Did the Ohio firefighter deserve a six-month suspension from the band for violating decorum?

He was warned that "Military Decorum" was expected. As a firefighter, I would think he had the discipline to conduct himself in such a manner as was expected. Now he is showing he lacks accountability also, and that is exactly why he needed to be suspended. Too many people want to blame someone else when they do what they are not supposed to. Accept your mistake, learn from it and go on. There should not be "burned bridges", only learned lessons....

Military decorum is for members of the military. It should not be forced on civilians. I would like to know what lame fool decided that all of a sudden this was a 100% military parade. There were more civilians than military personnel in the parade.

This was not Soviet Day parade where everyone is required to march in lock step.

Yes, he's a firefighter, but unless he's a member of the US military, he's still a civilian. As a civilian he is not subject to military regulations.

Even with the understanding that there were to be no sudden gestures, a six month suspension is going overboard.

This parade was a civilian event. It was put on by American people, not the US military. As such, a military style punishment is unwarranted.

If military decorum is to be expected, that would dictate that when you receive an acknowledgement from the CINC, you return that acknowledgement. Can you imagine the outcry if Obama had saluted and he didn't return that?

President Obama would NOT have saluted- presumably, he knows that it would be a breach of protocol for his gesture to be acknowledged. And so, no outcry to imagine.

It would be an honor to know that the president saw your nod and nodded back. 1week suspension , not 6 months . RIDICULUS IS RIGHT!!!!

I agree ...to severe a punishment for the act.......So yell at him in front of the band, then make him "peel potatoes" for a while :)

for me it is a natural human response to acknowledge someone when eyes meet. What the firefighter did was a natural human response.

Did I miss something? Have we suddenly become a military state where humans are less than nothing? I gues if we have we could force people to march single file through the Malls instead of 5 or 6 abreast. :)

I think a lot of the people in disagreement with this are getting upset over something they don't understand. A marching band follows military decorum. I was drum major in a high school marching band, and we NEVER broke ranks for anyone. It's a sign of unity and purpose for a band. If you've never marched, then I guess it does sound barbaric, but you have to realize how marching bands work. Granted, I think he should have just been yelled at, or had to do a minor chore like tune all the bagpipes for the whole band (that would SUCK!). But you don't break ranks in a marching band. You just don't do it, even if it's the almighty Obama.

I can understand a slight nod, but the wave was way out of bounds, he knew the rules.

This was one of the most exciting days in US history and this man is being disciplined for something so petty. Gees we are just as excited in Canada, he should have droped his gear and walked over for a hand shake as eye contact was made. Then there was something for them to complain about. Congtats USA the world is in for one hell of a ride. Hang on!!!!!!!!

Double ridiculous! It seems like we have a few more importanty things on the US agenda than this. This person volunteers his time to honor our president and get crusified for it. If the president looked you in the eye...it would really hard not to acknowledge him. This is america.

That band was NOT a military band. Besides, President Obama waved at the band first, the band major just waved back. Puleease.

Wait, I thought he was in the military. He is a firefighter! Is he suspended from his job for six months? If so, that is way to insane, rules or not, hell he just nodded to the Prez. If he was suspended from the band for six months then whatever as long as he can still take care of his family and the community. He can give his free time doing something else. I don't care dem or rep if a prez waved at me I'd wave back!

He was told ahead of time not to do it, and he did it anyway. He deserved to be suspended. I wouldn't have done the same thing, and I am not a liar :)

Your comment implies that you never do anything against the rules. So you've never gone even 1 mile over the speed limit? How would you feel if you got a ticket for that? You never know what you would do until you're actually in that situation. 6 months is to harsh... It's not the real military and even they don't have as harsh a sentence for something as minor as this. I do think there should be some type of disciplinary action but this was too much.

"I" would not have broken the rules. It is incredibly rude to say that we are liars if we disagree with you. Not all of us are tactless, undisciplined losers.

ct3, there is a BIG difference between a mile over the speed limit (or even 5 over) compared to breaking decorum in a parade for the inauguration of the leader of the most powerful country on Earth. Apples to oranges.

