non-service members- but do tell if you are a service member. 

Perhaps the straight people on this board are actually interested in equality - I'm an activist for separation of church & state and whenever I see the two intermixing I will speak out!  Lately it seems I'm spending an awful lot of my straight time as an advocate for the GBLT community.  Many of the current attacks against the GBLT community are also targeted at breaking down the wall between religion and government - which is clearly and blatently unconstitutional.  Now, I am not a service member, but I have many family members, close friends and co-workers who are/were.  A few of these people are gay, lesbian, or bisexual.  So I've heard plenty of stories... and, from what I can grasp, this "don't ask, don't tell" policy is basically outdated & only being clung to by the "hillbilly element" and fundamental members of the service.  Everyone else is relatively comfortable with the person serving beside them, regardless of gender, religion, and sexual orientation.

Mr. Newbie, I would say you are doing a great thing but I can't and won't.  I will say that if you were fighting for an equality that was not immoral; I would say that you are doing an honorable thing.

But here you need to recheck your agenda and what you are fighting for.  Now, these people had a choice of staying straight but didn't.  This gay conduct and behavior is not good for America; so why do you go out and advocate the destruction and reduction of our species and tradition male and female relationship. 

No Siree, you are not doing a noble or honorable thing.  What you are doing is a dis-service to human race by propagating immoral acts of sex in terms of equality.

What you Should be spreading is morality and good traditional practices that when not exceeded with immoral behavior and practices flourishes and thrive.  What you are doing sir is giving societal chaos and disorder a helping hand down the spiraling black hole to abyss.

I would say pick a new calling card for more morality not a dysfunctional and deviated society proclaiming discrimination because America choose to be a moral nation with a traditional definition for sexual relationships- man and woman.

Until your are doing that; don't boast on yourself for doing ill things.

"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves" - Abraham Lincoln

There is a greater morality in President Lincoln's words than in what you preach.  What you believe to be dysfunctional and deviant is not a view that is commonly held by all people or by all religions.  What you see as societal chaos, many see as progress.  What you call a traditional definition of "sexual relationships" is a narrowly held religious viewpoint that has no business in government discourse or the creation of civil law. 

I am extremely proud of the work I do - more proud than any other work I've done!  I am helping people, I am making a difference.  I am helping all religious organizations become stronger and I am aiding in maintaining the integrity of the founding documents of this country!  I don't come on here and preach one side of a story - I speak/type from a basis of sound education, experience, and knowledge of history. 

I love God and I love Jesus - but I serve my God and my Jesus through love of fellow humankind and charity.  I believe in the overall message of the Scripture, not in a literal word for word translation.  You are entitled to your religious views as I am to mine.  The work I do ensures none of us lose that freedom.  So, you see, I dismiss anyone who derogates my work or my faith.   ... and that's Mrs. Newbie to you.  

Why do people keep comparing the race equality with an immoral deviant sexual choice?  This is about the nasty act of the same-sex people sleeping with each other not the innate genetic characteristic what color your skin will be.

If it wasn't an immoral act or deviated behavior from what the norm is, people would not have any problems making this a right for them. 

The law has a right to curve or stop immoral conduct that cause chaos in our society or causes a negative impact.  So the moral power of the Courts and the Joint Chief of Staff must weigh the benefits of maintaining order and morality in our Army and for our citizens- Too bad Sex is the issue but it does not take presidence over morality, Order, and traditional government interest of continuing raising young children to serve in our government and armies.   

Also, Newbie,

How can you support something that God doesn't advocate?

Doesn't God, Jesus, or the Bible ill and frown upon homosexuality?  They or the bible does not preach to practice such acts.

You are confusing me on the path, faith, and works that you say you found you calling from.  

Do you honestly think Lincoln was speaking of immoral freedoms?  I think not.   We know what freedoms he was speaking on so why invoke his statement so wrongly here.

America has maintained its strenghts and stayed from the down spiral of chaos by maintaining good religious and traditional social, sexual, and family value.   There is historical proof that when morals in society become laxed and spiral beyond civil law our society spiral into chaos and have the possibility of crumbling. 

You should be able to see this correlation based on the history concerning the immoral  cause that you fight for. 

The bible also says that a man should have many wives.  That a woman who uses the lord's name shall be stoned (and not in the good way).  The bible says that slavery is acceptable, that eating shellfish is a sin, that thou shall not covet (which includes lusting after another's wife or any woman for that matter).  The bible says that it is punishble by death to work on the sabbath.  Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.  A real follower of Jesus or the bible would encourage love and repect for his fellow man.  Is there a word for religious jingoism?

By the way, you should take the Dutch as a prime example of why you are wrong.  Soft drugs are legal, prostitution is legal, and gay people can get married.  Their citizens are safer, there is less crime (no more than 20 gun deaths a year), they live longer, have a lower infant mortality rate, better health care, yet according to you their society should be unraveling.  By the way, your grammar and spelling errors are great.  Are you really a 7 year old with an over activer imagination?

First of all, you are talking apples and oranges in your first paragraph; or should I say old and new testaments.  Furthermore, your initial premise is that the Bible teaches bad things, yet your closing statement says that "a real follower of ...the bible would encourage love and respect for his fellow man."  Which of your statements should I ignore, the first of the last?

As for the Dutch, drugs are not legal, they are tolerated, the number of gun deaths does not equate to a low crime rate, and I would love to know what metrics you use to classify their health care system as "better".  I will assume that in using a comparative adjective such as "better" you are refering to the U.S. and it's health care system.  Of course they have a population of about 16M-a little less than the state of New York.

As for your criticism of others spelling, might I turn your attention to the final sentence of your post?  I seriously doubt that was sarcasm in motion.

The Bible also says in Leviticus that we should burn a bull on an altar for a sacrifice.  Wonder what the neighbors would think (Lev.1:9)?  Also in Lev.25:44 that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.  Guess I can own Canadians and Mexicans, right?  Sure would help with the yard work and housekeeping. 

Exodus 35:2 says that anyone who works on the Sabbath should be put to death.  Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?  Lev. 11:10 states that eating shellfish is an abomination.  Is it a lesser abomination than homosexuality?  Are there degrees of abomination?

Many males get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though that is forbidden by Lev. 19:27.  Should they die?  Lev. 11:6-8 says that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but can I still play football if I wears gloves?

For gosh sakes - if you want to take the Bible literally, then you had better start reading all of the Old Testament and following ALL the rules.  Nearly forgot the one that says if you curse and blaspheme, the whole town should get together to stone you Lev.24:10-16.  Can't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?  Lev. 20:14

Creston and Utahreb -- RIght on!! A Joe that Knows Better is really Joe the plumber so you'll have to forgive him his ignorance. His IQ is only two digits and he can neither spell, construct a sentence nor understand that people are actually born gay: it's not a choice. If he insists on telling the board what God is thinking then I have to ask why did God create homosexuality?? It's rampant in nature. That might be too much for his little brain to absorb. I also love the fact that Jesus lived with men his whole life and never knew a woman. What is your definition of gay, Joe?? Let's get rid of all bigotry. It's really demeaning to the human race. And Newbie, I'm with you 100%!!

MaureenO,

Instead of beating someone up because of their gramatical errors, and ragging on ppl because of where they live in the United States, how about sticking with the topic at hand.  My husband is in the Army and has been for 18+ yrs. I can assure you that he does not want to have to serve with homosexuals. The Army and Country that he signed up to serve for all those yrs. ago is most defenitly not todays, but i would have to attribute that to all the less than honorable souls that we have let into the service.

In order to serve a nation honorably you will need to have the same morals as what that nation proclaims to uphold.  This nations proclaims to uphold the Bible and in the Bible it is VERY clear on the subject of homosexuals as well as all other sorts of immoral behavior, just read 1Cor. 6:9 and 1Tim 1:10. Actually i would read 1Tim 1-10. It speaks of laws and regulations, the very thing that we are all speaking of today in one form or anther.