Troy, dont be ridiculous.  It is not like he did a dance out in the street or something.  He gave the man a wink and a wave!   I think that is more respectful than not even looking at him.  Are you in the band?  I did not call you a liar.  Read it again.

ct3, my comment in no ways implies that. I have been a drum major in a parade, thank you very much. Many parades, actually. It was not a military band, but I knew better than to wave, nod, or even acknowledge anyone in the crowd. Also, Troy To You is correct: your logic makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree Baileelover... This is a VOLUNTEER in the Cleveland Firefighter's band, NOT a memeber of the Military or a Military Band! It is a military ceremony because Obama is the leader of our Military. He meant no disrespect in returning a polite acknowledgement.

This sounds more like the band leader had a standing personal issue with Mr. Coleman and used this opportunity to lash out at him. Shame on Pipe Major Mike Engle for his unprofessional response to a minor infraction of gentelman like behavior.

Paula P - Bravo and well said.

Exactly Baileelover, how could you NOT acknowledge the President? The drum major isn't just 'part of the band', he's the leader! The President looked directly at him, as the leader of the unit, and waved and nodded. All the drum major did, very discreetely I might add, is acknowlege the gesture, FROM THE PRESIDENT! I truly believe that just about anyone in that position at that time in HISTORY would have done the same thing or some variation of it. This should be a non-issue. A six month suspension is completely out of line with the disgression as far as I'm concerned. The guy just got caught up in the moment. Too bad that he felt he had to leave the band and he lost friends over this. 17 years is a long time and I'm sure he's put literally hundreds and hundreds of hours into his service to the band. It's sad. I totally support him.

Sorry mypoint, but since this is the first time we've ever heard of such a thing, it's probably the first time it's ever happened. No one in history would have ever broken decorum. It just goes to show three things: these days, people are too casual, people can't follow directions, and people blame others before taking responsibility for their actions. You can't "just get caught up in the moment."

"No one in history would ever have broken decorum."

Melodramatic much?

I disagree that EVERYONE would have done it. I would not have done it but I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with this guy doing it.

i agree that not everyone in the band should wave if they did there would be bagpipes all over the ground but i have no problem with this man whatsoever

Realy, people are going to die over a nod. Isn't this being a little dramatic. If he was a horrible firefighter he would not have been there in the first place. You're sounding as ridiculous as this situation is!

Come on now. Give it a break. I can't believe people are spending so much time on this subject and taking it sooooo seriously. Anyone in that guys position would have been caught up in the moment and that should be understood.

I'm sorry but this has gotten out of control. There are so many more important things that people should be held responsible to.

Get a life

Come on now, ain't nobody at war walking in a Presidential parade...and I've seen instances where superiors have walked their men straight to death so don't use that one. And yea get a life

You explained it perfectly Eric. Nothing more need be said.

I completely agree. In addition, as a 17 year Veteran he should have known better. He needs to set an example to newer members of the band and not set himself apart. When he joined the band he pledged to uphold prescribed standards. He gave his word and he broke his word. If he wanted to relax the rules he should have discussed it with his band first. If he was carried away by the moment that demonstrates a lack of composure and control, not a quality I want in a firefighter. He took it upon himseld to act independently and he has to pay the price and he needs to stop whining about it. Ultimaterly, it is a question of honor and character. This man may seem to have been following the rules in the past but I do wonder about his honesty and character. If I were working with this man I would not trust him or turn my back on him. I think he should have been given a dishonorable discharge from the band because he did dishonor the band. It seems that the majority of people agree with him because it seems to be a small matter of little importance. Please remember, it is the little things that count and add up. That kind of thinking has created the global mess we have today.

If he was doing CPR and stopped to wave thats one thing but he was walking down the street in a parade NO THREAT THERE! duh Bet if he saved your life as he's obviously done for others in the past being a firefighter for so long this would be as petty to you too. Thats the most HONORABLE

Eric,

As an officer (and prior enlisted) I've marched in many ceremonial "military" parades. It would seem the Drum Major is the equivalent of a squad, platoon, or section leader in an actual military parade, and would therefore be the sole individual authorized and required to acknowledge the POTUS. If anything is obvious here, it's that the Pipe Major (Mr. Engle) needs to re-visit the "decorum" standards and make the appropriate change. If you want to run your shop as if it's the military, render the proper customs and courtesies. Otherwise, allow the free expression of pride this man obviously had in our new President show, without insult to what appears to be the majority (according to this informal poll) of the American psyche. I don't believe this man's gesture caused him to trip and take out an entire pipe band, and even if it had the embarassment would have been punishment enough. Lastly, I sincerely hope that the yes votes here are not the manifestation of disappointment in the election outcome, by those who would simply be upset at anyone showing tribute to President Obama. A six-month suspension makes me very skeptical about Mr. Engle's intentions.