GOD did not create homosexuality, He gave us free will and unfortunetly we have used our free will to create all sorts of immoralities.  What Bible are you reading?  Jesus knew plenty of women. Just for example there was of course his mother, his Aunt Martha, the woman at the well, Mary Magdeline (hope that i spelled that correctly, i would not want to be bashed for incorrect spelling) whom some ppl say that he was married too, and even sired a child with for crying out loud. 

Now of course it has just occured to me that when you said "knew a woman" you may of been speaking of having never had carnal knowledge of a woman and if that is what you were speaking of then i apoligize.  But as far as homosexuals and GOD creating them, that is so far off the chart, it's completely wrong, and i urge you to read your Bible, HE would not create something knowing that HE was only going to condem it come judgement day, that just does not make sense.

I am sorry but you must be corrected ShonT.  Don't insert the Same-Sex Bigotry Argument into the strenght our country.  Our Nation and Army has been a strong Amry and Nation for over two centuries without gays serving in the Army and getting kick out if they were.

How does not allowing this open policy weaken our Army and Nation when it has been doing so great before now?  What are you talking about ShonT?

You are a moron. Gays have always been and will always be in all branches of the military. If you have served, you have served with a gay man or a lesbian. You just dont know it. My partner served in the Navy for 20 years, and was twice runner up Sailor of the Year. And nobody EVER knew he was gay. He was a consumate professional and served his country with distinction thru 2 wars. He served in fear of discovery the entire time but always thought it was worth it. He used to say that the guys that made the most anti-gay statements were the ones who" had the least to worry about". In other words, they were either the ugliest guys, or the guys with a microscopic sexual organ. Where do you fit into that, Joe?

Where do you fit in that scheme?  Were bless to be your friend rock-cracker or rock blower? 

You friend would get his clock decked and rung; that why he would stay the h3LL away from me.  He'd know that right away.  And why would I want him not to worry, wouldn't want him holding on to a prayer like he did for you.  He was your friends- they say birds of a feather, flock togehter.

Hey man, stick to making your case with your opinion on the subject matter and not about me.  Because I am not about the personal attacks, but if you gonna be swinging it can get ugly in here real fast.  But it's not what smart people do that can give a substantive point of view.

Are you smart or just a smart- burrow ??

Joe

"You friend would get his clock decked and rung; that why he would stay the h3LL away from me.  He'd know that right away"

I have read all your posts, and you sound like someone who is more afraid of being approached (perhaps you have had homosexual thoughts and are afraid) than one who really hates people with a different orientation you say you have.

Joe you are truly clueless if you think that being gay is a choice, (Differences in brain structure)

And you are even more clueless if you think there are no gay Marines!

Yeah Right, Obama Mamma-410419, about as much as you and the Devil Advocate are with the jealous cops that sleep with my girlfriend and their cop friends that are stalking men across country invading my privacy and hacking my computer on other websites.

Thing about people breaking the law even cops is that you' ll get caught one day and have to eat your SW.  Back the f*$^#$ off while you haven't been compromised. 

The issue comes in when you have a known gay person that is being disciplined, counseled or maybe even chaptered out because of poor performance overall, incompetence, or as the army calls it non-comformance to a military lifestyle.  If they are known to be gay, any lawer can make a discrimination suit stick.  Leave it at don't ask don't tell to prevent this if nothing else.   If gays get common enough that everyone doesn't automatically believe them that they were discriminated against if they say they were, then they can be open.  Until then, leave it alone.

Marriage is the business of producing children for the state to tax and govern, period! Gays are missing a fundamental benefit to the state here...They cannot naturally produce children and most gay couples don't procreate artificially!

So by that logic, people who have fertility problems, or people who don't want any children, shouldn't be allowed to get married?

Also that means elderly people shouldn't be allowed to get married, or women past the age of being able to concieve shouldn't be able to marry. And If you get married and you happen to accidently have a miscarrage you should be forced to divorce because you can't produce children. Might I ask what century you're living in mentally? If you pick up a paper and read you'll see that we're actually overpopulated, and last I checked 'must have children' wasn't part of the requirement for getting a marriage licence.