Yeah, well we can compare apples to oranges all day. A drum major is like a platoon leader, or the head fry cook at BK is like squad leader. Well, they're completely different. He's a civilian. Plain and simple. They should have the military march next time if they want military etiquette.

To Eric NYC,

Following orders and guidelines is necessary, no argument. But I must agree with the comments of Capt. T, who correctly understands the role of Pipe Major in establishing proper orders and guidelines. If you are correct that the Drum Major had "orders" to NOT return the President's gesture with an "eyes right" and salute, as he properly did, your vehemence should be directed at the Pipe Major, whose misconduct as an officer far outweighs that of his (in)subordinate Drum Major. If anyone is to be reprimanded here, it is the officer (Mr Engle) whose orders were in gross breach of military decorum.

First - IF this was a volunteer thing, than all of you are getting outrageous over one idiot's decision to make his break with a volunteer organization public. He doesn't HAVE to be in this group. If it was against the law for people to not be in a pipe band, then we can all sit here and say, "That guy is losing out - that punishment is too harsh" blah, blah, blah. Until it is against the law, he is not ENTITLED to ANYTHING. He should have FOLLOWED THE RULES.

Second - if he broke from this group, there is no way this was a work related thing. If it was enough of a "broken bridge" to make it this public and to leave this group, then it is a big enough "broken bridge" to quit his job for, and it doesn't sound like he did that. So he probably is not out of work nor was he in a "volunteer firefighters of _________— pipe and drum corp" as someone a few up put it.

Third - if he joined the group, he certainly decided that the rules were okay by him, especially if he'd never voiced an opinion either way. He can't now say that he didn't like the rules, and *melodramatically* "won't EVER play the FIFE AGAIN". If you don't follow the rules, there are consequences. Don't we teach our children that all the time? Why didn't he get that?

It saddens me that this is actually news. I had to read through some of these posts, because it's like a trainwreck. This poor pipe corp will get reamed because someone who thought the world should be handed to him on a silver platter made his decision to leave a public one. Having been in several marching bands (NON-military), the rules are the same. If someone is acknowledging you, no matter WHO it is, you DON'T RESPOND. That's the rule. It's about PERFORMANCE, not about military personnel. He ruined the most important performance they had. Why shouldn't he be suspended?

Amen Amanda! Finaly some perspective! Instead of worring about petty things, people should focus on issues that really impact our lives.

Not a minor issue, just another example of how most people think they are exempt somehow from rules that are set in place. From the common person on the street, to the powers that be in big business, to some of the elected and trusted leaders of this country- for the most part, we as a country are far too quick to think that the rules are there for everyone except our individual selves. And as a country, as this vote clearly shows, breaking rules is forgiveable as long as it doesn't affect us directly.

No they were not. He is the ONLY drum major.

Um, a drum major has to have a band, so plenty of people WERE in his shoes.

Um, duh. He is still the ONLY drum major.

Do you know that for a fact? Some bands do have more than one. Plus, chances are there was more than one band there...with at least one more drum major. Sorry, I'm just being a smart aleck :)

And that's why you are not wanted in the military. Stay home and whine about the rules and the way they are enacted.

He is not in a freaking military band people!!! Good Lord, it was a firefighter band.

Exactly, Suite Judy.

Thanks Baileelover A FIREFIGHTER!!! Someone who risks their lives to save lives everyday, week, year all the time unlike the military who only practices hard most of the time until a war finally starts then they go on a killing spree b/c someone told them to.

It doesn't matter what kind of band it was, it was a band, and they were performing, and as part of the performance, they were instructed not to gesture ANYONE, including the President. So... he ruined their performance, which probably was the most important one all year, because he broke the rules. HE RUINED THEIR PERFORMANCE. That's all the reason they need for a 6-month suspension.

This Guy is not in the Military!! He's a Firefighter! A 17 year veteran firefighter. He should have never been suspended. This is a complete abuse of power.

He's a firefighter in a MILITARY band. Do some research. Military bands are NOT the same as an ordinary band.

He is not in a MILITARY BAND... Do your research "No diot". It was a military parade because, duh, O'Bama is the Commander and chief, the president of the United States!!! The highest 'ranking' person in the military! He is just a Cleveland Firefighter doing what any polite person would do, returning a friendly gesture.

It was not a military band, it was a pipe and drum band in a military parade. Sounds like you need to learn how to read.

Look up what a pipe and drum band is. It's orgins are military, and while they're not exactly the same as a technical military band today, they are extremely similar. That, combined with the fact that it was indeed a miliraty parade...well, you would think he would have been able to follow the rules.

This kind of adherence to rules is sick. We are replacing judgment with rules willy-nilly. This sort of thing just breeds disrespect for authority and deservedly so. It's just abuse of authority by some limp-wristed nazi. The "decider" should be fired.

Slater and No diot,

If you are correct that the Drum Major was given "rules" to NOT return the President's gesture with an "eyes right" and salute, as he should and did, your vehemence should be redirected at the Pipe Major that reprimanded him, whose misconduct as an officer far outweighs that of his (in)subordinate Drum Major. If anyone is to be reprimanded here, it is the officer (Mr Engle) whose orders to ignore the President were in gross breach of military decorum.

"Live or die by them" seems an odd choice for a "no waving or nodding" rule. I don't think he would have broken the rules if doing so would endanger anyone.

ray dawg.dakota sounds like u need 2 go back to commie land where all u dumb extreamist bark louder than u bite. I bet u talk the talk but when it comes to walking the walk u've more than likely broken more than enough rules your self.

If you are correct that the Drum Major had "rules" to NOT return the President's gesture with an "eyes right" and salute, as he should and did, your vehemence should be directed at the Pipe Major, whose misconduct as an officer far outweighs that of his (in)subordinate Drum Major. If anyone is to be reprimanded here, it is the officer (Mr Engle) whose orders to ignore the President were in gross breach of military decorum.

Not a bad suggestion. What does the suspension say about what they represent? The elevation of pettiness to a position of nobility? We've had enough of that.

Why was he the only member to get caught up in the moment? The article said that Pesident Barack Obama waved to the entier band, why was this guy the only one to respond? I am glad he was suspended. I am also glad he quit, because it shows he has no respect for rules.

If you read and comprehended the entire article... He had eye contact with the President... Not every member of the band had eye to eye contact. That is the reason he got caught up and no one else in the band did.

Yes, President Obama waved to the entire band, but the drum major (i.e, the LEADER and perhaps "voice" of the band) acknowledged the President probably on behalf of the band. I think it was just common courtesy. Honestly, who wouldn't wave to the President if he waved and had eye contact with you? Yeah, he broke a rule, but he didn't hurt anyone, he was just being courteous.

I'm sure everyone THINKS they had eye contact with the Persident. How do we know he actually had eye contact with The President?

The other part people are forgetting is that the drum major is the only one NOT PLAYING AN INSTRUMENT!!! Perhaps that's why no one else waved, in addition to the fact that Coleman made eye contact.

I'm all for rules, as well, but let us not forget the human factor. You have to look at every situation, case by case. Life isn't black and white, even in the military, and nothing is that simple.

The whole situation would have been avoided if the drum major had done what he was supposed to anyway. Technically, he shouldn't have been looking at the crowd in the first place. His eyes should be on the band (if he's facing them) and directly in front of him if his back is to the band.

People like you who can not follow rules is why we are in this mess. Its only a simple nod, next its only a simple $800B tax payers money... Rules are in place, no matter the reason if you cannot follow them, dont get involved! I'm sure all the inmates at a max security said it was just 1 murder, i only broke the rules once. Stop making an excuse and do what is right or get ready to take the actions against you.

James, that makes me wonder if you have ever broken a rule in your life? Do you speed? Then according to your statement, don't drive.

His simple nod didn't hurt or kill anybody, whereas your examples of murderers at a prison is at the other end of the spectrum. What's next, thou shalt not nod and show respect????

James, isn't that a bit silly? A nod does not have extremely dire consequences. Nodding at someone- even when you aren't supposed to- is not the natural precursor to murder and destroying the economy.

Really, there are bigger issues out there than this. Yes, he had a minor violation of decorum, but 6 months is really too much when in a week or two nobody outside of the band will remember that this even happened.

This guy was just returning the President's wave, he was probably so thrilled he just forgot he wasn't supposed to do that. Give him a break.

A murder and a Nod? You are kidding me, correct?

It's not that a rule-breaker shouldn't drive, but that a speeder should expect to get a ticket if he/she is caught speeding. This guy should have expected to be punished for: not paying attention to his group, looking at Mr. Obama, and waving. Now he's crying about it.

If you or I did what Martha Stewart did, what would have happened to us? There can't be different sets of rules for different people, or allowances made "if you have a really good reason."

The only defense possible for this guy is for him to say that it is Mr. Obama's fault that he waved; that he looked over (for 5 seconds) only because he "knew" that the movement to his left was Mr. Obama waving (and not anyone else), and that, while he had planned on following the rules and to not make any gestures, he felt that he had to since Mr. Obama waved "to him" first. And that's extremely lame.

No worries, though. He's a rule-breaker and obese. He's the perfect American to be given a reality show this fall: he's representative of the masses. Once he's on every talk show in the country this week, I bet he gets one.

James, following the previous set of "rules" got us in the situation we're in now. As the President said, "it's time for change". All these rules and regulations don't help common man, such as this firefighter, but only people who make the rules to better themselves. I agree if this man was in the military, he should follow the rules. But he isn't. And I bet after all of you bashing him for being a common man, he'd still pull you out of a burning building to save your life!

He might be too busy looking around for the president instead of paying attention to the job he's supposed to be doing.

Well done!

Amen!

If you are correct that the Drum Major was given "rules" to NOT return the President's gesture with an "eyes right" and salute, as he should and did, your vehemence should be directed at the Pipe Major that reprimanded him, whose misconduct as an officer far outweighs that of his (in)subordinate Drum Major. If anyone is to be reprimanded here, it is the officer (Mr Engle) whose orders to ignore the President were in gross breach of military decorum.

Dude, this was a marching band, plain and simple. It was and is *not* the military. Get a grip.

"Dude," do you know what a MILITARY BAND is?

Thank you Anthony. Finally someone with common sense.

how many times does it have to be repeated? IT WAS NOT A MILITARY BAND!!!!!!! I think the guy was just being courteous and acted automatically. If someone nods and at me, or waves - I will automatically respond. Why? because my Mama taught me to be polite. Obviously, this was not a band playing in the South - we would be proud of our bandmember showing some Southern hospitality!

Go back and read the article. It was a MILITARY PARADE. If you go onto a military base or are involved in any military-based event, you must follow what you've been told. It was a rule, plain and simple. You either follow the rules, or be disciplined. He made a choice and paid the price. Get over it hippies.

Executed...really! Way to be overly dramatic. Get a life he was a volunteer. It is not that serious, it is okay do do things depending on the situation, and this situation clearly was not going to endanger anyone life so he should not have been punished so harshly. I feel for the people who are in your life because you seem like a real jerk.

Firefighting is by nature a para-military organization, and Volunteers are held to the same professional standards. As he was a 17 year member of the band, he was well aware of the need to follow the directions of the band leader. Unless he was told to "Eyes Right (Left)" he should have had his eyes straight ahead, and not "skylarking."

But, I will agree that 6 months is excessive. One month and a return to playing an instrument would be sufficient.

"Dude, this was a marching band, plain and simple. It was and is *not* the military. Get a grip." - Anthony

Anthony: Marching bands have the same rule that you are not to make gestures to the crowd while PERFORMING/LEADING A PERFORMANCE in a parade. He did, and now, he's got to suffer the consequences. Besides, how do WE know that he doesn't have a habit of this elsewhere?

Anthony, I have a news flash for ya, genius-police and firefighters ARE paramilitary groups. They refer to the rest of society as civilians, brainiac! And as such, they should be held to an infinitely higher code of conduct and face severe consequences for breaking that code.

The last order was from the President when he looked at him and waved. When someone waves smiles and speaks then it's the right thing to respond unless you're a 6 year old kid being offered candy

It is not about thinking you're better than anyone else but rather having common courtesy! People like you are what's wrong with this country, people who don't have the common courtesy or decency to act as humans and be respectful. When someone waves and smiles at you, you are to to do the same. It was nothing wrong with what he did. There is something wrong with the people who believe he acted wrongly.